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How this works
Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:23:44 -0500

I have just found out that some emails have been sent to me at
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] are not getting through.  If you sent anything to me for
the list and you didn't see it in here, or I didn't reply to it, you can be
sure I didn't get it. In the event that you don't get a reply from me, you
can try my alternative email address cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ].  And I have routinely
deleted addresses that came back if they indicated anything other than the
user's box was full; so if anyone you know isn't getting this anymore, tell
them to email me the correct info.

It has come to my attention that some people are unclear on how this list
works.  Basically this is an email message that I put together, composed of
comments made to me and my own comments and which mainly relate to
seduction.  Seduction in general is off topic for the SS list and this was
the reason I started this list.  This is what is known as a moderated list
in that all messages are sent to me, I read them and pick and choose what to
include here.  So a lot of the useless traffic is eliminated (eg. I get a
lot of compliments, but that won't help you get laid, or I get some patterns
which I think belong on the SS list and not here, or I get some rude
comments about others which I also don't think help anyone, so I don't
include this type of stuff here).  So if you see anything you want to
comment on, or if you want to let people know about a great little trick or
technique of yours to seduce someone, or if you know about something that
would interest the readers (me included) of a seduction list, then write to
me please.

Tony has sent me information about his site which has a lot of interesting
stuff.  Go to "The How to Lay Girls Guide" at

The man behind Mr. Smooth has a website full of seduction materials.  Go to
Maniac's Free Seduction Webpage at:

Mike: I was talking to someone who had trouble finding a woman, and his mate
had trouble finding a woman, and I realized that for me, I always fancy a
woman who is not single, but either married or with a boyfriend.  I found
myself saying, you know, to find the woman you want and need and deserve,
you really have to be able to take her from someone else, and keep her when
others try to do the same.  It's quite a concept.  You refer to a website
about seducing "SINGLE" women.  Whereas Major Mark writes his book about
seducing MARRIED women.  There are moral questions certainly - is it right
to steal - covet etc - from another man?  But essentially, if you cannot,
you are not a man, but a wimp.  I know, I lived as a Frustrated chump for
years, even within marriage I was not dominant, and now I find it essential
to know the manliness of being a little dominant when necessary, and how a
girl NEEDS that domination - a man she can't quite control to quote Ross J.
Today I say that being able to steal a woman from a lesser man, able not
necessarily meaning actually going about it, but able to do so, is much the
same as KEEPING the woman you feel for once you find her.  I mean I'm with a
girl half my age, and every day I feel I have to keep this girl happy and
satisfied and wanting me rather than any other man.  She has many men
interested and they try to seduce her everyday.  The point I'm making is
that although there are some women who are single and worth pursuing, the
club of attached woman seems more worth targeting. And I find myself shocked
at the lack of morality in this idea, but it is nature - we are natural and
this is how it is.

Maxin (Commenting on "if you wear scuffed shoes, it could cost you, claiming
that women make snap judgements about you based on your shoes. I find this
hard to believe, and if a woman is going to make a judgement like this, in
my book she falls into the stupid-ass flake category."  My comment is that I
have had women make decisions about me on less, so it doesn't surprise
me."):   Women will make initial snap judgements based upon many things like
this, hair cut, grooming etc. Consider it a total points system.  Most
"average" guys start off with zero points, and then everything a woman likes
or dislikes either adds to or subtracts from your point total. If you are
fortunate to be very good looking, you start out with lots of points.  If
you talk with bad tonality, you could instantly lose lots of points.
Accumulate enough points and you get what you want. Wearing unscuffed shoes
does not take a lot of time, and will earn you points before you even say a
word (with the women who care) so why not pay attention? You are responsible
for the image you project; what are you saying in the way you dress? Do you
believe it will attract the women you are after?  SS will cut across the
limitations of appearance, style, money, social standing, etc. but why add
additional work to your seduction when paying attention to minor details can
start you off positively?

My Comment:  I believe in using everything you have to accomplish your
goals, that includes appealing to all senses (your appearance, your smell,
your sound, etc.).

Maxin (Commenting on Horn Dog (Commenting on Rick's comment (paraphrased)
that women like drama, and if you don't provide it for them, then they will
provide it for you.): Rather than drama, a more fitting word might be
"passion."  Women are creatures of emotion,  and they gauge the quality of
their relations with others by the amount of emotional exchange that occurs
between them positive or negative.  Dr. Joy Browne always tells her male
callers on national radio that women would rather be loved than fought with,
but they'd rather be fought with than be ignored."):      I don't think this
is a situation where "passion" is a better word than Drama. In my life,
Passion and Drama are very different, and while I believe that Passion has a
theatrical quality in some situations and use, drama is something that I
like to avoid in my relationships. That being said, Rick's advice is
excellent, I get to avoid the drama I don't want and get to provide a woman
with the drama she craves.

Maxin (Commenting on "My Comment:  Despite your negative opinion, it seems
like this stuff isn't that bad since you say "in theory it should work" and
then go recommend some of his other products.  It seems that his tapes
didn't work for you but the products look legitimate in general.  According
to you, this may not be the best place to spend your money for this type of
product, but that's not quite the same as calling him a fraud."):  I like
Bandler's story about Subliminal tapes. Apparently he was very interested in
find out if they worked, so he used subliminal technology to record a tape
with subliminal messages telling people that they were totally worthless and
would never amount to anything, added in suggestions that they would feel
terrible. etc. Then he gave them out
telling people that they contained messages of positive attitude building
etc. People responded to his posthypnotic suggestion, and not the
subliminals on the tapes.  I used several subliminal stop smoking tapes and
they never worked, (I have since quit, but not due to the tapes) and while I
have a positive opinion about the theory, in practice, I have never seen any
positive benefit attributed to them.

Maxin (Commenting on "Rod: I was thinking today about how much better I have
been doing with women now than in the past, and what I am now doing
differently.  I think one of  the best things we can do is to stroke our
women's egos in the right way. I think this is best done by reassuring them
of their insecurities and showing appreciation for the things they put
effort into.  Even for good-looking women, lots of them are insecure about
their looks.   Tell them how beautiful/sexy they are--often. Lots of women
also worry about losing their mate or they worry that he doesn't care enough
for them.  So I'll tell them how much I like them, shit like that. For
example, I just sent a message to this one babe I know saying, "I may have
lost all sorts of money at the horse track yesterday, but I still consider
myself damn lucky for knowing you."  Let's just say that her response was
fantastic. A year ago, I  wouldn't do shit like that.  It's fucking cheesy,
wimpy, unmanly and sappy.  I swallowed that aspect of my pride and being a
wuss once in a while has
really gotten me much more trim than I did before.  I don't know if others
suffer from the same dilemma, but allowing myself to be less macho for a
couple minutes a day has made a huge difference. Bottom line: stroke those
egos.  Send those sweet little messages every now and then even if you don't
feel all that strongly.  Think of all the women who complain their
boyfriends/husbands don't say "I love you," or send flowers or shit like
that.  By doing crap like what I outlined above, you are distinguishing
yourself from those people that women complain about all the time.
My Comment: Sometimes the obvious works best.  You might pick up a copy of
Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People -- it has some very
wise advise.  Not new technology, but some good common sense. My informal
research (talking to women I am picking up) indicates that, contrary to
popular belief, there are a lot of romantic men out there.  More than we
think."):   In studies, apparently there was no difference in people's
perception of someone who provided sincere praise or insincere flattery,
apparently Major Mark was right, it all goes in.

Maxin (Commenting on "Joe: For example, they mention that if you wear
scuffed shoes, it could cost you, claiming that women make snap
judgements about you based on your shoes. I find this hard to believe, and
if a woman is going to make a judgement like this, in my book she falls into
the stupid-ass flake category."  My comment is that I have had women make
decisions about me on less, so it doesn't surprise me."):
There's a book out by Dr. Jama Clark called "What the Hell Do Women Really
Want?" and she also does seminars on this subject and how men and women can
get more people of the opposite sex in their lives.  The way you
dress...including a factor in attracting/not
attracting.  "I teach that women look at men's shoes and try to figure out
the man's social status and self-esteem by the kind of shoes he wears.
While shoes are not deal breakers for all women, they are status cues to a
lot of us.  Women agree that they do look at and judge men by their shoes.
Let's just say that to us, your shoes are clues about your affluence and
personal standards.  Some shoes just look nerdy, while other shoes spell
class.....At my men's group, where we discuss and practice these things (one
of my clients) told us that several women at work had noticed and highly
approved of his new shoes.  Are his shoes going to make a difference in
getting girls to go out with him? Maybe not, but they gave him one more
bargaining tool which he used to influence the women of his choice."
(copyright 1994..Island Flower Books).  If you really doubt the importance
of shoes to women, I have two words for you: Imelda Marcos. :)
And doesn't this go to something that was mentioned in the last post:
that men buy with logic and women buy with emotion?  The idea is to get a
sale/phone number/date/lay, and it makes sense to go with something that
works on the target.  I know I've also weeded out women for what may be
considered small smoking, tattoos, why wouldn't they treat us
the same way?  For more info, Dr. Clark's website is

Horn Dog (Comments on Rod's concerns about wuss-ness):  Romance,
compliments, and reassurance are still good things to use, AS LONG AS IT IS
NOT FROM A POSITION OF SUPPLICATION.  One can be a dark, dangerous, jerkish
type and still use romance
strategically to get what he wants.  Many operators I have watched used tons
of romance to reel an HB in, then once they have them, use
their mustache twisting dastardliness to keep them aroused.  Anton LaVey
speaks that we should give kindness only to those who make it worth our
while, and not waste in on the ungrateful.  While that's a little extreme,
it does provide food for thought.  Robert J. Ringer in his book "Looking out
for Number One," talks about "value for value relationships," where we get
what we put in, and we should eliminate from our lives any relationships
that aren't "value for value."  I think that applies well to relationships
based on supplication...get rid of them.  If you are getting enough of what
you want in return, it's ok to be generous and kind.   Ellen Kreidman's book
"Light Her Fire" is (on the surface) a guide to supplicative wussness; BUT,
when read from the SS standpoint it is an excellent guide for understanding
how women think, what they want, and why they do some of the things they do.
I highly recommend it.  On those times when romance is strategically
advisable, this is a good sourcebook.  Ellen says women are, at their core,
insecure to one degree or another.  They need continuing reassurance you
care about them and that you find them attractive.  She recommends
that each time you come through the door at home, spend about 15 minutes
just listening to her about her day.  Give her a hug.  Ellen says doing that
will almost always guarantee you hours of peace and cooperation after that.
It has worked well for me.  Ironically, toward the end she also says that
women like men who are strongly confident, not weak pushovers.

Piper: I was re-reading some old seduction messages and come across
Craig's Truth or Dare post.  Don't know how to get a hold of him so I could
ask myself, but I'm wondering: Daring the girls to kiss each other is all
well and good, but what happens if the girls dare the guys to kiss?  How
does one avoid that coming up, or deal with it if it does?

Craig Responds: Good question...I forgot to cover this!  Most girls don't
get turned on by guys kissing, but never the less, I make two rules before
every Truth or Dare game.  One, no faggot shit, and two, nothing that will
get me in trouble with my neighbors or my dad.

My Comments: Personally I kind of doubt that that would come up.  It is just
a known thing that women with women is different from guys with guys.  If it
did, so what?  You gonna kiss a guy because some woman dares you to do it? I
can assure you, there's nothing she could promise me to get that dog to

Rod: This was a damn smooth number close I pulled last night.  I can't
believe I even thought of it--drunk as I was. I was at the bar with some
buddies and we were playing pool with these three dames.  One of them split
and the other two stuck around with us until closing time.  At closing time
they kept saying, "OK, we're going to leave now!" and shit like that, but
they weren't going anywhere.  I was ambivalent about getting a number, but
they were sticking around for some reason.  So I
said, "Hey come here." I took a bar napkin and set it on the table.  I said,
"You see this?" They said, "Yes." I took out my pen and set it on top of the
bar napkin.  I said, "You see this?"
Them: "Yeah, it's a pen."
Me: "That's right, it's a pen."
Them: "What is this, some kind of magic trick?"
Me: "Yeah, it's some kind of magic trick.  Now here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to leave these here, and I'm going to turn my back for five
seconds, and when I turn back around, we'll see what magically appears on
the napkin."
Them: "Oh, you're trying to get a phone number, aren't you!"
Me: "I'm not trying to get anything.  All I'm saying is I'm going to turn my
back and count to five and we'll see what happens."
So I turned around and counted out loud: "One...two...three...four...four
and a half...four 2/3...4 3/4...4 /5...4 5/6...4 6/7...4 7/8...4
Them: "OK  you can turn around now!"
Sure enough....a phone number magically appeared on the napkin.  My one
buddy says jovially, "I hope it's not any of that 555-1212* shit."
Melissa says, "No, it's a real number!"  And then to prove it to me she
turns to her friend and says, "Jennifer, what's my phone number?"
Jennifer recites the #, but I just fold the napkin and say, "You know what,
I'm not even going to look, because I trust you."  And I put the napkin in
my pocket.
For some reason that line about not looking because I trust them really
touched their hearts and they both said, "Awwwww....&quot;
Whatever.  So that was fun. The thing I like about this approach is that
there would always something to talk about afterwards.  Even if the dame
wrote "Go fuck yourself" or something, I would still get a kick out of it.
Neat stuff.

My Comments:  Interesting, but I think the key has to be what you said and
did before you did the above.

Joseph: I have two books that you might find interesting.  The first is
Seduction by Astrology by Ren Alexander and Geraldine Rose. It has some
general descriptions about the signs but also has tactics to follow
according to the sign.  The second is more intense.  It is Women, Sex, &
Astrology by Sarah Bartlett.  It is more descriptive and uses stories
(mythology) to give insight. Some of the language and imagery may be useful
for pattern language.  It used not only the star sign (Leo, Gemini, etc.)
but the Venus and Eros signs and goes into detail in the relevance. For
instance a conflict in Sun & Venus may explain why a Scorpio isn't as
sexually free/adventurous as commonly thought.  It may be tougher to use
because you have to incorporate all 3 signs and for that birthdate and year
is necessary to be accurate (the charts are included
/directions).  It may be tougher because of women's reluctance to reveal
ages.  The author includes typical fantasies a women might have/be
stimulated by for each of her signs. I have found it to be pretty accurate
and recommend the book.  They can both be found Borders book
store for $10 (15 in Canada) for the first and $9 (10 in Canada).


cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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