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"Friends and Lovers, and that Smell"

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Friends and Lovers, and that Smell
Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:19:40 -0500

This topic emerged in one of my last posts and has spawned some very
interesting comments:

Ash: It's a good thing that you're not sleeping with your friends because:
1) It keeps things simple.
2) They are absolutely your best resource into the workings of the
female mind.  It's good to get advice off the Speed Seduction» material and
list, but I try to confirm whatever advice with my lady friends.  Think of
them as your offensive and defensive coordinators.  I've had ladyfriends who
told me to get out of relationships way earlier than I normally would've
have because they recognize things you and I normally don't in dating.
3) When meeting women I slip in the fact that my lady friend might have said
"so and so.." It indicates to them that you're not one of the AFCs (Average
Frustrated Chump) running around who clings on to any girl who's nice to
them and that you're mature enough to actually have females as friends.
4) It's also the ultimate "trump card".  At the end of a first date or
coffee, whatever, just mention the fact that you're glad "you've just
made a new friend".  Talk about frying a woman's circuits!  You usually will
not get a more shocked look on a woman's face than if you told her that
you're stealing her money and car.  This is such a pattern interrupt for
them, they begin to wonder what's wrong with them that caused you to lose
interest like that.  It's worked wonders for me.  I like being the hunted
instead of the hunter every once in a while.

My Comments: One of the key things that I want to be develop is the ability
to become the hunted, to turn around the process and every hint of how to do
this intrigues me to no end.

Ash: Now as far as asking your ladyfriends for further insight, it's a
matter of asking the right question with some presuppositions.
Example from late night coffee with Lori.
Lori: "I guess I want someone to do things with and to spend time with,
without it getting too serious, you know?"
Me:  "So, you really want some guy that you find attractive to shower
you with attention and do things with, maybe even sleep with every so
often to keep from getting bored, but not have him be needy?"
Lori: "I didn't think of it like that, but that is exactly how I feel."
The key to this dynamic is to differentiate between your ladyfriends.
On the one hand you have ladyfriends who are convinced that the only reason
you're friends with them is because you secretly like them.  Personally I
avoid these. On the other hand you have the kind of ladyfriends who look out
for you because they are truly are your
friends.  A perfect example would be my good friend KJ, who gave me a
package of condoms for Valentine's Day, saying that she fully expected me to
use them by the end of the month!
-Speaking of KJ, it was exactly this time a year ago that I was truly
nutty over this other girl, which surprised me to no end because at that
time I was in an environment where I was literally surrounded
by beautiful women all the time.  I was talking to KJ about this, how I
could be totally nonchalant with beautiful women coming on to me, yet how
this one girl made me feel needy.  Her advice was for me not to call for a
while and let it be known to this girl I really like that I was seeing other
women.  I did not follow her advice and things did not go the way I hoped.
Lesson learned.
-Get photographs of you and your ladyfriends and place them all over the
place.  It does the same thing as talking about your ladyfriends.  It
conveys the subtle message "I am used to being around and interacting with
women.  You are going to have to be extra-special for me to actually want

My Comment: I am curious, for example, how you maintain the balance once you
have told them about them now being a friend to where this gets back onto
the male/female path."

Ash: Remember to fight an enemy effectively you need to
truly understand their way of thinking and work according to that
model.  Not that women are the "enemy", but you get the idea. In other
words, you're thinking like a guy, which of course is to be expected.
*According to our model of the world (men) only sensitive faggot type guys
have ladyfriends. Real men fuck every woman they can get their hands on.
Don't operate from this perspective.
*According to a woman's model of the world, a man who has ladyfriends is
highly admirable and desirable. Do you know how many women tell me that they
are secretly in love with a male friend of theirs?  Too many for it to be a
coincidence. I believe it's because these guys are nice to these women
without overt interest, which is something the female mind cannot process.
*According to the female model of the world, a guy "friend" is someone they
will serious consider dating later on.  You have Speed Seduction» to
covertly arouse these passions. Do you honestly believe things are over when
a women says she just wants to be friends? Not even close.   *It shifts the
power dynamic tremendously.  Women assume that they are operating from the
position of power and they are right.  By assuming friendship early on, this
dynamic is destroyed or at least balanced out.  *If you assume friendship
right away, operate from that mindset, use SS to fan the flames, and act
uninterested/nonchalant but still warm, funny, CONFIDENT/COCKY, you will be
pursued.  They will start asking you to do things, they will start asking
you what you look for in a women, etc.  This is the women's idea of pursuit.
Remember they are operating
from their model of the world. I'd say a few weeks to make the
transition from friends to actual dating.
Further thoughts:
-Assuming an atmosphere of friendship quickly installs the feeling of
safety which makes SS even more powerful.
-Operating from the friend mindset allows you to avoid the "poverty
mentality" and be more laid back.
-You automatically become a challenge
-Comments in the middle of a conversation "...let's say you had become
extremely lucky and we were dating..." works wonders at the appropriate
-Being friends allows you more time to assess a woman.  If a woman seems as
desirable to you a few weeks after knowing her, then all the better.
-Don't convey neediness or let yourself be taken advantage of by any
woman, even your friends.
-By all means, avoid giving or even thinking the hint the only reason
you're being friends is because you intend on fucking them later on.
-This will sound odd, but I truly believe that women are able smell
other women on you.  Do your best to hang around women as much as possible.
Please dont' operate from the logical, male model of the world
when concerning women.  Don't take the majority of what a woman says as to
what she actually means.  For better info on the feminine psyche, read any
relationship book written by a woman. Selectively read for info on what a
women wants, then think of how you can use SS to fulfill those desires.

My Comments:  (Regarding Lori) This young lady was pretty honest with you.
Most, in my experience, will not admit to being interested in sleeping with
someone on a casual basis. If it happens, that's one thing.  But spell it
out... that's another.
(Regarding "The key to this dynamic are to differentiate between your
ladyfriends")  This is very true.  You have women who have different
mindsets about these things and this often throws me for a loop.  I met this
HB in my Yoga class that I had this great energy thing going between us.  I
got her number, called her up on a Sunday morning, and in the course of the
conversation she mentions that her husband is still asleep.  When I was
getting ready to end the conversation I said to her, "Well, I was going to
suggest getting together but I didn't know you were married."  She goes,
"well, that doesn't preclude anything." My own limiting beliefs getting in
the way.
(Regarding "Her advice, don't call for a while and let it be known to this
girl I really like, that I was seeing other women.  I did not follow her
advice and things did not go the way I hoped. Lesson learned.")
It seems that the obvious is hitting us in the face and we just need to
recognize it.  Do we need a better example than Clinton, who, repeatedly
cheating on his wife has become a major sex symbol in the U.S. with women
everywhere professing how they would sleep with him in "a NY minute"?  I
have previously expressed fascination with the Clinton phenomenon, about how
women (who I have naively grown up expecting to be dead set against
cheating) have found his activity alluring and desirable.  Being in Canada,
unless I look for it I don't see as much propaganda on this as you would in
the U.S., but this aspect seems to me to be constantly underplayed or even
unnoticed in most of the articles and stories I have seen and read about
(Regarding "According to the female model of the world, a guy "friend" is
someone they will serious consider dating later on.)
This I definitely don't agree with.  There are guys that they have as
"friends first" who are being tested and toyed with that may be turned into
lovers in time (at least this is what they say; personally I don't want to
know from a woman I am interested in who tries to keep me at arms length).
The other "friends" usually are interested in them and they aren't
interested in the guys.
(Regarding "This will sound odd, but I truly believe that women are able
smell other women on you.")
My friends here and I all believe the same thing.  I would like to explore
this further.  Every guy I know who has success with women seems to think
that women smell when you have just made love to a woman and I think that it
is something we need to get more opinions and ideas about.

Ray: I also used to believe that you can't sleep with your friends.  Until
an NLPer said to me, so who the hell do you sleep with? Strangers? Your
enemies? Your family? Boy that was a revelation to me. I mean, who do you
treat better, more honestly, work harder to please? Your friends, or your
I've been sleeping with some of my friends who saw the sense
in that on and off on a very friendly, take it or leave it,
we can but we don't have to basis and it's worked great for
me so far.

Steve: One of the things I've found very effective in dealing with a woman's
reluctance based on her fear of not seeing you again is time distortion. It
doesn't have to be much or even really complicated. I simply send them into
the future and have them remember all the
wonderful times we've had together, just like Ross Jeffries presents in the
Basic Home Study Course (original version).
Of course the advantage to your approach is that it puts the cards out
on the table and a lot of women will look at that as a challenge. Not
a bad place to be. A lot of women in their late thirties and early forties
have been screwed over so many times, their defenses are really up, so for
me, the time distortion is a sure-fire strategy.

My Comments: I use time distortion all the time.  Perhaps I should have
mentioned it but it wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make.  The
point really was that if they felt you weren't going to disappear on them,
they would probably be more agreeable to surrendering to you.
Which is the effect that time distortion aims for, I guess.
Frankly, I find that women in their 30's & 40's are a lot more open than you
are saying.  By then, they know what most men are like but they are so horny
at that time of their lives that they figure they have to deal with some of
it (and usually they will be receptive to a man they feel has sort of met
them halfway, one who has some polish and not just obviously looking to nail
them and then dump them).
One thing that I have found is that individual techniques (eg. time
distortion) seem to work magic with some guys and have less of an effect
with others.  My experience has been ok with it, but not as effective as
your description of it seems to be.

Personal Note:  I will be attending the Speed Seduction» seminar in Los
Angeles at the end of January.  Those who are or will be in L.A. at the time
are encouraged to let me know, perhaps we can trade some war stories or go

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Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



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Comments on this product from Tony B.:
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