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"Dating and seducing"

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Dating and seducing
Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:28:11 -0500

It occurs to me that changes such as (for the first time) sleeping with your
friends (see Ray's comments below), having or a threesome, wife-swapping or
other activities where we move our comfort zones, we open our minds up to
new possibilities, new experiences, to be able to explore the concept that
you can make your fantasies your reality, that you can take that step and do
those things that you only dreamed of before take courage.  And it takes
courage to make that leap in everything.  Most men, when they first
approached a woman, had to face their fears, insecurities and negative self
talk to force themselves to take action.  And so it is with every new
challenge, where you have to do what is uncomfortable, what is out of your
ordinary experience in order to go after the things you want.  And you don't
know what will happen; maybe your girlfriend will be turned on when you
propose a threesome as opposed to take offense that you would bring someone
else into your private intimacy.  Maybe that reserved appearance of that
attractive woman is just a cover to wild tigress who worries that she may
appear too easy or hungry.  In fact, the more I learn the more I think that
women are as eager to seduce men as men are to seduce women, it's just that
most men don't go after them in a way that lets them express this.  Instead
of thinking the negative, we should think of the positive.  Lately I find
that when I am out with intelligent women the subject of limiting beliefs
comes up (I guess because it is on my mind a lot lately).   I know that I
still deal with my own limiting beliefs which I am aware that I allow to
prevent myself from obtaining everything I want out of women and
relationships.  And these e-mails document part of my journey to break free
from my own hesitations and limitations while learning about women and
myself in the process.

Recently I was out at a bar/restaurant where I ran into Carol, a very
intelligent young lady who does business consulting and who I had introduced
to some people who engaged her for some work.  This kind of changed our
relationship slightly from personal to business. I have known Carol for
about 10 years and when I had met her we went out once or twice.  I remember
getting her back to my place, we were sitting on the bed and I made a move
to kiss her.  She laughed.  Clearly this was not working and I never dated
her again and had been out of touch with her for a long time up until about
6-8 months ago.  Things clearly had changed and I could see that she was
looking at me differently.  But at the bar/restaurant about a week ago, she
was there with and so introduced me to her sister.  While Carol is not bad
looking (I am sure most guys reading this would find her quite attractive),
her sister is definitely hot.   To be honest, I take a perverse pleasure in
sticking it to Carol because she had laughed at me even though I know that
we are both different people today and I shouldn't do that.  So I have this
very warm, intense conversation with her sister who gives me her number.
The problem with her sister is three fold: one, she is divorced with three
kids; two, she's too old (my age, 42) to get involved seriously with because
I would want a family if I got that serious with someone (and not someone
else's); and three, she's too intelligent and wise about relationships which
makes her dangerous and I don't want to get roped in because of reasons one
and two.  I have a friend who met a woman (I started up with her and a
friend of hers on the street at the beginning of last summer, he went out
with her and I went out with her friend) who has two kids and who is of a
different religion (his family would have a very hard time with this) but he
got deeply involved and is struggling to get out of it and I don't want to
get into the same situation.

So I am internally debating with myself as to how far do I want to take this
with her sister.  I decide to try and just close the deal and keep my
perspective on things, so I call her up and invite her over for Tuesday
night.  Tuesday is the one night she can't make it, so, pretending to check
my agenda, I suggest Wednesday night which she agrees.  I tell her to just
come over and we'll talk and get to know each other.  Wednesday night I
speak to her and she agrees to come over for 8:30.  At 9:30 she calls me up,
very upset that as she has thought about it she is very uncomfortable with
what's going on with me.  Firstly, the business of checking my agenda as if
I was squeezing her into my schedule bothered her.  She doesn't date very
often and when she does she wants it to be special and I made it like a
business appointment.  Then, I had the nerve to invite her over to my place
for a first date.  She thought I was a gentleman, not a womanizer (which she
defined as a man constantly in search of a parent replacement, looking for
something that isn't real, etc.).  And I insisted on it (she had asked me if
I was sure that that was what I wanted to do and I said yes; this was not
insisting in my book but I didn't argue with her).  Not to offer to take her
out for a drink or a coffee, to pick her up, nothing.  Well I listened to
all of this and never admitted to anything.  I said, "What did you think?
Did you think I was going to invite you over to my place and then seduce
you?"  I made comments to the effect that she ought to get real, that she
isn't getting me that easily.  And it is true because even though she is
very attractive, I am hesitant about getting roped in here and I believe my
hesitation is part of the attraction to her.  I am sure that most guys chase
her for her looks (she in fact confirmed this to me when we did go out
finally last night) and are only interested in nailing her.  In the end she
calmed down and started to wonder if she had jumped to the wrong conclusions
so she suggested we get together and we made plans for Friday night (last
So I drop by my neighborhood flower shop and buy her a red rose before I
pick her up.  This shocked the hell out of her ("So you are romantic, after
all" she says) and I took her to the local Sheraton for drinks in the lobby
bar (this is a very nice place).  She did a lot of the talking and spoke
freely about her sexuality, her life, her having never completely
surrendered herself in a love relationship, etc.  The conversation went
extremely well and was quite deep and I could tell she was interested in
some affection when we were leaving (when they stand so close to you that
you almost have to ask for room to breathe, the odds are pretty good).  So I
was warm but to a degree kept my distance and at the end of the date as I
left her off she hinted about speaking with me again which I just didn't say
anything about (I wanted to leave her wondering if I would call again).  She
kissed me on both cheeks but leaned into the first one in such a way that I
could have made out with her but I didn't take the bait as I have to make
her pay for thinking that I was anything other than the best thing that
could ever happen to her.  Stay tuned for further developments.

Seduction Resources:
Here's another web site address which tells
of When Two Worlds Collide (An Unbiased Survival Guide to Dating and
Relationships) which is a 240-page soft cover book that takes a humorous
approach to explore all facets of dating and relationships, including
differences between men and women; various personalities roaming the earth;
the initial encounter; the first date; beyond the first date; when things
don't workout; relationship hurdles; the break-up (two sides to every
story); and more.

Bill:  A book suggestion: "Bluff your way into astrology" By Alexander C.
Rae.  Seems the HB's are asking me what my sign is. This book also includes:
Astrology, Chinese Astrology, The Tarot, I Ching, Palmistry.  Its a small
book 62 pages. The beginning of the palmistry says "Reading palms is the
ideal method for a flirt. No other skill allows you to take attractive
members of the opposite sex into a quiet corner at a party, hold their hand
for 20 minutes and whisper in their ear."

Len: (Commenting on my comment that 'It helps if you are interested in this
purpose (in other words, if you work as a waiter, or a baker, or whatever
that you be passionate about it and ambitious, with plans to improve your
situation whatever they may be) rather than just doing your time.  In my
experience, ambition is admired by women)The above is valuable to me.  One
of the female flirting experts (I forget who) said that when someone asks
you about your job on first meeting, that is your greatest opportunity for
you to share with them who you really are, and thereby incite their
interest.  Now, on two recent occasions I met women casually, who asked what
I thought
about my job.  Not wanting to fake enthusiasm, I opted to stay congruent by
replying "oh, it's OK".  In each case, I knew I'd missed an opportunity, but
still wasn't sure how to both stay congruent and convey what the woman
expected.  Well, I think I know now what to do, talk less about the job and
more about plans to improve my situation just as you described.

My Comment:  I usually take any expression of interest by a woman as a
positive sign.  Notice how sometimes they will never ask you anything about
yourself; in these circumstances the interest level you hold to them appears
to me to be minimal.  While this can be turned around, when they ask you
questions you are ahead of the game.

Ray: (Commenting on: "I am of the opinion that you are pretty lucky that
these friends of yours are able (at least temporarily) to have the attitude
necessary to engage in and sustain this type of relationship" which was a
comment I made on his sleeping with some of his friends) I don't think luck
has anything to do with it. I think what did it was firstly, for me to
change my mind about the whole thing and conceive of it as being possible in
the first place.    Ross said: "I think the female mind has a hard time
trusting this kind of thing..once they absorb it and see it is true it
creates a trance like state of a model that has been stretched...."  And
then obviously I must have had the courage to broach the subject; and my
friends must have had their models stretched to even consider it, and then I
tried it with one of them, and lo! and behold! our relationship was fine in
the morning, a few awkward moments, then we talked about it and sorted it
out.  I offered it as an experiment and without pressure - and it turned out
they were just as intrigued as I was.  Do remember though we're talking long
standing friendships here. This doesn't lend itself AS IT STANDS as a chat
up line, or a approach on the first date. However, what it did do for me was
to make me far, far more relaxed with new women! which in itself was worth
the whole idea. And perhaps, you never know, they can sense the other
women's aura in mine (as I do tend to shower before going out :-)

My Comments:  I remain curious and interested in how people move from
friends to lovers and maintain the friendships.

Vinigarr: How to minimize being sabatoged by other men.
You must build strong rapport thru mirroring and matching and build deep
interest by asking questions about herself. At some point you must create a
world for the 2 of you, something only you and her share a personal
confession based on what she told you and the feeling you want her to have
like "could I tell you something, I mean just between me and you,  when I
feel comfortable and enjoy speaking to someone its like you want to allow
this connection to grow more" while whispering in her ear. Speak softly so
she has to get close to you. Make sure your touching her to anchor the good

My Comment: Good points.  The only difference between what you were talking
about and the situation I mentioned is that the move to talk into her ear
was done before a connection had been established.  Some guys are able to
create that "instantaneous connection" but for me I find that it takes
awhile for her to really feel connected to the point where she will keep out
distractions from friends and other men who may try and step into the

Vinigarr: **Then you must move her to another location ** this is soooo
powerful.  Something like "you know I have this amazing intuition about you
that you will find sooo interesting, lets go over there" lead her by the
hand (fire the anchor) to that location. When you've led someone to another
location I think the brain thinks
"we went somewhere together, I was ok, safe, interesting, it will be ok to
do it again (the coffee date) plus it feels like you're doing something
different AND it keeps the other guys away. Most of the time the new
location is the opportunity to go for the kiss.

My Comment: I found this out years ago.  It is really amazing how, for
example, if you are in a club and you say to her, "you know what, come over
here for a second" or anything which gets her to move from one place to
another with you.  It's so effective it's scary, magical.  You wonder what
is the power behind such a simple move.  Clearly leading a woman shows her
that you are the man, the person who she starts to look up to as knowing
what he's doing and where he's going.


cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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