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"Here’s the rub"

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Here’s the rub
Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:55:07 -0500

I will be in Toronto March 4th through 8th attending the Tad James Seminar
on the 6th & 7th (probably will also be taking the optional "Huna" day on
the 8th as well).  I am planning on going out most nights I am there so
don't hesitate to contact me if you are in Toronto and would like to meet.

Hardwood: I currently have a challange. After the Atlanta seminar in August
I practice ss on anything wearing a skirt like I was told.  Here's the rub:
I met this widow  35, a 5 on a good day, ran pattern after pattern, ss
language,etc...., she's  totally gaga over me. However, she's not the
problem, she has a 24 year old sister that is a stunner and she's my true
goal.  She will kiss me but nothing else because she knows how crazy her sis
is over me and feels guilty. I've tried to battle this with multiple sexual
patterns, but no luck, her damn sister's feelings are paramount.  Any

My Comment:  Find her sister another guy.  Other ideas out there?

Tony: Another more books for your list (I'm reading it now, I'll report back
what I find): LoveTypes (ISBN 0380800144)  by Alexander Avila 1999 Avon
Paperback, US$13.50.  You must have an extensive list of resources by now.
I hoped you wouldn't mind posting what you have come across thus far, so I
can add what I have in addition.

My Comment: I have a sort of collection of How to Pick Up Women books dating
back to when I was a teenager.  I have some really old, out of print books
in boxes at my parents' house that I really have to dig out and write about
one day.

Tony:  I have read the Love Tactics I & II and found some helpful stuff, but
found most of it supplication material.  It's still interesting to see what
the rest of the world is reading.  The main lesson from all this is what
Ross taught:  resetting the frame to allow SS to work, rather than forcing
SS to work in the dating frame.
I like to also study beyond Ross' stuff and am an avid reader.  Ross' stuff
is excellent and I want to absorb even more than SS.
I didn't get to meet you when we were in LA in January.  Maybe at a future
seminar, perhaps.

My Comment:  Sorry to have missed you in L.A.  I am always trying to get to
Ross's seminars if I can coordinate with everything else going on.  So if
you are at one, ask around if I am there and I would be more than happy to
meet anyone reading this.

Bill: I just came across this book "Never Be Lied To Agian" by David J.
Lieberman.  Sounds interesting. I read some of the reviews on amazon.  In
your sargying have you had much problems with lying HBs? Finding out if they
are lying out to you I think would make it easier to call them on their
shit. Or even possibly change your tactics in the seduction process.
According to this book you can know through the language that is being
used. Much like ss'ing an HB via structured use of the language. With proper
use of the language one can detect deceit.  Whats your opinion?

My Comments: Very interesting topic.  Actually, my ex, when I met her, lied
to me about absolutely everything and I found out about each and every lie.
For some reason, I ignored these warning signs as if there was a higher
purpose for me to get to know her.  Normally I would run when this happens,
but this time I didn't.  I guess overall I am better off for having known
her and am still close friends with her.  But that was the first and only
time I pushed beyond the warning signs.   As far as general sargying goes, I
usually don't run into the lying part too much.  I usually run into interest
or non interest.  How do you know someone is lying to you when you just met
them?  Most of the things they will tell you you can't verify at that
moment.  It is only after getting to know them that you find these things
out, I would think. But I find that if you listen carefully, people will
tell you everything you want to know which they may not necessarily have
wanted to tell you.  Ross says that you can find out everything before they
even open their mouths but I am not sure I fully comprehend that one.  But
when you listen, it is amazing the stuff that comes out of people's mouths.

Len: My friend can date 4 women at once because he gives them what they
need.  Even at 16, this guy was very successful with women and often enticed
and slept with women in their mid-20's.  He says they come to him "to be

My Comment:  He's right.  Women are turned on when you not only give them
what they need but tell them you are dating other women, and can be shocked
and excited when you let them know that they can date other guys (it isn't
realistic to tell them that you can go out with other women and then expect
them not to go out with other men.  The nice thing about it though is that
if you treat them the way they want to be treated, they have no interest in
other men and you get to have your cake and eat it too).

Bill (Commenting on my observations about talking to a woman when she is
with a guy): With my limited time I have had the opportunity to try some
stuff in front of a couple of borefriends. You can be covert with what you
are doing as most people won't pick up on your hand gestures, as you link
all the good stuff to yourself. However, in one situation I did say "as you
move away from these things" gesturing to the borefriend. He did ask for
clarification. I reasured him that I was speaking about working too much.
This other girl I had a chance to elicit her values. So when I invited her
to lunch on a whim on Valentines Day, she accepted and then showed up with
the borefriend. Ok, so I took control of the conversation it was mostly her
and I talking. Toward the end he pissed her off, he hadn't notice what she
was wearing the other day. Well she just starting working over some
pineapple. A metaphor for him, I realized, but he didn' pick up on this. So
I pointed it out to him. Then I told her that you know that someone has deep
RESPECT for you when they understand these subtle actions. Anyway, the
unspoken message is I respect you and he dosen't. She understood it. This
one girl I will keep working on. I also have learned that most guys have no
idea how to please a
girl. And girls to fall into relationships by default as well. When I see
this I consider the girl Fair Game.

Bill (Commenting on "Stumbling a bit on your words helps a lot in making it
sound genuine, not like you are real slick and do this all the time.  Make
it sound like you are making up what you are saying on the spot): I remember
him talking about this at the seminar and used it with Savanna, the girl
waiting to swing at the hotel.

My Commen: I was racking my brain to remember her name for some reason.
This was at the hotel of the L.A. SS seminar; the Saturday evening the
conference rooms were the site of a swinger's party and there was a parade
of couples going in there with some extremely hot and wildly dressed women.
Savanna was waiting in the lobby for her "date" to show up, and a few guys
from the seminar (Bill in particular) started talking with her.  She was
hot.  I don't know if Bill noticed, but she first distanced herself from him
when she mentioned that she was waiting for her "friend" to show up,
implying that it was a date.  But as the conversation continued, she
mentioned that she hadn't seen him in six months (so she calls him to get
together for sex).  Perfect example of you should never assume things when a
woman is with a man -- this one was only with this guy to be able to get
into a swing party and trade partners.  Go figure.

Bill:  I'm not sure that I want to stumble on my words a bit.

My Comment: I find that this is a good technique to stop and collect your
thoughts for a moment.  It also makes what you say sound more genuine, not
like you were ready to recite something.

Bill:  It might not be hypnotic. So what I do is to focus her attention
inward and use with tonality and pauses. Seems more and more that I am going
into state myself when I do this. And the words begin to flow more easily.
Like I said I was caught off guard recently when I easily tranced out a
couple of girls.

My Comment:  Same thing happened to me the first few times I did it.  You
have her in the palm of your hand and you are so amazed it happened that you
just don't know what to do with it.  If you can't think of anything, you can
always point out that she may enjoy a newd irection for a change.

Bill: I did that the other day. And take it deep inside youself. I think I
have her anchored to go into trance when I use trance speak. My term for
tonality, pauses, quiet voice and inward focus.

Bill's niece Buffy has a friend Inga who claims to be gay (I suggested that
she may be bi but he will need to find that out) who is into nude modelling
and is going into a business venture which has her putting on a party where
she is looking for bi women. I suggested to Bill that he tell her to put
some ads on the Telepersonals or other phone line systems.  There are a lot
of bi women on there.  She could also record an ad for you, one saying that
she and her borefriend are looking for a women, etc.  I think you would get
some surprising results.

Halbster: (Commenting on what to say to a woman when you are telling her
that you date other women): Another approach is acknowledging that you're
with a lot of woman because you enjoy being with them, but what you'd like
most of all is to find one woman who so totally delights you and gives you
everything you want, everything you need that you choose to give her 100% of
your energy, focus, and passion and devote your mind/body, heart & soul to
"And, when a woman can really BLOW ME....Away and satisfy me like that I
will be happy to give her everything you could ever want."  Sally, you can
feel that (touch her) can you not.

Halbster (Commenting on whether to approach a woman who is with a guy):
Generally, I agree with Rick.  There are enough HB's so that I don't need to
chase after the ones with someone else.  And, even if the dude isn't the BF,
he may be an aspiring BF and I don't want to interfere.  However, there are
times when I will make an exception.  ie when I sense the woman is waiting
to be rescued, or the guy is an asshole.  Sometimes having the guy there is
an advantage.  It shows more google/confidence and it communicates certain
other things.

Halbster (commenting on: "That is why I will only spend time with people
that are interesting. There has to be something really special about this
person." This comes across as being pretty arrogant)  No, this isn't
arrogant.  You are paying people you choose to spend your time with a
compliment.  You're also stating I'm busy and I don't have time for people
who aren't going to make it worth my while.   This is the perfect balance.
It shows that you respect yourself.

Marcus Surrealius: I took a couple of one-shot seminars from Leil Lowndes on
non-verbal communication and body-language. I think of her work as a mixed
bag. All of it works, but Speed Seduction» works better in most if not all
cases. She specializes in corporate management and sales training, so go
figure.  Examples:
Folks generally position their hands such that their palms face you when
rapport is happening. Similarly they will show you their knuckles when
rapport isn't happening. When a woman crosses her legs at the knees, it's
not a bad or good sign. If she crosses her legs at the knees but with a
small gap between the knees,
however, that means she starting to get a bit hot and bothered. A little
fidgeting with the foot is an even better sign. When a man approaches a
group of women, one of his feet will be pointing at
the one he wants most.
Lowndes will give advice on how to approach a woman at a party or coffee
shop or wherever, but the Speed Seduction» methodology works much better.
Lowndes says you have to make eye contact once and see if she makes eye
contact again within forty-five seconds before she'll respond favorably to
your approach. Utter supplicating bullshit. I've done it; it doesn't help.
Lowndes also teaches that what you say isn't nearly as important as how you
say it. While this is true to some extent, she takes it to mean that you can
just flap your lips and get whatever you want as long as you have the right
tone of voice. She is missing a lot of potential by ignoring what exactly
you want to say. Her teachings generally fit into the dating model/framework
anyway. She mentioned NLP once, but she talked about it as if the most
powerful techniques NLP has to teach are mirroring and eye access cues.
Good stuff that I have used to round out the SS material. I think you'll
probably find her book helpful though not earth-shaking.

My Comment:  I think one of the big differences between Leil's stuff and SS
is that SS is created by a man who has had all the difficulties most guys
have had in getting women.  Leil is an attractive woman who has found a few
tricks that work well; but she can't relate to a real difficult case, I
think.  I read her book and while there are some good stuff in there,
there's no way I would conclude that this book alone would guide a socially
challenged, unattractive looking guy to making any woman fall in love with
And I don't know about you, but the examples you mention aren't
earthshattering signals.  When a woman puts her hands on your lap, winks at
you and licks her lips, then you have a strong sign of invitation.  I think
most of the other stuff is preliminarily positive indications, but not
enough to consider as guarantees of success (if you don't do anything stupid
after).  Ross also teaches about the effect of how you say something and how
it can be extremely important (I remember the "Mary had a little lamb"
exercise, where how it is recited can create all kinds of ideas in someone's
So she is not necessarily wrong about this.  I think most women have love
and/or sex on their minds and if you can lead their thoughts to that place
in their mind (even if you do it by reciting business statements in a
seductive manner) they will think those thoughts.  I think this is a great
technique for many guys who have a really hard time crossing that barrier
from the impersonal to the personal.  This is something most people have
difficulty with; where you go from talking about the weather to expressing
an interest in someone in a more direct manner.  If you can do it without
compromising your position, I know that most guys would prefer that over
taking a chance of being rejected.  I don't think in those terms anymore,
but I remember how I used to feel.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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