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"It’ll lead you to do ghastly things"

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It’ll lead you to do ghastly things
Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:43:30 -0500


Some more news about Major Mark's seminar:  Co-training with Mark will be
Steve Piccus (whom many others have been known to comment on with the words
"that dude's out of control!"), who I have hear about from Eben, Rick and
others and who is supposed to be an experience like few others.  The early
rumour mill has it that Poetdude will arrive in town to take the seminar and
entertain the local women with his sequined hat.  Here are a few words on
the seminar from Mark's latest newsletter:

Awakening Unafraid in Montreal $795 May 9-13
We've been conditioned to lead our lives in fear - fear of "what if?", fear
of success, fear of failure, fear of seeming different from others, even
fear of being afraid!  It's time to set yourself free, and it all begins
with 5 days of powerful hypnosis in Montreal.  I'll be joined this time by
Master Hypnotist Steve Piccus for an astonishing romp through life as we see
it - more like an uproarious carnival than an object of dread!  Imagine 5
days of stories, digressions, exercises, examples and inductions -- all
weaving together the thoughts, beliefs and actions of your new relaxed and
confident self.  Imagine all that you will accomplish once you get out of
your own way.  Once you've absorbed all the "Steve-ness" and "Mark-ness",
it's the rest of the world that will be fearful!
For more info, go to


Linda commenting on Sisonpyh
> You can have any fucking thing you want in your life. if you're
>willing to figure out how to get it, and you're willing to work hard, kick
>and pay the price. Everything else is bullshit.

I have nothing but admiration for this guy...he really did his homework! I
can't speak for all women but my opinion is that he's pretty right on. I
think the hardest part of it for many guys is giving up some deeply
ingrained yet limiting beliefs about themselves and about what they will and
won't do to get the kind of women they really want.


Jeff wrote about challenges with getting college babes phone numbers.  It's
been a while since I've been on campus; however, I think maybe I can help.
1) COLLEGE CAMPUSES ARE DIFFERENT -- at least if it isn't a
commuter/suitcase campus.  People expect to run into each other again.
People also feel safer handing out numbers to fellow students than they do
handing out numbers to strangers in the big city.  I think your approaches
were designed more for meeting a total stranger than someone who is part of
a common community.
2) YOUR 2 APPROACHES:  In fact, on a college campus "what has to happen for
us to talk again" might even have one of the following affects
(supplicating, seem like a stalker type, seem desperate, seem overly
aggressive about it, or overly formal).  I think you'd be better off saying
"You're interesting. Let's talk again because this is fun."
Your other approach "I'd like to talk to you again without distractions"
has a few subtle flaws.  First the emphasis is on "I".  They don't care so
much about what you want.  What is it that they want.  Thus, I flipped this
  Let's (This is a "WE").  Your primary goal is to just talk again.  If she
  likes you she'll help you to find a place without distractions.  There is
  need to mention distractions.   These distractions probably don't exist in
  her mind.  They probably existed in your mind because your focus on
seducing her was causing you to view other people as
distractions/interference.  She was probably comfortable there.  Having
people around might even give her a necessary feeling of safety.  The idea
that you don't want them around sends the message to her "I better put my
guard up because he wants to jump my bones or something."  Distractions is
also insulting her by saying she didn't have your total attention.
deleting lots of numbers because they don't fall into the pickup/sarge
classification.  You probably have phone numbers for many friends.  How did
it happen?  Exchanging numbers should be natural just like that.  i.e. This
was fun, wasn't it?  Let's get together later.  What's your number?  Or even
give me your number AND I'll call you.  (Here I think the "AND helps kind of
like a preconditioned "because" response ala Cialdini).
  4) ALTERNATIVES TO GETTING NUMBERS -- However, there are much better ways
than going for the phone number.
A) Talk to her and find out where she lives.  Not only is this easy and
natural to do, but also it will make getting her number easier.
B) The best thing to do is plan an activity together.  You can arrange to
meet her to do something fun.  A common activity can eliminate the need for
her number and/or make getting her number easier.
C) You can also create a need for her to talk with you again i.e. get her
curious -- unanswered question -- something she wants and needs to contact
you in the future to get.
Another approach can be used when she gives you that "I'm always here"
response that you mentioned.  Rather than seeming desperate and wanting
her number so badly (the impression I got from your post), you can take away
the opportunity.  i.e. This was a lot of fun. Too bad we're probably not
to see each other again.
Her: "What do you mean?"  "Well, you know how it is you meet people all the
time,  have great conversations and bond, but then that is it.  At least,
that happens to me because I'm really busy" (adding a subtle challenge and
intrigue).  Now, she has to work to see you again.
When I was in college one of my favorite approaches (among Greeks) was to
tell a sorority woman that I was pledging and I had to get her interview.
This was great because I could quickly write down her full name, address,
phone number, and I could ask her lots of questions to find things in common
and other useful info, and I could ask her things that might otherwise be
difficult to get away asking.
Good luck.

(Commenting on Sisonpyh:  his whole
>  mindset towards meeting women is to be "Cocky and funny" (his words). My
>  opinion is that women are turned off by arrogant men. UNLESS. they're
>  FUNNY. This magic combination will attract women like this list attracts
>  guys
>  who don't get laid. I'm following in my buddy's footsteps.

This works like a charm.  I think this guy just brilliantly summarized one
of the primary reasons why some Jerks do well with HB's, and one of the most
important things I do when I'm at my best.  This behavior works especially
well with dancers.  This guys tactics are spot on.


>Ross and Bishop are always saying: "GO THERE FIRST, and the only
>way for her to feel good internally is for you to feel wonderful
>internally." Don't you agree with that?

I don't have an answer for that really.  I mean, the strategy I use to get
IN the mood is to approach.  Sure, the first 3 sets might be strained but I
tell you, they wake you up and get you into TALKATIVE STATE.  The approach
IS the state changer.
>And don't you agree with NLP techniques that if you constantly rehearse a
>state with visualizations, feelings, and anchors, then you can develop
>state in yourself? Or do you think it's all wishful, wimpy-thinking,

There are 2 ways to get into TALKATIVE.  You can close your eyes and
visualize happy thoughts ... OR ... you can approach a few sets and let
your talkative state gear up.  That has been far more practical for me.  It
is my view that a working PUA practices not at home alone but in front of
live people.  This is a LIFESTYLE, remember.  I get out alot.  I don't have
time to practice at home.  I may force myself to be CHATTY CATHY by yakking
with my wing in the car on the way to a field as well.
> And do you ever consciously ANCHOR states to women? I never see you >talk
about that.

I understand the use of it but have not yet taken advantage of this
subtlety.  I will apply it more for certain.  It's very good form.
>I also like how you say that patterns are just playful routines. I think
that's a >much better way to look at them than thinking: "You HAVE to get in
that >state for her to get into that state."  That just creates seriousness
and >unneeded effort when you "try and attain the state".  All that I've
read from >you is your one-liners. I would like to know ALL your routines:
The Elvis >script, the Tangerine opener - everything.

When my book is done it will be easily available for purchase - my routines
are comprehensively outlined.  When will the book be complete?  No deadline
set sorry.
>If you could give me some info on how I can find them out, please let
>me know.  Right now, you are my modeling guru.

Cool - modeling what works rather than any arbitrary system (like
Outfoxing) is the best way to go.  This shit works.  Crazy isn't it?


(reply to Draz: The romantic hero): Draz, to speed up the discussion,
could you give us a list of defining traits of the romantic hero that are
brought forward in the books you mentioned.


I bought this:
> Flyer sent in the URL for a very interesting looking website:
>   If anyone has bought this
> and would be kind
> enough to provide some comments, we'd like to hear them.

There's nothing really great there. Some tips, clever ones, but nothing as
"What to say" or "What to do  to make her...". There are some good tips, but
nothing as SS.  The techniques are clever, common ways of making a woman pay
attention. Like, be different than the others (actually he gives an
example), or listen to her. It's like the guy who wrote it got out, tried
some things or
approaches that worked, and then wrote them for us. You can sense a little
tiny bit of SS there. It's like a pre-ss course, but without all the
preparation of oneself to do it. Just pick the technique and go try.


I have been reading up a bit on the concept of Social Proof, where it is
considered better to be seen with a chyck in public than to be seen alone.
As most of us agree, HB's will see you as "approved", hence you will
look more attractive in their eyes. I am currently seeing what I consider a
"7" grade HB, and want to upgrade to a "9" (SHB). My two part question is:
If I
use Social Proof, can I utilize a "7" to upgrade to a "9"?? and if so, then
how does one proceed??? Aside from the obvious bring her to places where the
"9"'s see you with your "7", what are the next steps?? is there a website
that goes a bit more in-depth of this??

My Comment:  One of the key things that has not been explored properly among
most of the various seduction resources that I have seen, is the proper use
of women's competitiveness.  I think one of the most astounding revelations
yet to be fully explored here is just how powerful this is.  Women are
unbelievably competitive and you can do things that would otherwise be
unthinkable if, properly set up and framed, you can pit her against a rival
for your affections.  Comments on this would be greatly appreciated.


(previous commentary)
> > needs to change his perception.  He is writing about banging hot
> > I've never banged anyone in my life, especially a "brawd".  However,
>I have
> > met many hot women who I've shared wonderful sexual experiences with.
>Which is one of the reasons why D.S. believes that "getting  sex _is_
>fucking 'rocket science'" and it seems to me that he believes that
>so strongly, that his subconscious is being 'helpful' by making that
>belief a reality...for him. I think the first big step, before he
>spews patterns like a bulimic, is to learn to get out of his own way.
>Until then, his success will be severely limited.
>Luke: I don't believe it.
>Yoda: That is why you fail.

I seem to have been misinterpreted in saying sex is rocket science.  I
didn't mean, as I think was made clear in my postings, that sex is only
obtained by following extremely abstruse methods, and that, as in rocket
science, only a few can do.  What I mean, and meant (clearly, I think), is
that it takes work to get.  And also when I say it's scarce, I drew the
comparison to other animals.  A squirrel doesn't concern himself with
getting laid.  He just bellies up to a hot brawd squirrel and bangs away.
She doesn't like it, he follows her til she does, or abandons her and gets

Second, I didn't enter myself personally into the discussion, though it
seems to have made its way, in which case I'll say my efforts at getting
laid yield the ultimate result.  I have little trouble getting laid (in
three dates, for fewer I have to work on my stuff).  My guarantee of getting
laid is due to what's kind of a un-PC thing here to say, but my tall height,
my build, and my good looks.  But more important than that, I'll eagerly
admit, is how one behaves oneself.  And on this matter I've been reading
everything I can get my hands on.

Third, about my using the language of 'brawds' and 'banging' them.
I use this language with deliberation.  Here's why: men are pulled into two
different views when it comes to relations with women, in my experience.
The first view is the one the mother instills in him at an early age and a
view that follows him into adolescence.  It's the view of women as pure,
wholesome, flowery kinds of creatures that you feel warm, soft emotions for,
just like you do your mother.  You want to appreciate a woman, from this
view, and never let her be hurt, or sad, or let her cry or be down.  In this
view, you 'make love' to a woman.

But this view, the mother-instilled view, won't get you fucking laid.  It'll
lead you to become a nice guy and sexually frustrated and maybe at the age
of forty if it holds long enough it'll lead you to do ghastly things because
of decades of sexual frustration.

The counter view, is the manly view.  This view has you thinking about women
as creatures to stick your cock in until you cum.  It has women being only
good for the slit between their legs, which you MUST MUST MUST have access
to for your cock.  You'll do anything just to slide into her cunt.  Once
you're finished fucking her in the cunt, you're satisfied -- if only for the
time being.

Now obviously in this writing that you've just read, the difference in
language I've used to describe the two views has been dramatic.
Possibly you were mildly offended by the language I used in describing the
manly view.  (If you are a woman you were probably revolted.)

So what I think I've not only talked about but actually put on a
demonstration about, is the power of language over our thinking.

So now what does this have to do with using the language of 'banging
Everything.  Here's why: when I use this language, and in turn think with
it, I think about women differently than I would if I thought about 'making
love' to a woman.  And in turn my different thinking leads to different
behavior.  That is the key.  I'm going to repeat that.  In turn my different
thinking leads to different behavior.

Well, what kind of different behavior, you might ask?  The different
of, say, after we've come back from a date and we walk into my house,
immediately me turning and kissing her, instead of, say, going and sitting
down on the couch and then chatting.  I kiss her immediately because she's
just a 'brawd' that I'm trying to 'bang'.  She's not a 'woman' I'm trying to
'make love to.'

Now let me say I try to strike a balance.  I don't want to be just an
insensitive jerk who nails women six times and discards them.  When I find
myself becoming too 'male-like', I stop thinking about women as brawds to
bang.  (Yes, I just turn it off.)  And also I start listening to different
types of music.  For instance, if I want to think about women as brawds to
bang, I'll listen to some Nas or Outkast.  If I want to think about women as
women to make love to, I'll listen to some Dave Matthews.

Personally, I find myself trying to think more male-like w/r/t women because
I was raised by a single mother and never saw a male interacting with a
female, which really leads one to be non-male-like in one's ways (and which
also happens to be just about the number one factor in male homosexuality).

Now since a lot of people on this list are plainly intelligent and also
interested in NLP, which basically studies language, I'm sure a lot of
people can appreciate what I've just explained.  If you still don't
appreciate it and you're a guy, it's probably because you already have
enough male-like-ness in you.

If you're a woman and you don't like it . . . duh!  Women don't like the
truth, which truth is that the most important part of a man's relationship
to a woman is sex.  Take anything away from the relationship and the
relationship might still stand -- anything but sex.


Sisonpyh makes a point of always improving his game, even minor aspects.
In keeping with that spirit, I'd like to offer two minor points that help
First point. When I make a call to a chick, especially the first call, I
it goes better if I use a cell phone with a hands-free headset and WALK
AROUND during the call - if I'm inside, just pace up and down in the one
I don't know why it works. Am I burning off nervous energy? Am I breathing
better by standing up? Am I getting into an action-oriented frame of mind by
moving my body? Is it just operant conditioning at work (anchoring for you

The fact that my hands are free may help. Thinking about it some more, I
notice that when I'm leading a conversation at a party, say, and being
entertaining and capturing listeners' interest - in short, when I am UP - I
also use strong hand gestures and move my body a lot.
So maybe I am reentering that state with the hands-free setup.
I don't know. It works for me, so I use it.

Second point. I do performance poetry - loud, funny, confronting, just short
of offensive (most of the time :-). I get nervous beforehand. But I get good
results if I launch into the performance with a strong clear voice.
It's almost impossible for me to feel nervous while my voice is strong and
clear. I don't mean loud in a shrill or fearful way. I mean in a commanding,
powerful way. If I'm nervous, my voice tends to be weak. If I then put power
into my voice, my nerves go away. It's as though I can exist in either one
of those states, but not both at the same time.

I use this with my phone calls, especially the first call to a new chick.
I'm nervous beforehand. So, I launch into the call with a strong clear
voice, like a performance.
If/when my confidence starts fading, I can hear it in my voice. It's as
though my voice is both a control and a feedback sensor.
Again, I don't know why it works for me. It does, so I use it.

I'd like to add my 2 Yen to Albert's "insult one woman a day" idea.
It's radical. I don't know if I would do it in person to something who I
didn't think deserved it. It may be easier to do it via the Internet, in
newsgroups; chat rooms; or email.
Recently, I was publicly humiliated by a messed-up bitch (my fault), and it
put me in touch with my inner "bad boy". I have been rehearsing and acting
out a "bad boy" aggressive character since then. I've posted about this on
The idea behind Albert's method is a good one - to give the AFC a choice
in how he behaves. AFC's are stuck in supplication out of fear. Due to
erroneous beliefs about what attracts a woman to a man, AFC's fear doing
anything that could give rise to disagreement or unpleasantness, for two
First, they fear that any unpleasantness will cause the woman to leave.
Second, they don't know how to meet and attract women, so they fear the
prospect of having to go searching again.
Hence, an AFC clings desperately on to the woman he "has", and supplicates.
He is too frightened to be insistent and uncompromising, at times, even
when that would be appropriate to the situation. He feels powerless.

There's something else at work, though (IMHO), and it has to do with fear
of rejection. When a guy first approaches a chick, the situation has
potential to become unpleasant. She might blow him off, badly. He might get
his feelings hurt. That's a realistic risk.
Again, he feels powerless. The AFC feels he has no choice but to swallow
whatever abuse he may get. In fact, he does have a choice. He can give as
good as he gets. He can criticise her behaviour. But he is too frightened
to even consider this. Why?
I don't know for sure. I guess it is because, ultimately, he is afraid of
his own power. That either he will "destroy" this "fragile" creature in
front of
him, or that he will face severe reprisals.
What Albert's scheme does is give the AFC the *experience* of getting
aggressive, in a low-key way; seeing for himself that the aftermath is
manageable; that both he and her survive intact; and learning that he has
a choice in how he behaves - i.e. he has *power* which he is free to use,
or not use.
I must admit, I didn't fully get his concept - I didn't feel the truth in
it - until I got played by this particular bitch, and I decided to accept
full responsibility and embrace the pain that came from it.
So Albert, let me say I get it now. I can feel what you're talking about.
To me, it's about having a choice in how I behave. And in how, and to what
extent, I use my own power.
Maybe there are other paths to the same destination.
All this only applies to supplicating fearful AFC's. It is not for


I agree we could use some more of these "how to be successful with women"
manuscripts. I don't remember where I read about this book but I bought it
and put it into practice this weekend and it is AWESOME stuff.
The book is "Secrets of Sensual Lovemaking"by Tom Leonardi. My girlfriend
says it is the most unbelievable orgasmic experience she has ever had. It is
unlike any clitoral orgasm in that it comes (no pun intended) from "a place
deep inside the core of her being". Those were her words exactly. Everything
that Tom Leonardi mentions in the book happened, in the exact order he said
it would.
My girlfriend can't get enough of it.
Highly recommend it.


I just looked up _Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women_ on Amazon.
It says that people who bought this also bought:
_FutureRitual_ by Philip H. Farber
_The Secret Science at Work_ by Max Freedom Long

I'm gettin' a big kick out of imagining what romance readers and
writers stumbling upon this make of it.


Bro Wombat:
The special edition you just sent was magic.  Really good stuff and I liked
it how he went for a hair stroking close.  Similar to mine although I use it
to move from the non touching to getting into it.  He uses it when they are
on the bed or where ever.  I think hair brushing is a bit more stealthy as
theoretically there is an inanimate object doing the touching.  And then you
move then to the bed.  Anyway to each his own.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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