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I better go grab it!
Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:36:54 -0500


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>  > NEVER give a woman exactly what she asks for. EVER!
>I don't totally agree with this.  Yes, it is good for making you a
>and giving you the power.  However, there is a better way.  Someone who
>sometimes say "Yes" becomes an even greater challenge and more powerful.
>Random "Yes" keeps her hopeful and makes you more unpredictable.  It also
>allows you to say "Yes" when it would also please you.  Plus, you can use
>the "yes" to shape and reward her behavior.  Do the "Yes" with behaviors
>want to encourage.  However, make the "yes" a rare and special prize.  I
>once dated a woman for about a year before giving her flowers.  Her father
>gave her flowers every week.  The week her father was on vacation I gave
>flowers.  You can pick your moments.

Beautifully said!  If you can't EVER give a woman what she asks for,
then it is HER asking that is controlling your behavior still, simply
by being ALWAYS what you move away from.  There's a line between
doing what works and an obsessive need to control based on the fear
of being out of control.
>  > But another important distinction that I've made is to never be too
>  >  Women are intrigued when you stay very calm, almost unaffected. The
>  >  hotties are used to having men get nervous when talking to them, and
>  >  can
>  >  sense that you're different when you stay very cool, and calmly talk
>  >  them.
>  >  NEVER let them sense that you're interested. (By the way, all these
>  >  are
>  >  different if you're trying to get married. this stuff is for getting
>I don't agree with this part.  Yes, being calm is definitely helpful.
>However, I think being able to be a happy fun loving guy with a sense of
>adventure can also work very well.  Being the type of guy who can
>the types of experiences that woman would describe as sensual (not
>pampering, nurturing, i.e. massage with aromatherapy, and relaxing music.

Some women are turned on by cold guys.  How disturbed are we going
to ACT in order to attrACT very disturbed women?  WHERE IS THE COVERT
SCREENING-OUT PROCESS IN SISONPHY'S way of doing things or will he 100% go
for a woman no matter what disturbances she displays PROVIDED SHE IS A"10"
lookswise?  "Wrestle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster" as
Nietzche said.

My Comment:  I have a bug about this screening out process.  I learned a
long time ago that everyone has someone they are nice to.  You can't live in
this world if you aren't (ok, there are exceptions, but I really don't think
you are going to find as many as are implied here among attractive,
intelligent, well presented women).  There is no question that many women
react in illogical, often vile and hostile ways to guys who approach them --
this does not mean that if you had somehow or other gotten past that stage
that you wouldn't find that same woman to be warm, intelligent and have many
qualities.  From what I can tell, the "screening out" process most of the
time only results in eliminating a candidate; it doesn't deal with turning
the situation (or somehow avoiding it completely) around and truly finding
out if there is a person there worth knowing.  I think that just as many men
have a difficult time to get to a point in their lives where meeting women
who are complete strangers is something they can do naturally and feel
comfortable with, there are many women who have their own issues about how
and where they meet someone.  Just as I think it is wrong for a woman to
dismiss a man who is trying to meet her because, in reality, she doesn't
really know anything
about him, it may equally be a mistake to judge a woman by her behaviour
when being met.  I happen to know Sisonpyh personally and we have similar
tastes in women -- generally, extremely attractive, highly intelligent, well
dressed women.  These are not "coke whores" or other generally dysfunctional
females (as I said, there are exceptions) and when you get those off the
wall reactions from this kind of person I believe that it is more likely
something that should be dealt with from a perspective of overcoming the
barriers rather than searching for the destruct button.

Ross Continues:
>Thank you Ross for the seminar invite.  I will definitely take you up on
>that when I return to LA.  I look forward to meeting you.
>On Ross' going for coffee: While the COFFEE THING is stereotypical, I
>that in LA it's a part of people's lifestyle.  It's not difficult to see
>people chatting naturally at any one of hundreds of places where you can
>shoot the shit outside and have a tea or whatnot.  HOWEVER: In other
>this is NOT the case.  In Toronto, cafe's are not particularly cool.  More
>like donut shops and not like the restaurants on sunset.  Also, people
>for warmth here and that means like shit.  Wool hats and such certainly
>assist in motivating you to chat with a girl.  It's very different (having
>lived in both places).  In LA it works (hell, even I've gotten girls in
>situations) but not in Toronto.  There are few targets (most are donut
>and it's usually teens with little money.  This is why your cafe approach
>thing is invalid for so many people - the advice you give SOUNDS like it
>would work (and in LA it certainly does) but in other cities it's going to
>get you toothless wonders.

Oh, ok. NOW I get it.  I agree, in a town like that, coffee probably
would NOT work!   DONUT HAGS! Ha ha ha ha ha!  You mean the kind of girl
you'd get if you studied John Eagan's stuff or...never mind!
>Last night I went out with my friend who has had sex with over 100 women.
>have seen his recent chicks and pics of his ex gf's and believe you me the
>girls are gorgeous.  And I'm picky.  His deal is to be brutally honest.
>ran into some porn stars and he was talking to them in a club, and they
>tried to tell him that they only did women.  He told them they were full
>shit and probably did anals all day long, and that he thought that they
>used material and therefore digesting and off limits.

Ha ha ha. BRUTAL honesty works, because chicks suddenly find you 100%
sincere. They DON'T believe "nice guys" are being sincere, which is
one of the reasons nice guys seldom get anywhere; not so much because
they are "nice" but because CHICKS DON'T TRUST THEM!
>Another time he was at a club (forgive me if I already told you this
>and there was an AMAZING girl in there that stood way above the rest.
>chick was shooting guys down HARD and acting super stuck up.

Of course; she has a license to do so! This is the dynamic of a
club; the hotter the woman, the higher on the "pecking" order, the
more she is licensed to "bitch".
>  She even
>rejected a semi famous singer.  My friend went up to her after that and
>said, "Excuse me but I was just wondering why you are such a bitch.  These
>people here are trying to be nice to you and you are acting like a spoiled
>fucking brat.  Most good looking people are thankful for their looks...You
>should be happy to be good looking, but you use that to be mean to people.
>That's really fucked up."  She said, "Well, I may be a bitch but you're an
>asshole."  He said, "Whatever" and walked away.

Interesting point hidden in all this: this chick is gorgeous AND
miserable.  All of her looks and EVERYONE kissing her ass does NOT
make her happy. So where does she go? Where she is guaranteed to be
unhappy but at least able to take it out on everyone around her.

As far as clubs go, I'm a 100% rank-amateur. I don't go to them, but
I DO understand how to look at power dynamics.  And I know that
pointing out the power-dynamic of someone's behavior in a CALM and
accurate way really gets them. So maybe this Bro could have let
himself get shot down and THEN have said, as calmly as possible,  "I
guess part of the fun of coming here is having a license to be as
cold and as vicious as you dare not be in the real world"...and walk
>   Later he saw her as he was
>going into the bathroom and she said, "There's the asshole."  He said,
>"There's the bitch" and went in and handled business.  Guess who was
>for him when he came out?  She grabbed him, threw him up against the wall
>and frantically made out with him.  Then she invited him back to her
>but as they were leaving the semi famous singer yelled out, "Make sure she
>swallows!" and she tried to kill him and got arrested.  But you see my

That 10's aren't always worth it because they might be homicidal,
angry,unhappy little queens?
>Craig (Continues):  The most important thing that this guy taught me is
>to be whiny.  I can not stress the importance of this enough.  How many of
>you guys have lost a hot girl because the girl flaked/didn't return a
>call and you called her on her bullshit?  Cliff, I know you lost a really
>hot one a few months back when she flaked on you.  I remember your
>to her and it was made her look like a stuck up immature
>who has no respect for others.  Great stuff, but what happened?

What was the response? I recommended he say, "I guess you only keep
the commitments that are the most exciting for you in the moment."
>Craig (Continues):  She is gone.  Why?  Because when you called her on her
>BS, she knew that YOU CARED that she flaked, and that you were really
>looking forward to hanging out with her.

Craig, isn't that a function of showing you have self-respect...that
you care about how people treat you? I don't take flaking from
ANYONE, male or female.
>Craig (Continues):  The chase was over.  Now what exactly to do when
>on depends on the situation.  The reality of it is that you don't know
>happened, and she may or may not have had a great reason for flaking.  I
>would treat it as such and give her a chance to explain what happened,
>without sounding like I really gave a shit.  Just like I would if one of
>guy friends flaked on me.

I agree.  Here's something I used with a very hot 25 year old
waitress who was supposed to meet me for coffee but didn't show.
(Remember, this was the 2 days before Christmas. From her incredible
responses to my trancing her in the restaurant, I KNEW she was
interested.)  I waited 15 minutes, she didn't show...decided to
finish my Maxim after 2:30 I left.   Around 3:00 p.m. I left
the following message on her machine:

"Hi Tanya, it's Ross.  We were supposed to meet a Starbucks at 2:00 PM
and you weren't there...and..I have to say I'm puzzled. You didn't
STRIKE me as the kind of person who would DELIBERATELY interrupt her own
opportunity to learn and explore something really
I'm wondering what happened in your environment to force you to miss
out.  My number is......"

Now, this is said VERY calmly. It allows for all circumstances. It
gives her an image to live up to and sets the frame that SHE is
missing something, all by implication rather than directly saying it.
It allows her to have an "out"; even if she was hesitant now she can,
in her mind, go, "'s giving me another chance.....I
better go grab it!".

Well, I saw her the next day in her restaurant and she about tripped
over herself apologizing.  She told me she had been telling herself
all day, "Meet him 2:00 p.m. at Starbucks" but she got trapped Christmas
shopping in Burbank (about 20 miles from me), lost track of time,  and
then got stuck on the freeway...didn't have my number......."  I just
sat there looking at her kind of cold.   I said, "Hmm....well, I think
you need to do something to make it up to me.  My neck is kinda
bothering me." She then proceeds to give me a very nice neck,
shoulder and back rub for 5 minutes (the restaurant was kinda dead so
it was ok).

Then I said, "And I think the coffee and the bacon for my breakfast
are on you." She said, "No problem".

After another apology from her, I eased up.  I told her that she
needed to think what she could do to make it up to me when we did get
to sit down for the coffee and she said "Ok." She then said, "You
told me collect comics, right? What kind do you like?"  I looked at
her and said, "Surprise me".

Will this always work? Hell no...some chicks are just monster-flakes or just
playing you. But dialog like this sure helps to leave it open to them
responding better.
>This was the most interesting part of this post for me because I can
>Here is a guy with TONS of NLP and hypno experience yet he doesn't do
>patterns or anything like that.  Why?  Because it is unnecessary.

Hey, Rick H. the most successful guy I know with women who could
probably mop the floor with Mystery and ME uses patterns!  Rick LOVES
patterns! He's also cocky, cool, good looking, etc., but he uses
patterns because they work and they've upped HIS success tremendously!

Use what works!


>Leon said:
>how to be. Huge difference. (Am I saying that you can't get laid if you
>wear Nike's and have fucked up hair? No. But remember, a blind pig can
>an occasional truffle.)

I don't know... I've asked many girls the question about clothing and they
all say pretty much the same - nice clothing could be cool but it doesn't
much difference. The most important thing is to look *sexy*.
The majority of beautiful girls I see in Toronto don't hang out/go out with
guys in "shiny shoes," etc. but with guys who wear sneakers and cargoes.
My ex-wife says that this "proper" look (shiny shoes, shirts, etc.) is
incredibly boring. (She's a 10, gets hit on constantly, 31 and people think
she's 18.)  We once drove with a friend of mine and his girlfriend and we
passed "Indian Motorcycle" - a club where people dress up, etc. There was a
crowd of guys dressed "properly" outside. I asked her if she liked them.
"What are you crazy?" - she said, - "they look so boooring and asexual, they
all look the same".  She's a 10, 22, used to be a model, when we're in clubs
everybody just shuts up and stares at her, and guys hit on her like crazy.
boyfriend wears sneakers, T-shirts, wide pants, etc., and he's a raver-type
guy. And I have many more of such stories.

Bjorn's comment to the above;
I live in Kitchener, Ontario (Kitchener has a big night life scene and is
near Toronto) and my observations are that the majority of HB's I see under
25 are with younger guys who have the raver (or GAP) type of look/dress.  I
would be interested to hear the PUA's expand upon the dress style point
(maybe with recommendations of specific brands of clothes, shoes, etc.).
Also, there are some females who are on this NG.  What do they think about
this whole dress issue?  BTW, I am 38 and tend to wear nicer clothing with
shiny shoes but am open minded to try other ideas.

My Comment: While I think it's important to be clean and smell good, I think
clothes can be overrated.  It's what you say that makes the difference -- as
long as you don't give off bad odors and aren't dressed like a bum, it's
your personality that will make the big difference.  Being very well dressed
won't hurt -- but how many women are going to come up to you and say, "I
like what you're wearing, here's my number" or "take me home"?


> Dr. Robert Jacobs site promotes some interesting
> products.  If anyone gets them, how about a review?  He also sells what
> supposed to be the same as Psycho Power at
> (I am still waiting for someone to review
> for me).  One of them is a book at and how to get women
> through hypnosis at WWW.SEXHYPNOSIS.COM.

I wasted 24 bucks and it's pretty lame (the website is
The sex hypnosis consists of getting a woman agree to be hypnotized and then
implant sexual requests in her mind. What a brilliant idea! Who would have
thought of that... anyway...
Here's some idea of what is in there:
....[content temporarily removed by request]....

My Comment:  I recognize some of Ross's words in the above, not a good sign
of originality...(maybe a bad sign of plagiarism).


(Commenting on Optimus:  I'm curious Mystery, why?  To show that you don't
have to be courteous?  Politeness doesn't apply to you?  Or is it because
you think it's supplicating to mouth the words "Excuse me?"  What, alpha
males don't have to be courteous?):

... and "HI" is not courteous?  To EXCUSE oneself is to APOLOGIZE for
something.  My initiating a chat is nothing to be sorry about.  "Excuse me"
is something a bum begging for change asks.  "Hi" is what a friend would

Optimus:  "Can you get home ok?"  Are you serious?  You must
explain this. This actually works?  Just leave them there??

Mystery: That was a ha ha joke. *shug*

Mystery commenting on Ross: ("Let me ask EVERYONE reading this: what kind of
women are you aiming yourself at, and what does this imply about what you
guys view the job of seduction is all about?
One View of the Job
As I see it, there are those women who are highly sexual and into banging
pretty quickly. And with them, being a seductionist isn't about convincing
them to be different or have different responses than they normally are used
to. It's about:
Fitting the mold of what they ALREADY perceive to be attractive...providing
all the cues and social triggers that for them say, "It's slut time!". And
doing it when you normally might not fit what THEY consider to be a
delicious prospect by using your attitude, dialog, game moves, etc. Thus,
out of the guys they COULD select who might be better looking, have higher
social status, you reshuffle the deck so you appear to have been dealt the
high-cards they normally respond to and look for.
It seems to me, especially with regard to you bar and club guys, that this
is what you are aiming at. It's all aimed, however it might appear to THEM,
at tweaking YOURSELF so that you draw THEM...without even really
bothering to examine if "THEM" is really much worth wanting.
The problem, as I see it, with this approach is that these girls tend to be
ones who are ALWAYS are usually looking for NET (Next Exciting
Thing). Much as you guys are looking for the next hotter babe (NHB) they
tend to move towards WHATEVER/WHOMEVER is most
stimulating/exciting/challenging in the environment. Hence the flakiness,
extreme testing, drama-whorishness that is so common with these women. It
means having to exert a LOT of control and also having to do lots of
recruiting; they aren't aimed at sticking around anyway, so you constantly
have to be on the job to get more."):

The most powerful reason to do club approaches is this: TRAINING.  I tell
you, know that I have the skills from countless club approaches,
approaching single girls at a cafe is like shooting fish in a barrel.  That
is why I call them BONUS ROUNDS.  All I have to do is tone my personality
DOWN and demonstrate a little SHYNESS to 1:1 approaches.  I ENJOY the
challenge of the clubs.  I ENJOY the RAISED B SHIELDS.  This PREPARES you
for the simple 1:1 sets.  Ross, we've got to talk.  Remember I'm nearly 30
so it's not like I do the club scene like a youth.  I go where the GIRLS
are. Again in my city, unlike L.A., you will NOT find worthy targets easily
anyplace else.  Good to have you take time to spend with us online during
the holidays.  Your ideas rock - AND - when I get you into doing groups
(like day before yest I was with my wing and he brought his RAFC friend out
with us to a club - I pointed to a 6set all girls and he said, "that's
impossible".  I shrugged and 3sec ruled it - right in with a "woman's
opinion: what's your first impression of this? (show my black nails)."
opened the group easily)  you will no longer make excuses that you are too
old (yes I'm givin' you a ribbing) or some other excuse like "it's tooo
loud".  I agree the places are loud.  Stay away from the LOUDEST areas.

Mystery Comments on Ross: ("I know a guy who is the best I've ever seen at
attracting and quickly nailing these kinds of women. He's been with over 500
of them, but he is ALSO constantly having to recruit.")

I know where you are coming from.  I'm not going for the QUICK LAY.  (I
assume you are talking about RICK - We hung out in LA).  I'm going for the
EDUCATION so that when I DO MEET a SHB (like a VERY FAMOUS WOMAN) I will
have the skillset to nab her.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("Ask him in private and he'll tell you his
return customer ratios suck; they run at somewhere around 10-15%."):

Yeah.  I build LTR's and keep going just for fun.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("He's good looking, athletic, VERY rich, I
don't think he's got a small unit (but I've never looked or asked) so it
isn't about that. It's about the audience he's aiming at. If he keeps doing
what he's doing he'll keep being even better AT HAVING THE SAME EXPERIENCE
OVER AND OVER with different players providing the same action and dialog.")

Yeah I hear ya.  We need to CHALLENGE OURSELVES MORE.  For me - what's next?
I'm working on a LTR 3some and will meet up with the girl I'm going to do
this with in an hour.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("Another Way To View It
Seduction might, just might be about presenting new and
different choices to women. Which means a process of CONDITIONING over a
period of time.(Anywhere from three weeks to a month over a period of 2-3
meetings/phone calls/talking.)  I've had WONDERFUL experiences with women
who would just never, and I mean NEVER go home with a guy the first night
because it's so totally 100% outside of their experience. But what they were
then able to experience with me and what they were and where they were
capable of going was awesome."):

I understand.  I will TRY to get her going that night but if not, then I
will TRY to get her on day 2.  If not then I will TRY on day 3 and so on.
TRY doesn't mean FORCE.  I just structure OPPORTUNITIES for her to get close
to me.  If not - IGNORE for a short time.  Like Pavlov's dog, they learn
quick to behave accordingly to continue feeling like they are getting my

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("And also, I was not at all able to create an
overwhelming attraction right out of the gate simply because I didn't have
much time to talk to them the first time around. Debriefing them told me
that they WERE fascinated by me, and as one young lady said, "I'm a sucker
for fascination...that's why I agreed to talk to you again."
This person took that brief 5 minute initial meeting.....a phone
conversation....a coffee meeting...and then an evening "meeting" before she
was closed. But she treated me respectfully the ENTIRE time, kept her
appointments, I spent NOTHING, and she was really quite wonderful for more
than a one nighter and we remain good friends to this day."):

Agreed.  A Club approach does NOT mean a one nighter.  It's not a TYPE of
woman you get in a club.  Clubs are just PUBLIC GATHERINGS - I try so many
different TYPES of clubs and pubs and such that you can't put the women into

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("I didn't take her home that day I met her (for
her, sex makes her feel very vulnerable....does this make her a "Bitch" with
a "shield" or a human who has some concerns to be handled and addressed?)
and I'll wager NO ONE here in this forum could."):

Some beliefs in her head can be reframed.  Others, you must simply mirror.
If certain beliefs of hers are attached to emotions (like feeling
vulnerable) then just waiting and building trust is just the solution.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("It just seems to me that you guys are placing
SO much emphasis on seduction being about a PERFORMANCE over a VERY short
period of time for a "Hottie", BASED SOLELY ON HER LOOKS, that in no place
do you address finding out more about what makes HER uniquely HER; both so
you can get a closer look at whom you might be getting closer too and so you
can decide if conditioning her over a period of time will be worth the
candle. It doesn't seem to me you are looking at what your OWN needs might
be from a woman other than providing proof for yourself that you are an
excellent PUA and a bit of sexual excitement. Consider you may get very lost
in what works for you too well!"):

I believe strongly in the "performance" thing but not in the "lay her that
night" thing.  If you CAN, then go for it if you desire but it's simply less
likely.  HOWEVER, in my experience, if I've kissed a girl and necked with
the night I met her, I can more easily LTR her.  We can't polarize the
to strictly black and white.  INSTANT PASSION created by your well
rehearsed PERFORMANCE does NOT mean a one night stand and no chance of
establishing a LTR.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("The great thing is that when you DO use the
conditioning approach, in a non-dating, non-supplicating, NON-AFC way,
instead of being in such a frantic hurry to bury your dick in her, you
actually can find you get more benefits once you do. She can then see it as
more than just a quick lay that she then has to run from. You can get a look
at what YOU want, at a deeper level from a woman  that...SHOCKERS....your
"wing" might not consider a 10 but that you find to be quite the lovely,
lovely HB."):

Fair.  I am looking for SHOCKERS right now.  AND ... I want to LTR a
SHOCKER.  (SHOCKER = a girl who is STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL.)  AND ... I believe
you can have a rewarding emotional connection even with a SHOCKER.  Now, if
only I could FIND them! :(

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("Now, I want to emphasize, this is NOT AFC. I
don't buy them gifts. I don't spend money (except sometimes coffee). I don't
take ANY crap and I DON'T listen to their problems (if she's temporarily in
a "hoo hoo" about an IMMEDIATE crisis that is truly painful in THAT moment,
I'm not going to rudely shut her up....I won't listen to CHRONIC problems,
ever, however. One girl cancelled on me recently because her grandmother
dropped dead the day we are going to have coffee; am I supposed to bitch her
out for that or demand "she make it up to me?") or adjust my schedule for
them. I'm NOT dating. But I am being kind enough to see that some folks need
a bit of a conditioning period and sometimes they have lives going on that
may prevent them from immediately recognizing my inherent wonderfulness. The
world don't revolve around me; sometimes I can create a world attractive
enough that others choose to revolve around it, or at least try out a nice
geo-sexual orbit for a while!"):

Totally agreed.  The RULES we create are LIMITERS.  They are
generalizations.  When it's all said and done, there are ALWAYS going to be
times when the rules we create must be broken.  Our mental model is not
REALITY.  It's merely an approximation of reality.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("Now, sometimes in the conditioning process,
there are "respect opportunities" where behavior has to be corrected. That's
ok; that's MY job. Some flunk out because they are too flaky, too busy, too
embroiled in other drama/turmoil or I just didn't do a fine enough job of
establishing that initial fascination AND that my time needs to be respected
and cherished."):

It is THAT INITIAL job of establishing fascination (or I believe the
emotion should be ENVY) that I call the PERFORMANCE.

Mystery Commenting on Ross: ("But overall, I find myself more comfortable
with this and I get MUCH further with women who otherwise I'd never have a
shot at.
Ok...I'm done raving for Christmas Eve. Please know I'm not
putting down ANYONE'S skills. I'm learning here like everyone else and
admire ANYONE who is out there slugging it out in the field instead of
hiding behind their keyboards..."):

Damn I wish I were down there with you.  I perceive you and I would be
friends beyond this PUA game.  Similar lifestyles.  I am strongly
considering doing MM seminars and would love to pick your brain on this side
of SS.  I have alot of valuable tried and tested shit.  Oh and the online
girl I met has asked me to stay with her when I return to LA.  That pleases

Mystery Commenting on Ross's Comments on Flyer's Comment:
>I have been reading up a bit on the concept of Social Proof,
where it is
>considered better to be seen with a chyck in public than to be
seen alone.
>As most of us agree, HB's will see you as "approved", hence you
>look more attractive in their eyes. I am currently seeing what
I consider a
>"7" grade HB, and want to upgrade to a "9" (SHB). My two part
question is:
>If I
>use Social Proof, can I utilize a "7" to upgrade to a "9"?? and
if so, then
>how does one proceed??? Aside from the obvious bring her to
places where
>"9"'s see you with your "7", what are the next steps?? is there
a website
>that goes a bit more in-depth of this??

(Ross's Comments to the above): Let me jump in here a second and point
something different out; how are we rating what makes a "7" or a "9" or a
"10" for that matter?  Guys, what are we really in this for? Personally, I
will attempt much with a girl who is a "10" if her attitude is bad, if she
is stupid, displays self-absorption etc.  Is "10" a measure of how much we
SUBJECTIVELY feel attracted to a woman, based on a range of
qualities...sure, an attractive body, but also friendly, outgoing, good
energy, etc?  Far be it from me to be a feminist, but crikey, it seems the
ONLY thing spoken of here that makes a woman attractive is her LOOKS..her
PHYSICAL appearance...what kind of photo she'd make on a wall.

(Mystery's Comments):  The BACHELOR rating system (1 to10) is not
practical.  That is why I simplified it into the MYSTERY rating system (UG,
B and HB).  The only reason we need to rate a girl is so that we can
initially treat her a certain way (HB's you never compliment while B's you
can, etc).  AND - we must ALWAYS be aware that this part of the system is
ALWAYS a gross generalization.

(Ross Comments Continue): "Whereas, personally, I've met women who are
stunning but have NOTHING but drama, desperation, dysfunction and disaster
surrounding them. THIS you find attractive? For THIS you are going to tweak
yourself, watch your every thought, response and move to make
sure she comes after you?  Everything in your post, Flyer, is about YOUR
appearing more attractive to them...isn't this, in a sense, a form of
EXISTENTIAL supplication...where ALL of who and what you are is bent towards
drawing THEM?  So what would YOU get out of being with a "10", looks-wise?
You've proven yourself? Your attractiveness? What?
A good part of SS in recent times has been about a covert-screening
mechanism as much as it is about making yourself more appealing;
a way of SCREENING out women with bad behavior, limited response
potential, etc. etc.

(Mystery's Comments): In MM (Mystery Method»), the PUA attracts ALL the girls
he approaches, even the ones he doesn't want.  Why?  Well, it's FUN and it's
PRACTICE.  The PUA also has OPTIONS for turning these girls into LTR's or
PAWN's.  You don't have to kiss them all or fuck them all.  All you do is
convey your personality so that YOU have the choice.  Certainly this would
appear to be a waste of energy but not if you are going for the education.
Certainly I was approaching 12 a day 4 times a week but now I have become
more selective and FIND alot less worthies.  This is merely due to my not
wanting to waste my energy anymore on girls I KNOW I don't want.  Make
sense? At first, I think the PUA should EXERCISE his PUA MUSCLES.

(Ross's Comments): Personally, I'll take an "8" by my looks scale who also
has good social graces, is a great host, has a wonderful sense of
adventure, is giving, smart, has a LIFE going on that has nothing to do
with me, a great brain in her head, good self-esteem, highly sexual,
playful and suggestible over some "10" fitness model who is self-absorbed in
her Hollywood-wanna-be-fantasies and basically has nothing but her
bod to give.  I won't give these "10's" the time of day because 99%
percent of them are drastically and I mean DRASTICALLY disturbed.

(Mystery's Comments): You are at a different level Ross.  The newbies to the
PUA need the practice right?

(Ross's Comments): Ok...I'm done raving for Christmas Eve. Please know I'm
not putting down ANYONE'S skills. I'm learning here like everyone else and
admire ANYONE who is out there slugging it out in the field instead of
hiding behind their keyboards...

(Mystery Continues): Happy Holidays to all here.  Hope you enjoy the
upcoming NYE celebration with the kiss of a beautiful woman.


Mystery Comments on Max: ("I have been having some confusion about the
attitudes and techniques being contributed by members of your list.Just
lately, I realized that you are pioneering two schools in your list, namely
the school and PUA's and the school of NLP/ SSers.  Two different
philosophies, strategies,
and tactics."):

I Gather that the split is in MM and SS.  AND ... there is NO split.  BOTH
models work in the field.  Some work in different areas of the field.  They
are only MODELS of reality.  We need to at some point make a grand
unification theory ... SS works on specific words to evoke desired emotions
while MM talks about knocking on more doors, learning curves and group
tactics.  I think you need to know BOTH and make the info work for YOU.  SS
and MM rarely contradict each other - there is no competition (although I
COULD pretend there was to make potential future customers choose sides but
that's not a contribution sort of thing).  I am not certain that I was the
to mention "PUA" - although it feels like it.  Anyways, for simplicity, it's
MM and SS which IMO is all PUA.  Enough fucking ACRONYMS already haaaa.

(Max's Comments continue): "I thought it might as well be somehow confusing
to the newbies in the list, and worth pointing that thing out. With this
realization now,  I'm now starting to make a distinction in terms of who
writes what and who responds to whom. IMHO, maybe it's worthwhile having
either two separate mailing lists, or dividing each list into two half's,
one half to each school.

Mystery Comments: Blah.  No.  We NEED to work out the details because BOTH
work in the field.  It's like quantum mechanics.  It's BOTH a wave (SS) and
a practical (MM).  Both models work and that means we need to keep working


I am curious about how guys consider there cars in relation to
I'm not talking about what you drive, but how you keep it, and
what you keep
in your car.  Because of my busy schedule I kinda live out of my
car.  It
looks terrible when I take a woman in my car, and often I have
to clear
space in the front seat.
I find that some woman enjoy looking in my car and consider it a
way of
learning about me.  It also creates a feeling of this guy is
down to earth
and I can be comfortable with him.  It also probably causes them
to think
I'm a slob.  However, this becomes a convenient reason to take
her car
gas/wear and tear and I get to learn about her).  My car
typically has some
changes of clothing, gym bags/gym equipment, a few books and
magazines, a
bag of pretzels, a few audiobooks, a music tape, things I need
for work
(mainly papers, and work related reading), and some small things
I like to
keep (a dictaphone, moisturizer, hand sanitizer *use sparingly
b/c it kills
good bacteria & dries skin, tissues, nail clipper) etc.
>Well Groomed"

This is more accessible than most people think.  There are books
magazines (GQ) that can help you.  Many of the better department
stores will
offer professional shopping services.  Nordstrom will do this
for free and
they will help you shop within your budget.  This is almost a
secret that
only the wealthy customers take advantage of even though it is
available and
accessible even for many college students.  3 important rules
even if you're
wearing ripped old cheap clothing:
1) Make sure your clothing matches
2) Make sure you are clean and your clothing is clean,
preferable stain free
3) Make sure your clothing is pressed and wrinkle free.
Another good trick is to go for a very expensive haircut every 6
Your goal with this haircut is to get a style that 1) you can
manage on your
own, and 2) your local barber can maintain.  If you tip the
styling ace well
and explain that you can't get to him all the time, but you like
to go there
as a special treat every few months s/he will work with you to
give you what
you want.
Another important rule -- learn to take care of your teeth and
skin.  This
also important for health.  Although not all movie stars and TV
have beautiful bodies, you will virtually never see a star with
lousy teeth.
Getting a better bod is also quite achievable for most people.
Most of the
HB's will probably be OK with your body so long as you're not
really outta
shape.  Going to the gym will not only build your confidence, it
will also
create a meeting place and common interest with many HB's.
Plus, you will
be in shape to do activities with her i.e. canoeing,
rollerblading, skiing,
If you workout, it is worth investing some time in learning how
to train and
eat intelligently.  You might find that you can cut your
workouts in half
get better results.  Very often simple adjustments make huge
For example, working out in the morning before you eat will
speed up your
metabolism all day (burn more calories).  Eating late at nite
you won't burn
calories as quickly.
Some easy places to start are Bill Philips Fit for Life, and
Pavel's books
(available at  Pavel's workout is great for
athletes and
takes only 20 minutes and can be done with a simple home weight
(investment about $130).  Getting some cardio is also helpful.
Contraction Training by Little and Sisco can be done in 1 or 2
workouts a week (they say 15 minutes and it is probably an hour
when you're
learning the system).  If you're really time pressed there is a
new book out
called Spark which is based on working exercise in to your life
5 or 10
minutes at a time.  Spark training will actually help your body
Growth Hormone (GH) production (builds muscle/burns fat) because
exercise a few times a day is best for GH production.   Most
people can
probably start by alternating a day of cardio with a day of
training.  It is always advisable before exercising to discuss
your plans
with a physician.
Everyone has different advice regarding dieting.  I like Rob
Hormonal Enhancement approach (available from Tools for
for Wellness, or Dragons Door).  I also like Mauro Di Pasquale's
Everyone is different here.
>  William006:
>  I agree we could use some more of these "how to be successful
with women"
>  manuscripts. I don't remember where I read about this book
but I bought
>  and put it into practice this weekend and it is AWESOME
>  The book is "Secrets of Sensual Lovemaking"by Tom Leonardi.
My girlfriend
>  says it is the most unbelievable orgasmic experience she has
ever had. It
>  unlike any clitoral orgasm in that it comes (no pun intended)
from "a
>  deep inside the core of her being". Those were her words
>  that Tom Leonardi mentions in the book happened, in the exact
order he
>  it would.
>  My girlfriend can't get enough of it.
>  Highly recommend it.

I read the book and thought his attitudes and approaches with
woman was spot
on.  However, I haven't gotten great results from his technique
I've only tried it a few times with one woman)
>  Now obviously in this writing that you've just read, the
difference in
>  language I've used to describe the two views has been
>  Possibly you were mildly offended by the language I used in
>  manly view.  (If you are a woman you were probably revolted.)

I can handle the language.  I'm commenting on the language
because I think
your attitude is holding you back.  I think you might get a lot
more of the
sex you desire if you change your attitude.  Nice Guys get laid.
doesn't mean you have to be a spineless wimp (a good recipe for
Perhaps if you stopped obsessing and making it like sex is the
only thing
might find that sex is easier to get.  Desperation is not very
>Don wrote:
>What I mean, and meant (clearly, I think), is
>  that it takes work to get.

Maybe you'll experience more success when you stop thinking of
it as work and start thinking of it as play.


George: I'm quite new in all that NLP/SS stuff.  I read
somewhere that you all hold high in regard a book called "From Frogs to
Princes" so I went out and bought it. I was surprised to see that my local
Ottakar's (lifestyle bookshop in the UK) has it since it's a book of the
seventies. However, I can't find what you all found so interesting about the
book. I didn't find anything of interest in there. Can someone, please point
me to the relevant section of the book that I should read?

My Comment:  Actually it was Sisonpyh who recommended the book.  While I
have heard about it, I haven't read it so anyone out there who can comment,
please do so.


D.S.: Two things.  First, I'm going stop calling a sexually-motivated
meeting with a girl a 'date' or a 'meeting.'  I'm going to start thinking
about such a meeting and talking about such a meeting (around male friends)
with the term
'f-op'.  So for example, if I'm telling my boy I'm going to meet a brawd
somewhere, I'm going to say, I've got an 'f-op' with this chick today.  My
reasoning is that if somebody starts thinking by this term, they might get
out of the dating 'frame', (which I now realize does indeed exist (contrary
to my previous protestations)) and might start thinking about meetings with
girls as opportunities to fuck the girls, instead of 'dates' in which you
must court the girl and lavish the girl with unwavering attention.  I might
suggest others try out this term, 'f-op'.  If all of us use this term to
refer to 'meetings' or 'dates' with chicks and soon this term is all we use,
our thinking will probably become influenced by the term, which might
materially lead to getting laid more.

Second thing.  In my first f-op with a chick, in the first minute I see her
I use the following manufactured (sp.) story:
I'll exchange pleasantries and say how was your week, your weekend, last
night, etc., and then when she asks me, I say last night was crazy, I got in
at four a.m.  Then immediately this piques her curiosity and she inquires
about what I did last night, then I say that a college boy of mine was in
town and he threw a party last night (if the day is Sunday, which I try to
have most of my first f-ops on) at his parents' house, but then I say at
about eleven p.m. my friend and I and another guy from college just deserted
the party (read in the chicks' mind: excitement and spontaneity) and went
into "THE SCREENING ROOM" and talked until three in the morning.
This does a few things.  First, it's an interesting story that says you're
an interesting person and that you have an interesting and busy social life.
Second, when you say you went into "THE SCREENING ROOM," and you use just
that very language, and you don't introduce the fact that this guy's parents
have a SCREENING ROOM, it makes it seem like people having a screening room
in their house is no big deal to you -- and that means that someone having a
giant fucking mansion is no big deal to you.
And that will impress her.  And most importantly, it will impress her
without her even knowing that you intended to impress her.
Now this is LA, where people know what a screening room is.  So if screening
room might not be understood where you're at, maybe use "THE GUEST HOUSE."
That would probably work, as in, "We deserted the party and went to "THE
GUEST HOUSE" and talked until three in the morning.


I'm an Asian guy who happens to like dating and screwing white chicks. I
have tried my hand at replying to "voicemail adverts", and have also tried
recording an advert of my own. I always like to mention the fact that I'm
Asian when replying - I like to be honest. But I get a very low response
rate from these ads, even when using some SS tricks. Once when I forgot to
mention in a reply that I am Asian, the chick replied back pretty quickly,
after her phoning me and us chatting for a while, she asked me what I look
like, and I told her, and said I am Asian - She expressed surprise and asked
why I hadn't mentioned it before. I replied - honestly - that I usually do
mention it in my replies, and that it had slipped my mind on this occasion.
It didn't put her off, and we chatted more, we got on quite well, but then I
decided that she wasn't
what I was looking for and to not take it any further. But this started me
wondering - should I specifically omit to mention my race when replying to
voicemail ads - even just as an experiment? If so, how should I reply when
they ask why I didn't specify before? I have been toying with this for a
while, and I think I know what I want to do and say, but I'd be interested
to hear the views of others on this list.


Flyer Commenting on all of the following:  ("> Flyer:
>  I have been reading up a bit on the concept of
Social Proof, where it is
>  considered better to be seen with a chyck in public
than to be seen alone.
>  As most of us agree, HB's will see you as
"approved", hence you will
>  look more attractive in their eyes. I am currently
seeing what I consider a
>  "7" grade HB, and want to upgrade to a "9" (SHB).
My two part question is:
>  If I
>  use Social Proof, can I utilize a "7" to upgrade to
a "9"?? and if so, then
>  how does one proceed??? Aside from the obvious
bring her to places where the
>  "9"'s see you with your "7", what are the next
steps?? is there a website
>  that goes a bit more in-depth of this??

Social Proof would work best if you allow the 9 to see you with
lots of women, or if you are only with one woman make sure she is a 9 or 10.
If you are with the 7 it would help you with both the 7 and the 9 if the 9
you as a challenge for the 7.  If you ignore the 9 because you're with the 7
it will also give you bonus points with both woman.  When making yourself a
challenge don't be rude to the 7.   3 of the best things to take with you
when you want to meet babes are in order of effectiveness:
1) A Super Hot Babe
2) A puppy dog
3) A child"):
Flyer's comments on above:
The concept of being a challenge for chycks is a good general rule to
follow. There may be an exception. I don't know for sure, it's just a gut
If you live in an area where women are jonesing to land a husband, then they
may see the challenge dude as a waste of time. The reason being is that
types of chycks are desperate to get married, and are simply looking for a
poor slob with a low Cupid rating and is hungry for a woman in his life. I
have seen this before, and some indicators are the types of questions the
brawd asks you when you go out. She may be sizing you up, and if you show
that you are not in a hurry to get married, then being the scared little
mouse that she is, she'll be scrambling for some dude equally as desperate
as she is.
Some bros I know use the "I would like to get married, when I find the right
woman. . . " just say this because it really encourages the chyck that there
be hope.

I am beginning to have an ethical issue with this. I am beginning to feel
that men really should not consider dating a chyck that is say 28 years old
older (unless she's exceptionally beautiful and well preserved, which would
indicate she has a few more "hot looking" years to her) unless he's serious
about marrying her.

This just comes from a personal experience. I am currently seeing a 29 year
old, who really digs (worships is more accurate) me, but whom I am truly
indifferent to. I want her to be happy, yet the more time I spend with her,
the more that clock ticks, the more she deteriorates, etc.

I guess what I am saying here is that she is at the eleventh hour of her
"attractive years" and those should really be spent landing the dude who
will want to spend the rest of his life with her.


(Commenting on My Comment:  While I can see why you may think there are two
schools, I prefer to look at it like there are many, many different ideas
out there on this subject, including several people with their own systems
and others with their own individual ideas, tactics, strategies, etc."):

I tend to agree that there are two distinctive schools here being discussed.
However splitting them up would be extremely limiting.  I use both as do
most successful PUA's (I believe) although they may not know it.  While I
admit that you can describe much of SS as "Displaying Personality" and you
could describe much of PUA theory as not supplicating, I tend to see them
are really distinct concepts because the mindset and key steps are
NLP, as any good school of psychology does, has the advantage of being so
vague that you can explain away anything that doesn't fit into it.  Anyway,
I've learned a lot from Erikson and from Mystery and from Ross and from
ToeCutter and everyone else who posts info of value.  Not nearly as much as
I have learned by watching other local PUA's though.

More from NightLight9:
I generally have a rule about PUing at work, but I broke it the other day.
Not sure why, but I felt like I had to.  I think it was her huge tits (I
have a real problem with saying no to D cups) Here's the story:
The Friday before X-mass.  about half the company had already left.  I had
just changed into my ski clothes and I had walked outside my building
without my card key to get my snowboard.  When I came back I was locked out.
I saw this girl who is probably a 8 (I'll have to get a picture up...)
down the hall.  I knocked on the window and waived her over.  She let me in
and I thanked her as she turned and started to walk away.  I very
confidently introduced myself to the back of her head.  She turned and
introduced herself.  I repeated her name and memorized it.  I asked her what
she was still doing here.  She said she had work to do.  Fluffed/build
rapport in the hall by my office for about 3 minutes all while I worked on
getting my stuff into my office.  Then I told her to come in.  She did and I
made her sit down while I continued to fluff while concentrating on my
snowboard.  It was pretty obvious she was bored with being at work.  I got
up and hung up my jacket which required shutting the door.  I sat down again
and we fluffed for about 3 more minutes.  I negged her a few times and
slapped her thigh with a spatula I have in my office (a long story :-).  It
was obvious that she had a high opinion of her self, but also wanted
approval.  She was putting out a very strong persona, but I knew that it
belied a need to be stood up to and dominated.  I told her she was a pain in
the ass (in a clearly non-supplicative way) and continued to work on two
things at once.   We fluffed some more, but I was working in some very light
sexual stuff, and lots of knowing looks.  During this time, I kept myself
thinking in a very non-sexual way and maintaining desireless state.

Eventually, she said she had to go get back to work.  I stood up before she
did and I put out my hand.  I helped her stand, and she was about 8" from
me.  I leaned in and kissed her.  She was surprised but not overly.  We
started mack-ing (30 minute from first meeting to this point).  We kept
making out, no words were spoken (it's so important to be a good kisser).  I
was grabbing her back and head fairly forcefully (not to the point of
hurting her though.).  Eventually I pushed her up to door.  That's when I
went I closed the shades to my indoor window of my office and went up her
shirt. Both my neighbors were still in their offices :-)  About 5 minutes
later I got my hands down her pants.  From their on out, she was in ecstasy.
45 minutes after meeting her, she was blowing me in my office's guest chair.
After she finished, I put my jacket on my office floor and we cuddled.   35
minutes later I was hard again (that's pretty good for me), I took her pants
off the rest of the way and fucked on my office floor. I gave her a hard
time about the fact that she didn't expect to have sex when she opened the
door for me and that despite the fact that we just had sex, she didn't know
how to pronounce my name (she hadn't tried to say it and it's hard to
pronounce so I knew she couldn't). I took her home to my place after work,
and we fucked again.   The next morning we did it again and then I took her
home.  Turns out she is nineteen and I was her 3rd sexual partner (although
she was engaged for a while so she was certainly experienced...).

With some women it's almost like you can read their minds. It's not that you
just click, because it doesn't necessarily mean that you like them, or that
you just naturally say the right things.  It's just that I can totally
understand what they want, and you know what to say to give it to them (for
instance this one hasn't stopped talking about whether or not she is pain in
the ass).  I think this is my most impressive PU to date only because it was
so fast, it was at work during business hours.  Gives me hope on making the
mile high club with a passenger.

Even More from NightLight9:
First I wanted to say that Sisonpyh's modus operandi is almost exactly mine.
Right down to the no kino at the coffee bar thing.  When I read that and
his description of how it affects them, I knew we were using the same
technique.  It is totally a great way to disarm women, because they are so
used to men trying to push them one way or another, but you aren't like
other guys.

Second, Mystery get off the coffee thing.  It works for a lot of us.  I've
fuck closed coffee meeting many times, and it's easy to get a chick who just
a little interested to coffee where you can display more personality.  I
typically drink a tea (I don't drink coffee at all) and then either
spontaneously buy dinner fixings and take her back to my house for food, or
if I feel I still need a little more personality I say "let's go for a
and then I'll walk to a book store or something else and run an errand.
Then I take her back to my place.  Coffee is good on many levels.  Women are
very likely to say yes to it.  It's non-threatening.  It doesn't commit to a
long time together.  It shows that you aren't overly eager and are still
qualifying her. You are getting a commitment to do something, not just
getting a number.  It's cheap (at worst you're out two coffees, but more
likely your out 1).  It's fast so you can naturally move to the next step.
It's allows lots of convo.  It's not in the dating frame (as long as you say
"let's get coffee" and not "can I buy you a coffee"). It's close to your
house.  It's a way of life  here in Seattle and I think most US cities.
It's open ended about timing.  It requires further communication.  If she
stands you up (this has never happened to me on a coffee meeting) you are in
a good place to meet a replacement, although your mindset might be blown :-(

On the torch lighter, yeah those are cool at bars.  I also have a Zippo
style one that has fake leopard skin on it that works pretty well as a convo
starter, particularly if you can light with a trick move.  I just ordered a
torch one that has a laser pointer in it.

On MIXED SIGNAL THEORY - There is a chapter in the "the 48 laws of power»" on
this.  The laws name is something like never give more information than
necessary.  One of the examples is about trying woo a chick.

I saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" this weekend and there is great
lesson in there for dealing with HB's, particularly those with high bitch
shields.  In fact the young female lead role could be seen totally as a
metaphor for the life of a hot chick.  I won't get into unless someone else
seen it and wants to discuss, but basically she is treated specially by
everyone because of her talent.  She is bratty and dominates the people in
her life but she really wants to be dominated, she just can't find someone
worthy to do it so she cuts a swath through life trying to find that person.
One person almost dominates her romantically and there's a lot to be learned
by his actions as he plays her perfectly until he finally lets love get in
the way (unlike most movies that don't end without some bullshit about
professing your love in some pathetic confessional being the right way to
maintain a woman's interest).  Anyway, it's a great movie, with terrific
fight choreography and a really cool story.  All subtitles though which some
might find boring.  I also thought What Women Want was a pretty palatable
date film that didn't have a bunch of sloppy crap (he is a believable PUA
and the women's thought reading is pretty cool).


>When girls in clubs ask me for a lighter (or anything, like gum, etc.) I
>always say "It will cost you a kiss."
>Most girl immediately gladly kiss me on a chick. Some of them just say
>"Sure!" and kiss me on the lips. If I feel that the girl is receptive but
>intends to kiss me on a cheek I stop her and say "It's not a kiss". Then I
>get the kiss on the lips.
>If the girl looks indecisive, I just turn my cheek to her and point the
>finger. They always kiss then.
>Few girls refused to kiss me. I said "Sorry, baby, I'm greedy" and she
>get any lighter, gum or whatever. They smiled and said "It's OK" with full
>understanding that I have a right not to give them anything if they don't
>kiss me.

This is great stuff.  I usually give lights for free, but if a girl wants a
smoke then she has to make an animal noise.  Most of them start purring but
every once in awhile I will get a girl who is too cool to make an animal
noise.  I tell them "Sorry I can't give you a cigarette...but I can give you
a job and then you can buy your own!"


Mystery keeps repeating this concept. Shoes are something I've never been
concerned with. I would burn money on a nice leather jacket, than on shoes.
But, now I want to get some shoes for myself. I saw on LA Seminar video that
Ross has some nice snake skin boot.  Here is my question:
I am 5 8, and I almost always dress in polo shirt and slacks, rarely
jeans.  Should I get
-boot or shoes
-flashy snakeskin or stylish Feragamo?
I am quite excited about finding some snake skin boots, but would that
make me shorter?

My Comment:  I wouldn't worry about your height -- it's not something you
can change so why dwell on it?  And my advice is the same -- as long as what
you wear is clean and presentable, I don't think you need to be dressed like
Cary Grant.


Man, You could write a book, (rather a volume set,) on the understanding and
handling of the obstacle chick! I met a really nice girl last night named
Holly, strong vibe. We talked quite intimately for at least an hour while my
friend talked to Holly's friend, after which in Holly's absence her friend
told me she had a boyfriend. When they were leaving the bar I said, "It was
nice meeting you. I wont bother to ask for your number since I know you have
a boyfriend." She gave me a funny look and told me she didn't. I # closed
told her about her friend's comment, she said her friend was just protecting
her from guys hitting on her. I think this is BS and believe she was trying
to sabotage what she saw as a good thing, many of the things she said were
quite flaky.


>> When girls in clubs ask me for a lighter
>> (or anything, like gum, cigarette, etc.)
>> I always say "It will cost you a kiss."

Haha, yes! I remember a while back I explained
this routine to an Indian friend outside a club
who was always giving out cigarettes to girls.
It was so funny the difference: Now they kiss him,
and he says cockily "Ahh, but I didn't give you
permission to kiss me..."
>> Most girl immediately gladly kiss me on a chick.
>> Some of them just say "Sure!" and kiss me on the

Instead of allowing that, do a quick takeaway,
say to your friend:
"Hold on, what was that you were saying about
Tantric sex when this person so rudely interrupted?"
Since otherwise you're only qualifying her based
on her looks. The kiss should be her reward :)
>> If I feel that the girl is receptive  but
>> intends to kiss me on a cheek I stop her and
>> say "It's not a kiss".
>> Then I get the kiss on the lips.

Good: calling her on her absence of spontaneity.
Reminds me of a line I use:
How do you spell spontaneity?
If she starts to spell it, you know what to say.
>> If the girl looks indecisive, I just turn my cheek
>> to her and point the finger. They always kiss then.

Lowering your price??
Nooo, instead say: "Ohh! Such long hesitation...
due to inflation the price is now one kiss and
a neck massage."
>>Few girls refused to kiss me.
>>I said "Sorry, baby, I'm greedy"

(Sorry?? Don't apologize for your prices.)
Instead: "Have you ever wanted something so bad, you
would do anything to get it? As you think about those
feelings as we talk..."
>>and she didn't get any lighter, gum or whatever.
>>They smiled and said "It's OK" with full
>>understanding that I have a right not to give
>>them anything if they don't kiss me.

Not playful enough.
The kiss in itself is her reward, not the cigarette
or gum or whatever she asked for.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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