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Where do you draw the line in tweaking
1/6/01 8:32:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
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Here's a new site to check out called UK Seduction -
http://www.seduction.org.uk
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Maniac High:
Someone posted a request for PUA's 'systems'
to be documented. I just did this last month and put it on my page
(something called 'ManiacPlan'), which I have field tested and released.
It's at the top of my page, which is: Maniac's Free Seduction Webpage:
http://www.pickupguide.com
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Ross:
More on tweaking yourself: As everyone with wisdom says, we learn from
life. And we learn from the questions as much as the answers provided.
Yesterday, I was at the Coffee Bean, working on notes for an
upcoming event. I spotted a very hot chick in line; she looked like
a modern/hip-hop dancer to me. (Not a stripper, but a real, honest to
god professional dancer). Genuine dancer's body, lithe, flat tummy,
average small-boobs, fantastic posture and moved beautifully.
Anyway, her Marklar boyfriend gets in line behind her. He's about
10 years older than she is, and I notice:
1. He's got the perfect 3-day beard stubble, expertly trimmed. Not
clean shaven and he'll never grow a beard. How he gets it to look
that way, I'll never know.
2. He's got a large earring dangling from his LEFT ear.
3. He's wearing his sunglasses INSIDE the Coffee Bean and NEVER takes
them off(No one else was wearing sunglasses inside or out, so it's an
affectation or he's got a problem with bloodshot or light-sensitive
eyes).
4. He's got a huge tattoo across the small of his back.
5. He never smiles. I guess he's grouchy or needs his morning coffee
or SMILING isn't cool to the kind of women he wants to attract.
Here is my question for Sisonyph (hey, that's "hypnosis" in the
mirror!) and the rest of the gang:
If you knew it would get you even MORE hot women, would you wear an
earring, get a tattoo on your back, and wear sunglasses at all times?
Put another way: at what point does tweaking yourself to be cool in
the eyes of a certain kind of woman go too far for you?
Personally, I would NEVER get a tattoo even if it meant Naomi and
Neve Campbell would play mubledy-peg on my cock.
So...guys...where do you draw the line in tweaking your personal
appearance?
Ross (commenting on):
>To the guy who says that all the hot women in Toronto go out with guys that
>wear sneakers and cargoes I'm doing a mental inventory right now, and I'll
>say that maybe 2 out of the last 10 super hotties that I've dated would
have
>gone out with me if I'd have dressed that way, and 8 would not.
>
>Also, I'd like to add to what you've said and mention that the 'raver' type
>guys that some of these women date are usually ULTRA cool in their own way.
With respect, I think THIS is where the point gets missed; "ultra
cool" as perceived by "super hot" women. Again, it seems to me (and
maybe I'm just a chronic mismatcher) that the whole "style" here is
to tweak yourself to the umpteenth degree to fit a "super hot"
woman's perception of what "ultra cool" would be. It's sort of like
turning yourself into an erotic "Zelig" (for those of you who haven't
seen the Woody Allen film, go rent it. You might get what I am
talking about). So WHO is defining who and what we as men are going
to be?
What I'm not seeing in ANYONE'S discussion on this list is the
process of CONDITIONING and tweaking THEM so THEY become more the woman who
can receive MORE of the man you want to be, not the man you "cool-tweak"
yourself into. . And I'm also not seeing ANYTHING
discussed as a selection criteria OTHER than the woman being
"super-hot" looking.
We are using nuclear weapons with high-school selection criteria;
who's coolest, who's most beautiful, etc. etc. etc.
>They usually know their particular style and are super cool in their own
>way. It's not an accident. (Maybe you could tell us what brands, colors,
>etc. of sneakers and cargoes they wear, how they fit, what hair styles they
>wear, how they meet and approach the hotties, where they meet them, etc.
Again, my point is: how hot is a "hottie" if the most "cool" thing
about a guy in HER book is his brand of sneakers, cargoes, etc. etc.
etc. I'm not saying be a slob; no, in fact, be well groomed and take
reasonable care of yourself. But Jesus, what kind of mindlessness do
we want to cater to? Are we all aspiring actors going out on
auditions, desperate to land the role?
>
>By the way, thanks for the kiss for a light idea killer.
>
>1. Voice tone is VERY important. Work on developing a deep, resonant,
>musical, articulate voice tone. (Get on eBay and buy some voice training
>tapes and listen to the "Trouble Shooters" tapes from Ross Jeffries and
>listen to Orion talking about voice tone. Women find a sexy voice
>irresistible. This is a big one, guys. Can I hear an AMEN from those that
>know what I'm saying?)
Absolutely. Voice is important in any kind of influence and persuasion.
>2. Read "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway" by Susan Jeffers. This book is
>great for facing the concept of fear.
Susan Jeffers is my brother in law Larry's ex-wife. Isn't that a
mouthful? I've actually met her and she's a damn smart, pleasant
lady. And I can do a 5 minute phobia cure and whack-out someone's
fear instead of them having to fight their way through. But I like
her and I like her book anyway.
>By the way, by month 3 or 4, if they're not relationship material, they're
>usually not in the picture anyway, by MY choice. And they're always friends
>afterward, as I treat women well.
Uh, didn't you say you "NEVER give a woman what she wants"? And you
NEVER give a woman a straight answer? How is that congruent with
treating them well, if I might ask? Hmmm......
>He's the original 'Playboy'. He has the cash, the mansion, the friends,
>etc.
All the things you dreamed about....in HIGH SCHOOL!
>My Comment: I have a bug about this screening out process. I learned a
>long time ago that everyone has someone they are nice to. You can't live
in
>this world if you aren't (ok, there are exceptions, but I really don't
think
>you are going to find as many as are implied here among attractive,
>intelligent, well presented women). There is no question that many women
>react in illogical, often vile and hostile ways to guys who approach
them --
>this does not mean that if you had somehow or other gotten past that stage
>that you wouldn't find that same woman to be warm, intelligent and have
many
>excellent
>qualities. From what I can tell, the "screening out" process most of the
>time only results in eliminating a candidate; it doesn't deal with turning
>the situation (or somehow avoiding it completely) around and truly finding
>out if there is a person there worth knowing.
You miss my point; yes, I agree some women are having bad days on
the day we happen to want to meet them or are going through a bad
time or naturally are used to getting hit on so they have a shield
up. Bishy is a master of turning that last frame around and I've put
his tools to the test and made them even better for me personally!
I'm not talking about handling temporary bad responses, but
SCREENING out the drama whores, abuse-freaks, etc. etc. etc. If your
ONLY criteria or MAIN criteria is who makes the best picture on a
wall, then you are not screening for what makes a good, fun partner
or for what is going to make some difficult because of systemic
problems in their mind and life.
There are drama/turmoil whores who will NEVER appreciate good
feelings, whether produced by SS or anything else. How much are they
worth in pursuing or getting them to pursue you? Women with desperate
financial dilemmas, women looking for "orbiters" to prop up their
flagging egos, etc. etc. etc.
All this emphasis on "10's" is what disturbs me; how much can you do
with that beauty anyway? Use it to confirm your own skill and worth?
In that case, WHO really holds the power?
My Comment: I think we agree about the screening. I think perhaps living
in L.A. you see more "unworthy" ones that need to be screened out, whereas
as a general rule I think you will find people in Canada more down to earth.
However, I do have a big issue about your being disturbed about the emphasis
on "10's." A "10" is the Olympics, the World Series of women. To take your
own example of the beast with cookie crumbs in her moustache, there's no
great accomplishment in having success with a woman that doesn't do it for
you (and I suppose I should mention that what is a 10 to me is often not a
10 to others and vice versa, so personal preference really affects this
system). I also remember the example of the air traffic controller who
can't put two words together in front of a beautiful woman in a string
bikini (and I am still remembering how creative Rick was in turning that
into a pattern which he used on a super hot babe when we were out together
in L.A. after your last Palo Alto seminar). I think the whole point of this
exercise is to accomplish your dreams, to have what was thought
unattainable, to crash through those limiting beliefs about what you can
have in life. Sisonpyh and I have similar tastes in women (I know from when
we went out together in the past) and we are attracted by the best (again,
in our humble opinions, of course) and don't see a reason to settle. That
is not to say there aren't worthwhile people who aren't 10's. But if you
can't be with one YOU consider a 10 in all respects, aren't you just
settling and will ultimately end up dissatisfied and unhappy?
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Halbster (Commenting on Riker):
> Laughing and Playful (as above).
> Soulful, loving spiritual
> Fucking like Porn Stars
Amen
> This is also the reason that guys say shit like "I can't imagine saying
> THAT ROSS STUFF TO CHICKS'. Jeezus, guys - it's talking about feelings
and
> stuff. I sincerely hope that guys reading this get the SECURITY in
> themselves to be able to talk and express what they want. When it is
> appropriate, of course.
This is a key here. A woman thinks of you as deep, spiritual, intelligent,
interesting when you can do this stuff with insight. You can use it for
bonding. It takes a real man to do this. However, when you do this she
still wants to see a man. She doesn't want to see some guy who gets hurt
easily, or cries in a second. She wants a man with courage and strength who
can simultaneously open himself up and be expressive. It is best to start
out by being expressive of positive powerful emotions, and/or showing your
sensual side. i.e. I'm very passionate about protecting children and the
environment, or I just love how it feels when you get a massage and it goes
beyond all stress just melting away. Tension just ceases to exist, and it
is like you're just laying there waiting for the next area where the masseur
will
spread pleasure that penetrates right to your very essence.
> Hey - think of this guys (you ones who have a LOT of trouble).
> Lets say you are at a Mall. With your MOM. OK? You and Mom. Now, for some
> reason, you're are standing next to Mom, and a HOT chick is right there.
> Maybe asking you and Mom directions, helping you 2 in a store - whatever.
> You can talk to that HOT babe NO PROBLEM - right? Wanna know why? Because
> with MOM there (well, for most men .....) you are not "trying to pick the
> chick up". You are just being YOU (because after all, Mom IS there too.)
> See? No pressure, no "performance" thoughts (not talking about that in a
> bedroom context, more in a getting-to-the-bedroom context), and YOU are
> just YOU.
>
> See?
IMHO One of the most positive steps a guy could take is breaking out of this
mindset, and being able to turn Mom into a wingman. Imagine the impact of
your Mom saying "You look like a really nice girl and I'd fix my son up with
you, but he is probably too adventurous for you and I couldn't bear to have
him break another heart, especially since the last few were really crushed.
A guy with a healthy attitude toward woman and confidence can approach
anyone in front of Mom. In fact, having Mom there could be useful for
bypassing resistance. She'll feel much safer giving you a number when
you're with Mom.
Plus, you can use lines like "Hey, I can handle the embarrasment of your
not giving me the number in front of Mom, but I really hate the thought of
hurting mom."
Although, I don't think I've ever picked up a babe with mom present I would
definitely do it.
> I like the concept of the op, but I think I will use it as just a plain
op,
> and I will consider it an Op for both of us. I will use it in convo with
> both men and women and I think it will be a good convo progresser,
> particularly when you have really good rapport. Kind of like Riker's
Three
> rules. "I don't go on dates, but I do go on ops." "What's an Op?" "An
op
> is an opportunity for you and I to find out what kind of adventures we
might
> have..."
Explaining why you don't go on dates is an opportunity to convey your
Romantic Hero nature. You can tell her that dates: 1) are a form of
supplication, 2) they don't respect and disempower woman, and 3) dating
causes people to follow Rules and restrictions rather than just being able
to enjoy the moment, experience an adventure, share something joyful, deep,
passionate, and meaningful, or just have fun.
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Josh:
Commenting on My Comment: ("If you are too slick, polished, etc. this
can backfire and they think you've got another woman in your bed every
night. But if you throw a little nervousness or embarrassment into the
picture
-- bingo, you're a real person with flaws and suddenly very appealing
because she feels a little safer than if you said ALL the right things."):
As someone who has tried to apply PUA for the past 3 months, this is a big
problem for me... I am not in the right state of mind a lot of the time, and
come
off as inexperienced/nervous. But when I am on, I will do/say things to
overqualify myself. I have used Mystery's stuff before and got a "WOW!"
from girls...it's flattering but not really a good thing I think...
Josh continues, commenting on the following:
Halbster on Mystery:
>All that I've read from you is your one-liners. I
would like to know ALL your routines: The Elvis
script, the Tangerine opener - everything. If
you could give me some info on how I can find them
out, please let me know. Right now, you are my
modeling guru.
"And we will hear from you in a while saying "I said
exactly what Mystery said and it did not work".
"Why not? Because you are NOT him."
(Josh's Comment begins here): With all due respect I think you are
completely wrong. I have studied Mystery's stuff extensively, and
everything he has said, from routines to witty one-line comments, has worked
for me beautifully.
Actually they are helping me land a bi-sex teen model right now online (she
is 2000 miles away but I'm moving to her city in a couple months to live
with
some friends...)
I really doubt certain aspects of his CHARACTER would fit in with most guys
that read this list, i.e. the black nails, illusions, etc. BUT if you are
serious
about the game, reading up on him on fas.speed-seduction.com» is like a free
seduction course. If some of the "gurus" would put a price on those
archives it would be well over $100.00.....
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Devil Boy:
from the dark recesses of my mind......
fluff fluff
Her: " So, how old are you"?
Me: (looking like you're slightly insulted) "That's an odd question...well I
guess it is-people really
never ask, so I guess that requires a clever response-huh? Let's
see.....I'm old enough to
know better! How's that?
Her: No come on really, I'm just curious.
Me: Really, you don't seem like the type of person that would judge somebody
based on their
age. So let me ask you....how old do you think I am?
Her: Oh, I don't know....maybe 34-35 ish.
Me: And is that a problem?
Her: No, why should it be?
Me: I don't know, most people(point) are so superficial these days you know.
You know, if you
were to tell me that you were older than me for example, I don't
think I would enjoy your
company any less. I mean, it's what comes(SP).....inside you that
really matters-right?
Besides, when you meet someone (SP.) that you really connect
with(insert any bullshit
line here with her hot words) then what's a few years one way or the
other? But that was
a good guess. And if you absolutely have to know, I will admit to
being 36. Most people
give me the benefit of the doubt and guess a little lower but I guess
that's what they see
inside.
Her: Well, since you're only 36 I guess I'll let you fuck me!
Me: : )
What do you think?
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Alan:
> Kallisti:
> I had an interesting experience last night, and while I did not
> close her then, I definitely believe that I have set the frame
> correctly.
...
> I tell her that I thought that she was interesting and I would
> love to get together with her so that we could learn more about
> each other. She looked interested, but I was going to wait
> until she offered me her number, I waited 8-10 seconds and
> since she had not realized what she was supposed to do,
I'm not surprised at this. Think about the language you are using.
You are making statements about yourself, about how you feel and
what you would like - self-disclosure.
She was listening and processing your statements, building up a
model of you in her head. And expecting you to continue in that
self-disclosing mode. Hence the pause.
To get her number, you can either
(a) ask her for it;
(b) set her a "problem" to solve, where the solution to that
problem is for her to give you her number;
(c) tell her to give it to you.
After a delay, you did (a). RJ suggests (b) - "what steps can we
take to continue this another time?".
FWIW, I do (c): "tell you what, give me your number and we'll get
together".
When I do (b), I say something like "Let's do something together.
How can I reach you?"
> I gave her a hint, "Why don't we exchange numbers?"
> She said yea that sounded like a great idea, told her that I
> didn't have a pen, but I would go find one. I started to go get
> it, then acted like I just had the realization that I had a
> cell phone and I could store her number there. (I like this
> because it seems more spontaneous)
I don't like this myself because it would feel like I'm making a
big deal over her number; that I don't have the confidence to get
it from her deliberately and instead I have to hide behind a
"spontaneous" routine; it would also make me look like a cell
phone newbie.
So I wouldn't use it. But if it works for you, then I can't argue
against it. What works is the ultimate test.
> I then
> gave her the phone rules.
> I was getting ready to go and another guy came up and started
> trying to close. He walked up and began begging for her phone
> number. She was kinda hesitant and I had a funny idea, I said,
> "Oh, that is cute, wait one second, I'll be right back."
> I went and grabbed a napkin and a pen, I then went back and
> said they should exchange numbers.
> My logic was that I didn't want to block the guy, at least not
> in an overt way. I feel that this put me into a new category
> in her mind as someone that is extremely confident, a person
> with so much game that no one else is a threat to me.
No, to me this "helpful" gambit smacks of effort, of someone
covering his tracks. It seems a bit supplicative to me.
I would've said nothing, shared a smile with her, and let the guy
twist in the wind. I would've let the contrast between him and me
(in #close style) speak volumes.
And while he was fumbling, I would've touched her arm lightly to
grab her attention, while saying "Got to go. I'll call you". And
leave smoothly, while the other guy was still fumbling.
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Trip Hop:
> he was gonna call her and he said maybe, and I asked him what would
> happen
> and he said if he called her again it would be on. I think SOME
> supplication has merit...IF you can bring it back in the right
> direction...What do you think?
Are you saying that it's ok to let her flake on you the first time and
then grab control later on? This can't work cause she will never give you
the second chance, once she sees that you'll take her shit. PLEASE
EXPLAIN.
My Comment: I think you missed the point.
Firstly, it is not ok to let her flake on you -- the flaking was being done
by the guy (Craig's friend Phil) in exactly the same manner as women do to
us. That's why he asked if it sounded familiar.
What he was talking about taking control later on about was "SOME
supplication" but I am not sure that's exactly the right term. What was
being done was that the guy was asking her out in a somewhat AFC manner
(e.g.. I am taking a chance making a complete fool of myself....) only to
get
under her radar of looking out for guys who are too slick. Then, once in,
to take control.
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Spanther: I noticed as I read that your discussions are geared towards
a male audience. I am a female and interested in learning techniques to
apply in relationships with men. Can you suggest a website or give me
information on where to look. Most sites on seduction are for MEN to seduce
a WOMEN and not the opposite. This is what I'm looking for, can you help?
I guess my problem is not so much of finding a man but what I find difficult
is to keep them interested. MOST men want to have intimate relations but
they would have those same relations with other women. I want to be able to
seduce a man in a way that he only desires me! I want that man to think
only of me during the day and long for me all the time. I want to be the
most beautiful, desirable woman to the man. Nowadays more women are
throwing themselves at Men and it's very easy for a man to be with multiple
women, well I want to STAND OUT from the rest; I want to possess something
unique that no other woman has.
I would also like to use techniques for other areas in my life like work and
use techniques to find or enhance my talents. I see others that are
successful and like what they're are doing in life and I want to be in the
same position. Anything that you have or can recommend will be helpful.
I'm looking for a start but all I see is seduce women, hypnotize women, make
HER want to have sex with you. In most cases I believe women want the same
advantage in this area as men.
My Comments: My first thoughts are that you need to learn about hypnosis,
which may prove to be what you are looking for once you are involved with a
guy. I recommend you consider something from Major Mark at www.trucor.com,
as I am sure you will find that he is a highly qualified and capable
hypnotist. You could just call up their number and talk with him or his wife
Cassi -- I am sure they'd be interested to help you.
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Jeff:
I bought Ross' course 3 years ago. Before that I had never had a real
girlfriend and could never approach girls outside of a club.
Since then I've had a couple relationships with some pretty beautiful women
and I can now approach a woman in just about any setting.
However I am definitely not having outrageous success in seducing women.
And I've read the book, listened to two different seminar tapes, done the
Unstoppable Confidence exercises more then once, and like I said I approach
women all the time. But I still have trouble getting women to even meet me
for coffee and if I'm not with someone will go months without getting laid.
Also I have to say that from the women I have seduced only about 25% of it
was from listening to Ross' stuff, another 25% was from talking to Brother
Soul, and I would say 50% came from reading posts by Bishop and about 90% of
that was just using poems of his.
My Comment: I sure seems like you are making progress and have access to
the best help out there. I suggest you get the archives of this list (which
are free) and just keep practicing.
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David Shade: The book "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill was recommended
on your list. I recently read this book, and it is outstanding. It is an
absolute Must Read for all Pick Up Artists. Simply replace every
occurrence of the word "money" with "sex." It is attitudinally totally
kick ass.
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TDK599:
> George: I'm quite new in all that NLP/SS stuff. I read
> somewhere that you all hold high in regard a book called "From Frogs to
> Princes" [...] However, I can't find what you all found so interesting
about the
> book.
The point this book makes is that you can get to the heart of everyone's
disease and crack it up with language. The interviewer is confronted with a
person that has a certain problem and is willing to get away with it. Now,
he tries to find out what the problem really means, what it consists of, the
triggers that make it appear and what use the client gets out of it. This
book shows you how people can analyze themselves and get to the point of
their behavior when they are guided by a master. See?
> Then immediately this piques her curiosity and she inquires
> about what I did last night, then I say that a college boy of mine was in
> town and he threw a party last night (if the day is Sunday, which I try to
> have most of my first f-ops on)
OK, you tell an artificial story about your friend's GUEST HOUSE? So you
have to delay the meeting with that gorgeous gal until Sunday which of
course heightens your ability to perform well on Saturday. Or you just stay
at home because you have that f-op on stack for tomorrow, great. Then you
tell her you spent last night with one of the richest guys in town so you
can easily afford her a fancy drink or drink or two, right? You are such a
jerk. I hope she won't tell you her made-up story about the stud she has
blown yesterday in his pizza-car. But I cannot understand why you waste your
party when you can spend everyday in any screening-room.
> > > NEVER let them sense that you're interested.
Bullshit. Never let them sense that you're intimidated. Interest is
interesting! Passion. Hot. Hot.
> Yes, being calm is definitely helpful.
Did you notice it takes lotsa practice to be calm without being
misinterpreted? You can not not communicate..
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