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I had to catch the pizza
1/16/01 8:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time

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GameMaster:
In answer to Marc's Q about what motivates us......."PAIN" : )

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Tristan would like to make it clear that the quote about neg hits that
appeared in the last email was something he found on the internet that was
written by Mystery.

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Cramias:
>Does anyone out there have good routines for AOL personals? They seem to be
>a different beast than other personals... the girls get many more responses
>(one stripper I met IRL from AOL said she got over 100 emails a day) and SS
>just doesn't seem to cut it when responding to their ads.
>

Let me make a suggestion here.  I once used an idea in the layguide, which
was to post a personal ad as a female.  I did this for two reasons: 1) I
wanted some idea of my competition, and to steal any ideas from the
responses that I thought I could use, and 2) to get some idea of what girls
go through when they post a personal ad, so I could demonstrate an
understanding of their reality.  I set up a screenname and posted two ads,
one on Love@AOL and one at AOL digitalcity.  In 3 days I got 400+ responses.
 I am not kidding or exagerrating at all here.  All of the responses seemed
to fall into one of two categories:

1. "Hi.  I'm looking for casual sex." or even worse, "Hi, I'm a married man
in Ohio, and I'll be in your city on business.  I'm looking for an affair."
No bullshit, just straight out solicitations for sex.

2. "Hi, I'm , I live in , I work at , etc Write back if
you're interested."  Complete AFC attitude of 'here I am, this is who I am,
now please like me'

So I use that knowledge now.  My typical personals response starts like
"Something about your ad caught my attention, so I thought I'd write you
this.  I'm 21, a student, living in Tucson.  I could go on to give you more
facts about myself, like my height (6'0"), etc, but I have a feeling that
most of the barrage of guys who responded to your ad just gave you a list of
facts about themselves, in the desperate hope that you might see something
you like, and I'd like to set myself apart from that crowd.  That is not
what I am about.  What I am about is..." then I got straight into standard
SS, challenges and patterns.  (I posted a fuller version of this to ASF
recently).

It is my experience that SS can and does work in responding to personals,
but to just go straight into process language is a recipe for disaster.
Gain rapport first by demonstrating an understanding of her reality, and
you're likely to see a much better response.

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Sisonpyh:
DAMMIT! I'm learning so much from you guys right now! Love it...

(Responding to this from Mark)
>From your comments in previous issues, especially the one where your female
>friend recommended Lady Chatterly's Lover as a guide to the female psyche,
>I sense that you are interested in exploring deeper structures of women's
>romantic psychology. If that is the case, Women and Desire by Polly
>Young-Eisendrath may be an interesting read for you. It's a well-researched
>book by a woman, who is also a psychoanalyst, feminist, Buddhist and
>Jungian. The analysis of the influence of society on female desires and
>power is intelligent, insightful and brutally honest. In fact, curiously,
>in many ways, it reminds me of Ross' train of thought of setting a woman
>free to be everything what she wants and more. In case you are interested,
>I could write up a decent review once I have read it fully.

Thank you, I just ordered the book... and I'd love to have a synopsis from
you... I'm sure that I'll learn a lot from it. Any other great book
recommendations with a quick description, guys?

(Responding to this question from Mark)
>Therefore, my question is directed towards those who have developed a high
>skill level. Are there special changes, events or realizations on your
>journey that you have found to be very important to become who you are now?
>And in what order did you become aware of those?

My Response: I love the way you think... It's making me think...
Let's see...
1) Special Changes:
One big change is I don't ask women for permission to do things, and I don't
look to them to lead what's going to happen. I used to kind of watch what
they were doing, and take cues on how to act... now I do and say what I
want, and look for cues from her so I know when to bust her balls.
2)Special Events:
Well, one special event was a combination of about 50 events... I spent a
long time learning how to get phone numbers from women, only to realize that
this wasn't the same as getting laid. Then, I learned how to get women to
come over to my house, only to realize that this wasn't the same as getting
laid. I finally realized that I have to lead the way the entire time... just
like in ballroom dancing. I have to know where we're going, and lead the way
the entire time.
3)Special Realizations:
My most important one is that THIS IS MY REALITY, AND SHE IS A GUEST. Not
the other way around. If a woman tries to play a game with me, put me off,
give me an excuse, etc. I've started laughing out loud at them. At first,
they don't know what's going on... but then I say something like "Cummon...
what, are you kidding? Give me a break." This tells them that their little
ploys aren't going to even get by my radar... nevermind into my reality. I
never get upset at them or let them get to me emotionally (this is key,
because if they sense that they've found a button, they'll use it over and
over again). As my friend Eric once said "YOU'RE IN MY REALITY NOW."

(Response to this from Optimus)
>Optimus:
I have a question for the group.  Many of us agree that women want a man
that they can't control.  They want a man who is in control of himself among
other things.  And that the way they figure out if they can control you or
not, or if you're in control or not, is to test you.  If you pass her tests
in a way that makes you appear to be someone she can't control, then she
becomes more attracted to you, etc.  Many guys fail because they supplicate
and give in to her demands and so forth, and in general most women don't
want a guy who will supplicate to her.  What I wonder is, why is it, that
sometimes guys can supplicate and "pass" very few tests, and will still end
up in a relationship with an HB?  We've all had relationships like that
prior to learning about SS or PUA, where we supplicated like every other
typical AFC.  How does that happen?  Or maybe we know a friend who is
involved in a relationship with a hot chick and he supplicates, gives in to
her demands, and she has the upper hand in the relationship.  How does this
sort of thing happen, when women are supposed to be attracted to men who are
in control and don't supplicate?  Shouldn't women be turned off by a guy who
is weak and constantly supplicates to her?  To be honest, this has me
baffled.  The only answer I can think of, is the women who actually are
attracted to guys who supplicate and aren't in control are really just
manipulative chicks who get off in having boy toys that they can control
like puppets.  Am I right?  Either that, or they simply have never met a man
who would call her on her bullshit, not supplicate, and be totally in
control of himself, and that they just accept reality as that she will
ALWAYS have power over men, and men will always give in to her just because
that's "how it is."

I mean, I look at some of my friends relationships and the frame is totally
wrong.  And I just can't figure it out.

Sisonpyh's response: This is a damn good point, man...
First, let me point out that when I'm meeting women, I'm almost NEVER
thinking about a 'long term relationship' with them. If I like them, and
later they prove to be someone that really amazes me, then this will be a
possibility. I've worked on GETTING LAID, not meeting a girlfriend... so
this might be why my opinions will be outside of that framework. But to
answer your question, my guess is that strong, exceptional, interesting men
who are in control of themselves and their realities are as rare for women
as super hot women are rare for men... see where I'm going with this? Said
differently, "Why do so many men settle for average or worse looking women?"
I think the logic goes both ways... I mean, I know quite a few ass-kicking
men... but this is because I've literally spent years finding and making
friends with them. Most women aren't lucky enough to run across one... and
when they do, they usually fuck it up by being a bitch or uninteresting. So
they just settle for whatever the best option is at the moment... and often
wind up getting comfortable in the process.

Another interesting point that I've noticed lately... many of the marriages
that I know of that have lasted for many years (10+) have something in
common: A woman that subtly controls the man. I mean, think about the plot
of most romance novels: Woman meets wild man, woman tames man and lives
happily ever after with her new well-behaved BOY. You're talking about
having a 'relationship' and I'm talking about getting laid... big diff. But
that was a great question.

(Responding to Marc)
Marc.:
Sisonpyh recommended a number of books without mentioning the authors.
Who are the authors of these books?

Bad Boys by Carole Lieberman (?) YES
Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women by Jayne Ann Krentz (?) YES
How to Succeed With Women By Being A Jerk by F. J. Shark
Endless Rapture by Hazen

***The best place to find used and out of print books is Half.com.

My Comment:  I think the F.J. Shark book has a different name which escapes
me for the moment.  And it is out of print and hard to find.

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Alan:
> Marc:
...
> > Alan:
> > I'm just about to LJBF a chick who is low drive and who
> > "doesn't have much sexual experience" (her words).
> > She has little experience, IMHO, because she has little
> > interest. So she fails my screen. I like her: she's smart and
> > educated, she has integrity, she's interesting to talk to. But
> > for me, spending sarging/sexual time with her would be a waste.
>
> Alan, I am assuming that you haven't been with her sexually yet,
> the following comments are not directed at you, but more of a
> general observation. And since sexual adventurism seems to be a
> major screening criteria for many men on this list, perhaps the
> women on Clifford's list can comment on it as well.
>
> She has to have had an incredible sexual experience to feel the
> desire to do it again. Desire only arises when something was
> pleasurable or satisfying, and has now gone missing.

I disagree. IMHO, sexual desire is an appetite. In some chicks it
is naturally high. In some chicks it is naturally low (apart from
temporary exceptions like periods of limerance).

I want to screen out chicks in whom desire is low. I don't care
why it is low - past sexual abuse, low hormone levels, unfortunate
social conditioning - I still don't want her.

I'm not interested in trying to rescue chicks and "fix them up".
Among other things, I want a chick who loves to fuck as much as I
do. If she has a luke-warm sexuality, then I'll NEXT her. I'm not
going to waste my life in luke-warm sexual relationships. I've
learnt the hard way just how miserable it will make me.
> Polly Young-Eisendrath suggests that women feel
> guilty about their lack of desire, even though their lack of
> enjoyment is the real problem (in Women and Desire, an
> interesting book that deals amongst other things with society's
> influence on women's social programming). This would also partly
> explain Sisopyh's success, he personally creates the desire for
> more.

Here is what happens in a low-drive chick. She meets a man who
excites her. Her hormones, and the neurotransmitter soup in her
head, turn on, harder than normal.

For a TEMPORARY period, she fucks and sucks more than usual.
She's "in love". Strictly speaking, she's enjoying the euphoria of
limerance. Chances are, he's in limerance too. Normally, the mutual
euphoria serves as a relationship glue while the two of them get to
know each other and decide whether or not to commit to each other.

The euphoria fades. Life returns to normal, and their sex drives
return to normal. Hers returns to its usual low level (she's a
low-drive chick, remember). Sex doesn't feel important to her now.

Sure, she still likes it, But she just doesn't feel like it as
often, and as intensely, as she did at the start of the
relationship.

This isn't about suppression or social conditioning. It's about
biochemistry in a healthy well-functioning individual. She just
doesn't feel like it as much, and that's part of who she is.

I say, fine. Let her find some low-drive guy. My best wishes to
them both. I want what I want and it's not her.

Now, some PUA's might like to play the limerance period, and dump
the chick when one or both parties start to lose interest (the
limerance is fading).

Me, I'm mainly after an LTR with naturally high sex drive. I want
a chick who will still love to fuck even AFTER limerance fades.
And I'm doing my best to screen intelligently for what I want.

Some chicks take great exception to my attitude, that I would LJBF
a chick just because she isn't sexy enough. They would rather I
play the Nice Guy, deny my own self, and commit to a low-drive
chick even though it would make me unhappy.

Now that I'm older and wiser, I know better. What I want is
legitimate. If a chick doesn't like it, then that's fine. LJBF.

Her dislike of what I want is HER problem. I refuse to make it MY
problem. NEXT.
> Optimus:
...
> What I wonder is, why is it, that
> sometimes guys can supplicate and "pass" very few tests, and will
> still end up in a relationship with an HB?  We've all had
> relationships like that prior to learning about SS or PUA, where
> we supplicated like every other typical AFC.  How does that
> happen?  Or maybe we know a friend who is involved in a
> relationship with a hot chick and he supplicates, gives in to
> her demands, and she has the upper hand in the relationship.
> How does this sort of thing happen, when women are supposed to be
> attracted to men who are in control and don't supplicate?
> Shouldn't women be turned off by a guy who is weak and constantly
> supplicates to her?

What's it all about?
It's about childhood attachment.
A chick who is like this - distant, controlling, hooks up with
supplicating guys - had parents who enmeshed and overwhelmed her.
Growing up, this chick developed - was forced to develop - a style
of relating which was distant. Otherwise she'd lose all sense of
herself, due to the lack of boundaries in her parents.

Having grown up in that kind of family, and having learnt to relate
to people, especially men, that way, she now hooks up with certain
kinds of guys.
Guys who feel "familiar" to her, guys she understands and knows how to
deal with. She hooks up with supplicating guys who want to enmesh
her, whose idea of love is a near-total merging with her. Guys who
have poor boundaries.

That situation is familiar to her. She feels comfortable with it
and knows how to deal with it. By being distant and controlling.

Now, the guy she goes for has a complementary attachment style.
He grew up in a family where he was starved of attention and
nurturing, where his parents, especially his mother, were distant
and controlling. So he developed a style of relating which is
almost the exact opposite of the chick: desperate for approval,
always wanting more: closeness, attention, reassurance.

So he hooks up with a certain kind of chick. One who feels
"familiar" to him. He hooks up with a chick who is controlling
and distant.

The situation is familiar to him. He feels comfortable with it
and knows how to deal with it. By being clingy and desperate.

So both parties replicate their childhood dramas. As children,
they both missed out on proper nurturing, and one of the
dynamics of their relationship is that they are struggling to
get the nurturing from each other that they missed out on as
children.

In other words, the two of them carry unmet childhood needs into
adult relationships, and try to satisfy them there.

Some people do this successfully, and later move on into healthier
relationships. Some people stay stuck in their childhood pattern
all their adult lives.

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Halbster:
> Therefore, my question is directed towards those who have developed a high
>  skill level. Are there special changes, events or realizations on your
>  journey that you have found to be very important to become who you are
now?
>  And in what order did you become aware of those?

Yes, there are major events and realizations.  I think that these are unique
for each individual.  The one consistency is that the more people you meet,
the more you play and experiment, the more of these realizations you have.
Some of these realizations come from being an observer of other people's
experience, some come from screwing things up, some come from doing things
differently than you usually do them, and many come by accident as your out
doing.  One realization that never ceases to amaze me is woman are much more
willing to have sex than most people realize.  It is as if they're just
waiting for permission to take off their good girl mask and get permission
to
just have fun and be their truest self.  One of the challenges this creates
for us is how to structure an environment and opportunity that invites them
to remove their mask.  I think this is demonstrated very well by Major
Mark's
old classic pattern about how Married woman are robbed of their sexuality by
American culture, and it just isn't fair because marriage shouldn't mean
frigidity, a married woman can be the same sexy woman she was before she got
married, with the same wants, needs, desires, and fantasies.
And married women are being denied while there husbands are given the
unreasonable expectation of fulfilling all the roles necessary in her life
while very often the person a woman needs as a friend, provider, husband,
and father is very different than the person she needs and desires as a
lover,
and adventurer, the rogue warrior in her life. yada yada
>  Halbster:
>  Recently, a special friend sent me the following:
>  > The minute I heard my first love story
>  > I started looking for you, not knowing
>  >
>  > how blind that was.
>  >
>  > Lovers don't finally meet somewhere.
>  >
>  > They're in each other all along. - Rumi
>
>  Rumi was one of the greatest love poets that ever lived, and he is well
>  worth
>  checking out.

My reply to Karla...
Rumi is classic
Rumi is timeless
Rumi is one of my favorites
Rumi was beautiful when I first discovered Rumi
When I met you Rumi became alive
Getting to know you, I've learned to understand Rumi at deep levels
> (4) I agree that you should never give her a direct answer (unless the
>  answer is NO), but don't be EVASIVE. Again, there's a fine line. Being
>  evasive creates MISTRUST, as if you're hiding something. So you give her
an
>  answer, with a spin, just enough for her to feel that she kind of got an
>  answer but not 100%. She has to feel that it's hard to pin you down.

One thing that I like to do sometimes is I'll give them the truth and be
very
open about something that they aren't expecting -- usually something with
sex
or relationships.  I'll tell them exactly where I stand or what I'm doing.
i.e. I'm seeing other woman. etc.
However, I'll be mysterious, ambiguous and evasive about something trivial
i.e. going out for a slice of pizza. i.e. I gotta go do something now.  I
gotta go
I'll call you tomorrow Bye.  Tomorrow comes and she wonders what I did.  I
tell her I had to catch the pizza place before they closed.

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