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"Looks and laughs"

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Looks and laughs
2/3/01 12:32:30 PM Eastern Standard Time


Ohw and I have been having a private email discussion about looks and how
important they are in terms of being successful with women.  Below is the
essence of that discussion, as I feel this is a major issue with many guys.

Ohw: Originally, my email was a short question about whether looks do
matter, doubting whether this would help since all the guys may be good
looking (compared to me) to begin with and it isn't really the SS or
whatever that is making them successful with women.

My Comment:  I understand what you are saying about your looks.  Believe me,
I have been there.  I have undergone a massive transformation over the years
and look better today than I ever did.  And I can tell you without question,
that I was getting more women when I was not as attractive as I am now.  I
know how
hard it is to believe, but it really is not your looks.  Take a look at a
recent post on my list -- a guy put an ad in as a woman and got over 400
responses.  Women find it hard to find a "man" -- there are lots of guys out
there that don't have the qualities they are looking for, and while they do
like good looking guys I can assure you that most of those guys blow it most
of the time because they don't behave in a way women find desirable.

I am glad we are getting into a discussion of this on my list because I know
there are a lot of guys in the same situation as you (I was one of them) who
think their looks are holding them back.  I have a lot of stories of
unattractive guys getting the best looking women and ugly guys knowing how
to get women turned on and I am totally convinced that looks may open the
door, but they won't get you inside unless you know how to move to the next

Ohw: By looking on ASF, it really seems as though the best are just plain
good looking and/or already pretty 'cool' PERIOD.
I don't notice any writers that are bad looking.  Most PUA's that even bring
it up seem to be humble and say that they aren't  models and they aren't
that good looking, but that just means they are average.
Average is still a lot better than me (snip of explanation, I'm worse than
average) and hearing about that doesn't help me much.
Some are good looking but don't really mention it.  I guess they don't
really think about it and assume everyone else is at least average or
better. I don't blame them, they probably live in a totally different world
and they don't even think about it.  This in turn makes me suspicious of the
advice out there and I have to discount a lot of it.  I could give a
specific example, but I'm not sure if anyone wants it.

A way for you guys to picture it would be to imagine if Tom Cruise was
writting field reports.  How helpful would they be to you? And he didn't
even bother to mention that he was Tom Cruise?  That is exactly my situation
when I look at a lot of what is on ASF or this list, relative to me.  I
think a lot of the PUA's ARE Tom Cruise.  (And I have to figure out if I
should discard posts from this particular poster because they don't mention

Kind of like how an 'HB' looks at the world differently than a 'UG', HB's
don't even understand the world of the UG, and any advice they would give to
a UG off the top of their heads would not ever help the UG.  HB's are just
used to their world.  That's kind of how I think it is when I'm reading some
parts of ASF or here.

Apparently there were at least some bad looking guys in Japan, but that
place seems to be much easier, or at least a lot different. Anyway, I think
those examples don't apply that much in the U.S.  There apparently isn't a
bad looking PUA in America.   So far, at least on ASF or here.

On ASF, one guy mentions how he's a natural, good looking and many women
throw themselves at him to begin with (but he doesn't mention it in every
post, and how many others don't mention it).  Some other guys are musicians,
others have been into seduction since age 13 (must have been pretty good
starting off), are entertainers, magicians, motivational speakers, etc.
Even without that, they're still above average.

I am not trying to make less of what they have contributed, but I repeatedly
wonder if I should bother at all, since there is no one as bad as me who
gets results.

I have searched on fastseduction archives for the occasional guys who do
seem to be bad looking who post, but they don't mention any positive results
and eventually disappear.  All of them that I've found, at least.

The factors above make me doubt even SS, patterns, etc. (All the guys are
pretty good to start off with, maybe they are just attributing it to SS or
NLP).  I think an average guy who tries enough with any method would do
pretty good.  (Note: I'm worse than average.)

So I end up always wondering whether I'm wasting my time.

My Comment:
The hardest part is that you have to completely convince yourself that you
are that man that they are looking so hard to find (not to say that I have
totally done this myself, but I know this is a big part of it) and, like an
actor on stage, if you believe it, they will believe it.

This could be the missing part I need.  Is this advice
applicable/recommended for absolutely everyone?

My Comment:
Somewhere in my archives of the old posts of these emails is a story of a
man I met through business who was shot down during the Korean War.  He was
burned over something like 85% of
his body (remember, I met him myself in person - this is not a story I heard
from someone).  It was hideous to look at him -- his face had basically been
melted off, you could see more of a skull than a face.  He had slits for
eyes, no hair, scars, I can't even begin to tell you how hard it was to look
at him in the face.  He spent one or two years in the hospital and had
countless operations.

After this happened to him, he made a fortune in real estate and radio
broadcasting, met and married a beautiful woman and had nine kids with her
(I met one of his sons).

I am not going to tell you that this is easy.   I can assure you (because I
was the same way) that even guys who are reasonably good looking have a lot
of self doubt and suffer similar negative self talk even if they are
successful sometimes (in spite of themselves).   And I used to hang around
with a guy nick-named Dr. Testosterone who I met through SS who is extremely
good looking and I can tell you he struck out much more than he was
successful (and he was pretty good at SS).  And I can tell you other stories
of guys who are overall considered very successful with women who have
struck out repeatedly in front of me.

Believe me, if looks were the only thing that mattered these guys would
almost never be refused -- not only that, but some of these guys have a lot
of game, know and are good at SS, and they still strike out plenty.  Not to
say that they aren't successful plenty of times, but I am just trying to
show you that it isn't what you think it is.

Max (who you will read about in my archives) is nothing to look at and he
gets laid more than anyone I know.  And he doesn't have a lot of game --
he's just a funny guy who is persistent and won't let women push him around
(too much).

Good looking women are constantly being approached.  Men's looks blur in
these circumstances -- they keep meeting guys who only want sex and many
women just aren't getting what they want out of a relationship.  Haven't you
ever met someone who as you got to know them their looks became irrelevant?
As Ross has said, the gold coin of the realm is feelings, not looks.  Make
them feel good and they will give you everything.  Act as if you are good
looking and they will believe it too (this is lesson #1 in every acting
class -- if you believe it, the audience will believe it).

I truly understand how difficult it is to win this battle -- as I said, I am
not where I want to be either but I have gotten past my old hang ups about
my looks and I have also conquered probably 90% of my own negative self
talk.  This took years.  But it can be done.  And I am sure that you don't
want to wake up 30 years from now and regret what you didn't do 30 years

The whole trick is in your mind -- you need to work on it daily, and

You might try joining the Mindlist (
and you could probably get some good ideas
from John Kehoe (  Self hypnosis
wouldn't hurt either --
check out  And don't forget the Unstoppable Confidence tapes

It's hard work, but the alternative is a lot worse.

Thank you. I honestly didn't even really expect to be dissuaded from my
concern on looks but somehow your previous email has helped a lot.

My  Comment:
Changing this kind of thinking is not something that happens overnight.  It
took me years -- now when I walk past a girl, I think that she likes what
she sees rather than anything negative.  Quite a change.

I guess it's still probably an important factor (sometimes it's hard to
tell, comparing what I interpret in the world and the notes on ASF and here)
BUT I'm getting to realize the importance of not being concerned with it.

My Comment:
It is not easy.  It is hard, persistent work that will take time to really
sink in.  There is no easy solution to this, from my experience.

I have always done a lot of 'negative self talk', and I actually thought
it was beneficial (because my philosophy has been thinking/worrying about it
would only make me more prepared/understand the situation better.  In a way
this still does make sense to me.)  BUT, I'm beginning to realize, it seems
like most PUA's probably don't think any negative self thoughts at all.  Do
you think this is true?

My Comment:
You would be surprised at the good looking guys who I met who attended some
of Ross's seminars, who thought that women really didn't find them
attractive.  And they had no idea what to say to women.  I think that
everyone is different, but most of us have gone through a period where our
thinking was bad.  I certainly did.

So you can see how it makes sense to me (to worry), and at the same time
it's better that I don't. Anyway, the point is I'm deciding to NOT to worry
(on looks) from now on, and just trust that advice.

My Comment:
My father told me a story a long time ago the moral to which was "I spent a
lot of time worrying about things that never happened."  Whatever will
happen will happen, worrying about it will only make you miserable in the

This might seem trivial but its a big step for me.  Do you think attitude is
more than 50% of all of seduction?  If so, I'll probably focus on just that
then.  Since I doubt I'd be able to cover all of the seduction theories out
there anyway, I might as well just focus on the most important ones.

My Comment:
It is probably 90% of seduction.  If you have the right attitude, everything
else will take care of itself.

At this point, I am just going to try to work my way up and open up and get
to know women more.  I've held back a lot for most of my life.  A question:
should seduction be as complicated as it is presented via SS?

My Comment:
Ignore it all.  Just go out and talk to women.  The things you have read
will kick in on their own as you practice.  Don't worry about their
reactions -- if one woman can't appreciate you, another one will.  Major
Mark once said that in any grouping of people, probably 25% are interested
to meet you.  The key is zeroing in on those people.  After that, then you
can move on to just the ones you want to meet.

And are PUA's theories that trustworthy since the creators may be getting
good results due to other factors but they themselves do not realize it?

My Comment:
While everything is possible, it's my experience that looks (which is what
you are really talking about) are not the deciding factor most of the time.
Not to say never, but definitely it isn't as important as you think it is.
If you were a woman, I would tell you to go get some plastic surgery because
looks are more important to men than to women.  And that is part of the
problem -- we think they think like we do.  And they absolutely don't.

I am not really in a rush to get women.  I guess that's a plus, for a long
time I accepted that I wasn't able to and I'm kind of used to it.

My Comment:
When will you be in a rush, when you are 80 and have realized how much time
you have wasted with this kind of thinking?  The only time you have is NOW.

Good point, it is important to step it up (it didn't occur to me), but a big
part of what I meant is that I'm not desperate to actually GET them, but I
will rush more to talk to them. I'm just going to see how I do.  There isn't
that much I can change about myself anyway.

My Comment:
If you just change your attitude, that would be more than enough.

Does anyone have any recommendations for books that would exhibit a good PUA
outlook (or a just plain good outlook on life)?
Specifically, I'm looking for things such as how to view life/get the right
attitude in general/maybe self esteem style stuff.  Even be more FUN, since
that is apparently what most women want.  Not just limited to confidence/get
yourself going.  Attitude seems to be a very important factor, and something
like this would help people learn it.


Here's one for you to get a good laugh at..

Tonight I went up and talked to a chick at the restaurant that I was at and
we were talking about BS, SHE started talking about her work, and then the
convo led to what I do for a living.. I told her I was an exotic dancer.
asked me where I danced I said well tonight was kinda rough so I just danced
out in front of Taco Bell.  Her FAT and UGLY friends were trying to cut me
down. So when that continued I just got sick of it and changed the subject.
She had a Valentine's candy in front of her, I said.. "so you are getting
ready for Valentine's Day".  She said "I hate that holiday".. "I am alone
during all the holidays."  I took away from her statement and said "If you
the holidays without worry of being alone, would you enjoy them more?", and
she said "yes" (of course but slick eh?)  Her friends tried to cut me down
again, and I said to the chick, I am really sick of hearing your drunk
friends, you should come over to my table with me and she said "I think I
will do that."  She followed me over to my table and sat with us for about
minutes. Here is where it gets interesting. (I got her number before I told
her; "I should be talking with my friends").  Then 5 hotties (serious babes)
walk in... then at this point we were also ready to cruise out of the bar
(coincidentally, I had a perfect line for such an instance), so we got ready
to leave.. (all my friends were gawking at all the hotties) and I walked up
and said "It is unfortunate that you got here so late, it would have been
nice to see if we could have gotten to know each other."  Every one of the
chicks at the table stared at me like deer stare at headlights. I just left
and said "I just wanted to come over and say hello, I hope you ladies have a
good night."  After this, I went over and said goodbye to the original girl
got the number from and kissed her on the cheek.  Then I walked over said
goodbye to my friend and then on the way to the hostess stand I saw ALL the
hotties staring at me still. (Am I writing a book here or what?)  Then I
walked out and one of my friends was drunk and went over and got them so
annoyed that they asked a waiter to get him out of there. (I made myself
invisible BTW)

Truthisms :)?

I was so charming I got 5 chicks looking at me (9's-10's) and 4 decent
looking guys walked up to them before me and got shot down HARDCORE, I
walked up and shot them down cause THEY got there too late to talk to me!

Humor is easy.

Drunk people do nothing but piss people off!

So next time you are in a bar and you see some chicks and you think you
aren't good enough to get them, think again. I am overweight and I get Super
Hot Babes STARING AT ME!! Just don't walk away without getting a phone
number from the hotties! (Honestly, I did it for fun and the girls would
have probably cockblocked each other out of me, but it was good experience
to talk to 5 girls and have them all looking at you like the king in the

Do a guy's looks really matter? NO. I don't care what you say, I don't care
who you are, Brad Pitt or Chris Farley it won't matter if you keep them

Never doubt the power of making yourself the most powerful person in the
room! (3 months ago I would never have said this.)

Speed Seduction» was not a tactic that I was focusing on because the chick I
was talking to was sorta drunk and taken away from reality (hard to NLP
her), but was sober enough to realize that I was the "king of the room"

I was sitting with 3 people that frowned upon the thoughts of anything that
is discussed in this post, which includes the idea of Pickups or
anything to do with that. Although this may have been the case I brought her
over with my friends to separate her from her 1 fat and 1 extremely ugly
friend. This was a bad mistake on its own because when she told them that
she worked where she did they all started talking about "doesn't it suck
there" and that type of shit and it made the whole conversation negative.
Somehow, I was able to regain control of the conversation (somehow, shit I
was the Alpha Male», I could do whatever I wanted), and I started talking
about her vacations and how she liked to spend them or how she would spend
her next one.   My advice is this.. NEVER let anyone around you to take
control of the conversation, and NEVER let it get negative without a way to
regain it, should it happen..

Get her, get her now, she will love you.  If you are charming and you are
desperate you will get what you want :)

Just an opinion, I think that any one of the 5 hotties that sat at that
table tonight was thinking that they should have got there earlier to figure
out which one of them COULD have got me :) Oh well, maybe I will see them
there again when numbers aren't so challenging.

Gotta love it though!

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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