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"First impressions can be deceiving"

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First impressions can be deceiving
2/24/01 10:08:46 AM Eastern Standard Time


Montreal readers of this, please contact me by email to be put on the
separate Montreal list, which will advise you of various local events of
interest.  I know there are several of you on this list that are not on the
Montreal list, but I don't have the addresses separated in a form where I
can add you unless I hear from you.


Lew Payne (a real oldtimer who has just joined the list):
I'm actually not "active" in Speed Seduction» anymore, in the usual sense of
the word... that is, I don't go out and try to pick up women anymore. In my
profession, they come to me.  I've been running various adult sites for
several years now, and unlike most sites, we produce our own content rather
than purchase it. As a result, I work with nude models on a regular basis.
Yes, I still apply the principals of NLP and SS to get the girls to do what
I want (such as fill their holes with a nice fat cucumber), but I don't have
to "hit the
streets." This will give you an idea of the girls I work with --

 (local amateur girls)
Speed Seduction» does have its benefits, especially when you need to
convince a girl to blow you on-camera and let you take a huge dump
all over her face. At times like that, it still comes in handy.


I live in LA, have for coming up on five months.  Women in LA are definitely
into looking good.  The standard is so high that even women that would
probably normally be plain do stuff with makeup and surgery and clothes so
they look good.

I think most of the 9's and 10's, model types are pretty fucked-up in the
head.  Really, really messed the hell up.  Your best chance is probably in a
non-pick-up environment.  On the street, in a store, etc., but then again I
think it's generally harder to get numbers in NPE's (non-pick-up

There's a huge hierarchy to the bar and club scene.  Unlike probably most
big cities.  Because the super hot, the really super hot, won't be at a bar
or club with the great unwashed.  Places like Skybar, the Sunset Room, the
Viper Room, and surely more that I don't know about -- that's where a lot of
these super-hot, semi-famous, TV actors or some models of some sort go.

Places like Saddle Ranch, Dublins, Myagis (sp?), Red Rock, etc. -- these
are places where the great unwashed go.

So if you want to encounter a super, super hot brawd, you probably will have
to manage to get into an exclusive bar or club.

So you want a Cindy Margolis?  Good luck.  I don't mean that to be limiting.
Really, I don't.  I think it's possible that an average guy could win over
a super desired brawd.  I used to be kind of skeptical about SS, but as I've
been dating a lot lately, and getting laid too, I've realized that chicks
don't give a shit about anything except how they feel.  They don't even care
about making YOU HAPPY, unless it will give them good feelings.  To wit, the
brawd I'm dating now, who's really into me, scarily sometimes, was telling
me how before I picked her up she was reading about fellatio so she could
better please me.  Well, she's interested in doing so, pleasing me, I think,
just for the feelings it will give her.  And if you know how to talk to a
brawd to induce these feelings (which thing I'm now learning to do), you'll
be way better off than 999 out of 1,000 dudes.

But still.  Realism is good at times, too, no?  To get Cindy Margolis, or
Heidi Klum -- that's some work for an average Joe Sixpack.  Personally, I'm
happy with one or two grades below the Heidi Klum (in five years I'm getting
the Heidi Klum though!).

Take that Giselle brawd from Brazil or wherever the fuck.  She's boning
Leonardo DiCaprio.  Say what you will about that man-boy, but he's famous as
fuck, and he's supposedly knows how to have a pretty swell time, too.  (Some
stars are real homos, like Matt Damon, who lets his mom buy his fucking
underwear!)  And take Cindy Margolis.  She's married to the president of
Jerry's Famous Deli, which is this big restaurant chain kind of thing in
LA -- and so this guy, I would guess, might be mafia (restaurants are
laundries, you know?) -- so he's super fucking powerful, you know?

Anyways, I think to do well with your average hot-ass brawd in LA, you'll
have to either be able to talk her pants off, or have the LOOKS so she will
take them off willingly.  Personally, I was born with good looks and I've
cultivated them by a lot of time-consuming grooming (tanning, expensive
haircuts, hair colorings, hair products, tweezing, skin medication) and
stylish clothes (denim jackets, CK T-shirts, a wide variety of shoes) and
lifting weights religiously, and running, and eating well -- so that I've
now got a printwork and commercial agent, and my looks help me get my foot
in the door.  So I'm fortunate for this.  But I also recognize that you have
to be able to TALK WELL to brawds or they will leave you faster than a girl
leaves Tom Green.


> => I could have stayed if I knew the strategy to follow from where I left
> off, or from the time where she responded to my neg.  Ideas?

Hey artist folks, do you really employ approaches the "people only try to
pick you up" way? I don't think that can be progressed easily. Similar
statements only block me from being direct and seem to induce good girl
pretender behavior. I couldn't have followed on on that myself. But I
wouldn't have gone away at that point because it validates what you told
her: you tried picking her up, failed and went away, right? But maybe she
wouldn't have come back. It was the worst possible moment: "I'm back. You
told me about people who pick me up""Yeah, right..." fucked up IMHO.
> => My strategy is to deal two cards, a neg one and a positive one, and see
> which card she draws.

Max, the way she responded to your neg (great method) reveals she's a
person moving away-from. You can scare her into doing things and she
requires approval of herself. You could have liked her hairdo and lightly
touched (support) her right away. Fluff.

As always when I am giving helpful advice, I have a request too. Like Ross,
I have gotten women to go places with me only to find out it's not getting
laid.. and so on right into my bed and I find I need to close before I am
tired. It is degrading for me to start caressing a female in bed. That's too
sexual too suddenly. I need closes. Lots of them. You contributors to this
list mostly write about close or fail using magickal patterns. But how
exactly do you close? I don't mean you to type out the link of the ASF
Archive but to include how you close in your occurring field reports. I
promise to write some soon myself but currently I don't want to bore you
with my loser stories. How did you kiss-close this week?


In response to both Flyer's posting on the LA chick scene.
>Again, those who specialize in the LA scene please post.

I want to specialize.  Anyone post who wants to head out to meet the best
HB's LA has running around and waiting for us.

I think asking if these women (in particular) are fucked up is irrelevant,
many women are .. consider the 1's and 2's as opposed to the 9's and 10's.
If you build in the right states, activate something new inside ANY woman
she'll feel excited about you and sex with you like it was a life changing
experience.  Make it that.

On clubs:
Alot of these chicks (9's and 10's) hang out at clubs, I don't care what
their expectations were about their evening out prior to meeting me.  The
club scene is challenging everywhere, it's not a function of an HB.  I watch
tons of guys with more outright balls than me meet lots of chicks and leave
without a number or an impression.  Chicks like to play.  A fun thing, is I
like to use the AFC's as my fodder and watch a failed PUA, congratulate the
woman on having good taste and make a joke out of it.  It's so obvious how
some people are never going to connect in a meaningful way .. now, there's
*other* people, you, me, lots of them, I think you know the difference when
we feel that.

Food for thought:
I don't put sleeping with a woman as the indicator of MY success in
seduction (as opposed to getting lucky).  Mine is when a woman tells me that
she's never met anyone like me, that she feels like she's not in control but
she doesn't care, or my favorite is that I surprised her/she can't believe
it, etc.  (of course, these are likely to occur after sex!!!)


"She: Oh, you don't like my ear rings?
=> She drew the neg card.
=> I could have stayed if I knew the strategy to follow from where I left
off, or from the time where she responded to my neg.  Ideas?"

Let me start by saying I'm a newbie to the list, so if I sound a little
naive, just remember first impressions can be deceiving : )

Why is it that women always (well, most often, anyway) tend to pick up
negative comments?  Same goes for this woman who was distressed about her
nose because one guy insulted her about it.  Sure, it was rude of this guy
to do that, but come on, where is her self-esteem at, if she can take one
little comment like that to heart?  Her problems are deeper than her nose.

But back to Max and the bartender's earrings...  Where to have gone from
there?  If it were me, I'd have wanted the guy asking me to follow up the
negative with a positive, which you did (also tactfully changing the

"Me: Yes, I don't . (true, I didn't like them and I thought they were too
She: Those are the biggest I've got. It is the first time I wear them.
Me: I see that a smaller set would allow more exposure to your face. By the
way, let me ask you this; a lot of people seem to talk with you around here,
how do you differentiate between those who are trying to pick you up
(Pointing far to the right) and those who really want to get to know you

Her comment "I guess I don't care" sounds like a brush-off to me...

In response to Sisonpyh:
"All of the most extreme sounding things that I've written, when presented
in a cocky and funny way are like a woman's ultimate dream live.
Go and make them beg... it's damn fun."

And damn fun from a woman's point of view too... is it hot in here?

Seems to have been an earlier thread about being famous and what it does for
women(?)... people have told my man he looks like Russell Crowe and/or Kurt
Russell, which seems to work for him, too, empowers him, puts him up on
their level (just watch out for that ego).   Me, it's some psychological
coz I start thinking, "Hey, he looks like Kurt Russell, and he's mine... all
mine... I can't be half bad then either..." and when women *feel* sexy,
amazing things can happen...

Mind you, you can't just say "I've been told I look like Brad Pitt"
...obviously... I had one guy trying to pick me up, and, okay, he had a
faint Scottish accent, but he says, "I kind of sound like Sean Connery,
don't you think.." then he lowers his voice, "Mish Moneypenny...?" then he
winked, and it was all I could do not to wet myself laughing...


> The problem obviously lies with the chick, and not with the asshole.
>  Sometimes neghits are necessary to get the female's attention. Jeez, this
>  chick is 31 years old, and she takes what one guy says so seriously? She
>  needs to grow up. Think about all the verbal abuse us men have taken in
>  PU attempts. You have to just dismiss it and move on. Are women that much
>  different than men? If she is so messed up in her head that she can't
>  dismiss that insult for what it was, then she deserves all the pain that
>  gets. It may seem cruel, but that's the way things are.

Dude, you are totally missing it.  First, neghits are not necessary.
thinking that they are is a form of desperation that undermines you in
several ways, including:
1) it really puts the power in the other person
2) undermines confidence/google
3) neghits aren't the best for rapport
4) they make you a bully
5) they are a form of supplication
6) they decrease your flexibility and learning because you miss out on
better methods.
7) Often people doing neghits appear incongruent when they do it
If you're going to use methods of influence then you need to be responsible
for your communication.  At many (perhaps all) of RJ's seminars he tells
people that if someone is under your influence then they should also be
under your protection.  Neghits just make you an insecure bully.
BEING THE MAN means taking responsibility for your communication.  This
creates a congruency, sense of confidence, and aura of personal power that
draws woman like a magnet.  As for this woman, I think most woman who
receive a comment like that would probably be self-conscious to some extent,
and it would affect them for a long time.  I think the only question is how
much it affects them.  This woman is a very bright well-adjusted woman who
has dealt very well with a horrible handicap.  Unfortunately, because of her
past his comment was probably especially hurtful to her.  However, when
people first meet you don't always know if you're dealing with the fragile
eggshell.  I urge and implore you to reconsider your use of neghits,
especially if they haven't yet gotten you what you are seeking, but even if
you thought neghits could get you what you want you can find better ways.
Just because I can physically force a woman to have sex with me doesn't mean
that it is an acceptable approach, or that my self-esteem will be enhanced
by raping someone.  Sometimes psychological abuse is worse.
> I partially agree with you, but the problem with your approach is that it
>  doesn't work with super HB's or extremely confident women. The reason is
>  that they already have all the power, because they are used to it. The
>  men always give them this power. You can't empower them because in their
>  mind, they have more power than you. The neg is useful in cases like
>  With a neg, you get her to fall down from her pedestal and realize that
>  are different and have more power than other men and her.

First, I only go for super HB's who are extremely confident women.  Nobody
has anymore power over you than the power that you give them.  It is all in
your mind.  The way to convey more power and show that you're different from
other men is to act with more power.  Also, most of the time you don't have
to show that you have more power than either her or other men.  You merely
have to gain her respect.  Remember this isn't about a power contest, this
is about seduction.  However, holding power is useful.  Henry Kissinger said
"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  However, I don't think it got him laid
a whole lot, but it probably helped.
Some people are so focused on neghitting that they are forgetting about much
more important concepts.  Most importantly, I think seduction is about
leading yourself and woman to wonderful, blissful, ecstatic states.  When
you become the link to her pleasure she will gladly spread her legs for you.
Those of you who read Bishop's seductions will notice that this is one of
core elements of almost all of his masterful seductions.  This is a primary
function of his "Warmth Builder" and many of his other patterns.  Another
very important factor in seductions is being able to structure challenges
and offer inviting opportunities.  Structuring challenges will often do many
the things you guys are trying to do with the neghits, and accomplish those
purposes in a much more elegant and effective manner.  Challenges can be an
effective tool for shifting the balance of power.
> Negging any part of someone's physique is BAD and WRONG, it may
>  cause long term damage. I won't also neg on something expensive that a
>  might have (i.e. Car, Furniture, ....) . I have no second opinion about
>  issue.  What I do usually is negging on little items, like an ear ring,
>  color of
>  pants, color of manicure..... something that can be changed with no or
>  minimal
>  cost.  I do have a good respect for your opinion and thoughts.

If you're going to neghit (which I don't recommend) I think these are great
rules to follow

What hobbies do you have?
I'm curious as to how many of you mention seduction.  It seems that is a
major hobby for many of you.  Just reading Cliff's list, or some of these
other newsgroups can take time.
I find that mentioning this can be very useful.  It can get a laugh, build
trust, set the frame for your being a challenge, set the frame for your
seducing other woman, set a frame for her to flirt with you or be sexually
adventurous.  It can open the doorway for her to help you with your hobby as
a wingwoman or teacher.  It can also open the doorway to lots of patterning.
After all, she will usually smile and inquire about how you go about your
seduction.  This is gives you the opportunity to massively pattern her.  I
like to do takeaways here.  While I pattern her with stuff I will challenge
her by letting her know that much of what I say and do is only reserved for
people who earn it.  For example, you can do something like Bishy's Warmth
Builder and then tell her in quotes that if you two were to be more involved
you'd insert pleasure building language .....Take her to the brink of
Then, tell her and I'd do so much more but I'm not going to share it
because for me seduction isn't about just giving pleasure.  It is about
giving and receiving pleasure while sharing something much deeper and more
meaningful, and it is a privilege that people have to earn.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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