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I’ll ditch ya faster than a girl with a big ass
3/18/01 10:36:15 AM Eastern Standard Time

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In the last email or two, GameMaster recommended Wendi's book and tapes and
a few of you have written asking which book and which tapes in particular.
He was referring to Hypnotize your Lover and the tapes that come with it.
You can see more about these at www.wendi.com.

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Icerigger:
I recalled this web page I found a while back...
http://www.girlfriendstealer.com/
and in particular... http://www.girlfriendstealer.com/chick/
stealing tips from a chick. Some interesting stuff in regard to dealing with
chicks that have borefriends.  Enjoy.

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Ebderm:
I am very interested in this "women are very angry" theory.
If so, why are they? By the way, some men are angry, and it is more than
rejection.
From the AFC point of view, he is being targeted and "teased".
Women spend much effort, and money, to look sexy.
Woman: "You are thirsty. Tooooo bad. You can't have this DELICIOUS, CLEAR,
cool, water that I have..Maybe, I'll let you just look at it...."
If a woman was angry, she would actually have a logical motivation to do
this.
So, why are women angry?
I know that many women, even if they are angry, and have been indoctrinated
by the dating system, are very honorable and don't behave like this.


I also believe that the repression of women in many cultures is due to a
fear of the sexual power of angry women to behave in this manner. In
American culture, we are giving incredible power to attractive 20 year old
women. My acquaintances from certain Moslem countries are very impressed by
the power of women in western society.

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Halbster:
Mystery wrote:
> Dude, man ... I'm MYSTERY : )  You think I was born in a bubble and don't
>  know about SS or something ... dude ... I'm ... MYSTERY.  What a stupid
>  debate this is.  You say that SS is the be all and end all.  I say it
>  isn't.  I say, if you don't have ANYTHING, it's GREAT.  If you are a pro
>  pua, though, you will have discovered OTHER ways to score.  The mental
model
>  of SEDUCING a WOMAN by making her FEEL GOOD is ONE model.  Another is to
>  SYSTEMATICALLY CONVEY a mysterious persona and look for indicators of
>  interest.

I never said you were born in a bubble.  I am merely pointing out that some
of your notions about SS are not accurate (at least IMHO).  Have you ever
listened to any of RJ's tape or video series that have been produced during
the last 4 years?  I think your understanding of SS is based primarily upon
what you learn from the internet, and that doesn't include much of SS,
including the most powerful aspects of SS. Have you ever attended one of his
seminars?  I don't think SS is the be all and end all.  I was seducing
beautiful women years before I ever heard of SS or Ross.  I do think SS is
an excellent workable system that people can use to transform their life and
get
the results they want with women while leaving the women better than when
they found them.  I don't think it is the only system, but I think it is the
best system that I have come across for seduction.  Personally, if I'm not
seducing her by making her feel better, then I'm not interested.  I think
that
is half the fun.  Personally, I'd rather create interest than merely hope to
see indicators of interest.

Mystery continued:  >  check out The
>  Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.  The book has a chapter called The
>  Baloney Detection Kit that lists a whole bunch of logical fallacies that
>  happen in debates.  You've been caught in a few of them (nothing
>  personal).  Check out the book 'cause you'll be able to convey your
>  meaning in a more precise manner.  The above error in logic stems from
>  what is called The Slippery Slope Principle.  "If I give you a chip ...
>  I'll have to give everyone ELSE a chip too."

Mystery, I feel like your trying to turn this into a one upmanship contest
rather than a productive dialogue.  I feel like you've been misquoting me
and twisting my words.  Remember, we both understand about thought viruses,
language patterns, propaganda and the like.  I think you're playing games by
making vague references to logical fallacies.  I'm not only familiar wit the
baloney detection kit, but I can also point you to the academic sources on
critical thinking and logic (Check out "Critical Thinking: Evaluating Claims
and Arguments in Everyday Life by Brooke Noel Moore and Richard Parker -- is
a good starting point).  It is very slick the way you accuse me of a
"slippery slope" but yet you don't point to any slippery slope.  Chapter 2
of the above book starts with a discussion of Unclarity and ambiguity.  "A
claim is vague if it lacks sufficient precision to convey the information
appropriate to its use." p25.   The fact is that your accusation is a
logical fallacy and a manipulative
game. I find that you're frequently engaging in the "Straw Man" (p.109).
"The
so-called straw man pseudoargument is what you get when a claim or position
(x) is alleged to be refuted because of a successful attack on a distorted,
exaggerated, weak or misrepresented version of it ("X").  In other words, an
opponent's real position is ignored while a "straw" version of it is roundly
attacked: "X" is false because "X" is false."  Your vague comment about the
fallacies and the slippery slope is another example of this.

How about looking at the accuracy of my statements and the usefulness of
what I write.
>  GameMaster: There ain't no such thing as a 10. I have known several 9's
in
>  my life that always sooner or later proved that they had a big ole'
fucking
>  hole in their head thereby rendering their status to the negative column.

One of the greatest pieces of graffiti that I ever came across read "No
matter how hot the woman, somewhere, someplace is a guy who is fed up with
her shit!"

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GameMaster:
>Abboudian:
> The combined aromas of cucumber and the black-licorice candy Good & Plenty
> appear to boost sexual arousal in women more than expensive fragrances, an
> Illinois researcher has found.

GameMaster: Ha! My friends thought I was crazy. I have kept a bowl full of
Good-n-Plentys on my kitchen table for years. I think I read this in a men's
magazine about 4 years ago and thought I'd give it a try. Besides the
pleasant aroma, I think the combination of cucumbers and candy are a great
visual metaphor. I'm gonna order some of this stuff, girls sort of look at
me funny when they see cucumbers sticking out of my pockets.
>Ross
> That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have met Mys
> and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more passive
> approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE  CHUTE HIS LOOKS ARE GOING TO GENERATE
SOME INTEREST.
>
> Mys, where would you be without your looks? A person who's met you
> describes you as "gorgeous" and no, he isn't gay.  So, can we really
> accept that what you say is going to work when it does NOT rely on
> languaging to get past looks, as SS does?

GameMaster: So Mystery is a prettyboy? I fukin' knew it. I want more advice
from old ugly guys like me ; ))~
>Clifford commenting on Dwayne:
> My Comment:  Well, as long as she knows your full name she could have
>asked  her girlfriends about you.  I have had blind dates get turned around
on me
> (women I hadn't even met didn't want to meet me, clearly based on what
> someone must have told them which I have no idea what they said or why)
>for  no reason at all.  The problem here is you just don't know what
someone is
> out there saying about you, whether you deserve it or not. (I didn't
deserve
> it, BTW.)

GameMaster: Any lawyers on this list? I think a class action suit against
ALL women on behalf of practicing PUA's is in order here. Refer to Otter's
famous courtroom speech in Animal House (please note the State of Tennessee
flag in the backgound - makes me so proud : )
> Dwayne Responds:  The story of my life.  A friend calls it the Boudreaux
> syndrome... The story goes a man name Boudreaux had a life of trouble and
misery.
> He cried out to God why his life was such a disaster.  A voice came from
> the sky, "I don't know Boudreaux... Something about you just pisses me
off."
>
> My Comment: I don't believe in that.  I think you have the power to make
> your own luck, not that I have mastered this or anything.  Getting women
> takes a lot of practice, it doesn't just happen.

GameMaster: Clifford's absolutely right, as usual. Love the Boudreaux story
though...that's funny as hell. Reminds me of how after the War of Northern
Aggression folks in the South looked around and said "Fuck it, I think I'm
just gonna try laughing at all this shit!"  Women are frustrating creatures
and we can't be responsible for all the frightened, timid little girls out
there
masquerading as members of society. Did you ever think it's maybe not your
fault? I've discovered an interesting phenomena lately as I'm really trying
to understand what makes these women tick so I'm talking to as many as I can
and I've had more than a few tell me that they're not looking to fall in
love and when a guy with these skills starts to push all the right buttons
you may never see that girl again, or she might pop up out of the blue a
year later as I've had happen. Find out her VAK and take the shortest
possible route and do it as soon as you can.

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Kerr:
Ok boys, time to break out the old Good & Plenty (black licorice candy)
combined with cucumber....
So what am I supposed to do.. rub the stuff on my clothes or something.. ?!?

I would definitely like to use this knowledge to my advantage, so I wonder
what the hell that all means...

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Adam:
> charcoal-barbecued meat and cherry appeared to be big
>turnoffs.

Yes... especially if the scent was emanating from stains on a wife-beater
tank top.

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Lovedrop:
>Ross says:
>That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have met Mys
>and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more passive
>approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE  CHUTE HIS LOOKS ARE >GOING TO GENERATE
SOME INTEREST.
>Mys, where would you be without your looks? A person who's met you
>describes you as "gorgeous" and no, he isn't gay.  So, can we really
>accept that what you say is going to work when it does NOT rely on
>languaging to get past looks, as SS does?

Lovedrop responds:
I just wanted to set this straight because over the years I've heard a lot
of comments that Mystery does good with women because he is good-looking or
because he is a magician, etc.
The truth is, Mystery was a complete failure with women until his early
twenties.  He came to a point in his life when he decided that he was going
to devote himself to becoming a PUA so he could solve this aspect of his
life.  (I believe that Ross had a similar "turning point" in his life as
well.)

At that point, Mystery began going out for hours each night, several nights
a week, and has been doing this for years now.  His successes grew gradually
as he did more and more field work.  As he began to notice patterns to his
success, he formulated the techniques that he has described in the
newsgroup, such as Negs, his group tactics, his FMAC structure, and so on.

Mystery is successful because of his languaging and his game and all of his
field work, period.  Let's give credit where credit is due.  Most of
Mystery's routines are actually storytelling intended to install emotional
states.  SOUND FAMILIAR?

Halbster:
>    Most importantly, for
>me seduction isn't about turning a woman on by stripping her of power
>(although I realize sometimes this works for people).  I believe in turning
>woman on by helping them to discover, appreciate, and savor power that they
>never knew they had.  I think neghits are a subtle form of supplication
>because you only need to knock her down if she is above you.
>Ross:
>Touche', Halbster. PLAYFUL neg hits, just as a bit of spice,
>obviously meant as a joke, to keep her from taking herself and you
>too seriously are fine. ANYTHING done with meanness, however, does
>reflect a need to knock someone down to YOUR level. Right on, Mike!

Lovedrop responds:
I absolutely have to respond here because I believe that Neg theory is the
single most misinterpreted technique there is.  Most everyone have
misconceptions about what Negs are and how they work, and people make
judgments based on their misconceptions.  I'd like to clear this up, once
and for all.

First of all, a Neg, as Mystery has defined it, is not an insult, and is not
mean.  If there is ANYTHING mean or insulting, then it IS NOT A NEG, IT IS
AN INSULT.  They are two COMPLETELY different things.

Many Neg's resemble compliments, but they target the girl's insecurity.
This is done in a playful manner.  If you see someone using Negs properly,
you are more likely to perceive it as flirting than to perceive it as an
insult.

Here are the results of a Neg:
1) To give the girl that slight nervous feeling in her tummy that she gets
when she's around a guy that she really likes.
2) To give her that feeling like you are accustomed to being around
attractive women, and that you see her as a girl, not as a goddess.  So she
knows you are on her level and not groveling at her feet.
3) To create a challenge for her and bait her to pursue you.
If you REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, Negs are a powerful tool, to be used in a
targeted fashion, and they really are directly in line with basic SS
philosophy.  I am sick and tired of seeing people misinterpret the
technique.  ESPECIALLY PEOPLE ON THE SS LIST.  They see the word "Neg" and
they interpret that as "Negative Insult" when they haven't even really
studied the technique.  It's a sound technique, it works in the field, and
SS people use it already, they just didn't know the name!  One of Mystery's
Negs is even featured in Bishop's Journal!

Here are some example Negs:
"You've got some lipstick on your tooth."
"Oh that's so cute...your nose wiggles a bit when you talk!  :-)  Say
something...there it goes again  :-)"
"You know I really like you but I probably wouldn't take it any further,
you're too much of a nice girl for me  :-)"
Here is a Neg that Mystery invented which is later utilized in "Bishop's
Journal"
"Oh you're a model?  What, a hand model or something?"

        WHILE TALKING
        "wow cool, you are friends? how long have you known each other?"
when the 1st girl answers, say, "I didn't ask you silly :)"

            "hello, I'm talking, geez"

            "hello, it's private, geez"

            "excuse me I'm showing HER the pictures not YOU geez :)) "

            "Excuse me... may I finish my sentence first?"

        "shh! people can see us!"

        "Oooh... Sick... You just spit on me!"

        NAILS
            "nice nails, are they real?  no?
            and you say
            "oh. (pause) well I guess they still LOOK good."
            "oh. Well, they're still nice."

        HAIR
            "that's a nice hairstyle ... is that your real hair?"

            "is that a hair piece?  well, it's neat..."
            "what do you call this hairstyle?  The waffle? : )"
            Smile and look at her to show her you are sincerely being funny
and not insulting.

            "I like your hair...Is that your natural color?"

Oh and just for the record, I am a well-practiced SS user and I have also
studied up on other ideas such as Mystery's.  So I feel qualified to make
these statements and I think it needed to be said.

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Primoman:
>    Another is to
> SYSTEMATICALLY CONVEY a mysterious persona and look for indicators of
> interest.That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have met
>Mys and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more passive
>approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE  CHUTE HIS LOOKS ARE >GOING TO GENERATE
SOME INTEREST.Mys, where would you be >without your looks? A person who's
met you describes you as "gorgeous" >and no, he isn't gay.  So, can we
really accept that what you say is going to >work when it does NOT rely on
languaging to get past looks, as SS does?

I can't believe you, Ross, of all people would make that statement. You know
that looks don't matter much to getting women. This is MYSTERY you're
talking about, it's all about his attitude and style. THAT'S what generates
interest right out of the chute! Mystery goes up and uses interesting
routines and stories to get chicks attracted to him. And the woman who
describes him as gorgeous MET him - DUH - his personality made her think
that, not simply his looks. Do you think she would say that about him if he
was shy? No way. And anyways I've seen his picture, and he's not THAT good
looking, he's a skinny guy with a big nose. I have friends that are better
looking and never get any action. In conclusion, even if Mystery was ugly I
think he would still bang 10's.

My Comment:  I think that what Ross was talking about is that Mystery's
looks provide him the opportunity to go to the next step, to show his
attitude and style.  Years ago when I was totally inexperienced and did not
consider myself particularly attractive, I had (and it actually still
happens the odd time) some women immediately express how uninterested they
were.  I used to believe that I just didn't have the looks needed to attract
these women but the real important part is that they wouldn't stay put long
enough to talk to you.  Without getting their ear at all, you can't get any
where (of course, there are retaliatory tactics which are available, but
that's another story).

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Mystery:
>Dude, man ... I'm MYSTERY : )  You think I was born in a bubble and don't
>know about SS or something ... dude ... I'm ... MYSTERY.  What a stupid
>debate this is.  You say that SS is the be all and end all.  I say it
>isn't.  I say, if you don't have ANYTHING, it's GREAT.  If you are a pro
>pua, though, you will have discovered OTHER ways to score.  The mental
model
>of SEDUCING a WOMAN by making her FEEL GOOD is ONE model.

I hope you got the Orgasmo Sancho reference when I said, "I'm Mystery!"
... "I'm SANCHO!"
>With respect, Mys, that is ONE part of SS; along with setting the
>frame that powers her to respond, and other elements I don't care to get
into.

Those other elements do NOT include groups, however.  SS is for 1:1.  MM
is for 1:5 ... BECAUSE ... 10's are usually already surrounded by people.
It's rare to find a 10 all alone.  And, while you MAY find them alone, what
about all the other situs where they are NOT alone?  I guess that's my point
for the day.  We mustn't be afraid of approaching a target just cause she
MAY be sitting with her BF.
>   Another is to>SYSTEMATICALLY CONVEY a mysterious persona >and look for
indicators of interest.
>That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have met Mys
>and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more passive
>approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE  CHUTE HIS LOOKS ARE >GOING TO GENERATE
SOME INTEREST. Mys, where would you be >without your looks?

This is to brush under the table the amount of skill required to down our
target.  A GREAT looking guy must STILL work to get the girl.  I
certainly am not PASSIVE.  If I were, I would NOT be getting laid clear
and simple.  MM is VERY PROACTIVE ... it just goes under the radar by
making the girl think you aren't HITTING ON HER.  You systematically
convey specific alphamale characteristics, either expressed through
storytelling or demonstrated through social proofing with confidence.
The only way MM is passive is that you don't CLOSE a girl (and therefore
reveal your sexual interest to her) UNTIL you have noticed interest
from HER.  This saves you having to get rejected (crash and burn).  It
also allows you to play hard to get once you KNOW she wants you.  A PUA is a
performance artist.
>A person who's met you describes you as "gorgeous" and no, he isn't gay.
>So, can we really accept that what you say is going to work when it does
>NOT rely on languaging to get past looks, as SS does?

Another sweeping of skill under the table.  I'm no great looker, bro.
Although I've been called PRETTY by girls (of course only by girls who
have LIKED me ... There are lots of girls who reject me or do not show
ANY indicators of interest revealing to me that I am not exactly HOT
PROPERTY!  We must all do the best we can with what we have - looks may
ASSIST us but only as much as looks assists a rock star - and remember,
there are MANY rock stars who are fucking ugly but STILL FAMOUS.  I rely on
LANGUAGING almost entirely bro cause my looks don't OPEN DOORS for me.  I
smile, I walk proud, I wear nice clothes ... I do what I CAN to assist me.
Does that mean I can just get HB's without TALKING?  This is a ridiculous
argument.  And to prove it, take the best looking guy you know and let's
form a challenge: I can get more girls in less time than the best looking
guy you know.  Why?  'Cause it's looks vs. looks?
hardly.  It's looks vs. PUA SKILLS.  BUT!  Knowing some guy out there
thinks of me as gorgeous makes me feel both flattered and just a little
uneasy, haaaa.
>    Most importantly, for
>me seduction isn't about turning a woman on by stripping her of power
>(although I realize sometimes this works for people).  I believe in turning
>woman on by helping them to discover, appreciate, and savor power that they
>never knew they had.  I think neghits are a subtle form of supplication
>because you only need to knock her down if she is above you.
>Touche', Halbster. PLAYFUL neg hits, just as a bit of spice,
>obviously meant as a joke, to keep her from taking herself and you
>too seriously are fine. ANYTHING done with meanness, however,does
>reflect a need to knock someone down to YOUR level. Right on,Mike!

Have you guys ever seriously gone up against a REAL 10?  You actually
think a 10 will ALLOW you to 'help her discover, appreciate, and savor
the power they never knew they had?"  SERIOUSLY?  No9 suggests that the
girls I call 10's are not the same for you.  Remember that a 10 is not
only a hottie but has some social quality ... like Winona Rider.  She
is a 10.  Maybe not because of looks but because of social status.  And
you think you will get WINONA RIDER without being a CHALLENGE for her?  (and
I'm not talking a Winona lookalike either).  And NEG'S ARE playful.  If they
aren't, they aren't NEG's.  Fuck, we should all get together and for a week
go out every night to see each other play the field.  We
would end so many debates cause you would SEE what works.  And I bet I
could learn alot cause some of the stuff I read sounds so fucked up and
implausible though you claim it works so there MUST be a loss of clarity
from what we do to what we SAY we do.  I invite ANYONE here to see me work
in Toronto.  Just don't step on my toes like a Ray and don't bring
me down or I'll ditch ya faster than a girl with a big ass.

Oh and really ... the only reason I've been putting up challenges is 'cause
I
would LOVE to be wrong!  Seriously.  The only way I can learn something NEW
is if I am shown something better.  As for SS, yes I have all the tapes.  I
am not knocking ANY of the patterning.  Once a girl is 1:1 with ya, you are
good to go.  The PROBLEM is going kino and doing patterns in a GROUP.  Say
you are at a cocktail party ... some biz thing ... and you are standing
there with a little wiener on a stick nibbling with others.  And in another
group there is a target.  You can't exactly do SS straight out of the gate.
What Ross calls FLUFF TALK is where MM comes in.  Nuff said for today - I'm
off to a biz party tonight.
Wish me luck. : )  Lounge members, I'll bring my cam.  Oh speaking of: The
Lounge is moving!  It's now on its own server!  You have to logon via the
HOTLINE client application now.  Find out more on the main page of the old
Lounge which will be up for another 3 weeks or so.

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