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A monster built up by the imagination
4/3/01 4:43:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Take this test: (I got 15
out of 20, what does that say about me?)


Poetdude, responding to Mystery and Ross:
> I'm all for this except for the fact that CERTAIN 1's require a different
> approach.  1a and 1b.  The 1a's need negs and group tactics while the 1b's
> may accept compliments and less negs.  For that reason the UG, B and HB
> made.  So it's like base 3 ... 0 of UG, 1 for babes and 2 for Hot babes.
> It's important to make the distinction - at least in MY GAME because if I
> try to use pro tactics on just a regular girl, I'll over-qualify myself so
> fast ... it's like Brad Pitt hitting on a waitress.  She doesn't go for it
> because she figures he must do this all the time.

Yup -- completely agree with this.  Once you establish 0 vs. 1, then
there's different tactics for different 1's, which I just lump under
'general flexibility'.  The ternary (vs. binary) system works -- just don't
add enough digits so you're back up to 10 again...
> >2) Lying.  Under this category goes plagiarizing,
> This simple B&W approach to a complex situ shows me you haven't lived
> through it ... I'm dealing with this right now.  I WISH it were are easy
> you make it out to be.  Morals are subjective ... there is a place for
> lying in this world.  LYING WORKS.  That is why it exists.  The one who
> performs white lies gets laid more and by hotter women clear and simple.

There are different kinds of lies.  There is the "No, Mr. Gestapo Man, Anne
Frank and her family are not camped out in my attic", and then there is
"No, I only love you and I'm not sleeping with that woman you found in my
bed and I don't have herpes."  I ain't some goodie-goodie telling everyone
to behave here, but there is actual detrimental behavior out there.  The
lying taboo is one of the oldest and most universal -- why?  Because
survival itself depends on my knowing if that saber-toothed cat is in fact
sitting around the corner.  Today you are giving that info to me; tomorrow
I'll be giving it to you.  In the absence of digital certificates of
authenticity for every word people utter, trust is the currency that keeps
us all alive.  "Don't ever lie" is naive, but "life is complex so I need
to lie" is, too.  To make this less a philosophical debate and more
applicable to seduction: in my experience, lying is hard, because you
have to keep track of lies, and in the long run it damages your
credibility and rep -- see the 48 Laws of Power», Law #5: "So much depends
on reputation -- guard it with your life."  Besides, Mys, you say you want
a challenge, but then you say lying makes things easier.  What's it gonna
be, chief -- the hard way or the easy lay?
> As for the STD argument ... it's OLD.  I know my girls and I know myself.
> You fear the unknown ... if YOU had 2 GF's one after another or both
> together, you share the same risks.  Nothing like a visit to the doctor by
> all parties to get clarity on the unknown factors.

Hmmm -- interesting.  Did you know that about 70% of all adults carry
herpes simplex type I or II, and most of them don't know it?  Did you know
that carriers *always* have asymptomatic shedding (which means that what
you don't know can hurt you)?  Oh, and btw -- no need to visit the doc.  I
*am* the doctor.  So just look before you leap, boys and girls.

In my book, basically there are only two rules: don't hurt yourself and
don't hurt others.  Lying usually hurts both parties in the short term,
and always hurts yourself in the long run.  Bad thing.

Responding to Ross:
> >Poetdude:
> >.  You're building a hot-rod from the ground up (hard, but with
> >long-term results), not just putting some additive in the fuel (easy but
> >ephemeral)
> Poetdude, that is a beautiful and awesome metaphor! I love it!  The guy
> laboring away in his garage, building something new and awesome from
> his own designs and specifications! DAMN GOOD! You get a Tabby Treat!

Does this mean I have to like cat food?  Make it a Fancy Feast, please.
> First, I agree, if you approach a woman while she is with her date,
> guy, borefiend, etc. YOU ARE ASKING FOR TROUBLE!  I GOT YA!
> But dude, I have to disagree with this "homestead" approach to
> relationships; the person who got there first establishes "ownership".

OK, to address Ross, Mystery and Alan's plaintive wails: Have no fear; no
homesteading here.  In fact, the line I came up with last night when this
hot mama was with her pretty boy was, "That's your boyfriend, huh?  So
when do you think you'll be ready for an upgrade?"  Look -- they're all
fair game, and they all deserve to have a fair shot at having the time of
their life with me.  But it's one thing to go after what you want (hot
babe, attached or not), congruently and powerfully, vs. making it your goal
to make some other dude look like a chump -- that's all.  I'm of the 'may
the better man win' philosophy.  In the meantime, thank you all for
reminding me of the joys of shutting down a chump faster than a rave in a
police station -- I'd almost forgotten how much fun it can be  ; )  And
next time, I'll have more thoughts, technique, and less ranting.  I'll be
in Toronto the weekend of May 3-6, and in Montreal the following weekend,
so mischief will be afoot.


"Secrets of Being Successful with Women
                       FREE info-packed report, courtesy of our affiliate, GRAB IT! "

Any one read this one yet?  I think it's really half ass job with a few
points here and there, couldn't read the whole thing tho, maybe some other
time I'll finish it. Any ideas?


I'd like to ask for advice from the list particularly from all the guys
experienced in seducing strippers. There is this stripper I am working on
and I'm trying hard not to put too much importance on her but it is very
difficult. First of all my objective is to make her my girlfriend.

It's hard to get her attention in the club because when she goes on stage
every guy rushes up to tip her and she never has a problem getting guys to
buy dances. Two Saturdays ago I went up to her while she was on stage and
said, "What does a guy have to do to convince your wondrous self to come
talk to him?"

This really seemed to impress her. She said she loves to hear guys talk
intelligently and asked me where I was sitting. I pointed out my table and
she told me she was with someone right now but would come over as soon as
she could, then she asked me my name and I told her my stage name was Bo.
She laughed and told me her real name was Monica.

I waited for an hour but her regulars totally monopolized her. She finally
came over right before she had to go back on stage and said how sorry she
was as she wrapped her arms around my neck. Although I had the urge to stick
around and wait for her to get done, (they have to go thru 3 stages at this
place) instead I got up and calmly said, "Well, maybe I'll catch you next
time." She says ok and apologizes again and hugs me again. I playfully tell
her she'll have to make it up to me next time and she says, "I will. I

Then I go in last Saturday and I see her with one of her regulars and he
hogs her until she goes up on stage an hour later. I go to tip her and
calmly say, "So I guess that guy wants you to spend all day with him."

She says, he's actually leaving and will come by to see me.

So finally she ends up coming over and we immediately move over to a booth.
We do some fluff talk. I find out she goes to school full time, her mother
is an alcoholic but she really loves both her parents. She seems pretty
intelligent and well adjusted as far as dancers go. From watching her before
I noticed she is really comfortable with walking around naked.

Anyway after some fluff I ask her if she's ever had her palm read and I do
the Celtic Soul Gazing pattern. From the very start she is into the pattern.
When I ask her "Can you feel that is an incredible thing to experience" she
smiles big and says "My eyes were starting to tear!" then I do the rest of
the pattern and she seems to really like it and asks "Do you do this often?"
I tell her if I think they're worthy. I keep holding her hand for a minute
after the pattern because she gives no sign that she wants me to let go.
Then I do let go when I show her the 4 magic questions which she also really

Then I read Eyes Across a Room and I see her eyes glazing and afterwards she
says, "Well, I can tell you've really been in love before!"

I find out she has a boyfriend after eliciting some values from her, which
is no surprise. Then I do the attraction vs. love pattern but don't do such
a good job linking it to me. I also ask her how all the attention she gets
from men has affected her outlook on men and she tells me the first six
months working there she hated sex but her outlook has changed and I elicit
how she enjoys sex and do a so-so job feeding it back to her.

She seemed to really be enjoying herself, smiling practically the entire
time, and she sat with me for almost an hour and never asked for a dance.
But eventually she left because she had several regualar waiting on her. My
plan now is to go back in about 2 weeks and read her Bishop's Warm Fuzzy. If
anyone can give me any other input I would greatly appreciate it.


Product Review:
I purchased the "Dating Dictionary" from and I would like to
give my thumbs up for this product.  Although I consider the SS Basic Home
Study course to be the single best product to transform yourself into a man
that women want to be with, I think that it concentrates more on the
tactical aspects of being with women and less on the overall strategy.  To
me the "Dating Dictionary" complements the SS Home study course very nicely
by giving men a better overall strategy of what women desire in men.  Some
of the better chapters include deciphering "womanese" and the strength
traits that women look for in men.  Most SS'ers will disagree with some of
the author's opinions but overall this guy knows his stuff.  The program
comes with two cassette tapes.  One tape is a lecture by the author and an
interview of the author.  On the 2nd tape the voice of the interviewer
sounds exactly like Ross J.  I found the "Dating Dictionary" met my
expectations and the author has a very entertaining writing style.  I
thought it was $99 well spent...................


>  What state is this?  A state of confidence I assume.  And why
>must one go there?  That is my ongoing thought whenever I see shit about
>state.  I've ignored almost all posts on states because I always thought of
>it as an entirely lameass concept.  Now for MY THOUGHTS finally on the

Mystery, you are displaying a WOEFUL ignorance on this subject.
Yes, taking action is ONE way to work yourself into a state. But you
can also mentally rehearse, indeed DESIGN a state so it is there for
you when the time for action comes.

Because YOU lack the tools to grab your state BEFORE you go into
action, don't assume others are so lacking, You are WOEFULLY wrong on
this....I've  helped literally thousands of guys get their asses in
gear by getting in their minds in line FIRST.

While I salute your courage in actively fighting your fear, that's
just ONE way to do it. And it's the hard way.

Now, I've personally cured LIFETIME phobias in under 10 minutes,
using NLP.  I'm talking folks with total terror. Telling them to just
"get moving" doesn't cut it; this ain't about willpower.  It's like
telling a deeply hypnotized subject not to respond to the hypnotist's

You are totally wrong on this one.
>People don't MEDITATE or listen to tapes or stand on their fucking heads
>just to get in a good mood so they can enjoy going out

Really? I'd bet lots of folks do SOME kind of ritual before they
engage in such activities. So speak for yourself.
>MOST people go out to have fun.

MOST people, including HB's, dressup and primp and fuss before they


> Following up on my comments that you published, I want to link the idea of
> hitting on the 7's as opposed to waiting for the elite to the whole neg
> discussion that is only starting to be understood for what it is.
> My own sister is easily a solid 9 (a 5'11" highly educated, intelligent
> brunette ... her and the boyfriend she lives with on the beach both have
> done some modeling and he is now a doctor in the final throws of becoming
> surgeon ... they are the beautiful people with the world at their feet). I
> grew up around her and her friends as the 'older very cool brother' (there
> is only 2 years difference). The superhotties are just girls. The same as
> 7's.

Rationally and from experience, what you are saying is solid gold. I can
that at university or write a bestselling book about it.
I'm often intimidated by pretty girls looks only to find out later (often
the opportunity is gone),  that she is ONLY A GIRL. The question is, HOW DO
natural part of one's perception. And please, don't suggest practice.


Fuck listening to tapes to get "in state".  Anytime I lack motivation to
going out and meeting women, I just read Mystery's posts!

Here's something that makes me feel better about picking up women. I used to
be upset with myself for not being as successful with women as I want to be.
And I used to think other guys have a lot more luck with women. Now I
realize that picking up women, anywhere, is a hard thing to do! And guys are
more or less all in the same boat. Those guys who don't make the effort to
meet women, are just not getting laid. However, those that do make the
effort, are that much farther ahead. So I don't worry now about how other
guys are getting women, because I know they are not! This helps me revel in
the fact that every time I do an approach, I'm that much farther in the game
than all those AFC's ; )
(Don't ask me why picking up women is so difficult, the problem lies with
the women for sure, and I don't know why they would rather be alone than
give guys more of a chance!)


Just got this from a HB.  Guys check out Rumi
Glorious is the moment we sit
     in the palace, you and I,
Two forms, two faces, but a single
     soul, you and I;
And the flowers will blaze, and
     and the birds will cry and
     shower us with immortality
The moment we enter
     the garden, you and I.
What a miracle, you and I,
One love, one lover, one fire,
     you and I.


Hyper Nova:
> You KEEP fighting it until the fear starts to go
> ... and then, you step up
> your pace.  I started with approaching 1:1 and now I
> can literally approach
> 10:1.  Am I scared?  Sure.  And it's exciting.

Agree with this! Only the real pros can admit that the
fear is always there... and can manage to live with
it. A story to share with you guys, regarding
fear--from Cus D'Amato himself:

Fighters are the most exposed athletes in the world.
During a fight, the crowd observes every twitch and
movement. Still, spectators rarely see fear in a
quality fighter. "That," says D'Amato, "is because the
fighter has mastered his emotions to the extent that
he can conceal and control them." But whatever a
fighter says, the fear is there. It never goes away.
He just learns to live with it. "And the truth is,"
D'Amato continues, "fear is an aspect to a fighter. It
makes him move faster, be quicker and more alert.
Heroes and cowards feel exactly the same fear. Heroes
just react to it differently. On the morning of a
fight, a boxer wakes up and says, 'How can I fight? I
didn't sleep at all last night.' What he has to
realize is, the other guy didn't sleep either. Later,
as the fighter walks toward the ring, his feet want to
walk in the opposite direction. He's asking himself
how he got into this mess. He climbs the stairs into
the ring, and it's like going to the guillotine. Maybe
he looks at the other fighter, and sees by the way
he's loosening up that his opponent is experienced,
strong, very confident. Then when the opponent takes
off his robe, he's got big bulging muscles. What the
fighter has to realize," concludes D'Amato, "is that
he's got exactly the same effect on his opponent, only
he doesn't know it. And when the bell rings, instead
of facing a monster built up by the imagination, he's
simply up against another fighter."


I really like this one:
>"This simple B&W approach to a complex situ shows me you haven't lived
>through it ... I'm dealing with this right now.  I WISH it were are easy as
>you make it out to be.  Morals are subjective ... there is a place for
>lying in this world.  LYING WORKS.  That is why it exists..."

This is good stuff and I'm so glad he brought this point up. In child
development, if a kid hasn't learned to lie by 8, then the kid is considered
developmentally challenged as lying is considered a good survival tool. And
our societies here on Earth are so diverse that what is considered highly
moral in one society would be rewarded by prison or death in another. But
lying is a universal.


Regarding the "Tao Of Steve" for those of you who've seen it, the main
character (Dex) says the 2nd rule is to do "something excellent in her
presence".  Dex doesn't bother to say what that means, though the director
implies something else. Would anybody care to elaborate on what "excellence"
(from what Dex says in the movie)  is by example?? Not vague esoteric
terms??? Much appreciated.


Mario (answering questions about Dynamic Hypnosis that he reviewed):
Unfortunately, it's an Italian site:
and there's a Brazilian site, but I don't think will be very useful.

He teaches courses on DH, which I'm attending now (3 weekends, one each
month-March/April/May). It really works as I said, in 2 to 3 minutes. It's
like the opposite of traditional hypnosis. I mean, you work with tension,
not with relaxing. As much more people (like everybody) can produce tension
in no time, it's easier and faster. The subject stays standing up during the
process (unless you order him to sit or lay down). There's the Advanced
Method, which is the one you all want (sneaky hypnosis), but I'm in the
middle of the Basic (direct hypnosis - the subject knows and accepts the
process). But, just for the record, it's quite impressive.

Review for Mystery:
>I wonder, after all this PREPARATION, how many women have you (not Cliff,
>the other guy) approached lately?  How many girls have you fucked in, say,
>the last year?  All this reviewed stuff is supposed to assist you in
>into STATE.  What state is this?  A state of confidence I assume.  And why
>must one go there?  That is my ongoing thought whenever I see shit about
>state.  I've ignored almost all posts on states because I always thought of
>it as an entirely lameass concept.  Now for MY THOUGHTS finally on the
>People don't MEDITATE or listen to tapes or stand on their fucking heads
>to get in a good mood so they can enjoy going out.  MOST people go out to
>have fun.  That means the act of going out and mingling ... the excitement
>of surprise ... is what people do to change state.  People go OUT to have
>fun, not stay in and trick themselves into having fun to go out.  This is
>fucking ridiculous.

Hello! Thank you for your opinion! I just want to review the products for
you because I really don't understand what you mean by combating the aware
state. Those products are not designed to do that! Awareness is a goal, not
something to be avoided. If you think what you have as awareness is enough
for you, OK! It doesn't mean I don't go out, or do just that.
>Hypno-seduction = CRAP
>Attitude Activator (from Rex Steven Sykes) = Great!
>Hypnotic Awakenings

Those three above are for designing the states Mystery's talking about, as I
understand it. Well, I know many of you use them or other similar ones.
Maybe Mys thinks that everybody should have it, but if that were so, you
wouldn't happen to have so many mails or products about it. But, if you
never experienced any limitation, I agree with you. Why bother about states?
Even so, I'd like to know if people think that HA is crap, because I don't.
But I envy you, in the sense that you have a way of thinking that maybe is
great! Yes, limitations are bullshit! You know that and apply that, what is
great and seems easy for you. And yes, you can just drop this limiting
belief, go out and create your state.

The other products are not for designing states of confidence, neither is
meditation. If you read about Dynamic Hypnosis, for instance, you'll see
that you can't hypnotize yourself, only others, with it. Or Chi-Gong, which
is for health. States are a consequence. I only mentioned to put it in the
context of Cliff's list. But it's a little part of it. And it works.
Confidence is one of the effects, not the goal.

Good that Mystery called my attention on that. I didn't mean to pass this
limiting idea.

Note: meditation to get into a good mood? Have you ever meditated? I think
so, as you are talking about it. but that's not the aim, it doesn't prevent
you from going out, and it wasn't "created" to get good at talking to women.
I won't go on about this,  just to know that, although I agree with your
opinion about states, I don't agree with the one about meditation. To be
sincere, I didn't even understand it. Please explain? I would appreciate
your knowledge. Thank you.


I sent the last e-mail, after making the changes you guys suggested...
I got this from the chick, I had asked help with....
>Well, your first poems weren't about soaking sheets.

My Comment:  Time to move on.  There are lots more where she came from.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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