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"Mystery Catches Up On His Comments"

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Mystery Catches Up On His Comments
4/5/01 6:31:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Mystery had a lot to say this week, and I thought there is some very
worthwhile remarks in here.  So here is the Mystery:

>There are different kinds of lies. There is the "No, Mr.
>Gestapo Man, Anne Frank and her family are not camped out in my attic",
>and then there is "No, I only love you and I'm not sleeping with that woman
>you found in my bed and I don't have herpes." I ain't some goodie-goodie
>telling everyone to behave here, but there is actual detrimental behavior
>there. The lying taboo is one of the oldest and most universal -- why?
>Because survival itself depends on my knowing if that saber-toothed cat
>is in fact sitting around the corner. Today you are giving that info to
>me; tomorrow I'll be giving it to you. In the absence of digital
>certificates of authenticity for every word people utter, trust is the
>that keeps us all alive.

And then there is the "No I'm not sleeping with another girl" not because
the truth has to do with life and death but because if you tell the truth
you will make her very unhappy. It's easier to lie than to change her
beliefs.  Most women believe marriage is a NORMAL part of life not
recognizing that it's merely a CULTURAL thing. It's a silly ritual but how
girls LOVE spellcraft.
>"Don't ever lie" is naive, but "life is complex so I need to lie" is, too.
>To make this less a philosophical debate and more
>applicable to seduction: in my experience, lying is hard,
>because you have to keep track of lies, and in the long run it damages your
>credibility and rep

How does my telling my LTGF she is the only one damaging my rep? My
rep to whom? And since I am not one to be fucked with, why would I care
what others think of me? If I have 2 GF's that's MY biz - if someone
were to fuck with me I'd break his legs - simple. Where is my
credibility damaged? Does my secretly having an affair make me less
credible? Do I damage my rep?
>-- see the 48 Laws of Power», Law #5: "So
>much depends on reputation -- guard it with your life."

There are 7 billion people on the planet - if a few hate me so be it.
A performer must risk his good rep every time he goes on stage - he
COULD bomb, after all. I'm not going to stay inside just because I'm
afraid I might fuck up my REP. Fuck what people think of me - the ones
I don't give a shit about anyways. I'm not intrinsically a bad guy.
Bad boy yes, bad guy no. I do what pleases me - I'm congruent. I'm not
out to hurt others unless they deserve to be punished. My other
thought is: my lies are only to protect the feelings of others who
would not be able to understand the complex nature of man.
>Besides, Mys, you say you want
>a challenge, but then you say lying makes things easier. What's
>it gonna be, chief -- the hard way or the easy lay?

We are talking about LTR's here, bro. Easy lays don't compute here. You
have a LTR and she becomes your ONLY one ... and then your PUing
finally lands another girl. You discover you won't have her unless you
say you are single so you do. Next thing you know, you have 2 GF's and 2
little lies. It's not like I can't keep track of my TWO lies. Pretty
simple really. I have many things to keep track of in a day - two
little lies is no huge encumbrance for the reward of having two girls
who love you. HOWEVER: that said, I am seriously considering dumping
GF2 and moving in with GF1. GF2 is beautiful but just doesn't taste
right. I like the idea of being able to dump a girl because I WANT to
even if she IS a HB.
>As for the STD argument ... it's OLD. I know my girls and I
>know myself.
>You fear the unknown ... if YOU had 2 GF's one after another
or both
>together, you share the same risks. Nothing like a visit to
the doctor by
>all parties to get clarity on the unknown factors.
>Hmmm -- interesting. Did you know that about 70% of all adults
>carry herpes simplex type I or II, and most of them don't know it?
>Did you know that carriers *always* have asymptomatic shedding (which
>means that what you don't know can hurt you)? Oh, and btw -- no need to
>visit the doc. I *am* the doctor. So just look before you leap, boys and

The "I *am a doctor" holds little water to truth either though I do not
dispute your statements.

My Comment:  Just for the record, Poetdude is a Harvard-educated MD.

Mystery Continues:  I get cold sores myself - have since I was
literally 4 years old. Certain THINGS come with the territory - if I
kiss a girl I MIGHT catch her cold. It's something that we all must be
willing to risk as the adults we are. This isn't going to STOP me from
kissing a girl. The ABSTAIN from KISSING logic just because you fear
getting a cold is just a little too conservative for my liking.
>In my book, basically there are only two rules: don't hurt
>yourself and don't hurt others. Lying usually hurts both parties in the
>short term, and always hurts yourself in the long run.

My lies comes from my not wanting to hurt the girls. If they knew I was
with another girl they would cry. Because they don' know they are in love
and feel loved and everyone is happy. It' too bad they didn't accept the
possibility of all living together with me in harmony (side note: one WOULD
but my first GF wouldn't ever so that is why, since I still prefer her, I am
planning on dumping GF2 even though she has agreed to be with me AND
another girl). This little drama in my life is FUN! I bet there are lots
of guys WISHING they had my problems so I don't feel too burdened by my own

Bad thing.
>I'd like to ask for advice from the list particularly from all
>the guys experienced in seducing strippers. There is this stripper I am
>working on and I'm trying hard not to put too much importance on her but it
>is very difficult.

How can you be WORKING on her? Either you got her in the first 25 min.
or you DIDN'T. If you did NOT get her interest and her # or instant
date (food after work) then you did NOT get her. If you have gone BACK
to her work trying some MORE - that is mental masturbation. Trust me.
I've got 8 strippers under my belt, one is my current LTR for 1.5 yrs.
I know the score.
>First of all my objective is to make her my girlfriend.

You ALREADY missed the boat. Move onto the NEXT stripper. And if you
find that thought difficult, then you ARE obsessing on the ONE! Bad
news and a waste of your energy. Why did she not CHOOSE YOU by the
end of your first meeting? Why not???
>It's hard to get her attention in the club because when she goes
>on stage every guy rushes up to tip her and she never has a problem
>getting guys to buy dances.

If she met you (even briefly) and you didn't have a chance to convey
your personality so she would CHOOSE YOU, then you fucked it up and
should move on. You only get ONE first impression. Don't bother trying
to FIX the situation because you fell into the damage zone ALREADY.
>Two Saturdays ago I went up to her while she was on
>stage and said, "What does a guy have to do to convince your wondrous self
>to come talk to him?"

I've been here man. And what I am about to tell you is sobering: you
are mentally masturbating. You have NO CHANCE with her. You
COMPLIMENTED HER as an OPENER. You have already LOST.
>This really seemed to impress her.

It didn't.
>She said she loves to hear guys talk
>intelligently and asked me where I was sitting.

You simply initiated her CUSTOMER CHAT PROGRAM.
>I pointed out my table and she told me she was with someone right now but
>would come over as soon as she could, then she asked me my name and I >told
her my stage name was Bo. She laughed and told me her real name was >Monica.

Still in CUSTOMER CHAT. A girl giving her real name means NOTHING
because all the guys ask for it.
> waited for an hour but her regulars totally monopolized her.
>he finally came over right before she had to go back on stage and said how
>sorry she was as she wrapped her arms around my neck.

>Although I had the urge to stick
>around and wait for her to get done, (they have to go thru 3
>stages at this place) instead I got up and calmly said, "Well, maybe I'll
>you next time." She says ok and apologizes again and hugs me again. I
>playfully tell her she'll have to make it up to me next time and she says,
>will. I promise!"

NOTHING of this conversation was out of CUSTOMER CHAT. You conveyed NOTHING
SPECTACULAR. She was just treating you like all her customers.  Or POTENTIAL
customers. Don't get suckered into the ACT my friend.  You have been
mentally masturbating enough to actually take the time to SEEK COUNCIL!
>Then I go in last Saturday and I see her with one of her
>regulars and he hogs her until she goes up on stage an hour later. I go to
>her and calmly say, "So I guess that guy wants you to spend all day with

You TIPPED her???!!! OK, you are fucked. You are now JUST a CUSTOMER to her.
You LOST. Move on. Listen, bro, I know what I'm talking about.  You fucked
up. Live and learn and move on.
>She says, he's actually leaving and will come by to see me.
>So finally she ends up coming over and we immediately move over
>to a booth.  We do some fluff talk. I find out she goes to school full
>her mother is an alcoholic but she really loves both her parents. She seems
>pretty intelligent and well adjusted as far as dancers go.

And NOTHING within this conversation is BEYOND CUSTOMER CHAT. Remember that
their stories have been told MANY TIMES. They aren't carefully constructed
at first (hence her STILL talking about the alkie mama) so
the stories just get repeated to all her customers. If you are even
TALKING about her school and family, you are talking about BORING SHIT
- the shit she talks about to ALL her customers. As for well adjusted
... they all know how to speak but you COULD have found a way to NEG
her - but you only neg when you are in a social group which you aren't
when in a 1:1. The way a neg works is to make OTHERS see she isn't all
that either.
>From watching her before
>I noticed she is really comfortable with walking around naked.

Dude! She's a fucking stripper. It's her JOB, man. Wow this is
starting to sound like RAY. You are POSTING your conversation with a
stripper. You didn't SEDUCE her, you simply were ENTERTAINED by an
ENTERTAINER. CUSTOMER CHAT is a part of their job. Holy.
>Anyway after some fluff I ask her if she's ever had her palm
>read and I do the Celtic Soul Gazing pattern. From the very start she is
>the pattern.

Many strippers are into supernatural shit. So this is good. But
watch out 'cause many men have been using tarot and such so make your
thing a little original.
>When I ask her "Can you feel that is an incredible thing to
>experience" she smiles big and says "My eyes were starting to tear!" then I
>the rest of the pattern and she seems to really like it and asks "Do you do
>this often?" I tell her if I think they're worthy. I keep holding her hand
>for a minute after the pattern because she gives no sign that she wants me
>let go.

Don't trust IOI's from a stripper. KINO IOI's must be fully disregarded.
>Then I do let go when I show her the 4 magic questions which she
>also really likes.
>Then I read Eyes Across a Room and I see her eyes glazing and
>afterwards she says, "Well, I can tell you've really been in love before!"
>I find out she has a boyfriend after eliciting some values from
>her, which is no surprise.

This was an autonomous response. Don't trust it. You simply triggered
that response by CONVEYING INTEREST in her. You DON'T do that
ESPECIALLY in the club. You came on too strong - you didn't create a
challenge. If she likes you, YOU WILL KNOW when she starts to show
STRONG INTEREST. Not kino but wanting to continue this after her
work. If she doesn't offer to see you outside the place it's a NO GO.
>Then I do the attraction vs. love pattern but don't do such
>a good job linking it to me. I also ask her how all the
>attention she gets from men has affected her outlook on men and she tells
me >the first six months working there she hated sex but her outlook has
>and I elicit how she enjoys sex and do a so-so job feeding it back to her.

Don't pace her reality. You asked a question that BORES her cause she
gets this thread alot. Its lameass. Bro - read the STRIPPER RULES by
Craig and I. I think you should MASTER STRIPPERS - don't give up cause
you fucked up several times. You just need to learn what NOT to do in
order to learn what TO do.
>She seemed to really be enjoying herself, smiling practically
>time, and she sat with me for almost an hour and never asked for
>a dance.

You detoured her a bit but if she were to want you she would have
already done so - strippers have CHOICE and when they DECIDE they go
for the jugular. She didn't. Move on. You will NEVER ... I repeat
NEVER ... EVER fuck this girl in your ENTIRE LIFE. Move on.
>But eventually she left because she had several regular waiting
>on her. My plan now is to go back in about 2 weeks and read her Bishop's
>Warm Fuzzy. If  anyone can give me any other input I would greatly
>appreciate it.

You already presented WHO you are to her. You can't just ADD to the
image and hope her perception of what has already happened changes. It
won't. She already said NO. Don't go back. Don't talk to her. She is a
NO GO. Give up. Find another stripper and TRY AGAIN from scratch. You
will be wasting your time entirely if you continue for her. What do
you think you can WEAR her down or something?
>> What state is this? A state of confidence I assume. And why
>>must one go there? That is my ongoing thought whenever I see
>>shit about state. I've ignored almost all posts on states because I
>>always thought of it as an entirely lame ass concept. Now for MY
>>THOUGHTS finally on the subject:
>Mystery, you are displaying a WOEFUL ignorance on this subject.
>Yes, taking action is ONE way to work yourself into a state. But
>you can also mentally rehearse, indeed DESIGN a state so it is there
>for you when the time for action comes.

I appreciate the mental rehearsal - I do this TOO - I mean look at me!
I think about this shit all the time and not just when I'm out hunting.
I believe in being mentally prepared but the rehearsal is with the
material and not TRYING to get into the aware state by myself. To me,
actually going OUT is STILL REHEARSAL. That is why I see it as a
holodeck. To do this INSTEAD of EXPERIENCING the real thing is to miss
>Because YOU lack the tools to grab your state BEFORE you go into
>action, don't assume others are so lacking, You are WOEFULLY
>wrong on this....I've helped literally thousands of guys get their asses
>in gear by getting in their minds in line FIRST.

LACKING? You statement ASSUMES I LACK tools which I believe is
incorrect and of course I am up to present my case in the field. I use
my previous EXPERIENCES to get the confidence to approach. The first
couple approaches of the day will be scary. But I go anyways because I
KNOW I'll get into gear (I know this cause it's happened before).
Granted on a royal AFC he has no such historical experience to fall
back on and may require some tricks. I think PRETENDING the field is a
holodeck MERGES the concept of mental rehearsal with the dynamics of a
real life situation. It's OK to bomb miserably in a holodeck because
it's just for REHEARSAL. IMAGINATION is not NEARLY as VIVID as my
HOLODECK. The desired outcome is to feel GOOD while talking with girls,
right? And we have 2 methods ... ONE is to MENTALLY VISUALIZE and the other
is to FAMILIARIZE. Which honestly do members of this list
believe to bring the person closer to the desired outcome? Anyone?
>While I salute your courage in actively fighting your fear,
>that's just ONE way to do it. And it's the hard way.

Is it HARDER? I suppose ... AND it's grabbing the bull by the horns. Do
the guys want to seduce HOTTIES or piddle around HOPING AND DREAMING ALL
WEEK only to get out ONCE in a blue moon? While most are PREPARING to live
the life, I'm out LIVING the LIFE.
>Now, I've personally cured LIFETIME phobias in under 10 minutes,
>using NLP.
>I think the word PHOBIA is a rather strong word for very normal reasonable
>ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY. People get anxiety before certain situations. >They
can THINK ABOUT THIS for hours before or jump in. Its like >jumping into a
cold pool. Some ease in slowly and complain for a long time >until they are
in. Others just stand there looking and thinking about it. And >then there
are the 3s rule guys ... just get in the fucking pool.
>I'm talking folks with total terror. Telling them to
>just "get moving" doesn't cut it; this ain't about willpower.

I suppose you HAVE to help those who are ARRESTED by ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY.
It's your income. I don't. I'm up for what works BEST. And I believe it IS
about willpower. There are those who FIGHT the fear and then there are the
cowards. While you HAVE to help them, I don't. I think they should just stay
home and masturbate until they die leaving no children. Natural selection at
work. I teach that for those
willing to TRY, you will learn how to CONTROL yourself WHEN you
experience those emotions. They won't vanish. It doesn't happen. You
can only learn to CONTROL your actions while in a fucked up state with
PRACTICE. LIVE PRACTICE. You don't learn to swim by reading about it.
You watch others and then jump in. Humans learn by IMITATION. Fake it
til you make it. FAKE being a PUA and over time as you become
competent you will BECOME a PUA. You can't fake being a PUA without
practicing the role. Shit or get off the pot.
>>People don't MEDITATE or listen to tapes or stand on their
>>fucking heads just to get in a good mood so they can enjoy going out
>Really? I'd bet lots of folks do SOME kind of ritual before they
>engage in such activities. So speak for yourself.

You know people who PREPARE to go to a party by some form of RITUAL?
Anyone who needs to PREPARE just to head out are NOT GETTING OUT
ENOUGH! And hell, I don't wanna hang out with losers like that. "I'm
too SCARED to talk to her!" You know what I say? "I'm JUST as scared
... but I'm going to fuck her while you masturbate alone. Bye."
>>MOST people go out to have fun.
>MOST people, including HB's, dressup and primp and fuss before

To prepare by making yourself culturally attractive is one thing. To
chant "People like me. They really like me" is to have Mystery steer
clear around THAT fuckin' loon. I wouldn't want such losers to be at
the parties I go to.
>>Following up on my comments that you published, I want to link
>>the idea of hitting on the 7's as opposed to waiting for the elite to the
>>whole neg discussion that is only starting to be understood for what it
>>My own sister is easily a solid 9 (a 5'11" highly educated,
>>intelligent brunette ... her and the boyfriend she lives with on the beach
>>both have done some modeling and he is now a doctor in the final throws
>>of becoming a surgeon ... they are the beautiful people with the world at
>>their feet). I grew up around her and her friends as the 'older very cool
>>brother' (there is only 2 years difference). The superhotties are just
>>The same as 7's.
>Rationally and from experience, what you are saying is solid
>gold. I can teach that at university or write a bestselling book about it.
>I'm often intimidated by pretty girls looks only to find out
>later (often when the opportunity is gone), that she is ONLY A GIRL. The
reality becomes a natural part of one's perception. >And please, don't
suggest practice.

That's like saying, "How do I get to the moon and please don't suggest a
rocket."  You are beating around the bush. Shit or get off the pot.
PRACTICE IS the answer. Why do EVERYTHING ELSE but what is NEEDED?
>Hyper Nova:
>>You KEEP fighting it until the fear starts to go
>>away ... and then, you step up your pace. I started with approaching 1:1
>>and now I can literally approach 10:1. Am I scared? Sure. And it's
>Agree with this! Only the real pros can admit that the
>fear is always there... and can manage to live with
>it. A story to share with you guys, regarding
>fear--from Cus D'Amato himself:
>Fighters are the most exposed athletes in the world.
>During a fight, the crowd observes every twitch and
>movement. Still, spectators rarely see fear in a
>quality fighter. "That," says D'Amato, "is because the
>fighter has mastered his emotions to the extent that
>he can conceal and control them." But whatever a
>fighter says, the fear is there. It never goes away.
>He just learns to live with it. "And the truth is,"
>D'Amato continues, "fear is an aspect to a fighter. It
>makes him move faster, be quicker and more alert.
>Heroes and cowards feel exactly the same fear. Heroes
>just react to it differently. On the morning of a
>fight, a boxer wakes up and says, 'How can I fight? I
>didn't sleep at all last night.' What he has to
>realize is, the other guy didn't sleep either. Later,
>as the fighter walks toward the ring, his feet want to
>walk in the opposite direction. He's asking himself
>how he got into this mess. He climbs the stairs into
>the ring, and it's like going to the guillotine. Maybe
>he looks at the other fighter, and sees by the way
>he's loosening up that his opponent is experienced,
>strong, very confident. Then when the opponent takes
>off his robe, he's got big bulging muscles. What the
>fighter has to realize," concludes D'Amato, "is that
>he's got exactly the same effect on his opponent, only
>he doesn't know it. And when the bell rings, instead
>of facing a monster built up by the imagination, he's
>simply up against another fighter."

Very good. This is fitting for my debate with Ross. Ross has to
convince cowards they are heroes. I don't. So if I say fight the fear
and act anyways, I'm saying this from a HERO's point of view. Cowards
will always say "it's easier said than done." Sure it's easier said, but
the one saying it is also the one who DOES IT. Shit or get off the pot,
gentlemen. If you can't face your fear, since the feeling will NOT go
away, you might as well fuck off entirely. Don't bother learning to
fight if you will only turn back before you even SEE your opponent.
>I really like this one:
>>"This simple B&W approach to a complex situ shows me you
>>haven't lived through it ... I'm dealing with this right now. I WISH it
>>are easy as you make it out to be. Morals are subjective ... there is a
>>place for lying in this world. LYING WORKS. That is why it exists..."
>This is good stuff and I'm so glad he brought this point up. In
>child development, if a kid hasn't learned to lie by 8, then the kid
>is considered developmentally challenged as lying is considered a good
>survival tool. And our societies here on Earth are so diverse that what is
>considered highly moral in one society would be rewarded by prison or death
>in another. But lying is a universal.

Here, here! : ) I think you and I have been watching the same
>Review for Mystery:
>>I wonder, after all this PREPARATION, how many women have you
>>(not Cliff, the other guy) approached lately? How many girls have you
>>fucked in, say, the last year? All this reviewed stuff is supposed to
>>you in getting into STATE. What state is this? A state of confidence I
>>assume. And why must one go there? That is my ongoing thought whenever >>I
see shit about state. I've ignored almost all posts on states because I
>>always thought of it as an entirely lame ass concept. Now for MY
>>THOUGHTS finally on the subject:
>>People don't MEDITATE or listen to tapes or stand on their
>>fucking heads just to get in a good mood so they can enjoy going out.
>>MOST people go out to have fun. That means the act of going out and
>>mingling ... the excitement of surprise ... is what people do to change
state. >>People go OUT to have fun, not stay in and trick themselves into
having fun >>to go out. This is fucking ridiculous.
>Hello! Thank you for your opinion! I just want to review the
>products for you because I really don't understand what you mean by
>combating the aware state. Those products are not designed to do that!
>Awareness is a goal, not something to be avoided.

AWARE STATE: when you are fucking scared shitless to approach a HB.
The solution is to go ANYWAYS. Not TRY to get out of that state.
>If you think what you have as awareness is enough  for you, OK! It doesn't
>mean I don't go out, or do just that.
>>Hypno-seduction = CRAP
>>Attitude Activator (from Rex Steven Sykes) = Great!
>>Hypnotic Awakenings
>Those three above are for designing the states Mystery's talking
>about, as I understand it. Well, I know many of you use them or other
>similar ones.  Maybe Mys thinks that everybody should have it, but if that
>were so, you wouldn't happen to have so many mails or products about it.
>But, if you never experienced any limitation, I agree with you. Why bother
>about states?  Even so, I'd like to know if people think that HA is crap,
>because I don't.  But I envy you, in the sense that you have a way of
>that maybe is great! Yes, limitations are bullshit! You know that and apply
>that, what is great and seems easy for you. And yes, you can just drop this
>limiting belief, go out and create your state.

Did I say it's EASY?  Nope. What I do MOST people CAN'T. Does it
come easier for ME?  No. It's HARDER. I just jump HIGHER - I expect
MORE from myself, that's all.  And the experience I got for thinking
this way now affords me to chase better, stronger and faster. Two
people start with the same AFCness. One listens to tapes while the
other just GOES and gets experience taking his lumps.  Who do you
think will be better at the end of the year? Seriously. The only
reason I can do what others CAN'T is because I took my lumps. If you
aren't willing to FEAR ... then you aren't willing toWIN. I CHALLENGE
ANYONE! Step up.
>The other products are not for designing states of confidence,
>neither is meditation. If you read about Dynamic Hypnosis, for instance,
>you'll see that you can't hypnotize yourself, only others, with it. Or
>Chi-Gong, which is for health. States are a consequence. I only mentioned
to >put it in the context of Cliff's list. But it's a little part of it. And
it works.
>Confidence is one of the effects, not the goal.
>Good that Mystery called my attention on that. I didn't mean to
>pass this limiting idea.
>Note: meditation to get into a good mood? Have you ever
>meditated? I think so, as you are talking about it. but that's not the aim,
>doesn't prevent you from going out, and it wasn't "created" to get good at
>talking to women.  I won't go on about this, just to know that, although I
>agree with your opinion about states, I don't agree with the one about
>meditation. To be sincere, I didn't even understand it. Please explain? I
>appreciate your knowledge. Thank you.

There are two ways to obtain knowledge. Close your eyes and dream or
open your eyes and systematically explore reality. Which do you think
will give you more knowledge at the end of the day? If you know the
answer to this, you will know WHY meditation is bunk.
>> GameMaster: So Mystery is a prettyboy? I fukin' knew it. I
>>want more advice from old ugly guys like me ; ))~

Yeah, I guess I am a prettyboy. I assure you it's not a great
help though. (I wish!) So long as you are healthy it's all
good. If you have ISSUES (skin issues say) then you will have
some limitations. Thing is, I think lots of people I would call
ugly are considered hot to certain girls. Its so fucking
subjective. I have long hair so this limits me ALOT. I have to
go for a certain TYPE of girl - the ones who prefer long hairs.
Good news is, that includes strippers! : )
>Whether or not he is a pretty boy doesn't matter so long as the
>methodology he is using is applicable for you. Usually, it takes more than
>merely being a prettyboy to seduce a woman. Being a prettyboy primarily
>helps with step #1 -- Get their attention.

I think where it can help is in not looking SCARY when you begin the
chat. It doesn't OPEN the set but it doesn't create FEAR.
>Once you have your foot in the door you still
>need to be able to perform. Remember beauty is common and women
>know there are other pretty  boys. Plus, being a prettyboy can help him get
>lots of experience which he can then use to be a better seducer.
>>Those other elements do NOT include groups, however. SS is
>>for 1:1. MM is for 1:5 ... BECAUSE ... 10's are usually already
>>surrounded by people. It's rare to find a 10 all alone. And, while you MAY
>>find them alone, what about all the other situs where they are NOT alone?
I >>guess that's my point for the day. We mustn't be afraid of approaching a
>>target just cause she MAY be sitting with her BF.
>SS certainly includes groups, i.e. RJ's acting gay routine.

I think we need to EXPAND things. Saying THIS is SS and THAT is
MM is limiting. MM will INCLUDE SS ideas and SS will INCLUDE MM
ideas if we SAY SO. It's all about the PUA anyways. Storytelling
has ALWAYS been a part of MM AND SS - we need SOMETHING to convey our
they ALL convey our personality.
>>Most of Mystery's routines are actually storytelling intended
>>to install emotional states. SOUND FAMILIAR?
>Then he's doing SS, just another brand name and a different
>flavor, but it's STILL SS.

If someone tells a story he is doing SS? Why lay claim to STORYTELLING as
uniquely SS? I think our CLAIMING what is what is getting out of hand. A
limiting factor to this art form (the PUA) is that we are differentiating
methods for copyright (and income) reasons. Fuck this. I mean, SS patterns
are a particular FORM of story. Well structured STORIES. We call these
PATTERNS. That's cool. And there are OTHER structured routines ... some are
STORIES and some are GAMES and such. It's ALL PUA. SS could use a revamp to
INCLUDE group tactics. MM could use a revamp to INCLUDE patterns. It's all
about mental modals - a grand unification is necessary if
our models are in fact ACCURATE to reality. SS to me makes complete
sense in the framework of MM. If OWNERSHIP were not an issue we
would be further ahead. I want to UPDATE ideas ... not be BIBLICAL
and say THIS is MM and it's unchanging. I care only about what
works. I would ASSUME SS changes too. Only it seems like it's
becoming a bit to UNCHANGING too RIGID. This is partially the fault
of me too after all as we are the ones DEFINING what SS IS. There is
very rarely a conflict of ideas. You say guys need to MENTALLY
REHEARSE while I say the rehearsal should be more tangible. Truth
is, both WORK. I KNOW LIVE FIELD REHEARSAL (holodeck metaphor)
works because I USE it successfully. I know your method works
because you've helped a plethora of AFC's get out of their shells.
They are obviously BOTH valid. So why not work on discovering the
definitive efficient solution? It's BOTH depending on the student's
COMMITMENT to the art.
>But I don't think that is all he is doing......
>>2) To give her that feeling like you are accustomed to being
>>around attractive women, and that you see her as a girl, not as a
>>goddess. So she knows you are on her level and not groveling at her feet.
>Repeat 5,000,000 times.
>>3) To create a challenge for her and bait her to pursue you.
>>If you REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, Negs are a powerful tool, to be
>>used in a targeted fashion, and they really are directly in line with
>>basic SS philosophy. I am sick and tired of seeing people misinterpret
>Hey, don't blame the SS list; negs are off topic and we discourage
>stuff's off topic!

A perfect example of DENYING TRUTH. The world is flat because the
bible SAYS it is. Once we discover something may need updating, why
not simply UPDATE IT? Why can't we change the bible? Why can't we
CHANGE the PUA as we discover better cognitive models? This is
science not religion. We need to change our frame. Because NEG's
aren't a part of SS it can't be talked about? Hell ... TALK about it
if the model FITS reality. EXPAND SS to include the reasoning of
OTHERS. There is no RIFT BETWEEN MM and SS. They are changing
subsets of PUA. At least MM is changing. I can allow it to change
and advance because, hell, I'm not making money off it. Once you put a
price on something, to update is to admit the old stuff wasn't
PERFECT. NEG's WORK. MM once didn't HAVE choose Gino gambit in it.
It does now. I've discarded several ideas because I have invented
better mental models. Like, it was No9 who pointed out that I would
use NEG's in groups to lower the self esteem of the target in front of
her very own peer group. NEG's aren't great on a 1:1 with the target.
SOME NEG's are valid but others aren't good for 1:1, like the pull my
finger NEG which, in a 1:1, would be just lame ass. And to NEG
Theory, with the help of others, refines itself. My book, The
Mystery Method» actually have a VERSION # under the title. Like a
program. It evolves and get more comprehensive as I refine things -
fix bugs, beta-test, etc. I believe strongly that SS could use such a
modern approach rather than being UNCHANGING.

My Comment:  If not for "seduction in general" being also off topic on the
SS list, this list probably wouldn't exist.
>Here are some example Negs:
>"You've got some lipstick on your tooth."

Perfect example of a neg that when done 1:1 doesn't work. But if you
WHISPER this to the girl while in her own peer group, this shuts her
up, makes her feel self conscious and you can then be the center of
attention while you (and her group) ignore her.
>"Oh that's so cute...your nose wiggles a bit when you talk! :-)
>Say something...there it goes again :-)"

This could be done 1:1 but this too is better in a group.
>"You know I really like you but I probably wouldn't take it any
>further, you're too much of a nice girl for me :-)"

Good for 1:1. complimenting a girl may not be so good in groups
because you raise her ego too much.  The veiled compliment is still
>How about this one? "You know, if I didn't think you were such a
>white-bread kinda girl, I'd totally be pursuing you!"

Another compliment veiled and that means don't do it in a group.
>>Those other elements do NOT include groups, however. SS is for
>>1:1. MM is for 1:5 ... BECAUSE ... 10's are usually already surrounded
>>by people. It's rare to find a 10 all alone.
>Ok..Got it. Now I DO get it. Good distinction and Mys has a
>strong, VALID point. So by displaying the talkative, entertaining, somewhat
>flamboyant "host" "grand master of ceremonies" persona you:
>1. Establish you are a socially approved person, and thus worthy
> of her interest.
>2. Get immediate attention from the group or part of the group
>so you can get the interest and attention of OTHER hot women on the
>3. Display a FRIENDLY confidence (versus nasty or

Yeah. MC, that's good. I call it ENTERTAINER. HOST is maybe a better
word. Like you are the owner of the club as you say, "So how's
everyone doing over here? Good?"
>>Once you engage her attention through being the grand-host/mc
>>rather than the guy hitting on her, you further display your fascinating
>>lifestyle by telling stories that lead her imagination, along with getting
>>"kino", demonstrating you are comfortable around hotties by "negging"
>etc. etc.
>I get it. Why didn't you just SAY so? Lay out the algorithm....
>My dispute was with the "waiting for her to show signs of
>interest"....but I understand the context, and it was about getting
>Gotcha! good stuff. When are you cumming to LA?

I see! Yeah, people were calling me PASSIVE! I'm anything but. I
PRESENT myself to a group and ENTERTAIN. Ignoring the target for a
bit and negging, she soon becoming challenged to engage me in
conversation. I then go 1:1 with her (after getting group's permission,
hehe) and don't show INTEREST until she shows interest. Those are
IOI's. You don't WAIT for her to show them either. You ACTIVELY TEST
for IOI's. For instance: last Wednesday I was with a good buddy wing
of mine and I was chatting it up with a girl. I stopped talking and
she started up with "So ..." THIS is an IOI. But I must FORCE silence
to TEST her. I used to call this PINGING in my very old posts. You
PING her to see if she responds favourably. Another one I use is
this: I hold her hands and look at her hands to see if her fingers
wrap around my hands ... if she just holds her hands curiously with
fingers still straight, I know the test failed and I have to keep
storytelling til I test or ping again for a response. There are ALOT
of PINGS (tests) to perform in order to test for IOI's. (indicators of
interest). We should site more examples.
>>That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have
>>met Mys and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more
>>passive approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE CHUTE HIS LOOKS >>ARE GOING TO
>>Mys, where would you be without your looks? A person who's met
>>you describes you as "gorgeous" and no, he isn't gay. So, can we
>>really accept that what you say is going to work when it does NOT
>>rely on languaging to get past looks, as SS does?
>Hmmnn .. Myst is good-looking and dresses well, but is skinny
>like a twig, a little geeky, has a huge schnoz, wears glasses, his
>skin-complexion is not the best, and he is weak like a girly-mon. I think
Leo >Dicaprio could kick his girly-ass. Plus, he has this gastro-intestinal
problem >and can't control his flatulence, to the point where .. ookay, that
is just way
>too much information (haaa!) Not your prototypical gorgeous stud .. but
>he gets by on social-proof.

It's nice to have friends back you up. *shrug* haaa.
>Many years ago when we were sitting in some buddies basement ..
>rolling dice, and saying, "You can't cast magic missile! You don't have
>it readied yet!" ...the ladies weren't exactly throwing themselves at us
>back then, you know?!  Seriously, if he relied on looks alone, he'd be
where >*he used to be* .. cradling his drink in some dark corner, staring at
the girls,
>and wondering why he wasn't getting any.
>I don't get the passive comment .. in the last 6 months, I only
>remember he got approached twice, out of a few hundred sets, and both >were
UGs. I'd say that doesn't qualify as 'passive' .. and he talks .. ALOT. >He
handles about 90% of the direction and verbal exchange. I would say his
>story-telling skills are very good, but one of his best skills is getting
>state quickly. He can go from "my life sucks" to ENTHUSIASTIC in a
>heartbeat. That is a really understated ability. And the trigger is always
some >girl ...

REMEMBER this more.
>>Lovedrop responds:
>>I absolutely have to respond here because I believe that Neg
>>theory is the single most misinterpreted technique there is. Most everyone
>>have misconceptions about what Negs are and how they work, and
>>people make judgments based on their misconceptions. I'd like to clear
>>this up, once and for all.
>Lovedrop, you took the words out of my mouth. Negs are not
>malicious, you're not putting down the girl, you're teasing her (pull my
>Yeah there a few harsher Negs, and some women respond to the
>verbal slap ...
>avoid them .. just follow the basic rule of "keep it fun and
>playful" and you can't go wrong.
>Have you guys ever seriously gone up against a REAL 10? You
>actually think a 10 will ALLOW you to 'help her discover, appreciate,
>and savor the power they never knew they had?" SERIOUSLY?
>It's the isolation of your target, and consistently
>demonstrating enough for her to be intrigued and want to talk to you.
>And yes, you can sneak under the radar, because it's not just
>avoiding talking sexually to her - it's because you're not talking *to
>her* at all - you are addressing and intriguing the entire group. You want
to >get to the point where she is eager to speak to you.
>Think about it - you are some random guy .. who is she going to
>be more interested in? The guy who approaches her initially with fluff
>talk, or the guy who entertains her friends, makes them laugh and enjoy
>themselves, and then turns to her and says, "Hey, I've been wanting to talk
>you ... let me get your opinion on something .."

I LOVE it when an idea has CLARITY!!!! FINALLLY!!!!!
>>Mystery: Remember that a 10 is not only a hottie but has some social
>>quality ... like Winona Rider. She is a 10. Maybe not because of looks but
>>because of social status."
>Winona Ryder went to my high school before I attended. She was
>actually a very shy girl and was an outcast - the type that dresses all
>weird and sits in the back of the class all quiet. I guess she came a long
>since then! Kind of like Mystery did in reference to his PU arts, and a lot
>of us have a long road ahead, but success will be ours!

Really? Very cool. Hook me up!!! ; )
>about negs.
>This debate is strange. I don't see why so many people find it
>hard to understand how easily these could work. It's OBVIOUS that they
>have to be done with the right playful attitude. To clarify, let me recount
>two brilliant anecdotes from the one and only Major Mark.
>One day, he was sitting in a restaurant that was so full there
>was a long lineup to get in. He looks up and sees the actor Jimmy Smits
>(from NYPD Blue) standing in the line. He tells the waiter to call him
>over. Smits walks over, the Major says 'Listen I'll let you share my table
>under one condition.' The guy is very puzzled. Major continues 'that you
>don't talk to me'.
>'What????' says the actor. 'It's just that, don't take this personally but
I have >alot of work to do while I eat. But like I said, please feel free to
have a seat'
>Of course they ended up having a great conversation. Before I
>point out what it is about this exchange that is so powerful (though you
>already figure this out!) let me tell you the next one which is even
>The Major is sitting in a bar, in walks Charlie Sheen with a
>bunch of guys. Charlie sits at a table and starts drinking and being the
>typical center of attraction as he is use to. Suddenly, he looks up at the
>and says 'Why are you staring at me?'
>'Weren't you in one of my seminars?' answers the Major without
>missing a beat... 'What????????' (same answer as the other guy, did you
>notice?). Don't you know who I am????'
>'I'm sorry I have a lot of students and I sometimes forget
>names. But I do think I remember you from one of my seminars.'
>Charlie Sheen motions Mark over and says to his buddies 'get a
>load of this guy, he has no clue who I am!!' And from then on they had a
>great time all of them together!
>While these are not technically neg hits, they are EXACTLY what
>Mystery is talking about when he says that if you treat these people like
>the gods they often think they are, or at least the way all the other
>out there do, then you STAND NO CHANCE whatsoever of getting in >under
their radar.

YES! Seducing a 10 or 'seducing' a celeb is the same thing. I have
met some Hollywood celebs and used these tactics to gain rapport. It is
the same thing entirely!
>How well do you think the Major would have done if he had approached
>them with a compliment, or even worse, a request for an autograph...
>food for thought...

NEG's WORK. 10's THINK they are celebs. And the 10's I call tens are
REAL 10's.  Not 8's that guys SAY are tens just cause the girls are
better than average. I want 10's!!!! REAL L.A. 10's! In the meantime, my
LTR is NOT a 10 ... but I love her none the less so I'm in a fucked up
situ. I want to move in with my girl though she is not the best in the
world. I suppose there is an element of settling. Not because I give
up but because I truly enjoy her. So you will likely hear me settle
down for a while. I will be focusing on other issues in my life.
However, life is not over. When it is time to POWER UP again, I will.
I just haven't been learning anything new and besides, if I'm not
learning NOR finding WORTHY GIRLS, why bother? I'll wait it out now til
I actually come across a WORTHY 10. Til then I will slow it down - til
I get to L.A. anyways. In Toronto, I need to complete other objectives so
it looks like I'll be moving in with my GF. I will also be closing down
all my other opportunities. I am willing to accept the lack of freedom
for a while in exchange for the freedom I will get WITH HER. Shared
living. And to be honest, of ALL the girls I've fucked, she is the best
lover yet! seriously. She's an exotic dancer ... but MORE THAN THAT,
too. I love her and am willing to be JUST with her for now til I enter
the next phase of my life. In other words, I've been neglecting many
areas of my life because of this chasing girls thing. It's time to
focus on LIFE GOALS and wait it out for getting the 10's when I am in a
better position to FIND them.
>Many Thanks to everyone, especially Ross and Mystery for
>fantastic guidance! In the last 3 years since I first visited» and attended Ross's seminar in Palo Alto ('97), my life has
>definitely improved.

Improved?  How many women have you laid in the last 3 years?
>As my skills and successes have increased however,
>I've discovered that I have a particular area in need of improvement.
>I seldom call a woman's bullshit correctly or on time! I have
>plenty of experience now and know that if a single respect-building
>opportunity is missed, particularly early-on, then the game is off!

Solution: call them on their bullshit BEFORE it is bullshit. Whenever a
girl says something ASSUME it's bullshit.
>This ("Can Mr. Nice enter the body...?") came out a while back,
>but I've been pondering a few short references that appear here.
>I've taken so much from you guys, I think that my deficiency may be a way
>give back.
>Ross, in particular, perhaps you can expand and develop the
>bullshit detection and calling aspect of SS. Because, it isn't really
>that I can't CALL a woman's BS, but more that I fail to DETECT it at THAT
>CRITICAL MOMENT that she introduces it.

Assume it is ALL BULLSHIT. It's better to ACT like you are seeing it
than to actually see it.
>Maybe we could develop and affirmation for BS Detection . . .
>Ross says below that many frustrated, angry men fail with women
>because they fail easily anticipated tests.

Hoop theory. Ross and I have to work on Hoop theory together! oooh
I have another theory I'm working on. This is large chunk now but:
CAT THEORY. In cat theory, if you take a string and wiggle it in
front of a lazy cat, she will chase it. Not because she KNOWS it's
fun. Not because she is HUNGRY for a fucking string either. It's
because it is WIGGLING. That is it. Cats have a built in "get the
wiggling thing" curiousity hardwired into the brain. So do women.
They too have this. So if you come along and wiggle yourself in front
of her like a string and pull it away just as she goes to sniff it,
she will begin to chase it.  She isn't chasing because he consciously
WANTS the string (you) not because she thinks it will be fun but
because it's HARD TO CATCH. She didn't want you to start. She didn't
even THINK about catching you. But once you wiggled your string, she
came and played your game. After a while you let the cat catch the
string and she'll chew it for a while afterwards. Why? Because it
took time to get it and is therefore valued. Also, the excitement
(adrenaline) of the catch will stick around for a while. At first
the cat didn't care about the string and then after a wiggle it did.
the only difference was the WIGGLE! SO ... that is CAT THEORY. What
are ways in which we WIGGLE? Ross? Any suggestions?
>This is what I'm talking about. Could we elaborate here? I've been
practicing >seduction theory for 3 years, but don't assume too much . . . I
seem to be >falling at the first step.
>Also, Many Thanks to Mystery for Neg-Hit Theory, I use it
>regularly (not on One-Eyed Hags!!! Hahahahaha!) I'm very interested in
>your comments on challenging, and am looking forward to learning more
>about your thoughts and experience on exactly how to PRESENT and >FRAME the

CAT THEORY and structuring challenges is near the same I suppose. I
want to work the metaphor out more. Oh, and when will someone update
the archives - cause it's NEG THEORY and not NEG-HIT. There is no
HITTING on a girl.
>Please elaborate . . .
>... if she TESTS you, don't jump through her HOOP (HOOP
>THEORY). Simply call her on it and/or construct your own HOOP.
>Please elaborate on HOOP THEORY!!!

No9? Care to take this one?
>Structure challenges? Yes ... a NEG WILL do that. She will
>feel that you don't like her as much as all the other guys so will try
>harder to make you. Please elaborate on structuring Challenges!!!

This is new stuff. I know I DO it, I just haven't created a mental
model. Cat Theory is my attempt to do so in a visual metaphor.
>>Mystery: Very interesting OPENER concept. I'm curious as to
>>the various reactions you've gotten in the field. Can you give some
>>scenarios (and not just the good ones but the bad ones too).
>Myst: This is straight out of Persuasion Engineering by Bandler
>and LaValle.

>I never said you were born in a bubble. I am merely pointing
>out that some of your notions about SS are not accurate (at
>least IMHO).
>Have you ever to any of RJ's tape or video series that have
>produced during the last 4 years?

Yep. All of it. People send me stuff.
>I think your understanding of SS is based primarily upon what
>you learn from the internet, and that doesn't include much of
>SS,including the most powerful aspects of SS. Have you ever attended one of
>his seminars?

Not yet.
>I don't think SS is the be all and end all. I was seducing
>beautiful women years before I ever heard of SS or Ross. I do think SS is
>excellent workable system that people can use to transform their life and
>get the results they want with women while leaving the women better
>than when they found them.

So far we are in agreement.
>I don't think it is the only system, but I think it is the best
>system that I have come across for seduction. Personally, if I'm not
>seducing her by making her feel better, then I'm not interested.

MM (Mystery Method») is not about TEARING women down. 'NEG
Theory' is about LOWERING their bloated self esteem so you can then REWARD
her behavior by making her feel good.
>I think that is half the fun. Personally, I'd rather create
>interest than merely hope to see indicators of interest (IOI's).

MM is not passive. It's ABOUT creating interest. You look for
indicators AFTER you've performed routines that demonstrate or
convey your character. It's not about HOPING she'll like the way you
look. It's about performing actions and behaviors that will make her
WANT YOU.  Before I tell my 5 or so routines, she doesn't want me. BUT ...
AFTER I perform those routines, she starts showing IOI's. So ...
there must be something in those routines that cause her to like me. It's
like a comedian ... BEFORE his act you don't know him or care about him
but after, you like him.
>Mystery, I feel like your trying to turn this into a
>one-upmanship contest rather than a productive dialogue.

Nope. Just enjoying clarifying misunderstood concepts.
>I feel like you've been misquoting me and twisting my words.
>Remember, we both understand about thought viruses, language patterns,
>propaganda and the like. I think you're playing games by making vague
>references to logical fallacies.

My references have been anything but vague. When you create a
logical fallacy, I point it out specifically.
>I'm not only familiar with the baloney detection kit, but I can
>also point you to the academic sources on critical thinking and logic
>(Check out "Critical Thinking: Evaluating Claims and Arguments in Everyday
>Life by Brooke Noel Moore and Richard Parker -- is a good starting
>point). It is very slick the way you accuse me of a "slippery slope" but
>you don't point to any slippery slope.

I had assumed it was self evident - it's unfortunate I don't
have logs now to finally end this thread neatly.
>Chapter 2 of the above book starts with a discussion of
>unclarity and ambiguity. "A claim is vague if it lacks sufficient precision
>to convey the information appropriate to its use." p25. The fact is
>that your accusation is a logical fallacy and a manipulative game. I find
>that you're frequently engaging in the "Straw Man" (p.109)."The so-called
>straw man pseudo argument is what you get when a claimor position (x) is
>alleged to be refuted because of a successful attack on a distorted,
>exaggerated, weak or misrepresented version of it ("X"). In other words, an
>opponent's real position is ignored while a "straw" version of it is
>attacked: "X" is false because "X" is false." Your vague comment about the
>fallacies and the slippery slope is another example of this.

All fair concepts. And throwing this into the mess is also a
form of "bullshit baffles brains." If you go back to read what you
wrote, you will see what the slippery slope I was referring to. I believe
if I can recall the specific issue, was neg theory where you say that
negging is to destroy her reality. NEGGING is SHORT-TERM. A
neg is just a statement you make in the first 25 minutes of the PU. It
isn't some long term character attack on the girl. I am completely
willing to lose this battle because I come unprepared: I delete Cliff's
newsletters that I've read and can't find the evidence of your
fallacy.  Poor me.
>How about looking at the accuracy of my statements and the
>usefulness of what I write.

Resend the text you typed that I had initially replied to and we
can (for anal thoroughness' sake) once and for all know that Mystery
was correct. OR ... say that we don't care 'cause the argument went
off topic. Although I do enjoy arguments : ) That's part of the
fun. If we all agreed then what, right?
>GameMaster: There ain't no such thing as a 10. I have known
>several 9's in my life that always sooner or later proved that
>they had a big ole' fucking hole in their head thereby rendering their
>status to the negative column.One of the greatest pieces of graffiti that I
>ever came across read "No matter how hot the woman, somewhere, >someplace
is a guy who is fed up with her shit!"

When a PUA rates a girl a 10, he isn't claiming she is PERFECT.
Perfect is far too subjective. We rate a girl so we can gauge how we
shall approach her ... after all, the approach to an HB is different
from that of a B.
>My Comment: I think that what Ross was talking about is that
>Mystery's looks provide him the opportunity to go to the next step, to
>show his attitude and style. Years ago when I was totally inexperienced
>and did not consider myself particularly attractive, I had (and it actually
>still happens the odd time) some women immediately express how
>uninterested they were. I used to believe that I just didn't have the looks
>needed to attract these women but the real important part is that they
>wouldn't stay put long enough to talk to you. Without getting their ear at
>all, you can't get any where (of course, there are retaliatory tactics
which are
>available, but that's another story).

I understand that we must do what we must to get her ear. If we
are particularly good looking, we WILL get her ear. I don't think
it's my looks that assist me in them listening to my opener. I think
it's more about grooming. If I were dressed like shit and smelled, they
would brush me off. Grooming is the REAL INSTANT EAR OPENER. And
then, of course, since I know a 10 won't even lend me her ear at all, I
have to provide initial social proof. I don't have the looks to get the
ear of a 10. SO ... I need her to see me with other girls first so
when I approach she has curiousity about me. This is pawning. Once, I
was talking with 2 girls and then a better girl (a blond) sat beside
me. I turned and started talking to her right away (3 second rule) and
I am CERTAIN the conversation sparked BECAUSE I wasn't a threat
thanks to the girls she THOUGHT I was with. So ... it's not about looks.
It's about grooming and social proof. And then you BEHAVE as if you WERE
good looking. Not through conceit but rather through sincere
acceptance of your great appearance. If you are healthy, you are good
looking.  Leave it at that. I don't have fucked up moles and shit. If
you don't either, good. Now drop the issue. We can't change this
anyways. I wish I were better looking but I'm not. So I deal with it by
appearing good looking thanks to my behavior, my grooming (clothing) and
social proof.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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