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No matter what your ride is, you ought to keep it clean
4/8/01 2:04:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Ok, I think I owe most of you an apology for not doing my job here.  Some of
the discussion recently has gotten too far off topic and is heading in the
wrong direction.  Just so that you know, anything that interests me is on
topic but as a general rule that shouldn't veer too far away from seduction
related subjects.  I am going to be a bit ruthless with my editing for
little while because the comments that don't benefit us by teaching us
something are already causing problems.  I received several emails from
people asking me to keep some controls over what is appearing and others
even indicating a hesitancy to post because they are afraid of the kind of
responses they may get.  And that's not the idea at all so I am doing a
little cleaning below.  If you don't like it, take it up with me but it will
be off list.


Jason is looking for wingmen in Sydney to help him out.  Email him at
bab***9@ho***.com[ ? ]


GameMaster (From private email):
It's looking like I've got a full time GF again. Natalie, the model I told
you about! Check this out....40-25-32 and an absolute tiger at 24. This is
gonna take all my strength to ride this one out. The good news is
she's got money and is a mirror of my metaphysical self. I swear I think
she was hand "delivered" to me based on my daily devotionals recently and
fact that I have finally gotten my ex off the brain.

Natalie is supposed to send me her portfolio before she comes to pick me up
for lunch today. Now, I do not plan to make the mistake I made before again
by blowing off the rest of the harem...that was a major lesson that I won't
soon forget. I think part of Natalie's motivation is she knows there's a lot
of competition out there. Matter of fact, after our first date when she told
me to go fuck off at the end of the night cause she couldn't make a dent in
armor, she called the next day screaming at me and accusing me of having a
"plethora" of women in the picture. This is funny cause I challenged the use
of the word plethora and reminded her that that particular word is preceded
on the previous page in the dictionary by "pleasure"!  Sort of got her on
the ropes right now.

My Comment:
I think there's a lesson here (the same one Ross talks about where if you
had 10 others would you still be hung up on the one you are hung up on) in
that a fresh, new recruit has gotten your mind off one that you were
obsessing over.

I agree with you about not making that same mistake again.  There's no
reason to get rid of any of them!  I was with my Dominican last night -- she
just came back from 3 weeks in the DR and Miami.  She's totally convinced I
have lots of other women and just wants to get some time from me (I was over
there from about 9:15 pm to midnight, a very efficient evening). Last night
I told the Dominican that maybe we shouldn't do this, I think my cock is too
hard and her pussy is too wet and it might be better to do it another time
(yeah, right!).  I've also got another one that I have been seeing and she
also thinks I am dating several other women.  I never deny it (usually just
smile and don't say anything) or I will make a joke out of it (when she asks
about the other women, I just tell her they don't like to talk too much,
they prefer to just have sex).  I am telling you, the less said the
better -- take a lesson from Russell Crowe in Gladiator; he doesn't say much
but the women fill in the blanks!  I just make a face with a smile that says
I am in control and I'll tell you what I want to tell you!  So far this has
been working extremely well.  This will hopefully lead to more comments
about  a topic I consider critically important -- the competitiveness of


>  I thought it was interesting that these mostly
>privileged, highly educated young women were so pissed off. Here, you have
>an elite group of supposedly intelligent women who could have the world at
>their feet and they're pissed off.

They are angry because:
1. They live in a culture that largely teaches them to be infants and
victims and then,quite contradictorily, demands they be "equal" to me
in power and responsibility
2. Their beauty was SUPPOSED to make them happy, goddamn it, but it
isn't working. It makes them POWERFUL but they are finding that is
NOT making them happy, just M-E-A-N.
3.  They are largely attracted to a-holes at that age and then,
invariably, pain results. So they are pissed off
>Because these women
>see how some men are so easily pussy whipped, they have contempt for all
>and thus use this power to tease and take advantage of men.

I agree and the more they do so, the more miserable these women
actually are.  "All things work according to their nature"...Aslan
the Lion
>  would SO not be surprised if I just got fucked by a team
>with a faggot-like wingmen!!! >=/

Got one word for you: LASIK.  Second best decision I ever made in my
life.  First was deciding to study NLP.

My Comment:  I also had the LASIK done and it is great.  Now I know some
people have had some complications (it all worked out, however) but I had a
perfect result. 20 seconds an eye and a lifetime (for me over 30 years) of
glasses came to an end.
>I ended up closing only 2 #'s last night but I chatted up at least 15. Yes
>FIFTEEN and 2 fucking numbers.  I don't know what's going on!  I mean intro
>was easy to establish but then I don't know why- I just feel like I am not
>gaining much interest from ANY of them.  It was shit.   I was not able to
>follow up with any routine.  Do I just not have enough "experience" or
>"knowledge" on hand to instantly use (i.e. switching to stuff that
>Or does this just happen occasionally (low conversion rate)?

Maybe they really don't go there to look for anyone. Maybe it is NOT
really a "meat market" and lots of them are there for other reasons
>I was tempted to blame my friend and hers for not respecting me, not giving
>me the chance to get to know them or them to know me and hang out with me
>when I needed the attention.  They were acting like 15 year olds at summer

They are entitled to. That is the part of the dynamic of a "club".
Women are ENTITLED to act like cunts.  Super Hot women are entitled
to act like SUPER CUNTS.   (Sorry to use the "c" word on your list,
Cliffy!) So they do.

My Comment:  S'arite. Some of 'em deserve the moniker...
>I know of lots of great seducers with sloppy cars.

When I got my Saab I didn't do it because I had any idea women would
like it. But I'm surprised at how many do. More importantly, I do my
best to keep it clean.  I have often heard women say as they get in,
"wow...this car is immaculate".

Unlike the condo which is clean enough, but can get sloppy.  Damn it,
so can the car OCCASIONALLY but I think no matter what your ride is,
you ought to keep it clean and don't store junk on the seats, ya
know? Your car is NOT an extra closet!

My Comment:  There were a rash of broad daylight robberies done here in
Montreal a couple years ago where crooks smashed windows of cars and grabbed
what was visible (mainly cellular phones) so I make it a point to just not
leave anything in my car anymore.  And certainly never anything visible.
>Strippers see so many guys and get the same lines thousands of times.  This
>causes an overload.

Part of my new flake theory: sensory overload response syndrome.
Their brains and bodies get SO overstimulated, everything just shuts
down. If you get them and CLOSE  as they are recovered and ready for
more fun, BOOM. If you meet them and between meeting them and
attempting to close, something else gives them a heavy stimulation
bout, then FORGET IT.
>I wanted to reply to Ross, I agree with everything you said, except this
>last point.  Strippers always remember me, even a couple of months later.
>Why?  Because I've affected them?  No.  Because I'm a mark.  She will
>remember him in two weeks, and she will try to "make it up to him", but
>because it means cash stuffed in her g-string.  If you don't close the
>night, you're a customer.

Well, I stand corrected. You CAN be remembered as a mark and a cash
source...if YOU want to.
>I've had 8 stripper GF's and my LTR current is one.  So is her sister.
>Your view of strippers is whacked.  Moody yes, but the others no.

Hee hee hee.  Maybe you are just so picky you didn't bang the drugged
out ones.
>  >UNLESS you go in near closing (say an hour before) and so with some
>  >bi-girl(s) for bait.
>Using girls as bait is good advice.  It doesn't have to be a bi thing
>per-se, just social proof.

Nonsense. If you are going home with BOTH girls then they better be
bi or open to it.  I assume you are going home with them THAT NIGHT.

My Comment:  I didn't read his comment that way -- I think he was saying
that going with a female whether she's bi or not gives you social proof and
as such serve as good bait.
>than 50% of them if I remember correctly.  I have healthy skepticism STILL
>... even if they SAY they are a doctor or a scientist.  After all, there IS
>such a thing as BAD SCIENCE.


> >>It's hard to get her attention in the club because when she goes on
> >>every guy rushes up to tip her and she never has a problem getting guys
to > >>buy dances. Two Saturdays ago I went up to her while she was onstage
> >>said, "What does a guy have to do to convince your wondrous self to come
> >>talk to him?"Don't EVER go into a club on a Saturday, Friday or
> >>Thursday night.
> >UNLESS you go in near closing (say an hour before) and so with some
> >bi-girl(s) for bait.
>Using girls as bait is good advice. It doesn't have to be a bi thing
>per-se, just social proof.

How else can you get their attention without tipping them or bringing in a
girl?  I'd seen this girl months before my post and tried psychic influence
several times to get her to come over but she never did.  So finally I
decided to tip her and compliment her.  I figured I didn't have anything to

My Comment:  I have seen and heard of a lot of different strategies used on
strippers.  A guy I know who happens to be very wealthy would go into a club
on, say a Tuesday.  He would pick the one he wanted and basically pay her to
dance and/or talk with him for about an hour.  They generally got to know
each other fairly well as he would come in every Tuesday after that for the
next 3-5 weeks and buy her time for an hour.  He basically doesn't do any SS
or anything, and really just treats them as a person with no effort to pick
them up or anything else. Then he would miss a week.  He would go the week
after and then she'd be after him, asking where he was and how she missed
him (ok, it could only be the money, but remember that he's not doing any
picking up strategies here).  He would then talk about how he had to travel
for business and that he may have to go somewhere resort-like such as
Cancun.  Inevitably they would comment about how they would like to go and
he plays a bit hard to get and from this (and I don't know the exact steps)
she would make herself clearly available and he'd usually take them to
dinner afterwards.  He's an average looking guy, dresses very down to earth
but clean, and is very polite.  And he's probably been with more of the
hottest strippers you've ever seen than anyone else on this list.
>>My plan now is to go back in about 2 weeks and read her Bishop's Warm
> >>Fuzzy. If anyone can give me any other input I would greatly appreciate
> >Dude, if she even remembers who you are in 2 weeks, I'll be shocked.
>Haaa, exactly. I bet in 2 weeks she'll call you HONEY. Just like ALL
>her customers.
> >TIMING is crucial. Usually with these girls, if you don't close them
> >THAT night, you can forget it. There are exceptions to every rule.
> >But 2 weeks is a lifetime to these women.
>Agreed! "One and done" it.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I seduced a stripper before.  I
never tipped her like this other one because she approached my table (as a
target) but I was able to capture her imagination before she could ask me
for a dance.  Still not sure how I did it though, but I didn't give her a
real kiss until a month after our first meeting, and I only saw her one
other time in-between that month.  I actually wrote the list about this last

Anyway was this just a fluke that I was able to get this girl without
closing her "the first night" or are there others on the list who have done
this?  I can't help but think what Ross says about when someone says
something can't be done, what they are really saying is they don't know how
to do it, and they don't know anyone else who knows how to do it, but
anything is possible.

My post was NOT me bragging about what a great job I did on this stripper.
I was asking for help because I really want to bang this chick, and yes,
hopefully have her as a GF.  I knew I had some work to do, and thought there
could be someone on here with enough experience with strippers to help me

My Comment:  Hopefully my last comment above will show you that there are
other ways.  Actually, as a general rule, I have been taking it pretty slow
with some of the women I have met recently and it seems to be working.  The
difference from the past when it didn't is that a) if it seems to be going
in the wrong direction, I tell them that I don't think they are really my
type but perhaps we can be friends and this is just throwing the gauntlet in
front of them or b) my own attitude and the way I talk to them is a lot more
male than I used to be and they just know that I am not another guy they can
wring around their little fingers.  I am not sure I can be too specific
about this as it is just the outward reflection of my thinking.  But if you
have specific questions, let me know.


>I can understand why men want to have sex with strippers but I don't
>understand why they would want them as steady girlfriends. My husband dated
>a stripper (this was before he met me) and she was the one who approached
>him..when she was working. And this wasn't the dumpy scummy skank-filled
>strip club at the edge of town. This was the O'Farrell Theater in San
>Francisco, so she was definitely top of the line, as far as dancers go. She
>was very pretty, had a great body, smart, sassy in her early twenties and
>course, pretty freaky. She was paying her way through school by dancing.
>Long story short: she lied to him, was seeing a drug dealer behind his
>he found out and dumped her. So much for being Captain Save-a-Ho.

So because ONE woman was lying who happened to be a stripper, this means ALL
strippers are liars too?  By this logic, shouldn't all WOMEN be liars as
well?  I think if you have particularly alpha male» characteristics, having
and keeping a stripper is easy.  They have hot bods, enjoy getting their
freak on, can be very loyal once they KNOW you are the best guy they've ever
met and make good coin.  Sure some may have some issues with low self esteem
that they work hard to hide with an overbloated 'pretend' ego, but other
than that and their 'living for today attitude', they are just like other
hotties who don't strip.  Hell, it's only a JOB afterall.  It's not the
stripper part of their profile that is as important to focus on as is the
HOTTIE part of her profile.
>I just got completely backfired last night when I was out with my
>friend and her friends to a club in her hometown.  All goes well in the pub
>we went before, but then we go to this club and it all screws up.  I was
>dancing with these girls (6,8,8) and building up a good rep.

Why are you trying to build a rep?  A reputation: isn't that a long term
thing?  Aren't you simply trying to convey your personality to these girls?
If so, you can't do that on the dance floor.  You need to SPEAK.  However,
you mean that you are pawning these girls, using them as social proof so
other girls in the club see you as a LADIES MAN, then that makes sense.
Just don't expect to actually LAND these girls.  And don't spend too much
time with them.  Dance for a few minutes and make sure other targets see and
then approach those targets.  Their bitch shields will be lowered
because they will have natural curiousity about your relationships with
those girls.
>Saw a new 2
>group (7's) so I got with them for a bit hoping to establish base but
>apparently they were only interested in getting down which I wasn't..

How many times must you do this til you learn that dance floor approaches
SUCK?  Talk to ALL the pro-PUA's.  Dude, I've been there.  I learned the
hard way - dance floors suck.  You don't get RESULTS.  Ask Craig.  Ask ANY
of the big boys that work clubs.

My Comment:  Not that I happen to be successful at the dance floor, but I
know others who are very successful using the dance floor.  Even GameMaster
not long ago posted about his tactics on the dance floor that seemed to work
really well.  I don't think the dance floor is for everybody (it's really
not for me, for one) but I know that, like everything else, there are other
ways of thinking
about this and there are guys who are successful and get results there.
>Returned to 3 group with my friend, but then they see more old friends
>(hometown uni vacation syndrome), etc.  I didn't think they were worthy,
>actually felt like they didn't even bother to speak with me (I have never
>been treated with such disrespect!)

Yep.  Typical.  Once friends come you are not invited to join because you
are JUST some GUY from the dance floor.  NO PERSONALITY.
Just a GUY.  You are wasting TOO MUCH TIME when you should be in a group
yakking it up.
>I moved to the dance floor (we were in a "cage" before getting down- it's
>cool, like one of those "Austin Powers" shagadelic ones =>), and after
>scouting I noticed this TEN SHB surrounded by 3 guys on the dance floor,
>was moving it like nothing else ever moves!

I've seen this too.  I would NOT approach her til she got OFF the dance
floor.  I would then approach a group NEAR her and use the conversation
there to INCLUDE the target in our conversation.  I would tap her and say,
"I'm curious ... do you think spells work?"  See, she thinks I'm part of a
group of people already so I appear SAFE.  There are girls in the group
laughing and smiling so I have social proof.  That's a FAR BETTER beginning
than starting to dance with her on the floor by yourself.
>Eyes all on her I just had to do it.

That's fair, I LOVE a challenge myself.  However, the challenge is GETTING
her successfully, not simply getting her in the worst situation possible.
With this logic, maybe you want to wear smelly clothes for a greater
>I planned and dived in for the approach.  I was able to move in
>easily because these 3 guys were undoubtedly AFC's or of less status.  She
>was also just all by herself.

When a hottie is alone, I become very cautious because the 1:1 could EASILY
change to a 2:1 or more when her FRIENDS come to take her away.
>All goes well, we chat, good body language», I
>step further in, establish body contact kino, start grinding with her and
>moving it and this dude suddenly taps me on the shoulder.   I turned
>looked at the girl and told her to wait for a sec, and then looked at him
>and asked "What."  He said, "Wow, man, I love those glasses!" (those of you
>who don't know I wear glasses, yeah, so what they look good on me! lol)
>First thought was he's a homo- but then I suddenly looked behind and
>some other guy chatting the SHB up.  This dude engages me in conversation
>for less than 20 seconds (I should have just pushed him aside but I heard
>lots of fights happen here I would prefer to avoid), then he turns around
>and WALKS AWAY.  I would SO not be surprised if I just got fucked by a team
>with a faggot-like wingmen!!! >=/

Yep, you got engaged by a wing.  He removed you from the target so his buddy
could engage her.  Good for them!  As for the gays, get used to the
fact that there are guys out there who like guys.   Power to them.  I like
lesbian and some guys think THAT is gross.  Everyone has a kink.  Let people
have their own kinks.  If a guy hits on me, I'm flattered.  He isn't going
to GET ANYWHERE but I wouldn't be offended.  By displaying anger you are
merely displaying small town imagery.  The "you haven't gotten out much'
phrase comes quickly to mind.  Travel into big cities and you'll notice gays
are here and aren't going away EVER.  You don't have to BE one but you can
ACCEPT their presence.  What do you care what a guy does?  I mean, to me,
guys are just obstacles to my target like ugly women are.  If those
obstacles like to fuck animals, I could care less.  The more you get out,
the more chances of meeting someone into that - don't bother getting
offended by their advances on your dog - they need to find targets too. : )
>I ended up closing only 2 #'s last night but I chatted up at least 15. Yes
>FIFTEEN and 2 fucking numbers.  I don't know what's going on!

The good news is, you are APPROACHING.  15 is good.  I did about 12 last
night and got 4 GOOD # closes.  No rejections ... except one where I KNEW it
was iffy.  She was alone.  I sat on a table near her and a bouncer came and
said I couldn't sit there.  So I sat on the edge of the chair and he said it
again.  So before I could continue from that shitty opening, a guy came and
she walked off.  It was a lousy thing and I just ejected.  See?  Shitty
situs can happen even to masters! haa.  Only 2 #s in 15 means you need
greater efficiency.
>I mean intro
>was easy to establish but then I don't know why- I just feel like I am not
>gaining much interest from ANY of them.  It was shit.   I was not able to
>follow up with any routine.

Could it be that you weren't in a really TALKATIVE mood?  I find unless I
have my MOUTH ON, I fail to grab their attention.
>Do I just not have enough "experience" or
>"knowledge" on hand to instantly use (i.e. switching to stuff that

Could be just a BAD DAY ... a glitch in the data, but I would suspect you
are not working the room correctly.  You see a girl and aren't using
groups to your advantage.  Try chatting up the obstacles more.  Or just talk
with some 7's.  Later you can use them as a base and chat them NEAR a target
and pawn the 7's off to get the target.  In other words, when you see a girl
on a dance floor, WAIT IT OUT.  You fucked it up cause you went in when you
KNEW you wouldn't be able to talk to her and lead her imagination.  You only
had your looks to go on and even if you are a hottie, I will STILL run
circles around my hot opponents.  AND ... don't be frightened to ACT gay to
men if it can get you IN with the woman ... alone in a 1:1 where you can
then tell her you are straight but it was fun to fuck with those losers.
Which is what I expect happened when the gay dude engaged you for his
buddy's benefit.
>Or does this just happen occasionally (low conversion rate)?
>I was tempted to blame my friend and hers for not respecting me, not giving
>me the chance to get to know them or them to know me and hang out with me
>when I needed the attention.  They were acting like 15 year olds at summer
>camp.  I just couldn't take it.

Remember, YOU are the man!  Don't let this small shit phase you.  If
something is bugging you, don't accept the shit.  People owe you NOTHING!
>But I know besides the state I was in -
>something else must've been out of the equation last night.  I don't know
>what.  To be fair, I'm still new to the club scene, but I like it with some
>exceptions like last night.

A nightclub is a HOLODECK.  Keep going because the experience gained will be
worth the effort, especially when one day you meet a SHB 11 and you get her
thanks to all your experience.  She is in your future.  PREPARE NOW!
>I would like to hear advice from PUA who are experts with clubs/pubs.  What
>do you think is going wrong?  I couldn't even sleep last night.
>I'm fine now but I just can't sort it all out yet.

Sounds like you were in a pissed mood.  LET GO OF YOUR OUTCOME.  I mean,
that was a fucking successful night.  Lots of learning, lots of approaches,
lots of interaction.  What do you expect?  Why are you going for the reward
of GIRLS when the reward should be EXPERIENCE?  Remember, SHB11 is coming
round the corner soon.  You aren't ready to get her yet.  Better practice
cause when you see her come, you have ONE CHANCE ... and you will need a
hell of a lot more GAME than you have now.  DUDE, she is WORTH IT!  This is
the girl that will make ALL US GUYS CRY!
> >ONE is to MENTALLY VISUALIZE and the other
> >is to FAMILIARIZE. Which honestly do members of this list
> >believe to bring the person closer to the desired outcome? Anyone?
>NO, you do BOTH. Visualize and THEN go do.

Fair enough.  I guess I don't have time to visualize anymore.  I'm busy with
the whole women wine and song thing now.
> >  >While I salute your courage in actively fighting your fear,
> >  >that's just ONE way to do it. And it's the hard way.
> >
> >Is it HARDER? I suppose ... AND it's grabbing the bull by the horns. Do
> >the guys want to seduce HOTTIES or piddle around HOPING AND DREAMING ALL
> >WEEK only to get out ONCE in a blue moon? While most are PREPARING to
> >the life, I'm out LIVING the LIFE.
>Either/or. Rehearse, THEN DO!
> >  >Now, I've personally cured LIFETIME phobias in under 10 minutes,
> >  >using NLP.
> >  >I think the word PHOBIA is a rather strong word for very normal
> >  >ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY. People get anxiety before certain situations.
> >They
> >can THINK ABOUT THIS for hours before or jump in. Its like >jumping into
> >cold pool. Some ease in slowly and complain for a long time >until they
> >in. Others just stand there looking and thinking about it. And >then
> >are the 3s rule guys ... just get in the fucking pool.
> >
> >  >I'm talking folks with total terror. Telling them to
> >  >just "get moving" doesn't cut it; this ain't about willpower.
> >
> >I suppose you HAVE to help those who are ARRESTED by ANTICIPATORY
> >It's your income. I don't. I'm up for what works BEST. And I believe it
> >about willpower.
>I don't agree.  It's about self-hypnosis. If a person has imagery of
>failing and nasty feelings attached, it's suggestion and trance. The
>imagination will always trump the will. So why not make them work

This 'getting into state' using hypnosis is to do this step by step journey
a million baby steps ... if the guy just gets his ass kicked every day for a
month, by the end of it, he will GET IT.  He will see the patterns.  That is
why a club is a holodeck.  Instead of all this visualization stuff only to
meet one girl at a cafe, he could go to a club and get 12 times more
experience in the same day.  What you do and what you teach is different.
Why?  Because you are teaching BASICS to AFC's, while you don't even have to
THINK about that shit when you go out cause you are WAY AHEAD of your
customers.  For me, the shit I teach is EXACTLY what I do because my method
is a model of ME.  It's not FOR AFC's.  If a guy has the guts to
approach already and enjoys getting his ass kicked in order to learn, he'll
explode in experience in a matter of weeks.  I had a friend who came to me
asking how to get girls.  Dude was 20 or so years old.  Never got laid
by getting 'massages' for $40.  So I took him on NEWBIE mission.  LIVE
EXPERIENCE.  We would walk a city street and THERE!  A girl, in the shop.
Go for it.  He'd go in, stand by her in the magazine store and use my
opener.  He would come out 5 minutes later and say, "I was such a geek."
This happened about 40 times until he GOT it.  It made SENSE to him.  He got
a BJ (and soon after a GF) in about 5 weeks.  And now I gather by the way I
saw him approach girls in a club the last time I saw him, he is doing rather
well.  Clubs are where EXPERIENCE comes from.  If I can find a target
outside of a club, let it be known, with my club experience, outside
approaches are fucking FISH IN A BARREL!
>>It seems you have an underlying belief about life: if it isn't hard,
>it isn't real.

No, that's not it: it's more like, life is short ... we live on 26,000 days
average.  Confidence comes with COMPETENCE.  COMPETENCE comes with
EXPERIENCE.  If you want to cheat this by having them feel confidence
through visualization and then approach girls outside only once in a while,
then you are cheating them of the EXPERIENCE needed for REAL COMPETANCE.  I
didn't even teach my friend about my routines until AFTER he learned how to
approach consistently with the 3 second rule.  If a guy is so chicken that
he can't jump in and bomb with a girl, then I don't even want to talk with
him.  This feeling of being unprepared will remain til a few newbie missions
have been played out.  It's TRAINING, not pretending.

Or, it's too good to be true means it usually is.

I see it a bit like military training.  you know how they go through TOUGH
TRAINING and by the end of their 8 week training they can handle ANYTHING.
They prepare for war.  Newbie missions are training missions that prepare
the guy for the PICKUP.  A guy will learn a hell of alot more by coming with
me for a month than by sitting in a chair listening to some guy's voice for
a month.

Anyone care to comment on this logic?

My Comment:  For me, I think there's no substitute for going out there and
doing it.  But I also know that you can learn from things you read, tapes
you listen to, seminars you attend, etc.  And being harsh with the
inexperienced may be effective in many circumstances but I don't think it is
always necessary.  I do think your perception of this is that it is a hard
path to follow and I also think there are ways to accomplish these goals
without as much struggle.  Part of that would be an attitude that
approaching to learn is fun, not a battle.
>Well, the only people who believe "it's too good to be true" are the
>ones who believe the only possibilities are those that are painful
>and hard.  Good luck with that, brother!

Not harder ... LIVE.  I suppose I must remove the word HARDER from this and
exchange it with HARDCORE ... or "grab the bull by the horns."  instead of,
IMAGINE ... I say DO IT!  Get the fuck out of the house and get ALOT of LIVE
EXPERIENCE under the belt in a short time.  THAT is what I mean.  This is
mainly semantics.
> >  There are those who FIGHT the fear and then there are the
> >cowards. While you HAVE to help them, I don't. I think they should just
> >home and masturbate until they die leaving no children. Natural selection
> >work.
>Well, that's compassionate of you. Cowards? No, just folks who
>haven't yet learned to control their imagery and associated feelings.

All solved with newbie training missions.
>That's a lack of skill as much as anything else.

I know, bro.  I'm just not appreciating what I had to go through a long time
ago when I started.  I just know that I can make an incompetent a competent
alot faster with training missions than with teaching them all the HOW TO
stuff right away.
> >  I teach that for those
> >willing to TRY, you will learn how to CONTROL yourself WHEN you
> >experience those emotions. They won't vanish. It doesn't happen.
>They don't vanish..for whom? It doesn't happen...for whom?

Fear ... ok, not FEAR ... anticipatory anxiety (AA) to be more exact (AKA
the AWARE state).  People will feel it with varying amounts of adrenaline.
This AA will not vanish ENTIRELY.  You want to trick the brain into feeling
less of it while I want to learn to deal with the worst of it so they can
all situations (just like a military basic training course - they don't
how to trick themselves into feeling in control, they learn how to control
themselves as they deal with the full anxiety.)  This AA does not disappear
100% ... if it DID, the person would fear NOTHING ... ever see the movie
>If they don't vanish for you, that is YOUR experience. That
>constitutes a boundary ONLY for you, not for others who may have
>better control tech at their disposal.

So you are saying that using hypnosis to trick the brain into NOT feeling AA
is more reasonable than training the person to deal with the worst of AA so
that they could handle ANY situation?  (Remember please that often I play
Devil's advocate to better get the other perspective - I'm not THIS BIASED
to one side you know that but I am for this argument).  As a man who has
performed hypnosis for several years myself, the problem I have with it is
that it is very difficult to translate the concepts into the language of
memetics.  The science of memetics makes a great deal of sense to me and
words like TRANCE are simply too WISHY WASHY.  What IS a trance?  How can
the definition of this word have an accurate context within the memetic
complex model?
>In fact, the fear can and DOES vanish if you have the tools.

Even the word TOOL is a metaphor for a MEME.  Certain MEMES can be utilized
to control certain emotions ... or maybe CONTROL is not accurate ... maybe
... PRODUCE is a better word.  I doubt very much that you have a single
customer where AA vanishes entirely WITHOUT vast experience.  I think I have
some pretty vast experience ... and I still get AA before certain situations
where I don't have full competence with.  I'm not the only one.  Ask ANY of
the Lounge members if the big boys have total confidence all the time.  Even
Craig, who can approach in clubs, feels AA at times.
>Stop knocking those who have tools
>you don't and resenting and even hating them when they use them.

This is a debate of two MEMES (metaphorically thought of as tools) that are
used to produce similar results (VISUALIZATIONS MEME vs. NEWBIE TRAINING
MISSIONS MEME).  We are judging them against EACH OTHER to see with of the
two puts the user of the tool closer to his target outcome.  The outcome is
control (or production) of certain emotions.  I admit both WORK.  That is
not in debate here.  WHICH is going to lead the user to a faster and more
efficient OUTCOME is.  It is also not a matter of using both for greater
effectiveness as a person who focuses on obtaining IRL experience needn't
waste time imagining experience.  The only time imagining experience is
helpful is when he can't find enough IRL situs to practice.  Of course, that
fits if they only approach a few girls in a day OUTSIDE clubs, at cafes and
such but if he works a club (holodeck metaphor) he will find a plethora of
opportunities to practice approaches and familiarize himself with both his
feelings AND the game in general.
>  >  You
> >can only learn to CONTROL your actions while in a fucked up state with
> >PRACTICE. LIVE PRACTICE. You don't learn to swim by reading about it.
>Yet, if you throw someone with a flaming phobia of water into the
>sea, they are more likely to drown than swim.  Fix the phobia, THEN
>teach them to swim.

Fair enough.  If someone is particularly encumbered with a mental disorder
like a phobia, than they will need to take a greater amount of baby steps.
Imagine if a guy in military basic training couldn't swim and was afraid of
the water though.  I think he could quickly learn to deal with it and become
competent ... if he wanted to complete the course bad enough.  Could be that
many AFC's don't want a girl BAD enough to overcome the fear of approaching.
If you don't WANT to have women enough to approach ... hell that's like not
wanting a diploma enough to bother attending school ... then just like the
guys in basic training, all they have to do is ring the bell three times and
they can leave.  I gather that if a person has the motivation to pay several
hundred bucks for your seminars/products, that they have the motivation to
participate in newbie missions and familiarize themselves with AA emotions
directly - these aren't people with PHOBIAS.  Make sure you don't CONVINCE
people that their AA IS a PHOBIA.  AA is NORMAL.  In fact, I have healthy
skepticism (though we could openly debate this) that PHOBIAS exist.  I mean,
what is the difference between AA and a phobia?  Is it not merely the amount
of adrenaline produced?  I know one can only have so much adrenaline in the
blood ... once you have the full blown amount ... some may semantically call
that a phobia, others may still call it AA ... or FEAR, or EXCITEMENT (like
bungee jumpers feel) or the aware state or whatever else they want to call
it.  They could HAVE a phobia ... they could have 100% adrenaline ... they
could have full blown AA ... but as long as they want the outcome bad enough
(i.e. getting laid, getting the diploma, finishing basic training, etc.)
they will become competent while enduring the feelings.

What did I learn from this debate so far?  Well, Mystery Method» (MM) is
about ACTION ... obtaining IN FIELD EXPERIENCE.  It's about doing what WORKS
... doing what it takes to get what you want.  Basic Training is something a
person learning MM must take before becoming a 'soldier of love'.  If a
person doesn't want to take basic training (formally NEWBIE MISSIONS) they
don't have to; they can ring the bell three times and go home.  If they have
a phobia, seek help for their mental disease ... how many phobics actually
became great pickup artists anyways?  Maybe they just aren't lonely enough.

I have a buddy (a wing) who doesn't really WANT GIRLS bad enough to endure
basic training.  That's his prerogative.  In order to become a PUA you have
to have the desire to want women at LEAST enough to endure basic training.
But isn't that the same for your students?  They have to want to succeed
enough to have women right?  And they are willing to pay money for advice on
how to do it.  But that's a little too easy ... just getting hypnotized
(like people who want to stop smoking - and we all know the TRUE statistics
on how few people actually quit from a hypnosis session - only the ones that
paid so much money for the sessions that they can't afford it NOT to work
will quit) is not going to solve the REAL issues.  When it's all said and
done, they
STILL have to approach lots of women ... just like the smokers STILL have to
WANT to QUIT enough ... and as you say, "why deny them of a pleasure."  This
is what I mean by "shit or get off the pot."  Either the student TAKES basic
training or NOT.  Listening to a hypnotist for a day or doing basic training
for a day ... which will give you more of a leg up?  Gentlemen ... YOU
> >You watch others and then jump in. Humans learn by IMITATION. Fake it
> >til you make it. FAKE being a PUA and over time as you become
> >competent you will BECOME a PUA. You can't fake being a PUA without
> >practicing the role. Shit or get off the pot.
>Either/or mentality. Alcoholics in the family by any chance?
>Black/white thinking is a typical alcoholic family pattern.

Nope.  Observational bias.  Only those who live in a black/white situ SPEAK
of the situ and therefore spread the story.  Stories of parents being
alcoholics and the son being a normal moderate drinker simply isn't talked
about and the meme does not spread.  The story originates from the son
usually.  So if he is a non-drinker, he will give the reason for his choice
as being that his parent was one.  Same for if the son is an alcoholic.
But if he is a moderate drinker only, there is nothing to blame for his
behavior either way and therefore the story does not get spread.  You know
and understand memetics and how they spread - why would you bother
neglecting such stuff in your logic?
> >Anyone who needs to PREPARE just to head out are NOT GETTING OUT
> >ENOUGH! And hell, I don't wanna hang out with losers like that. "I'm
> >too SCARED to talk to her!" You know what I say? "I'm JUST as scared
> >... but I'm going to fuck her while you masturbate alone. Bye."
>Who said anything about scared?  Even the best performers pump up
>before the mirror before they hit the footlights. Same thing.

Lets change the word SCARED (or fear, or aware state) to the words
ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY.  Many people feel EXCITED to go out.  Excitement is
AA, too, after all.  And, yes, AA happens before going on stage too.
> >Very good. This is fitting for my debate with Ross. Ross has to
> >convince cowards they are heroes.
>I don't think in terms of such stupid labels. "Cowards" and "heroes".

If a person WANTS to get girls but is not willing to do BASIC TRAINING and
instead opts for the EASY ROUTE of getting hypnotized (which is no
replacement for experience) then he's a COWARD.  Definition: one who shows
disgraceful fear or timidity.  Sounds like a fitting word to me.
>This isn't fighting or war; it's approaching women.

The war metaphor is used from time to time (targets, approach) as we use
baseball (striking out, home run).  It isn't war NOR baseball ... but at
times it can be viewed LIKE war or baseball.  I enjoy the war metaphor
(actually I use the war GAMES metaphor) because it puts DRIVE into success.
But that's just me. : )
>about state control and that is about mental rehearsal and THEN going
>out and acting.

There's no TIME for mental rehearsal when you are in basic training.  You
are too busy approaching REAL WOMEN.
>Well, maybe fighting is and war too, but NOT this activity.  The
>fear in this activity is largely IMAGINARY so use of the same
>processes to instill a good, calm, excited, aware and up state BEFORE
>and during action is perfectly fine.

AA is NOT imaginary.  It's real and far too many people have it to say that
it's an aberration of only a few people.  Most people have it - it's been
INTO our emotional circuitry thanks to evolution.  It's there for a reason.
Lets USE it rather than attempt to MINIMIZE its impact on our behaviors.  I
am not one to sweep the REAL feelings of AA under some rug.  They are real
and we can get greater control of our behaviors if we learn to work WITH AA
instead of tricking our minds to make AA go away.
> >  I don't. So if I say fight the fear
> >and act anyways, I'm saying this from a HERO's point of view
>Hero? Or someone who is making it harder than it needs to be because
>you lack the tools?

Is it HARDER to understand something (like how to get girls) by getting
direct experience or by pussyfooting around the subject by trying to find an
easy way out of experiencing?  I think that skirting the issue of getting
the experience directly is going to make the desired outcome a lot HARDER to
get quite frankly.  (I'm enjoying this debate : ))

My Comment:  I think that there is some misinformation here.  Ross is
constantly telling his students that if they don't go out there and use the
tools he gives them, there's nothing he can do about that.  He is just as
passionate about having his students take action as you are.
> >Cowards
> >will always say "it's easier said than done." Sure it's easier said, but
> >the one saying it is also the one who DOES IT.
>No, but if you can find an easier way to assist you in doing it and
>you DO it, then I say "GREAT".

The desired outcome isn't to FEEL CONFIDENT.  That is only a means to an
end.  The desired outcome is to have the competence and experience to pick
up girls in a variety of situations.  This hypnosis 'tool' is a superfluous
step when the same feelings of confidence will come with the competence
gained from experience.  Basic Training wins out.
> >Shit or get off the pot,
> >gentlemen. If you can't face your fear, since the feeling will NOT go
> >away, you might as well fuck off entirely.
>The feeling doesn't go away for you. That is YOUR limit. Come see me
>and I promise to cure the fear, FOREVER.

AA feelings (no matter how much adrenaline is released) are HARDWIRED into
human brains (it's there like fear of heights ... everyone fears heights for
good reason but those with familiarity and experience learn to accept the
feeling and can still function ... some label the very same feeling as
excitement ... but it's still AA).
> >There are two ways to obtain knowledge. Close your eyes and dream or
> >open your eyes and systematically explore reality.
>Nonsense again  and pure ignorance. Close your eyes, dream and then
>go into reality and TEST your dream.

You have to learn the laws of physics before you can have an accurate model
of physics in your dreams.  If a person does not familiarize himself with
the complex nature of social interaction FIRST, then anything he imagines is
utter mental masturbation and fantasy.  There is no need for the dreaming
step.  Test your dream?  How about go out (without the need for fantasy and
dreaming), approach and fuck up (crash and learn) and THEN figure out what
you COULD do to get a better response the next time and then test THAT?
This is like learning to ride a tricycle.  You don't HYPNOTIZE a kid to
'dream' about bike riding.  You get him on the fucking tricycle in real life
(TRAINING) and let him fall a few times.  He'll get the hang of it (the
competence) as well as the accompanying CONFIDENCE with experience.
>What is with your either/or
>intolerant, pain-centered cave-man thinking? Shockingly ignorant.

Logic is quite SHOCKING to some I suppose.  In the long run ... people
STILL NEED to approach women to get the needed experience.  Do BASIC
TRAINING (in the field training) and THEN learn how to get BETTER RESULTS
with MM and SS and all the other 'ways'.  People won't UNDERSTAND how the
ideas we discuss make sense in the field
until they've VISITED the field.  And what IS this EITHER/OR thing?  Either
they get EXPERIENCE or they don't.  If they don't, if instead they DREAM,
what does this get them?  NOTHING.  Either they GET WOMEN (thanks to their
experience) or they DON'T.  So YES!  I believe in EITHER/OR.
>I'm not "denying" anything. I'm simply saying the SS list is about
>SS.  If we open it to peripheral things like general NLP
>discussions, cologne choices, dressing right, etc. there will be no
>end of chatter about things that don't concern SS.

Why not limit to HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS?  Isn't that the POINT of SS?

My Comment:  No, the SS list is about the SS technology -- if you pick up a
girl because she just liked the way you looked or smelled, this wasn't
something that you benefited from because you used what Ross has taught you.
>Don't take YOUR limits and apply them to everyone.

My UNDERSTANDING on what works BETTER (results oriented approach) is
enthusiastically shared with those who have not yet learned that there are
TOOLS being discussed that are not as PRODUCTIVE.  Imagine LIMITING people
to learning only what WORKS so they don't waste their time.  Limiting
oneself to what works better is often admirable.

My Comment:  Ross's products, patterns, strategies, etc. are always 'field
tested' and his entire focus is on things that work.
>The bottom line
>is, you want it so you will do what it takes to get it.

That's results oriented ... so long as people aren't hurt, isn't that fair?
Just like ... I am willing to do BASIC TRAINING to get the experience
necessary to get what I want, namely the competence to pickup a hot babe.
>My Comment:  This is an example of one of the situations where the
>collective knowledge of handling women that I know is on the subscriber
>of these emails.  For example, one of my best friends (who gets these but
>has never commented on any of them) is someone who had at least 5
>girlfriends simultaneously for 10 years when he was single.  They all knew
>he had other women (he usually saw each one night a week) and, in fact, the
>woman he married was in his stable for 4 years before he married her.
>are ways to maintain your integrity and have what you want.

I would have LIKED this but I am confused about what I actually want.  I met
my LTR before I KNEW I had a great interest in polyamory.  So I love her and
want to keep her but would enjoy it if she let me fuck around.  She would
not do that so my choice is, MOVE ON or COMPROMISE.  Since I am emotionally
pair bonded strongly to her (I think they call such an emotion ... LOVE?) I
am between following my emotions and following my intellectual ideals.  For
instance, I broke up with my GF2 (whom I could have a 3some with) because I
want to move in with my GF1.  So if my behavior dictates what I WANT, it
looks like my emotions are winning.  It's not IDEAL but I DO enjoy the
emotions.  If any of you have seen pix of her in my lounge, you know that
she is beautiful.  The only thing missing is the bi thing.  Oh well ... poor
me.  If things don't work out with her in the long run, my NEXT LTR will
probably be bi.  No hurry.
>I would point
>to my role model Hugh Hefner (gotta send him an invite to subscribe) but
>guys always discount him claiming he's got the money working for him (but I
>say, there are plenty of wealthy guys out there, none of whom that I know
>besides him who have been able to have multiple, long term simultaneous
>girlfriends like he has.  I think managing several women over a long term
>he recently separated from a group of 4 that he was seeing for 2 years,
>to replace them now with a group of 7 -- takes more than money; he's
>a master at managing this kind of a situation).

Yeah, that's sweet.  It's not being RICH, just having enough money to create
this situation - a place to fuck, share things to do with them, etc.  Money
is too tight for me still ... which is why coincidentally I'm focusing in on
ONE girl so I can live with her and work on my career/money situation.
Imagine if I took the energy I have for the PUA and focused it on my career?
I'd be a multi-millionaire!!!!!
>And there are also the
>Mormons to look at (I saw a television special about some of these
>polygamous families, and the women were attractive, highly educated and
>intelligent -- some were doctors and lawyers, for example -- who preferred
>sharing one man with sometimes 20 or more other women).  There is more to
>this issue than having to lie to get what you want.

I agree FULLY.  If I were better off in other areas of my life (which I have
decided to focus on and not so much on the PUA) I would consider this.
Seeing as I can't even THINK of this now, I would be happy with what I have
and focus on the more important issues at hand (MONEY, MONEY, fucking
MONEY!).  If I broke up with my LTR, I STILL wouldn't have the circle of
influence to build a triad successfully and sustain it right now.  So I'm
very happy with what I have.  It's about dealing with what your current
situation allows.  Maybe in the future if things go well I can build a more
ideal situation but right now I won't look a gifthorse in the mouth: my GF
is beautiful, my best
friend and honestly is the best sex I've EVER had.  EVER.
>so I try and focus
>on the parts we can get along about and what I can learn or enjoy with
>someone.  Hey, if I had to agree with everything a woman says I would be
>spending all my time with Rosy Palmer.  That doesn't mean I have to lie to
>them or always forcefully point out where we differ -- you have to get
>with people and I don't believe that not necessarily saying something is a
>compromise to your integrity (that is situation specific, of course).

I understand this.  I suppose I should preface my statement by saying you
shouldn't argue against her strong convictions when you first meet her.  The
PU is typically 25 minutes long.  You need to create a feeling (a sense) of
connection before you close so to create rifts like disagreements to her
convictions is to shoot yourself in the foot.


>Something I have to say about dancers is this: they ARE pretty honest.
>They reveal their true selves TOO MUCH, IMO.  They SHOULD be creating a
>character that is attractive to the men ... but they just don't care
>enough to do that.  They will talk about their real life issues.  Not
>particularly attractive (like the girl revealing her alkie-mama) but

I have to agree with this, they are TOO REVEALING. But that doesn't seem
to bother me. I met this girl Sanja four days ago (she is a 7) and tonight
pretty wild ; )
I got some good points in bed, it seems we fit very well together.  The
truth is that I have some doubts about this relationship. I never had a girl
like this. We both know that this is nothing serious, how could it be, she
must "do" 5 customers a night. Anyway I just wanted to know, did some of you
guys had a relationship like this ? I am really pondering my head about this
(sex, what she "really" wants, health, bad rep.  .......)

My Comment:  It seems you are the one who is a little confused here -- if
you both know that this is nothing serious, the rest of your questions are
answered. Couldn't she just want some fun without any strings?


Primoman, responding to Ross' comments:
>The feeling doesn't go away for you. That is YOUR limit. Come see me
>and I promise to cure the fear, FOREVER. I am sure you have the courage
>to learn a better way to mentally manage your state.

I can't agree with this. I know people who have gone to seminars of Major
Mark, and Richard Bandler and they still feel the fear (or excitement is a
better word). I even know people who went to your seminars and they still
have the fear.

Why don't you explain how people TOTALLY get rid of their fear instead of
being vague?  I have a friend who has just about every single one of your
products and he still has a lot of fear of approaching women. Are you
supposed to MENTALLY REHEARSE how you want it to go every day for a month,
and that will destroy your fear entirely?

People who approach women over and over again, do eventually desensitize
themselves and almost totally destroy their fears, and at the same time, get
experience with REALITY instead of living in their false reality in their
heads, which would get disproven in the real world anyway.

My Comment:  Ross can't make someone take action if they won't.  There are a
lot of guys I have met at his seminars who may memorize the materials but
who can't bring themselves to actually go up and talk to a woman.  I think
Ross gives you the 'weapons' (tools), but you still need to go into battle
to use them.  And like anything else, unless you practice you won't get good
at it.  I think, however, for someone with Mystery's experience, Ross would
be able to make a significant difference for him right away.  For others, in
my opinion it will be a process that takes time and effort.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



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Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

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Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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