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"When they are in that zombie state"

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When they are in that zombie state
4/10/01 4:49:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time


>They are angry because:
>1. They live in a culture that largely teaches them to be infants and
>victims and then,quite contradictorily, demands they be "equal" to me
>in power and responsibility
>2. Their beauty was SUPPOSED to make them happy, goddamn it, but it
>isn't working. It makes them POWERFUL but they are finding that is
>NOT making them happy, just M-E-A-N.
>3.  They are largely attracted to a-holes at that age and then,
>invariably, pain results. So they are pissed off

This runs right along the lines of what I've come to describe as
"Toronto's Plague".  Some may disagree with me, but the chicks, and people
in general, of Toronto, are far meaner than friendly.  I've been to a
variety of places, seen about 25 states, lived in California, and Toronto
is the unfriendliest city I've ever known.  And the problem is, one a-hole
plants a seed in the mind of a chick, and she then paints every guy she
meets after that with the same brush and treats them as if they were all
a-holes, as some kind of revenge.  And of course, the guys get the bitch
treatment and in turn, start painting all the chicks with the same brush
too and retaliate by treating perfectly normal, happy chicks like shit.  I
can't say I'm a part of this sad cycle, or if it even exists, but I think
it's a good a theory as any.

Sad part is, now when I find chicks, online or otherwise, I EXPECT them to
be bitches, just as a matter of experience.  So I guess I'm still waiting
to be surprised when some Angel comes along.

Remember the hottie that broke the webpersonals record?  Well that blew up
when I tried a little qualifying ball-busting in an online chat, and
before I could even type the next line to add the critical humor to the
comment, she bolted.  When I called to ask what kind of wine to bring to
the dinner date she proposed earlier, she said she couldn't talk and would
call me back.  Never did, so not only did the date not happen but she
didn't even have the courtesy to tell me it was off...

Well, that was a few weeks ago, and in the mean time I ended my
online/phone antics with this east-coast girl because she could not meet
with me any time soon, and I can't fuck her unless I get a 2,100 km penis

I thought for sure that all hope was lost with my WP hottie, but I decided
anyway to email her back, with some of Sisonpyh's magic to go with it.  I
threw in the "I know that most men fall for this 'I'm beautiful and aloof
and I get my way' part of your personality... but I know something that
none of them know...  You may act tough, but you're actually extremely
sensitive on the inside, etc., etc." along with some non-supplicating
SS-laced stuff that I constructed carefully, including a comment about me
buying her wool socks for her cold feet.

To my astonishment this morning, here is her reply:
>Hello, good morning, I must say I have to apologize.  I didn't mean to be
>so insensitive.  Please accept my apology and thank you for your e-mail.
>I didn't get cold feet - it was a little more complicated than that.  It
>actually had nothing to do with you.  I'm just going through a learning
>period right now.  I will tell you about it some time.  If you would like
>we can keep chatting.
>Again, thank you for being kind.

Booyah!  To be honest I didn't expect a reply at all, let alone one like
this.  So, at the risk of botching this, I'd like some input on the best
way to proceed here.  I have a pretty good idea, but I think this is one
worthy of the list's interest.


In reply to Mys:
>Why are you trying to build a rep?  A reputation: isn't that a long term
>thing?  Aren't you simply trying to convey your personality to these girls?

Mys - I just realized how confusing my story was.  Basically, these 3 girls
I was talking about (6,8,8) were my friend and her 2 girl friends. I have
tried to use them since the beginning as pawns for social proof  (these
girls were hot but as I've always said, I always lose interest in my girl
friends) so we're on the same wavelength.

I have no problems going up and talking to girls, even though like most of
you, when it comes to a 10 SHB I still get nervous and fear that people are
WATCHING and if I get booted they will LAUGH.  If I overcome this (e.g. if I
know everyone else doesn't give a shit and aren't looking at me) I can do
it.  I think this stems from the fact that I am at university and that I
know quite a few people.
>How many times must you do this till you learn that dance floor approaches
SUCK?  Talk to ALL the pro-PUA's.  Dude, I've been there.  I learned the
hard way - dance floors suck.  You don't get RESULTS.  Ask Craig.  Ask ANY
of the big boys that work clubs.
>My Comment:  Not that I happen to be successful at the dance floor, but I
>know others who are very successful using the dance floor.  Even GameMaster
>not long ago posted about his tactics on the dance floor that seemed to
>really well.  I don't think the dance floor is for everybody (it's really
>not for me, for one) but I know that, like everything else, there are other
>ways of thinking
>about this and there are guys who are successful and get results there.

I think the only difference on the dance floor is that it's ALL BODY
LANGUAGE».  You can chat girls up at the bar, around the entire "holodeck" as
Mys would put it and the only place that you can't do so (speaking to them
in a seductive way!) is on the dance floor.  However, as I've said I'm
considered decent looking and I really do enjoy dancing.  I do end up
getting down with girls, but I'm now moving away from this dance floor
approach as most girls there either group up, and unless you have a good
base it's hard to work out.
>Yep.  Typical.  Once friends come you are not invited to join because you
>are JUST some GUY from the dance floor.  NO PERSONALITY.
>Just a GUY.  You are wasting TOO MUCH TIME when you should be in a >group
yakking it up.

Ok, that's why I was saying I write like shit! I have confused you again.
Sorry I usually don't think before I write, and just write it out and don't
check what I'm saying!  What I really meant was that my friend's friends
didn't really bother talking to me, and that's why it pissed me off because
they weren't giving me the social proof I needed. And I normally don't get
treated this way.  Now that it's been a while since this whole thing and I'm
never going to stay with her again (not the best host I've had in my life),
I can dismiss that as just a shit night out - ineffective as I only closed
with 2#'s but I think it's just a bad night!  I'm going out tonight anyways
for another shot.
>I've seen this too.  I would NOT approach her till she got OFF the dance
>floor.  I would then approach a group NEAR her and use the conversation
>there to INCLUDE the target in our conversation.  I would tap her and say,
>"I'm curious ... do you think spells work?"  See, she thinks I'm part of a
>group of people already so I appear SAFE.  There are girls in the group
>laughing and smiling so I have social proof.  That's a FAR BETTER beginning
>than starting to dance with her on the floor by yourself.

Mys, the only question I would have here is when you say you approach a
group near her, do you KNOW this group before? Do you also usually go to the
same club(s) all the time, and just know a lot of people? Or do you just go
up to a group nearby and chat with them?  Here's the thing, I am curious how
you do that, I understand it's a lot easier to speak with guys (unless they
think you're a homo which unless they are too leaves you alone again!) and I
know it's what you do first to disarm obstacles, etc. but WHAT do you SAY
to the GUYS to start with?  I think I usually get INTRODUCED to groups, and
there has only been one exception (which I'll get to) where I met an entire
group (you probably feel the same everytime you do it Mys but it's such an
AWESOME feeling!)
>That's fair, I LOVE a challenge myself.  However, the challenge is GETTING
>her successfully, not simply getting her in the worst situation possible.
>With this logic, maybe you want to wear smelly clothes for a greater

The only reason I went up to her was despite the 3 guys trying to impress
her, I was moving it in my own little space and she was checking me out and
we had eye contact.  That's why I moved in.
>When a hottie is alone, I become very cautious because the 1:1 could EASILY
>change to a 2:1 or more when her FRIENDS come to take her away.

I know that's one of many reasons (especially the fact that you can't
talk!) why you hate dance floors, but I've also had my many shit times on
dance floors.  Some girls just DON'T want to dance with guys no matter how
hot they think you are.  It's fucked up.  There's this girl that I was
chatting up in the corner of the dance floor.  She was GORGEOUS and the
funny thing is she's shy but her friends seemed very easy with my approach
and didn't pull her away or anything (in fact they pushed her against me).
She just wouldn't dance with me, but when I asked her to join me for
conversation, she did.  *Closed within 5 minutes (well, wasn't really a
close, went on for the next hour or so, lots of grabbing and THEN she was
willing to move that body...).
>The more you get out,
>the more chances of meeting someone into that - don't bother getting
>offended by their advances on your dog - they need to find targets too. : )

This guy wasn't gay, now that I come to think of it.  he was putting on an
act as a wingman.  Sorry if that was confusing too! I'm gonna have to start
reading what I write.  You'd think not many people would know PU strategies
in a random town in England.  But guess what!#$
>The good news is, you are APPROACHING.  15 is good.  I did about 12 last
>night and got 4 GOOD # closes.  No rejections ... except one where I KNEW
>was iffy.  She was alone.  I sat on a table near her and a bouncer came and
>said I couldn't sit there.  So I sat on the edge of the chair and he said
>again.  So before I could continue from that shitty opening, a guy came and
>she walked off.  It was a lousy thing and I just ejected.  See?  Shitty
>situs can happen even to masters! haa.  Only 2 #s in 15 means you need
>greater efficiency.

TONIGHT, MYS!! TONIGHT!!!! I'm SO fucking ready for this.  I am absolutely
pumped up, and I even have a 9 HB who's accompanying on my little trip to
PAAAAAWWWN. Hawhaw.  She actually knows what I'm up to and she's going to be
WATCHING which helps me personally. Only thing is I'll be seeing the evil
sisters out later, methinks ... one of them is really getting me!!! Shit,
it's 9 pm here, gotta grab some food and get ready.  Also have so much work
piling up... it's getting me. Hey, what's a good way to turn a friend that
you "connect" well with into an aggressive sexual partner?  THAT I want to
know.  I'm looking for advice all over fastseduction and pickupguide and
only thing I've found were about 10 lines that Maniac High was talking
about.  I need a good routine.  I can learn patterns quickly but I need to
be exposed to them first, and so far I've already used some over the phone
but I need good ones with this evil sister.  I know kino works well but I
also need to talk.  If someone can give me a good outline (that's really all
I need, I can figure the rest out) but an outline that includes moves, etc.
>Could it be that you weren't in a really TALKATIVE mood?  I find unless I
>have my MOUTH ON, I fail to grab their attention.

What I found interesting is that sometimes I TALK TOO MUCH! LOL but I do.
The 10 HB friend I was telling about earlier who basically said she'd like
to have sex with me if she didn't had a bf said even though I look good, in
the category of female "eye candy" at first sight, one of my buddies
actually would be RATED BETTER because of his PERSONALITY!! I am friendly
and very popular (see, how modest am I!) but my normal personality doesn't
get HOT girls INSTANTLY.  I am still working at building an ACT that works.
Don't want to get too superficial, but I think I need work on this and I'm
glad I've found out.  I've had many times when I was blaming myself on looks
("I don't look good enough", "I need to look better," etc.) when I can be
working on personality and become an absolute charmer.
>Could be just a BAD DAY ... a glitch in the data, but I would suspect you
>are not working the room correctly.  You see a girl and aren't using
>groups to your advantage.  Try chatting up the obstacles more.  Or just
>talk with some 7's.  Later you can use them as a base and chat them NEAR a
>target and pawn the 7's off to get the target.  In other words, when you
see a
>girl on a dance floor, WAIT IT OUT.  You fucked it up cause you went in
>when you KNEW you wouldn't be able to talk to her and lead her
>imagination.  You only had your looks to go on and even if you are a
hottie, I >will STILL run circles around my hot opponents.  AND ... don't be
frightened >to ACT gay to men if it can get you IN with the woman ... alone
in a 1:1 where you can
>then tell her you are straight but it was fun to fuck with those losers.
>Which is what I expect happened when the gay dude engaged you for his
>buddy's benefit.

There was this time it worked when I took a 7 back.  She was still great in
bed (very horny girl), not the best I've had look wise (she was pretty but
had freckles and skinny) but fine. Anyway the thing is what turned out to be
obstacles (her 5 guy friends and girl friends) actually chatted me up first
because one of them accidentally spilled a little bit of drink on me.  I was
at this club in a random city all by myself and they did the work for me -
introducing themselves to me.  I think it's so much easier if you're in a
different city from your home town speaking to random people and people want
to get to know you.  When I'm here in my "home town" (university town), I
end up just hanging about with my friends, meeting their friends, talking to
them and using them as pawns.  I wouldn't walk up to a random guy and chat
him up.  People don't BOTHER to meet you unless as Ross mentioned you're in
a meat market which does exist but it's based ENTIRELY on PHYSICAL LOOKS
(since it consists mainly of a dance floor!).  However, I am sure this is
EXACTLY what I need to learn to do.  What do I say though?  This is funny, I
can't believe I'm asking how to speak with a guy.

When you say "pawn the 7's off to get the target", how do you do that
exactly? Do you mean getting "rid" of them, or do you introduce her into the
group?  Sorry, Mys, I'm sure you have it somewhere in your 1000+ page
archive which I'm still trying to get through slowly (I'm still only around
page 100! lol).
>hell of a lot more GAME than you have now.  DUDE, she is WORTH IT!  >This
is the girl that will make ALL US GUYS CRY!

Dude, unless I send her over to ride ya'll. Lol
>Fair enough.  I guess I don't have time to visualize anymore.  I'm busy
>with the whole women wine and song thing now.


Last thing I'm gonna say is regarding METHODS.
I am finding a combination of AM (advanced macking), SS and MM to be rather
effective IF used right..  I have also read so many posts about how people
say "My method is better" or "Your method doesn't work".  So far in what
I've learned is that NO METHOD IS PERFECT.  You need to READ, LEARN, and,
most importantly, GO OUT AND PICK UP GIRLS! But in the process, find out
what's wrong and fix it.  I would love to find a PERFECT SYSTEM but there
really isn't one especially when you are dealing with something SO dynamic
(women) lol.  But I have been recently combining little bits here and there,
and found it to work pretty well and it also depends on the situation you're


>>I can understand why men want to have sex with strippers but I don't
>>understand why they would want them as steady girlfriends. My husband
>>a stripper (this was before he met me) and she was the one who approached
>>him..when she was working. And this wasn't the dumpy scummy skank-filled
>>strip club at the edge of town. This was the O'Farrell Theater in San
>>Francisco, so she was definitely top of the line, as far as dancers go.
>>was very pretty, had a great body, smart, sassy in her early twenties and
>>course, pretty freaky. She was paying her way through school by dancing.
>>Long story short: she lied to him, was seeing a drug dealer behind his
>>he found out and dumped her. So much for being Captain Save-a-Ho.
>So because ONE woman was lying who happened to be a stripper, this means
>strippers are liars too?  By this logic, shouldn't all WOMEN be liars as
>well?  I think if you have particularly alpha male» characteristics, having
>and keeping a stripper is easy.  They have hot bods, enjoy getting their
>freak on, can be very loyal once they KNOW you are the best guy they've
>met and make good coin.  Sure some may have some issues with low self
>that they work hard to hide with an over bloated 'pretend' ego, but other
>than that and their 'living for today attitude', they are just like other
>hotties who don't strip.  Hell, it's only a JOB after all.  It's not the
>stripper part of their profile that is as important to focus on as is the
>HOTTIE part of her profile.

Dude, I was using it as an example. For most strippers you could never be
the best guy she's ever met because, from her experience, there is no such
thing as a best guy. She thinks that men, especially the ones who come to
the club, are chumps. So you have to show her you ain't another chump, which
I guess is where the whole "alpha male»" thing comes in. Could you give us
your definition of the term "alpha male»"? I have an idea of what that means
in the world of canines. I am assuming that it means a man with some sort of
status--physique, looks, money, political/social power, huge penis--in the
eyes of the stripper (and perhaps other men who want this stripper). But I'd
like to get your particular definition, Mystery, as it relates to picking up
chicks, specifically strippers. My husband, during the beginning of his
relationship with this stripper did show her he was the best guy she'd ever
met (at the club) and that's why she approached and pursued him. But it
didn't last long and she started seeing him as another chump and hence the
lies, the drug dealer, etc.
BTW, part of the story I forgot to mention was that a year after he dumped
her, he ran into her at a bar and he went home with her and did her every
which way. She wanted to get back together again. He said no and left.
Didn't want to make the same mistake twice.

But during the time he was with her, he got to know a lot of her co-workers
at the strip club. Although there were a few women who outside of stripping,
led relatively conventional  lives with a husband or steady boyfriend, an
overwhelming number of them had drug problems, psychological issues, and
just a lot of baggage. I assume that "sexually abused," "cocaine abuse" and
"bipolar disorder" are not parts of the hottie profile, but like you said it
isn't the job so much as the person, and unfortunately, there are a few of
these people who end up stripping. And I think Ross said something about how
many of them need a lot of stimulus and if you're not Mr. Excitement, then
forget about it.

Also, it's still sex-related work, though not quite prostitution per se. And
unfortunately, many people lump pros and strippers together. And because of
this I would have to disagree with the statement that it's "only a job"
because it's not a regular type of job. In some contexts, she won't be able
to proudly tell people what she does for a living. Some strippers don't come
to terms with the fact that most people don't find stripping respectable
work, which is probably not good for people with low self-esteem to begin
with. And when the regulars see a stripper outside of  the strip club, like
at a restaurant or party, the situation can get a little uncomfortable with
some guys thinking she's still on the clock.

So as far as SS is concerned, I guess banging and bagging a stripper is
quite a feat, given all the obstacles. So is it just the challenge of
getting this elusive game or what? Is it a status thing among other guys to
be able to get a stripper? Are strippers easier to seduce than non-stripping
HB's? Is it really worth the trouble to focus your SS efforts on this small
segment of the female population? Just curious.


Jr. Harris:
I've been reading these articles in your posts and it seems like they are
all almost completely about clubs and strippers and dancing.  Now that's
great but I don't come across strippers much and clubs are in St. Louis...
not an hour south of it here where I am.  How about some info on doing
Wal-Mart PU's and grocery stores... coffee shops like in Barnes and Noble..


> >I ended up closing only 2 #'s last night but I chatted up at least 15.
> >FIFTEEN and 2 fucking numbers.  I don't know what's going on!  I mean
> >was easy to establish but then I don't know why- I just feel like I am
> >gaining much interest from ANY of them.  It was shit.   I was not able to
> >follow up with any routine.  Do I just not have enough "experience" or
> >"knowledge" on hand to instantly use (i.e. switching to stuff that
> >Or does this just happen occasionally (low conversion rate)?
>Maybe they really don't go there to look for anyone. Maybe it is NOT
>really a "meat market" and lots of them are there for other reasons

I believe that the PU is the exception to the rule.  Girls don't go to the
grocery store to PU a guy but we can still manage it.  It is unlikely a girl
goes to the coffee shop to meet a guy.  But we manage it.  A girl doesn't
have to be AWARE that she is seeking a man for me to get her.  Even at a
club you can create a sense of CHANCE MEETING with her.  The last club I was
at was NOT a meat market - though I did great!
> >I was tempted to blame my friend and hers for not respecting me, not
> >me the chance to get to know them or them to know me and hang out with me
> >when I needed the attention.  They were acting like 15 year olds at
> >camp.
>They are entitled to. That is the part of the dynamic of a "club".
>Women are ENTITLED to act like cunts.  Super Hot women are entitled
>to act like SUPER CUNTS.   (Sorry to use the "c" word on your list,
>Cliffy!) So they do.
>My Comment:  S'arite. Some of 'em deserve the moniker...

When a woman treats me like shit when I first meet them, I don't get angry.
I am entertained actually because I don't get it too often and I know by my
ability to chat it up that it's HER and not me.  Some girls will get
just by you APPROACHING them.  If they are like that, no worries.  They are
allowed to be 'cunts'.  Don't INSULT them for doing it, they insulted
themselves.  For instance, I have had several occasions where a girl
'dissed' me and I simply said, "pleasure meeting you' and later ... they saw
me surrounded by girls and the life of the party would apologize for their
behavior earlier.  And that's when I use the Ferris Bueller line, "That's
it's people like us that have the patience to tolerate people like you. : )"
> >I know of lots of great seducers with sloppy cars.
>When I got my Saab I didn't do it because I had any idea women would
>like it. But I'm surprised at how many do. More importantly, I do my
>best to keep it clean.  I have often heard women say as they get in,
>"wow...this car is immaculate".

So do you think a great car helps?  I guess it doesn't help with the actual
PU itself (as they don't even see it), but on day 2 it must help convey
and independence right?

My Comment:  My friend Max (long time readers will recognize stories about
him) drives a 1986 Corvette (of course, to the women he meets it's a "brand
new Corvette") and absolutely swears that this car has gotten him laid
dozens of times over.  Many women like to be in that car (I often think I
should disinfect that passenger seat before I sit in it, though) and picture
themselves in it driving around, being seen.  I have heard this from many
other guys about their cars as well.
>Part of my new flake theory: sensory overload response syndrome.
>Their brains and bodies get SO overstimulated, everything just shuts
>down. If you get them and CLOSE  as they are recovered and ready for
>more fun, BOOM. If you meet them and between meeting them and
>attempting to close, something else gives them a heavy stimulation
>bout, then FORGET IT.

Yet what of the times when they are in that zombie state and you are JUST
the next guy?  I think I can still get her when she's like that.  You don't
have to get her out of that state, just ASSUME you will see her outside the
place ... assume the sale.
> >I've had 8 stripper GF's and my LTR current is one.  So is her sister.
> >Your view of strippers is whacked.  Moody yes, but the others no.
>Hee hee hee.  Maybe you are just so picky you didn't bang the drugged
>out ones.

Could be.  I'm not really THAT picky haaaa, but 8 also really enough to
warrant a CERTAINTY of concept.
> > >UNLESS you go in near closing (say an hour before) and so with some
> > >bi-girl(s) for bait.
> >
> >Using girls as bait is good advice. It doesn't have to be a bi thing
> >per-se, just social proof.
>How else can you get their attention without tipping them or bringing in a

OUCH!  It's a good question but sad that it even has to be ASKED.  Tipping
is NOT going to get her attention.... EVER.  You become a mark.  You want to
appear like you are in on her lifestyle.  You are one of THEM.  You know the
DJ, one of the girls is your GF ... or best friend ... you are a stage
performer, too.  Shit like that.  Tell YOUR interesting story that she can
relate to.  How you HATE having to get up so late and hate all the pages you
get in the day from losers trying to be with you just because you are a
performer.  Shit like that.  Nobody really KNOWS me.
>I'd seen this girl months before my post and tried psychic influence
>several times to get her to come over but she never did.  So finally I
>decided to tip her and compliment her.  I figured I didn't have anything to

First off, Psychic Influence is not exactly going to work considering there
is no evidence that it is real (in fact, by the fact that it DIDN'T work is
powerful evidence to the contrary).  Why didn't you approach her and try to
PU months before????  And lastly,  SEVERAL TIMES?  Instead of approaching
her and chatting ONCE, you cowardly DIDN'T chat with her and tried to get
HER to come to YOU ... with mind power?  I'm sure this lesson has taught you
what DOESN'T work.  Let me tell you what does work now:  YOU start the chat.
Things go faster is you actually MEET her.  Read the STRIPPER RULES.

My Comment:  While I happen to be a bit too lazy to put in the effort needed
to really get Psychic Influence and/or Mind Power techniques to work, I do
believe that they work to some extent.  Some of the people reading this have
a lot of experience with this and have gotten excellent results -- I haven't
been convinced that the skill level that would be ideal (being that you can
go somewhere, apply the techniques usually to someone you don't know who
appeals to you, and then the target approaches you and attempts to get you)
can be reached by many if any.  But I would be interested to read about the
experiences of those reading this.
>My Comment:  I have seen and heard of a lot of different strategies used on
>strippers.  A guy I know who happens to be very wealthy would go into a
>on, say a Tuesday.  He would pick the one he wanted and basically pay her
>dance and/or talk with him for about an hour.  They generally got to know
>each other fairly well as he would come in every Tuesday after that for the
>next 3-5 weeks and buy her time for an hour.  He basically doesn't do any
>or anything, and really just treats them as a person with no effort to pick
>them up or anything else. Then he would miss a week.  He would go the week
>after and then she'd be after him, asking where he was and how she missed
>him (ok, it could only be the money, but remember that he's not doing any
>picking up strategies here).  He would then talk about how he had to travel
>for business and that he may have to go somewhere resort-like such as
>Cancun.  Inevitably they would comment about how they would like to go

This is complete BS.  5 weeks of weekly spending money and you think she
CARES?  She has more interesting adventures unfolding to even NOTICE this.
This is REALLY lameass.  My GF has clients who pay her weekly.  She doesn't
exactly think ANYTHING of them other than, MO MONEY.  She services her
clients ... makes sure she is at the club when they say they will be.  If
they aren't, they aren't.  The girl only misses the INCOME not the guy's
company.  She would rather be HOME than at the club.  This entire METHOD of
your friend is complete mental masturbation.

My Comment:  The proof of the pie is in the eating.  And he's been eating a
lot of pie.  It may not be your style, but there's no question IT WORKS FOR
>and he plays a bit hard to get and from this (and I don't know the exact
>she would make herself clearly available and he'd usually take them to
>dinner afterwards.  He's an average looking guy, dresses very down to earth
>but clean, and is very polite.  And he's probably been with more of the
>hottest strippers you've ever seen than anyone else on this list.

It is my humble opinion that this is complete shit.  You wanna stripper?
One and done her.  Go in and if you don't have her eating out of your hand
15 minutes, it's not going to happen.  Don't offer her opportunities like
of making money or building her career.  Just offer her FUN.  Don't offer
either.  Just fun.  "I have to get some shit done on Tuesday.  Keep me
company and we can get some of your shit done too.  I promise nothing just

My Comment:  Not everyone can be Mystery, you know.  This guy has no real
strategies -- he's an AFC otherwise.  He has no patterns or specific tactics
other than he doesn't try and impress her with his money or any of the
things you mention.  He treats her like a regular person with respect.  Now
this may not be the best way to handle a stripper, but his tactic works.
And given that he had no other sources of information on how to become a
PUA, I give him credit for coming up with something that has gotten him
excellent results.  And that's the bottom line.  His style, created in a
vacuum, has given him what he wanted.
>I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I seduced a stripper before.  I
>never tipped her like this other one because she approached my table (as a
>target) but I was able to capture her imagination before she could ask me
>for a dance.  Still not sure how I did it though, but I didn't give her a
>real kiss until a month after our first meeting, and I only saw her one
>other time in-between that month.

well so you fucked up and went into the damage zone.  why wait a month when
she could be with you in a few days?

  I actually wrote the list about this last
>Anyway was this just a fluke that I was able to get this girl without
>closing her "the first night" or are there others on the list who have done

Fluke.  In that month she could EASILY have met someone like me that would
turn you into a HONEY again.  A month is an eternity.
>I can't help but think what Ross says about when someone says
>something can't be done, what they are really saying is they don't know how
>to do it, and they don't know anyone else who knows how to do it, but
>anything is possible.

I KNOW the secrets.  I know because I ask the girls ... I study them.  I
have a stripper GF, for fuck's sake.  I know the score.  I understand the
MIND of a stripper.  It's about INSTANT ATTRACTION (or appearing that way
with the girl).  You don't GROW on HER.  That is lameass mental masturbation
on your part.
>My post was NOT me bragging about what a great job I did on this stripper.
>I was asking for help because I really want to bang this chick, and yes,
>hopefully have her as a GF.  I knew I had some work to do, and thought
>there could be someone on here with enough experience with strippers to
>help me out.
>My Comment:  Hopefully my last comment above will show you that there are
>other ways.  Actually, as a general rule, I have been taking it pretty slow
>with some of the women I have met recently and it seems to be working.

What does "SEEMS TO BE WORKING" mean?  Either you meet them outside and
cuddle kiss and fuck or you don't.  If you DON'T, it would SEEM that it

My Comment:  I don't always take it slowly, but lately I have really slowed
it down with a few of the women I have met and the results are more what I
want -- that being, the ability to see them infrequently (or as frequently
as I want), be sexual with them, and not feel like I am expected to see them
at any particular arbitrary intervals (eg. not being pressured eventually to
give them a Saturday night).  Surely some women could be closed sooner and
you could still retain the same freedoms -- but then, I believe that
anything along these lines is possible when you step past limiting beliefs.
>The difference from the past when it didn't is that a) if it seems to be
>in the wrong direction, I tell them that I don't think they are really my
>type but perhaps we can be friends and this is just throwing the gauntlet
>in front of them

In front of a stripper?  They don't care.  If you have been in there more
than once, they see you as a CUSTOMER and anything out of a customer's mouth
about potential personal connection with the stripper is the guy's mental
masturbation and the girls know it.

My Comment:  I wasn't talking about a stripper!
>or b) my own attitude and the way I talk to them is a lot more
>male than I used to be and they just know that I am not another guy they
>can wring around their little fingers.

If they notice you HANG at the club, they will NOT be into you.

My Comment:  I wasn't talking about a stripper!
>I am not sure I can be too specific about this as it is just the outward
>reflection of my thinking.  But if you
>have specific questions, let me know.

Yes, let's get into the concept of strippers more.  Why not ask ME specific
questions and I'll tell you guys what I know so far.
1) When a girl approaches and asks "Wanna dance?" don't ANSWER ... just chat
like she didn't ask because it's just her PROGRAMMING.  Even the "How much
will you pay me" joke is old.  Don't REPLY to the question at ALL!  Simply
ZIG ZAG instantly into an opener ... "I'm curious ... I want to get your
impression on something ..."
>My Comment:  Not that I happen to be successful at the dance floor, but I
>know others who are very successful using the dance floor.  Even GameMaster
>not long ago posted about his tactics on the dance floor that seemed to
>really well.  I don't think the dance floor is for everybody (it's really
>not for me, for one) but I know that, like everything else, there are other
>ways of thinking
>about this and there are guys who are successful and get results there.

Agreeably, there are exceptions to every rule and PUing on the dance floor
is possible.  It's just that while you are busy on the dance floor for an
hour trying to get a girl, I'm in the quiet area getting ALOT further.  It's
matter of OUTCOME.  You want to end up kissing in the corner and have that
MEAN something.  If you can't convey personality other than "HI, I'M THE
GRIND MAN" then you are missing your mark.
>People who approach women over and over again, do eventually desensitize
>themselves and almost totally destroy their fears, and at the same time,
>experience with REALITY instead of living in their false reality in their
>heads, which would get disproven in the real world anyway.
>My Comment:  Ross can't make someone take action if they won't.

If they take action then and get experience by this action, why do they even
have to bother VISUALIZING when they are too busy DOING?

materials but who can't bring themselves to actually go up and talk to a
>woman.  I think Ross gives you the 'weapons' (tools), but you still need to
go >into battle to use them.

Tools, weapons, mental frames, memes ... they are useless unless they are
USED.  A person can't USE them till they find specific reasons to use them.
You won't know what those reasons are till you actually encounter a situ
you could have USED a tool.  That is why BASIC TRAINING (newbie missions) is
a far superior way of learning over second rate hypnosis/self hypnosis
trickery.  If an astronaut wishes to prepare for an important mission, they
don't simply VISUALIZE success.  They TRAIN.  They train every step of the
process.  That is what MM is all about.  TRAINING, not magically becoming
INSTANTLY COMPETENT.  Even if someone is hypnotized to FEEL COMPETENT, it's
a trick.  They aren't actually COMPETENT still.  MM makes you COMPETENT (and
confident) thanks to live experience (hence the reason for club/holodeck
training) while SS is designed to be geared for the benefits of PHOBICS.
I'm not knocking the PATTERNS within SS, that is great shit.  I knock the
'non-linear teaching principles'.  Saying it's non-linear is to merely
excuse the fact that it's unorganized.  I have discovered within this debate
the IMPORTANCE of BASIC TRAINING.  I am going to put alot more thought to
this.  BASIC TRAINING is crucial to obtaining competence.  Another
limitation I feel exists with the teaching principles in SS is that it's
still too CEREMONIAL.  The TEACHING CEREMONY of teacher standing up in front
and students uncomfortably sitting in chairs with desks is ANCIENT.  We now
know that the replication of memetic complexes is best done through
imitation.  That means, if I am going to teach people how to PU women, I'm
going to bring them out in small groups into the holodeck situations.  Then
we can sit in informal groups and exchange ideas.  No need for a CEREMONIAL
chalkboard or whiteboard and writing notes.  This is the 21st century.  We
want the information in MY head transferred as accurately as possible in
YOUR head.  TEXT alone isn't going to cut it, nor is a voice chat (seminar).
Text works for something, voice only for others but IMITATION is still the
BEST way to replicate a meme.  You can't just read a book on JUGGLING for
instance.  You have to SEE it happen and then PRACTICE with the pro juggler
assisting you till you can handle it yourself.  THEN reading books will help
you.  But you need BASIC TRAINING before the books will make sense.  I view
the pickup arts like the martial arts.  You don't just go to a seminar and
know karate or Kung Fu.  You learn through IMITATION first and THEN later on
you can read the books to get a greater understanding.  This is why I
strongly believe merely going to a seminar is NOT the answer to learning the
art of the PU.  First you go on BASIC TRAINING newbie missions (preferably
with ME).  You discuss the basics and immediately TRY THEM OUT (that is what
is cool in a club setting - Let's say I'm still with 5 'students' and I
explain about OPENERS ... I then immediately show them a few and ask them to
perform a few openers, too ... the opportunities are all around - great
learning opportunities).  This technique for teaching is going to educate
the student far more efficiently than if they go to a seminar and just sit
and listen to the teacher.  How does sitting in a room full of guys help?
point?  Having given this alot of thought, I WILL write a book - I may also
perform seminars (though only 3 hour ones not 3 days - followed by in the
field practice) - but I may consider getting 5 students at a time and having
a conversation with them over dinner and then going out to a club for more
talk and in field practice and then a bite to eat after to talk about what
we learned.  I would do this for 3 days.  What would I charge for this?
Most likely something comparable to what Ross charges for the same amount of
time.  Only you get REAL FIELD EXPERIENCE, smaller groups, better ways of
learning, great food, great company and a chance to actually score with
women.  It's a Mystery Method» WORKSHOP.  Workshops beat seminars when you
have to learn something as tactile as this art.  I watched Ross' LA seminar
and it took literally over an hour to get to ONE major point (how the dating
frame sucked).  I am NOT exaggerating either.  I am interested in teaching
PRACTICAL shit.  If you can PU in a club, you can PU ANYWHERE.  Will you
bomb with girls at first?  Certainly!  And I'll be proud for you TRYING.
The concept is to get THROUGH the bombing phase quickly.  It's not by length
of time but by the amount of approaches.  In fact, I would most likely have
you approach a girl in the club BEFORE I talked about openers so you can
learn WHY I do what I do.  Each step of the way can be instantly TESTED -
with us right INSIDE the holodeck we can practice concepts instantly -
besides, a group of guys in a club - that's NORMAL.  We grab a table and
shoot the shit and then get up and TRY the ideas OUT!  Right there.  Maybe a
little preparation (talking about the ANATOMY of the PU) over dinner and
THEN we HOLODECK it.  Any comments on this?  Would this be valuable?
Certainly it won't make me as FAMOUS as if I did SEMINARS but you would
learn FASTER, MORE EFFECTIVELY, and a hell of a lot MORE MEMES would be
transferred to your brain.

My Comment:  Without going into great detail, I think you vastly underrate
the value and quality of Ross's seminars.  I think if you had actually
attended one you would have a completely different viewpoint -- watching a
video gives you an idea but it's similar (to use one of your analogies) to
thinking about picking up a chick and actually going up to one and talking
to her.  His seminars kick ass and have made a tremendous difference in
many, many guys lives.  He also teaches that there is no substitute for
experience and for actually going out there and tripping on your dick.
>And like anything else, unless you practice you won't get good
>at it.  I think, however, for someone with Mystery's experience, Ross would
>be able to make a significant difference for him right away.

Agreed.  Seminars and books are GREAT AFTER you have had BASIC TRAINING.  I
think I will strongly consider running Mystery Method» Basic Training or
something.  I believe this would be a very valuable course for people.
Maybe a book called BASIC TRAINING when the student can do the course
himself ... don't go to chapter 2 till he has approached 12 girls ... that
sorta thing.  Comments?


Ok the other day, my buddy lent me his copy of the book...
How to Pick up Women in the 90s!  Instruction in the art of meeting, dating,
and seducing women by William Perkins The website is at

I just started reading it, but I'm curious if anyone has read it or has any


>>Whoa! A stripper??? For a GIRLFRIEND?  Ok.....but be sure that's
> >what you want. How about a nice, firecracker, fun evening of banging
> >and then, sayonara. Dude, you might want to redefine your outcome. If
> >you like emotional instability, drug usage, flakiness, mood swings,
> >stalking and a host of other problems, ok.
> I've had 8 stripper GF's and my LTR current is one.  So is her sister.
> Your view of strippers is whacked.  Moody yes, but the others no.

Ross is absolutely right, a host of other problems like prostitution, kids,
etc.etc. You're on the inside looking out and therefore affected by the
lifestyle. Doesn't your infallible logic tell you that, or are you too close
to the problem?  I was on the inside for three years and I had one hell of
good time, but I would trade all that today for what I've reclaimed and that
is a normal existence with women who can FEEL real emotion and return that
emotion with great enthusiasm. Strippers suck in bed. Not to mention you can
never turn your back on then.
It's the things you don't know that will rock your "belief system" and it's
just a matter of time. Strippers will be strippers just like women will be
women but the degree of separation is immense. Call me back in a year, dude.
I'm betting your arrogance will eventually catch up with you in this world.
BTW, the two strippers I'm fucking right now have boyfriends/husbands that
are as SECURE as you. I'm not telling you how to live your life, I don't
care what you do. But don't defend the choices you've made in an attempt to
water down a lifestyle that is as ugly as it gets.


>I see it a bit like military training.  you know how they go through TOUGH
>TRAINING and by the end of their 8 week training they can handle >ANYTHING.
They prepare for war.  Newbie missions are training missions >hat prepare
the guy for the PICKUP.  A guy will learn a hell of alot more by >coming
with me for a month than by sitting in a chair listening to some guy's
>voice for a month.
>Anyone care to comment on this logic?

Yes -  I think both of you are right for different people - some guys need
to learn to approach, and can only do it through experience.  Some people
need to develop a state, or role, to make approaches - I myself have no
problem with approaches and already know 5-15 girls in every bar/club I go
to because I'm outgoing and my pic is in the paper every week......however,
I have a hard time talking "mushy" like you guys to these girls, and leading
into patterns, so it's imperative that I practice patterns alone in my room.
I don't normally talk about chick's "Ideal Vacation Spot" or "Ideal Man",
and I don't normally talk with sexual metaphor, so I have wayyyyyy too many
girl "friends." So you can see how different strokes work for different

(Responding to stripper topic)
>My Comment:  I have seen and heard of a lot of different strategies used on
>strippers.  A guy I know who happens to be very wealthy would go into a
>club on, say a Tuesday.  He would pick the one he wanted and basically pay
>her to .........
>but clean, and is very polite.  And he's probably been with more of the
>hottest strippers you've ever seen than anyone else on this list.

Here's some interesting trivia on strippers - 90% of them date musicians
Not famous rock stars, but guys in garage bands -
These are the kinds of guys they love -  they are fucking rich men alot
sometimes, but the guy they love is usually some homeless heroine addicted

I know this cuz I'm a musician, so I don't mean to put them down.......but
I've noticed that if you come into a place late (i.e.. after a gig) and
decline when they ask if you want champagne/lap dance, whatever, but still
be friendly, you can get somewhere, act detached - you are having
fun talking about the gig with your bandmates -  you are friendly but
detached....the girls are the entertainment and you're just wanting to
relax, not to get all sexual......
Let a few guitar picks drop on the table/bar when you pull money out for a
drink......Have at least one of the wingmen wear an "All Access" backstage
pass that you made up at KINKO'S- putting a name on it is good cuz it gives
the girl a chance to connect with wingman and he can set up a mystique for
you "I don't know, maybe if I ask him you can sit with us, but I have to
ask - he's really tired from the show...."
>I am in control and I'll tell you what I want to tell you!  So far this has
>been working extremely well.  This will hopefully lead to more comments
>about  a topic I consider critically important -- the competitiveness of

Great topic! It's such a hard balance to keep -  the other women make you
very attractive to a prospective target, and brings out her competitive
nature, but if you explain your relationship to the other women to the
target in the wrong way you are a flea-bag STD-ridden skank. I would also
like to hear more about how other guys keep from lying while maintaining the
harem - (I agree that arguing about the rights and wrongs of lying is
off-topic and not useful) - but Cliff's way seems quite intriguing. Being a
talkative person by nature, it's hard for me to keep things from people when
they keep asking, and this is how I sometimes have found myself
supplicating.......I don't think of it as supplicating when I'm doing it,
because I'm not such a private person and would really like to share my
ideas with her....but nevertheless, I am learning that the target will see
it as supplication, and it's not in my best interest to tell her the exact
qualifications of my relationship with others...

One way I've been doing it is waiting till the time (doggy dinner-bowl?)
that I know I could get the goods and then stopping.......and saying...."you
know I really like you alot but I don't want to give you the wrong
idea......I'm just not sure I'm the man for you, because I don't know if you
need somebody that's going to be here all the time, and I travel so
much....(by this time she will probably know that I'm gone many weekends- I
am a jazz and blues musician, and I also write music stories so I'm gone
alot doing research....two to 3 months out of every year I'm in
Amsterdam)....problem with this is it sometimes breaks the state and I have
to wait until next time for her to have had time to think about it
.......what's great is that they all think...."Once he's had my golden tuft
he just won't want any thing else, so it doesn't matter if he's having other
women NOW.." and that's where you can use the competitiveness to your

But it sometimes comes up before then, so what do you do?
I've had women ask me what I do after I have run a pattern, I tell them
something, and then I've heard things like, "I thought you might seduce
women for a living with your descriptive language."
And I said something like-" No haven't figured out to make a living at it

Or when I've said "I just like to make pretty girls smile..."
Her: Do you make ALOT of girls smile?
Me: Yes - I have alot of lady friends, but I'm not a player."
I never tried to close with either of these chicks so I don't know if what I
said is right.....but I like the "I go out with alot of girls because I am else am I going to find my dream girl?"

All these things install competitiveness, I'm sure, but they are dangerous
because you can end up looking like a horn dog mack-daddy. How do some of
you instill the competition, cover your ass, and avoid being labeled as a
poon-hound all at once?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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