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"Do you think I am a wicked, wicked woman…?"

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Do you think I am a wicked, wicked woman…?
4/12/01 4:07:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time


David Shade:
The Remote Control Egg

Clifford, this is so hilarious.  I was surfing the web, and being the
twisted demented creative person that I am, always looking for new ways to
let my girlfriend have fun, I came across a 'remote control egg' at  This is a small plastic egg shaped vibrator that is turned
on and off by radio commands from a small remote control.  I thought "Remote
control! I have an idea!"  I immediately ordered one.  It is somewhat loud,
but it cannot be heard when it is 'in vivo' (in natural position.)

When it arrived, I called my girlfriend and told her what I had purchased.
I told her "You are going to wear it and I am going to hold the remote
control, and when we are out on our date, if you are a really good girl,
maybe I'll turn it on for you."  She said "Oooooh, sounds like fun."  I told
her before hand because I didn't want to shock her with the idea when she
arrived, but instead, I wanted her to fantasize about it for a few days

When she arrived for our date, I showed it to her.  She laughed, but she
said she'd play along.  I told her to go into the bedroom and place it 'in
vivo.'  I heard her exclaim "What's with this black string?"  I said "That's
the antenna/pull cord. Just hide it in your panties." hehe.  Then she came
out and sat next to me with a smile on her face.  I held up the remote and
said "Are you ready?"  She said "Yes."  So I turned it on.  She laughed and
then started loving it.  I turned it off and put the remote back in my
pocket and said "OK, let's go to dinner."

On the way there, I turned it on and let her enjoy it while I told her how I
was going to turn it on when we are at dinner and everybody will be looking
at her, but she cannot let anyone know what she is feeling because she is a
very proper woman.  She cannot let anyone know just how much of a naughty
little girl she really is.  She was ready just by hearing the fantasy.  I
turned it off and we parked.

When we were standing in the lobby placing our name on the list, while
everybody was watching her, I turned it on.  I spoke softly into her ear how
she cannot let anyone know just how naughty she really is.  We took a seat
at the bar to wait for our table.  I brought her up a few more times with
the remote while speaking softly into her ear.  Eventually we were called
and brought to our table.

We were seated at a table with many other people sitting at tables around
us.  Each time the waitress came to us, I turned it on.  My girlfriend did a
lot of smiling while ordering.  While we were waiting for our food, I turned
it on while I again narrated from across the table.  She got really close so
I turned it off.  Our food arrived so I left the remote alone and we ate
dinner.  Later, after the plates had been cleared, and we had new drinks
brought to us, we resumed our little game.

I turned it back on and left it on.  I said "You cannot let anyone know what
you are feeling because you are a very proper woman.  You cannot let anyone
know just how much of a naughty little girl you really are."  She said
softly "David, I'm going to cum."  I said "Not yet, you must ask
permission."  She said "Please David."  I said "You want to hear those
famous words."  She said "Yes."  I waited a moment and then I said the
famous words that are her command to cum, and she closed her eyes and she
did, right there, at the table, in front of everybody.  As far as I could
tell, nobody knew.  But there was one young lady at the table next to us who
seemed to be concerned that maybe my girlfriend wasn't feeling so well.

The following weekend I had my girlfriend wear it again while we went out
dancing.  I teased her with it all evening.  But then when we were out on
the dance floor, I left it on.  Next to us was a stunningly beautiful tall
classy redhead in a formal evening gown who was dancing by herself.  I had
seen her earlier sitting at a table on a double date.  I waited until my
girlfriend was really 'close' and then I turned off the remote and I tapped
the redhead on the shoulder and held out the remote and said to her "Do you
know what this is?"  She stopped dancing and just looked at it.  I said
"Hold it" and I handed it to her.  My girlfriend became very embarrassed,
but she does love beautiful women.  Then I said "Turn it on."  She turned it
on.  Then I said "Now look at my girlfriend's face."  The redhead's eyes got
really big and she said to my girlfriend "Is he bullshitting?" and my
girlfriend smiled and replied "No."  Then the redhead started waving the
remote in front of my girlfriend's skirt.  Then I said to the redhead "Tell
her to cum like a good girl."  The redhead said into my girlfriend's ear
"Cum like a good girl and let the juices flow down your leg!"  hehe.  Then
my girlfriend held on to me tight and she came right there on the dance
floor.  Then the redhead smiled and handed the remote back to me and she
walked off.

This is the finest in plastic artillery.  Unfortunately it is way overpriced
at a hundred bucks.  Batteries are included, but you will want new ones.
The transmitter requires an odd little 12 volt battery called the A23.  It
can be found in the camera section.  The transmitter seems to be easy on
batteries.  The egg however, burns up batteries quickly.  It requires two
AAA batteries.  You will want to use Energizer Titanium for greatest effect.
Use NEW batteries for the egg each outing.  As for the transmitter, just
carry a spare battery.


Tell me you think I am a wicked, wicked woman, to be trying
to reconcile my marriage, but be fantasizing about sex with other men as
well?  Or is it that we humans were never meant to be monogamous?  What do
you think?

Believe it or not, I am having pangs of morality (and some guilt)  about my
wicked thoughts and feelings.  I must confess to you that the other day
while away with my ex, after we had sex and he fell asleep...(ho hum), I
went into this altered state and almost had an orgasm fantasizing about what
I thought the most perfect cock would look like.....size, shape, colour,
smell....and who it is attached to, of course.  I really don't know what's
come over me pun intended....tee hee.  Do you think this is
normal?  I want to be with him and be sexually free to enjoy myself with
others, too.  I don't think he would like that at all.  Please give me your
point of view here Cliffy .....I enjoy your comments in the posts and I want
you to comment here for me.  It's almost like I've hit a a
crisis.  I don't think I necessarily agree with the Judeo/Christian views on
morality and sexual expression that our western society is drenched in.  It
is so hard to find people as open as myself about all this.  This is a
realization about myself that I have come to very recently.....and don't
quite know how to assimilate it into my life.

My Comments:  What do I think?  I think that we are probably more alike than
we would like to admit.  I think we'd all like to have multiple partners
while the partner that means the most to us should not be permitted or want
(!) such freedom (yes, there are exceptions and there are people who swing
and accept their mates with others, but I think that if we are talking about
the general population that this comment is probably accurate).  So do I
think you are a wicked, wicked woman?  It would be totally hypocritical of
my to think that and, frankly, as long as you aren't (currently) in my
stable, I think that's ok!  Of course, if you were someone I was seeing I
don't want to share you but still want my own freedom.  The solution?  If
you were seeing me it would be a practical advantage for you to be bi-sexual
and indulge your additional urges by finding new recruits for us to enjoy

Actually, from my experience, if the man you were with were truly fulfilling
all your needs and desires, you probably wouldn't be thinking about this.
But then again, it's been so long since I was in a similar situation I am
not sure if this comment really holds water or if it's the result of
creeping memory loss.


Oh my God, Cliff, Natalie is the bomb! She is a keeper for sure. Now the
fucked up thing associated with boy Dave bet me $100 I'd
never be able to sink a hook into this chick. She's just a badass. The nite
I met her I saw her flame about 10 guys and just dropped em' where they
stood. Her friend Melissa (that may be the single most beautiful woman I've
ever seen ) is dating Dave and he hasn't gotten to first base with this
chick and it's killing him and he's mad at ME cause I went and fucked
Natalie the next night and
Natalie of course is feeding all the goodies to Melissa and that's inflaming
Dave even more to the point where he is criticizing my tactics and telling
me I'm
doing everything wrong!  Big Smile!! Here's the question I want to
ask.....what is it in guys that cause the "competition" button to be pushed
even with your best friend? Same thing happened with another good
friend...he couldn't deal with the competition so he turned on his best
friend and got me booted from the Club. I don't understand it. : (
Natalie's cooking dinner tomorrow nite.  Cliff, this girl is a trip.
Thursday nite I finally got around to eliciting her values (all fucked up)
and I fed 'em to her Friday nite at the Palm Restaurant and launched into a
pattern about how we were both members of the same "soul extension" group
and she bit hard. Now I didn't use the term soulmate,
she drew her own conclusions but who knows, we might be. She and I get along
like nobody's business and she just got all lit up and defensive when I
tried to play the typical game with her...fuck, I don't know but now she's
convinced we are soulmates...I'm gonna wait to make a decision about that
but it is weird, we have a lot in common.


Do the comments about psychic influence refer to Do you happen to have a
collection of product reviews similar to the compilation of the annotated
list of books that have appeared on the list?

My Comment: No, actually, Mind Power Seduction by Amargi Hillier and Ross's
Psychic Influence Seminars were what I was mainly thinking of.  That site
you mention is of interest too, and the man behind it subscribes to this
list.  Amargi's site is at and Ross has
some info on  And I don't have a collection of product
reviews but if anyone wants to supply one....


>So do you think a great car helps?  I guess it doesn't help with the actual
>PU itself (as they don't even see it), but on day 2 it must help convey
>style and independence right?

I honestly don't know. I've just discovered quite by accident that
many chicks dig Saabs. Or at least they dig mine. Frequently I hear
stuff like, "This car is the bomb." Or "I dig your zoom-mobile".
This is as non-SS a topic as it gets by the way. Well, I think maybe
because SAAB is positioned as the brand of individuals/unique people
that gets tacked on to the way the girls want to think about
themselves. Who knows?
>   That is why BASIC TRAINING (newbie missions) is
>a far superior way of learning over second rate hypnosis/self hypnosis

More either/or thinking. In fact, elite forces always use a
combination of both, MENTAL training as well as physical rehearsal.

What is this obsession of yours with either/or thinking? It's part
of your need to view yourself as "heroic" isn't it?  Geez.
>While SS is designed to be geared for the benefits of PHOBICS.

Dude, you are truly limited.  I can help phobics and do help them,
but a huge portion of my customer base are guys who have done ok and
want to do better. If you don't think mental rehearsal and BUILDING
and DESIGNING a mental state that improves your actual performance is
possible, keep sweating and swearing.  Your limit, YOUR problem, not
mine and my students'.
>I'm not knocking the PATTERNS within SS, that is great shit.  I knock the
>'non-linear teaching principles'.  Saying it's non-linear is to merely
>excuse the fact that it's unorganized.

Ha ha. As if you understood how to train people and move their minds
to new understandings of NEW ways of thinking. The mind doesn't learn
linear; it learns in pieces, leaps and bounds, steps back and steps
forward.  And the problem with many guys (engineers, software folks)
is that they are already WAY TOO LINEAR. But really, I won't argue
teaching methods with someone who hasn't taught anyone in his whole
life, as far as I can tell.
>limitation I feel exists with the teaching principles in SS is that it's
>still too CEREMONIAL.  The TEACHING CEREMONY of teacher standing up in
>and students uncomfortably sitting in chairs with desks is ANCIENT.

Woefully ignorant of what actually goes on. I address this 10 minutes
out of the gate in the beginning of every seminar, reminding students
this is NOT a classroom. It only looks like one.  I spend a good deal
of time destroying traditional classroom ideas before I get going on
anything else. You really need to stop being so unscientific in your
evaluation of my trainings. Why...I'd have to say your approach is
almost MYSTICAL in its lack of empirical verification!
>   We now
>know that the replication of memetic complexes is best done through

Amazing how you have bought into memetics as scientific fact; it's
just another convenient MEME for explaining things! By the way,
Richard Brodie, who wrote Virus of the Mind is one of my best
friends, a neighbor and a HUGE fan of my trainings. He considers me
to be the best trainer he's ever experienced and the guy has been
going to seminars for decades! that one, Myssiel.
>You discuss the basics and immediately TRY THEM OUT (that is what
>is cool in a club setting

Ha ha ha ha. Man, have you got alot to learn about teaching others to
learn.  "The basics" only work if what you are teaching is BASICALLY
what they already know. If you are teaching an ENTIRELY NEW AND
DIFFERENT WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THE ISSUE, you need a lot more than "basic
>  I watched Ross' LA seminar
>and it took literally over an hour to get to ONE major point (how the
>dating frame sucked).

That is the only point YOU saw. I can assure you, alot of
points were also being built in. Just because YOU don't catch it from
your pedestrian frame, doesn't mean it isn't going on.
>My Comment:  Without going into great detail, I think you vastly underrate
>the value and quality of Ross's seminars.  I think if you had actually
>attended one you would have a completely different viewpoint -- watching a
>video gives you an idea but it's similar (to use one of your analogies) to
>thinking about picking up a chick and actually going up to one and talking
>to her.  His seminars kick ass and have made a tremendous difference in
>many, many guys lives.  He also teaches that there is no substitute for
>experience and for actually going out there and tripping on your dick.

Mystery wouldn't know; he's never been, even though over a year ago
I offered to him to come as my guest. With his new, obnoxious and
radically ignorant attitude, the offer is withdrawn.
>Ross is absolutely right, a host of other problems like prostitution, kids,
>etc.etc. You're on the inside looking out and therefore affected by the

Ha ha. I used to hang out with my friend at the time, Michelle, who
was going to ASU and putting herself through school by dancing nude
at Les Girls in Tempe, AZ.  (Tempe is an hour plane ride from LAX).

Anyhoot, Michelle had been molested by her step dad up to her teen
years. She had a bf at the time whom she chose for his huge dingus,
which, she told me, was wide around as a soup can and she liked to
get it anal.  Mickey wound up getting drunk one night and slashed his
face with a piece of broken glass and  he responded by knocking her
out cold.

And she was one of the better adjusted ones.  Smoked dope EVERY day,
good old Mickey did, by the way.
>To my astonishment this morning, here is her reply:
>  >Hello, good morning, I must say I have to apologize.  I didn't mean to
>  >so insensitive.  Please accept my apology and thank you for your e-mail.
>  >
>  >I didn't get cold feet - it was a little more complicated than that.  It
>  >actually had nothing to do with you.  I'm just going through a learning
>  >period right now.  I will tell you about it some time.  If you would
>  >we can keep chatting.
>  >
>  >Again, thank you for being kind.
>Booyah!  To be honest I didn't expect a reply at all, let alone one like
>this.  So, at the risk of botching this, I'd like some input on the best
>way to proceed here.  I have a pretty good idea, but I think this is one
>worthy of the list's interest.

Yes, but notice something.  Her answer is VAGUE. She isn't giving
REAL information. People who care about you and who want to give you
genuine reassurance don't bullshit you with vagueness. They tell you
what is going on.

What the fuck does "going through a learning period" mean, anyway?
Notice, her presupposition is that "going through a learning period"
means it IS ok to be rude, insensitive, etc. even though she
says she didn't MEAN to be that way.

Hey, my whole life is one big learning period. Does that justify
being self-absorbed or rude? No, those are CHOICES we make!

For her,"learning period" means, "self-absorbed, do what she feels
like, courtesy be damned".  She's put that label of "learning period"
on it to make it ok. And you damn well better bet there is SOME guy
she is boning during this "learning period".  And it isn't YOU!

Funk dis one, buddy! She's using all the on-line attention as her
emotional support system as she goes through whatever bullshit she is
going through (I just BET a Tabby Treat it is some jerk-ass guy who
is fucking her and making her miserable!).


> Doc:
> In reply to Mys:
> When I'm here in my "home town" (university town), I
> end up just hanging about with my friends, meeting their friends,
> talking to them and using them as pawns.  I wouldn't walk up to
> a random guy and chat him up.  People don't BOTHER to meet you
> unless as Ross mentioned you're in a meat market which does exist
> but it's based ENTIRELY on PHYSICAL LOOKS (since it consists
> mainly of a dance floor!).  However, I am sure this is EXACTLY
> what I need to learn to do.  What do I say though?  This is
> funny, I can't believe I'm asking how to speak with a guy.

On a recent sarging mission at a club, I walked up to two separate
pairs of guys, for practice, since I didn't see any easy
opportunities to open with chicks, and I was still warming up.

To open with the guys, I said, gesturing at the surrounding HB's:
"Hi. Who do you like?"

and we preceded to talk about chicks and then other topics.

Another opener I've used at parties, where I don't know anyone:
"Hi. Who do you know?"


Hi, I'm new, so I'll introduce myself briefly. I'm a 22 year old RAFC living
in London. I'm pretty good looking, though I am short also (5'7). I'm doing
okay, FAR better than I used to, but I still have a long ways to go, and
have no SS skills at all really. I'd like your insights into what I think is
a pretty unusual situation; I'm not asking how to 'get the girl' per se, but
just want feedback on my behaviour so far and how to manage what is a pretty
odd set of circumstances.

A while ago I met a girl I'll call HB Doc (she's a doctor, studying to be a
surgeon). A definite 9, I met her in the queue for the coat check in a club.
She was queuing to get her stuff with 2 friends, both also 9's. I opened by
asking her to hold my bag for me while I sorted my jacket out. Lame-sounding
maybe, but it did kind of work - as super hotties tend to be used to the
reverse, I think it at least aroused curiosity. Eventually she asked in a
semi-pissy way what was taking so long, which I took nonchalantly. Then she
hit me with this line: 'You have five seconds to impress me. Go.'. I
returned this by staring at her for about five seconds, then replying 'No.
You have five seconds to impress ME.' This paved the way for some fluff
talk, a bit of negging, and I # closed her before friends dragged her away.

She postponed our first date twice, which normally would have been grounds
for nexting her, except that both times she got put on call on short notice,
and was very apologetic, and offered alternative dates. I was pretty
forgiving about it; too supplicatory? Anyway, eventually we met but the
evening was not fantastic. I was not performing up to par (totally AFC,
exchanging DATA not making her FEEL anything) and she was exhausted, having
just worked two days and two nights straight, and so was unresponsive too.
Anyway, despite this, I called her again and we made plans. She cancelled
these at very short notice via text message saying something like 'sorry I'm
working'. I fired back 'goodbye then', because I figured this was a lost
cause and I don't need that shit. About a week later I get a text message
from her; she's all friendly again, asking me how I am doing, etc. etc. I
reply fairly sarcastically, but eventually we talk again on the phone, she
is receptive. She actually invites me out for that evening, but I tell her
I'm busy (which I was) and we make plans for another time.

I call her again on that day to set a venue (which I should have done with
the original call I know, but anyway), and something is badly wrong - I wake
her up, she's been in the hospital all night with a friend. Turns out later
this friend got hit by a car coming home one night with her; the friend is
dead now. I don't know the full story at the time, so I just say fine, let's
cancel, call me when you feel up to it. This is on Monday of last week. I
get a call on Friday night, quite late. She's in bar in town, a little drunk
and tells me to come down. I say I can't. Then she starts asking me to come
down there, pick her up and take her back to my place. I say, why? She says
she's out with all these friends who know her really well and knew the
friend, and everyone's being so fucking sympathetic and she can't stand it
any more. She says she wants to be with *me* because we don't know each
other too well. I tell her I can't get her - it's too late, too far away,
etc. After about 20 minutes of her trying to convince me, I make an offer
she take the train to somewhere near to me, and I will pick her up from
there. She sets off, but then turns back when she realizes how far it
actually is. She calls me again about 90 minutes later, now back at a
friend's apartment. She's really upset, crying, just wanting to talk about
it. I pretty much just shut up and let her talk, and after 30 minutes or so
say goodnight.

The next day there's a message on my cellphone telling me to call when I get
up, so I do. She apologizes for last night, and we just chat and joke a
little. I tell her this is stupid, we have talked on the phone a LOT (which
we have, like 8 times or so, I didn't mention earlier I had to cancel plans
at one point to fly to New York for a funeral, so there was more screwing
around, but anyway), and need to make time to see each other. Unfortunately,
neither of us has the same night free this week, so nothing's doing. I spoke
to her again the following evening because I want to show some concern, and
she definitely appreciates it.

Anyway, that pretty much brings us up to speed. Main problems are this: it's
now been almost 2 months since we originally met, but due to all this shit
that's been going on I have only been on *one* date with her. The bitch
defenses are down, and I have her interested, but as you can see I am in
this weird situation of having spoken to her a LOT on the phone, and in much
more intimate circumstances than is normal for the amount I have seen her.
Also she is five years older than me (27) and I think she may perceive that
as an issue. Any tips on how you advanced PUA's would proceed with this
would be very interesting for me to hear.

My Comment:  This reads to me like you have the closing in your hand.  I
would invite her to come over preferably after 10 pm one night.  I think you
would have closed her had you gone that night she worked hard at getting you
to go get her.  Which reminds me -- being lazy is one of my own problems.
Any good ideas out there about curing that issue?


bro. First off, Psychic Influence is not exactly >>going to work considering
there is no evidence that it is real ...
>I do believe that they work to some extent.  Some of the people reading
>have a lot of experience with this and have gotten excellent results -- I
>been convinced that the skill level that would be ideal...

I know of a friend who does have a bit of "sixth sense" about people.  I
wouldn't say it's "psychic influence" but he can do weird shit like guess
people's last names (and haven't ever met this person or have the time to do
research on them!).  He can say things such as "Hmm... you move around a lot
with your family, don't you?" or "It's funny but I have this feeling that
you just had a birthday in the past 2 weeks ..." and MOST times he's RIGHT!!
It's amazing.  I know some of you will say he's bullshitting but he really
isn't.  Sometimes he does this with me and it just absolutely astounds me
(he said to me once, "Dude, I know this is going to sound strange.. but is
your dad ok?" and he actually got a cold the day before.  I didn't tell
ANYONE about this.").

Unfortunately, this is the same friend who has recently "settled down" with
a girl he "loves", has been doing a lot of ecstasy and has attempted
suicide 3 times.  He's not even talking to me anymore.  So I guess amazing
powers goes both ways.

I think part of "mind power" exists, as scientific research has proven that
you send out "wave frequencies" or whatever the term is (gosh, I should know
this) when you use your brain.  I am sure it's like anything - it can be
picked up depending on 2 factors: 1. It has to be a strong enough signal,
perhaps through "training", or an innate ability . 2. The "receiver" must be
"switched on". It's like putting your mobile phone next to your speakers.
If you receive a message/phone call, and your speakers are switched on,
you'll hear them going "doo doo doo doo doo..." and then "BEEP" goes your
phone, there's your bitch on the line!

So I do think some people do have "psychic influence".  I would only wonder
if you can train it. I have tried this once or twice, and hasn't worked for
me and I just thought "fuck it".  I'm meeting girls the real way (but this'd
be the ultimate cool way.  I asked my friend how he does it.  He says, "I
just have a feeling about things." And he never went further than this.)
>My Comment:  Not everyone can be Mystery, you know.  This guy has no >real
strategies -- he's an AFC otherwise.  He has no patterns or specific
>tactics other than he doesn't try and impress her with his money or any of
>things you mention.  He treats her like a regular person with respect.  Now
>this may not be the best way to handle a stripper, but his tactic works.
>And given that he had no other sources of information on how to become a
>PUA, I give him credit for coming up with something that has gotten him
>excellent results.  And that's the bottom line.  His style, created in a
>vacuum, has given him what he wanted.

With strippers: I've only been to strip club like twice (well, I'm 19, and
going to strip clubs really isn't my bag, baby). I've been with 2 strippers
so far, but it never lasted.  The strippers aren't there to meet horny guys,
or, in general, according to a stripper friend who graduated from my
university, she told me that they see most people as "customers".  When I go
to a strip club with pals, I just chill, sit back, relax, and watch them
dance or sometimes not even giving a shit.  Here in the UK, the dancers are
allowed to come up to your table and lap dance for you in public (for free)
during their performance.  Many times this has happened to me and these
would perhaps be the ONLY times I give them a bit of attention in a polite
way, and I never even check out their body but keep eye contact (and they
seem to enjoy that). You see their bodies even if you look at them in the
eyes anyways.  I mean if you keep staring at that nipple, your mouth might
be the next thing on it and then the next thing you find are two huge
bouncer hands around your shoulders .  I really don't know much about strip
clubs as I've given up on them, but the 2 strippers I've been with I
actually met both at around the same time IN the club, and went out somewhat

So the thing that worked for me... I think it is to show respect yet be
there not for the sexual turn-ons but for the fun atmosphere, like you are
just there because you find the idea of strip clubs and strippers
fascinating/interesting - whatever.  As I said, I NEVER chatted them up.  I
NEVER bought myself dances.  I NEVER do anything - I just sit there, chat
with my friends, if a girl comes up and chooses to dance for you, I sit
back, smile, and when she jumps on me and rides or whatever I say something
like "Ooh! You're good at this aren't you?? : )"  You see, this is not what
typical guy in a strip club does.  They don't smile,  they freeze up, and
some of them just stare at the girl, or even attempt to touch them.
Strippers KNOW they are in CONTROL most of the time.  The key is to break
this pattern.  You do this by simply NOT acting like a typical customer who
comes back all the time just because it's better than reading the beauty
works of Hef.  What would Hef do if he was in a strip club?  I mean, even if
he's ever there, he'll probably have playmates Tanya or what have you on
either side, getting wet at the sight of naked girls dancing.  But he'd also
just sit there, and really not give a shit because he's so used to it! He
probably wouldn't even buy a dance.  He doesn't need it.  There are times
when I meet strippers by buying my friend a dance, and yet not getting one
myself. The key is to gain RESPECT from these girls but just be careful
because A LOT of them are SIMPLY money-diggers (so maybe Hef's a bad

The time I scored with both strippers, I went alone, but stayed for less
than an hour.  There were tables FULL of guys, and this 10 SHB (blonde girl,
slim, actually looks very innocent and shy, VERY gorgeous and actually
pretty intelligent) didn't even say anything to them.  She came over and sat
with me.  I was in there, writing Christmas cards for friends.  The only
reason I went there was because it was Christmas time, I was stuck in
college for vacation, and no one was here - I got so bored I went for a
little "entertainment" (and what an entertainment I got).  She was the best
looking girl in the club, and I sat there talking to her, not giving a shit
even though all the guys at the other table were all staring at me, and
another hottie (the other girl I got) was dancing out there.  I sat there,
spoke to her, like a normal, regular guy.  It was strange because she was
there in lingerie, and I was there fully clothed.  Both strippers I picked
up - I'd say it might have had a bit to do with my looks but it's not all to
it.  No matter how good looking you are in a strip club (imagine Brat Pitt,
mean Brad)  if you don't have the act you still won't be able to get a good
close.  Thing is: maybe what Mys or Cliff or whoever is saying would make
more sense.  I never planned anything when I went to a club, I just went
there and let it happen passively.

Anyway later on, this Leanne girl told me she's just going to try to make a
little money, but will be back.  I told her it's ok, I'm actually leaving,
and pleasure meeting her.  She seemed slightly surprised (perhaps most
people stay there for ages) didn't hesitate but said, "Oh you're leaving? It
was really nice meeting you too.  Anyway, when are you coming back?"  I told
her "I don't' really come to strip clubs, so I might not be back."  She told
me she works at the local sports connection in the day time (bingo) and
actually wrote me her number (I didn't even ask) and told me to call

Be passive with a stripper, but respect them for what they do, act intrigued
but DON'T overdo it .  And don't be weird.  When I was writing Christmas
greeting cards, it could've came across as weird if it wasn't for the fact
that I wasn't from that town, and I didn't have a story to go with it (the
fact that I was stuck in school, it got really boring, etc.).

Strip clubs really ain't my thing but for those of you who are into that,
I'd say just give it another shot.  I don't know, I find it just a waste of
money unless all your buddies felt like going.  (Even then I still prefer
actual CLUBS.  You can always get HB there to strip!!! Lol!)
>My Comment:  Without going into great detail, I think you vastly underrate
>the value and quality of Ross's seminars.  I think if you had actually
>attended one you would have a completely different viewpoint -- watching a
>video gives you an idea but it's similar (to use one of your analogies) to
>thinking about picking up a chick and actually going up to one and talking
>to her.  His seminars kick ass and have made a tremendous difference in
>many, many guys lives.  He also teaches that there is no substitute for
>experience and for actually going out there and tripping on your dick.

Mys, even though I have ALWAYS agreed with a lot of what you do and we play
on similar grounds, I think what Ross offers is something that's TRULY
fascinating.  I also think that many people have enjoyed his seminars, and
its worked well for them.  It's good that you are also offering something
different, and perhaps some people would prefer a "workshop" kind of thing,
but others might prefer what Ross as to offer.  I have personally never been
to any of Ross's seminar (unfortunately as a 19 year old student I cannot
afford it) but from what I've read, they do get actual practice during their
time there.

Ross teaches "Speed Seduction»".  You teach your method, and he teaches
his.  Both have worked very well for me, and I have thought VERY highly of
both of you.  However, I think with each person, there is always some
defects in any method and there will always be.  You have great
openers/routines for clubs - Ross's methods work well for me when I'm trying
to seduce a girl with a good imagination.  I think your focus is pretty
different from his, and you also play on different grounds.

(Commenting on Joseph):
>my pic is in the paper every week

DAMN dude, how do you do that??? Lol
>Let a few guitar picks drop on the table/bar when you pull money out for a
>drink......Have at least one of the wingmen wear an "All Access" backstage
>pass that you made up at KINKO'S- putting a name on it is good cuz it gives
>the girl a chance to connect with wingman and he can set up a mystique for
>you "I don't know, maybe if I ask him you can sit with us, but I have to
>ask - he's really tired from the show...."

Nice one ;-D

I was thinking about a good ATTENTION GRABBER.  I have a friend who does
professional photography.  I can probably give him a few pounds, and ask him
to follow me around one night.  Get a 8-10 HB pawn and go around town.  Have
him come to pubs, bars, etc. and take pictures.  That will be SUCH an
attention grabber!! You can even do it with your mates.  Just get a bunch of
guys, dress up casually but smartly (maybe a suit with a polo/shirt/dark
color t-shirt, no ties!).  A lot of flashing (not you, lol, the
photographer!) and you guys just smile.  You can even have it as if this
photographer just walks in and starts taking photos of you.  He will ask you
questions.   You can have one of your wingmen act like an interviewer,
whatever.  You do need a guy who looks like he's a professional (manual
camera, big flash, and one of those waist-straps!!)

Then just walk up alone to the bar for a drink.  See how many girls leave
their groups and come order drinks!!! Haha lol  I'm thinking this would work
VERY well.  Only thing is that you either have to stick with a story with
your wingmen, or be the ONLY one who knows it.

I think this will work.  Why? Because there was a time I was out with
friends, when this professional photographer came up and said "Sorry, but
I'm from xxxx (newspaper) and I'd like to take a photo of you with your
girlfriend (she wasn't, but whatever), is that okay?" I told him fine.  He
took the pic.  ONE picture, that was ALL he took, but this happened in our
school's bar, and I continued chatting up this girl (and at this time she
was already treating me completely different, like "What was THAT all
about??" )  15 minutes or so later, she kissed me (on the lips) and told me
she had a good time. (Before the photographer got over, we weren't even
touching.)  I went to get a drink, when this 9 HB came up next to me and
smiled. She said "Hi." I replied, and thought, whoa she's talking to me. But
guess what?  I doubt she would've spoken to me if it wasn't for the social
"proof" I got (she said "So who are you and why did that photographer take a
picture of you" so I told her I was "Casanova's child" lol)

I'm going to be trying this method of mine sometime again, and I'm hoping to
get A LOT of numbers, have the best looking girls talking to ME! If I do
I'll let you guys know how it goes.... !

Someone said this:
>But it sometimes comes up before then, so what do you do?
>I've had women ask me what I do after I have run a pattern, I tell them
>something, and then I've heard things like, "I thought you might seduce
>women for a living with your descriptive language."
>And I said something like-" No haven't figured out to make a living at it

Haahaa.  Okay you guys want to hear this one.  I was trying to do an
"incredible connection" pattern on this girl when she says "haha, are you
trying to SPEED SEDUCE ME?" :D  I actually wasn't expecting her to say it
and even though I'd reply with something "smooth" like "haha, do you think
I'd ever try to speed seduce you?" or "haha, trying? Don't have to." I
actually just kind of got stuck (I mean COME ON you'd probably do the same
thing... I was SO not expecting this shit).  Lost between words she said to
me, "You're a lovely guy." (lovely as in "nice")

Ross, I didn't know your marketing powers and publicity were so far-fetched,
even up here in Scotland!!! Lol!! : )


Hyper Nova:
>I am finding a combination of AM (advanced macking),
>SS and MM to be rather effective IF used right..  I
>have also read so many posts about how people
>say "My method is better" or "Your method doesn't
>work".  So far in what I've learned is that NO METHOD

Indeed. SS is good, and might be useful -- but consider
my situation here: I'm in a place where most of the
females' first language is not English (well, neither
is the males', but that doesn't matter), so
presuppositions, ambiguity, transderivational search,
etc. etc. doesn't work as well with them. And I don't
speak their native language, at all!

Now, usually native speakers of English have a
considerable advantage here, because some girls here
really go for Caucasians. You can get girls just by
being Caucasians, that is. Well, I am not one :O)   I
look every single bit like them, in fact :O}. And from
1 to 10, I think my looks fall somewhere between 5 and
6 :O).

And clubs here are different from those in the UK or
the US or Japan. I still haven't figured this out
fully: some girls really just go there for dancing,
drinking, and that's it. I don't get it sometimes--you
put on a tank top that shows off the top 50% of your
tits and skirt that shows off 80% of your legs, just
for dancing? What do they want, be seen?

Love Advanced Macking, tho' (no, I haven't bought it, just read the
first 3 "methods"). He he he... love the Boob Touch
thing... I'm such an innocent pervert!  Same setting, situation, anyone?
Suggestion, ideas?


> >People who approach women over and over again, do eventually
> >themselves and almost totally destroy their fears, and at the same time,
> >get
> >experience with REALITY instead of living in their false reality in their
> >heads, which would get disproven in the real world anyway.
> >
> >My Comment:  Ross can't make someone take action if they won't.
>If they take action then and get experience by this action, why do they
>have to bother VISUALIZING when they are too busy DOING?

Why has this debate been going on for so long? There are tons of guys who
sit at home and listen to tapes all the time, running "mental rehearsal,"
but never get out and use the tools of SS. I think that Ross would agree
that this is NOT the best way to go.

Mystery, you said you listened to all the tapes, don't you recall Ross and
Mark constantly saying things like "you have to be willing to fuck up and
make mistakes" and "it's important to test the tools out in the real world
to see what works." Mark talked about his initial struggles with SS and how
he went out and talked to every woman in earshot. This is very similar to
your newbie mission is it not?

Also, mental rehearsal WORKS. period. Getting your subconscious to work for
you (through visualization, repetition of thought, etc.) is the principle
guides every self-improvement book ever written, sports-performance
therapy, and even things like magick. Don't you think these must be SOMEWHAT

However, I'm in full agreement with you can only become comfortable
approaching woman by desensitizing yourself and approaching women in spite
of the your nervousness. I am in no way a PUA but I am able to make the
first approach better than alot of guys that I know. I'm usually comfortable
and confident after approaching many girls in a short period of time until I
get in the "just don't care" mode. I would imagine that all the "masters"
probably had experienced a lot of real world pain in effort to become
comfortable talking to women. Ross has said that he does not get nervous
anymore, but he has probably done more walk-ups than literally ANYONE ON
PLANET EARTH! As for the larger debate, All things being equal, if two guys
are doing basic training and one of them does mental rehearsal everytime
before going out, visualizing success, this guy will have an advantage over
the guy that does no rehearsal.

Mystery, I'm curious about something. You've been doing the PUA for a while
and have probably done as many approaches as Ross. Why would you still get
nervous? You're MONEY. YOU ARE MYSTERY!!!
>think I will strongly consider running Mystery Method» Basic Training or
>something.  I believe this would be a very valuable course for people.
>Maybe a book called BASIC TRAINING when the student can do the course
>himself ... don't go to chapter 2 till he has approached 12 girls ... that
>sorta thing.  Comments?

Great idea! I personally would think this would be a tremendous benefit for
many guys, including myself. It would be almost like a cookbook for becoming
a PUA. I've always wondered why Ross, who will do anything to help his
students become successful, refuses to give people a specific linear
structure to follow. My guess is that there is way more value when the
person goes out with the tools and "connects the dots" by themselves. Ross,
care to comment?

My Comment:  Riker has put together a linear "flow chart" type of guideline
to SS that has been taught in past seminars and I believe is on video.
>Ok the other day, my buddy lent me his copy of the book...
>How to Pick up Women in the 90s!  Instruction in the art of meeting,
>and seducing women by William Perkins The website is at
>I just started reading it, but I'm curious if anyone has read it or has any

I've read this book. It's ALRIGHT and best. Basically this guy steals word
for word from some of the better books on dating and such (specifically "How
to Succeed with Women" and "How to Make Anyone Fall in Love with You" as
well as some basic NLP rapport stuff) and condenses other people's ideas
into one, THIN book. The other two are WAY more informational. Plus, the
Perkins book is a rip off, like fifteen bucks for less than two hundred
pages. The other two are both cheaper and better. If anyone is considering
buying the
Perkins book, DON'T.

My Comments:  There are at least three books that immediately come to mind
with the name "How to Succeed with Women" but I assume you mean the one by
Ron Louis and David Copeland ( and you
can sign up for their free email newsletter at the website also) and the
other book is by Leil Lowndes (  And, as for
William Perkins, without commenting on the content, $15 for 200 pages is not
a ratio that I would consider a rip off.  There are a lot of products that I
have bought that have no where near 100 pages that cost more than $15.  And
the truth of the matter is, if you get even one really great idea from
something the size is not relevant -- I certainly have read bigger books and
not retained anything really useful.  If you are only looking for
entertainment value and something to read, then just don't buy without
finding out the number of pages first.


>My Comment:  While I happen to be a bit too lazy to put in the effort
> >needed to really get Psychic Influence and/or Mind Power techniques to
> >work, I do believe that they work to some extent.  Some of the people
> >reading this have a lot of experience with this and have gotten
> >excellent results -- I haven't been convinced that the skill level that
> >would be ideal (being that you can go somewhere, apply the techniques
> >usually to someone you don't know who appeals to you, and then the
> >target approaches you and attempts to get you)can be reached by many if
> >any.  But I would be interested to read about the experiences of those
> >reading this.

Not to burst any bubbles, but you can metaphysically "will" her to do things
until your face turns blue, it wont get you anywhere. At best, your
confidence in your ability to "psychically" influence someone MAY lead to
outward body language»/signals that effect people around you in some small
degree. Still, I think it's more of a placebo effect than anything, and
that's if you truly believe you can do it. That, and nobody's ever been able
to show definitive scientific proof it exists. If anyone can prove
different, I'd love to take them to Vegas for "testing" purposes ; ).
My point being, approach someone who appeals to you, then use >actualacting My
Comment:  My friend Max drives a 1986 Corvette (of course, to the women
> he meets it's a "brand new Corvette") and absolutely swears that this car
> has gotten him laid dozens of times over.  [...] I have heard this from
> many other guys about their cars as well.

Just an idea. Could it be that Max (and the others)  lights up like a
Christmas tree whenever he talks about his car, shows her his car, let's her
sit in his car, drives her around in his car? Could it be that it is because
how he feels *about* his car, and showing it off, that his car is an anchor
for Max to go into a beneficial emotional state?

My Comment:  It's really hard to answer this without introducing you to
him -- he's constantly on the hunt and has a very up personality with women
(he does a lot of AFC things, but he also has his own ways for a lot of
things and generally closes his deals very quickly).  The car does, however,
instill an extra confidence in him, no question about it.  But without what
he does, that wouldn't make a difference.


Funny that someone should bring up getting desensitized. I about year back
was doing very well in the art of seduction» - I had a bevy of females that I
called "friends with benefits."  Sure it was nice but it was all lacking in
something. That something being true feelings or love. I could not or would
not for whatever reason fall in love with any of these females. I took a
and decided I would not pursue these types of relationships any longer.  I
waited for a long time for the right woman to come along that I could love
and care for.  She was right underneath my nose the whole time (she was a
close friend, who I liked before but knew she would not give a womanizing
man like myself a chance so I never pursued her).  Well, during this time of
chastity I guess, she noticed the changes I was making and our friendship
grew to be romantic.When I realized I could take this a step further I
reframing things for her, sending her poetry full of imagery and analogies
get her to open up more to me. Which she did. There was always this
underlying issue, however. You see, she had been hurt before and had only
been with one man.  She loved him and they dated for five years and got
engaged. When it came down for them to be married he left her at the alter.
His family forbid him to marry her because of ethnic differences (she is
Greek and he is from Yugoslavia).  Anyways, needless to say, her heart was
broken.  Now she has it in her head that in order for her to be happy she
needs to be with a Greek man. She feels certain that if she is she will
never get hurt like that again for that reason.  I am not Greek, and despite
that we built a relationship. Tons of reframing, opening her up to new
thoughts, etc. was needed to get this going. Sex life is great, she cares
for me and I for her and we get along very well.  She, however, is hesitant
to take it a step further because every time it seems when we appear to be
getting at our closest this Greek thing comes up
and she has doubts.  At times she and I talk about the future but every few
weeks she does a 360 on me and gets afraid and starts having doubts.
Recently we had one such conversation and she broke up with me. Two days
later she called and was unsure if she did the right thing. We decided to
start again and take it slow. I have been playing hard to get. I don't want
to go through this uncertainty thing of hers every two - three weeks...Any
ideas on how I can get past this idea of hers that she needs a Greek man to
be happy? We are almost there (to the point of really love) and then these
doubts come up.  I need to end her doubts permanently. I mean if she did not
think it would work because I was an asshole, AFC, or we did not get along,
I could
understand - this Greek thing, though, I can't and I need to get it out of
head.  Any ideas?


>great but I don't come across strippers much and clubs are in St. Louis...
>not an hour south of it here where I am.  How about some info on doing
>Wal-Mart PU's and grocery stores... coffee shops like in Barnes and Noble..

I can't tell you much about grocery stores and Wal-Mart but I really
love coffee shops for PU's, especially in mid-afternoon when they're
swarming with college cuties. With groups, I can usually leverage the
existing conversation for an opener. If they're alone, I usually ask
a question about the book they're reading, unless something else just
leaps at me, like jewelry. From there, a lot of club PU attraction
techniques work the same. Sure, some of them are focused on studying
because they have an exam tomorrow, but there are plenty of girls who
are open to an excuse for a study break.
>All solved with newbie training missions.

You Manny the Martian? Do the drills and get the skills.
>Listening to a hypnotist for a day or doing basic training for a day
>which will give you more of a leg up?  Gentlemen ... YOU DECIDE.

Interesting strawman. You know and understand memetics and how they
spread - why would you bother neglecting such stuff in your logic?
>If a person WANTS to get girls but is not willing to do BASIC TRAINING
>and instead opts for the EASY ROUTE of getting hypnotized (which is no

By extension...if a person WANTS to get to Los Angeles from Toronto but
is not willing to walk all the way with a 40 pound pack on their back
and instead opts for the EASY ROUTE of riding on an airplane then he's
a COWARD...or is the guy who takes the EASY ROUTE merely MORE EFFICIENT?
>>about state control and that is about mental rehearsal and THEN going
>>out and acting.
>There's no TIME for mental rehearsal when you are in basic training.  You
>are too busy approaching REAL WOMEN.

Twenty four hours a day? Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll pass.
>My Comment:  I think that there is some misinformation here.  Ross is
>constantly telling his students that if they don't go out there and use the
>tools he gives them, there's nothing he can do about that.  He is just as
>passionate about having his students take action as you are.

You're missing the point, Clifford. Everything is black and white to
Mystery. If he has to distort somebody's position through strawmen
and intellectual dishonesty, that's preferable to finding the common
ground.  Anyone who has listened to Ross' BHSC knows about doing the
drills, getting the experience, learning the lesson, and moving on.
Mystery avoids that inconvenient fact. Draw your own conclusions.
>>I'm not "denying" anything. I'm simply saying the SS list is about
>>discussing SS.  If we open it to peripheral things like general NLP
>>discussions, cologne choices, dressing right, etc. there will be no
>>end of chatter about things that don't concern SS.
>Why not limit to HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS?  Isn't that the POINT of SS?

I think there are dozens (hundreds?) of lists and groups discussing
HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS. I think it would be simple to join one of those
lists, or start your own list as Clifford has done, if you want to
discuss general pick up, or the Mystery method», or whatever your
little heart desires. Just like a Porsche mailing list discusses one
make of automobile, the Speed Seduction» list discusses that product.
I don't understand why that's so difficult for someone to understand.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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