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He slightly invaded their personal space
4/13/01 3:23:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time


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>  I've always wondered why Ross, who will do anything to help his
>students become successful, refuses to give people a specific linear
>structure to follow. My guess is that there is way more value when the
>person goes out with the tools and "connects the dots" by themselves. Ross,
>care to comment?

1. What should I do? Provide a step by step map of what to say and
when guaranteed to work with EVERY woman?
There ain't no such thing......what I do is to provide the principles
that allow guys to generate their own patterning, based on the unique
person they are encountering in the real world. The "canned patterns"
are just examples of the kinds of communication that work to move
women powerfully.

2. The guys who come to my seminars are ALREADY too linear, for the
most part. That is the problem.  And linear thinking doesn't work
very well for dealing with complex systems like HUMANS, especially
female humans.

3. I am LOGICAL, if not linear. That is, I teach conceptual
understandings and frameworks THAT MAKE SENSE and act as guides to
how to use the smaller chunked tools.

4. You don't learn new paradigms by being "linear". You grasp the
chunks that make sense and use those to grasp and master the others.
>You're missing the point, Clifford. Everything is black and white to
>Mystery. If he has to distort somebody's position through strawmen
>and intellectual dishonesty, that's preferable to finding the common
>ground.  Anyone who has listened to Ross' BHSC knows about doing the
>drills, getting the experience, learning the lesson, and moving on.
>Mystery avoids that inconvenient fact. Draw your own conclusions.

Totally true. He's arguing ala James Randi. Obviously one of his heroes.


Best place to meet women (This was taken from some rag in Houston):
She was bored. She had nothing to do after work except eat dinner and watch
TV, and the reception was so bad in her apartment that the rabbit ears were
useless. She wanted to do something fun, something artsy and hands-on. And
she wanted to meet other people. A Leisure Learning catalog appeared in her
mailbox, so she signed up for a ceramics class, which met at Foelber
Pottery Gallery & Studio. A wiry John Foelber showed the class how to throw
clay and pinch and shape pieces into handles or boxes or little sculptures.
An assistant showed them how to work on the wheel, the wet, slippery clay
mutating between the fingers. No one said anything about that scene in
Ghost. She made little containers, perfect for ashtrays or cat bowls.
Problem was, she didn't smoke and didn't own a cat. She, non-blond,
gravitated toward the other non-blonds in the room. And together they
wondered why was the class all-female, and almost all twentysomething
professionals and students? And why were most of them blond?


Mr. Happy:
>>Anyway, that pretty much brings us up to speed.
>>Main problems are this: it's now been almost 2
>>months since we originally met, but due to all
>>this shit that's been going on I have only been
>>on *one* date with her.

No.  Granted some people's shit is deeper than
others and a death is some pretty deep shit.  But, even during an evening of
mourning a friend's death, she was willing to call and fuck with you
about how she wanted to come over and have fun with
you instead.  You do realize she wasn't coming over, don't you?  It was a
test, you passed.

The reason you have not been together is she is
giving you excuses. The question I have for you is
this: At what point is she willing to create an
opening in her schedule to grab her chance to be
with you before you withdraw the offer?  People are
busy, yes, but being busy is not a reason for you
to excuse her; it's a reason for you to blow her
off.  After all, when will she stop being busy?
And if all "this shit" is TRULY the reason she has
not seen you in person, then when it clears the
excuses will go away.  Leave it open that she can
call you when it clears.  If she has the time to
talk on the phone, then she has the time to meet in
>>The bitch defenses are down, and I have her

You do?  Dude, she won't meet with you.  She could
be interested, but I'd want her to give me solid
evidence by showing up.
>>but as you can see I am in this weird situation
>>of having spoken to her a LOT on the phone, and
>>in much more intimate circumstances than is
>>normal for the amount I have seen her.

So offer her the choice between ending the phone
conversations or meeting with you.  If she chooses
to end the conversations, let her know, jovially, that you think she is
crazy.  Let her know that it makes no sense that she would pass up that
chance when you both know you get along so well by phone.  Let her know that
although that would not be your choice, "oh well, see ya".


>  I watched Ross' LA seminar
>and it took literally over an hour to get to ONE major point (how the
>dating frame sucked).

Did you watch the ENTIRE seminar? When I first saw that early segment I
thought, "Oh crap, Ross is gonna filibuster for 16 hours! Why is he spending
so much time working on one person?" but by the end I saw that he was able
to refer back to the frame theory throughout the weekend and every time he
mentioned it, the more powerfully it stuck in my head... I've got a thick
skull and appreciate that he harps on certain themes.

And the stuff I ignored cuz I didn't think it was important, came back to
BITE ME IN THE ASS later on. Sure the seminar starts off a little slow, but
there's lots of red meat there. He opens up many loops, goes on meaningful,
almost Proustian, digressions and at the end he closes the loops...
Criticizing 1/16th of a weekend seminar is not the way to go. It really
should be thought of as a hole.


Hopefully this will put an end to Mystery's ill-informed comments about
mental rehearsal vs.basic training, comments which sparked this entirely too
long  heated debate which has already bored most of us to no end and is
exposing the sophomoric tendency to one-up each other by two of our most
respected leaders. A few years ago, a major US University conducted an
experiment with basketball players-

3 groups of equal numbers of college basketball players. Each group had an
initial test to determine level of free-throw skill, to be compared with a
similar test at the end of a three month period.

A group practiced free throws for those 3 months, 2 hours a day

B group imagined practicing free throws only in their mind for those 3
months, 2 hours a day

C group did nothing at all pertaining to basketball for those 3 months (i.e.
the control in the experiment)

A group and B group made roughly the same improvement over-all at making
free throws consistently. B group actually improved slightly MORE than A
group, but it was an insignificant amount. C group did not improve at all,
and actually got a slightly lower score than it had at the beginning of the

Sure, throwing free throws isn't the exactly same thing as seducing people,
but you get the point - Mystery is wrong. Ross is also wrong, for keeping
this tired and useless argument going and not just ignoring him. I'm so
tired of seeing this same damn argument kept alive by IV's and and

(Commenting on Joseph):
>>my pic is in the paper every week
>DAMN dude, how do you do that??? Lol

Being a music critic has it's perks
>Haahaa.  Okay you guys want to hear this one.  I was trying to do an
>"incredible connection" pattern on this girl when she says "haha, are you
>trying to SPEED SEDUCE ME?" :D  I actually wasn't expecting her to say it
>and even though I'd reply with something "smooth" like "haha, do you think
>I'd ever try to speed seduce you?" or "haha, trying? Don't have to." I
>actually just kind of got stuck (I mean COME ON you'd probably do the >same
thing... I was SO not expecting this shit).  Lost between words she said >to
me, "You're a lovely guy." (lovely as in "nice")

Hahahahah! I've been wondering if this ever happens.......Has this ever
happened to anyone else on the list? I am fully expecting some girl to say,
"OK Ross Jeffries.....sure you feel an incredible connection......" to me
one day. I'd really like to ask the SS list this question, but somehow my
membership got erased when the minivend went down a few days ago - even
though I could access the archives, I wasn't getting I
unsubscribed and resubscribed but haven't had a response.

When I bought some of Ross's material, I really researched it - one thing
that proved to me that it must really work is that on Ross's site and in his
introductory tapes, he uses the same kind of NLP that SS utilizes, but in
this frame he was using it to sell SS! So I thought, if he's using it, he
must believe it, so despite the comic book index vulgar headlines, this
stuff must actually work, or at least the inventor thinks it works, which is
pretty damn good.

I mean, if he was trying to sell snake medicine, he wouldn't use NLP in his
promo because he'd be scared of getting caught....but what held me back for
a while is that he was saying he had versions in 14 different languages, had
Playboy interviews, etc. At some point it has to get exposed, right?

Up until reading that post above, I thought I was pretty safe from this
happening because I'm using it primarily in Georgia and Holland

Georgia gets everything last - SS included...we're still waiting on that
shipment of Bon Jovi CD's here.  They just started playing Warrant on the
radio and they're calling it "Brand New Music."

Haha J/K that's a little harsh

And in Holland, English isn't the primary language so using English SS may
even work better - allowing a straighter bullet into the subconscious.......

But a chick heard of SS in Scotland? Fuck! Hopefully she just saw a thingy
of Ross's on a morning talk show and was "kidding" about Speed Seduction»-
I mean, it's one thing to know about it, but for a non-user to recognize a
pattern? I'm not sure I'd even recognize some of the pattern-speech if used
well - I mean some regular talk sounds like pattern-speech. Maybe she was
flirting and didn't really know, just guessing because SS had intrigued
her.....but Incredible Connections is the maybe she
did......anyone else been "busted?"

(Joseph: Commenting on Ross:)
>>get it anal.  Mickey wound up getting drunk one night and slashed his
>>face with a piece of broken glass and  he responded by knocking her
>>out cold.
>And she was one of the better adjusted ones.  Smoked dope EVERY day,
>good old Mickey did, by the way.

I know you're in California, so by dope do you mean heroine or pot?

Cuz I smoke pot every day and I take exception if you're trying to say that
this is somehow a trait of someone who has severe problems or can't handle
themselves - most Americans drink alcohol, cigarettes, take valiums or
coffee every day, all of which 97% of Doctors agree are much more harmful
products. It helps with stress, appetite, etc. and is very relaxing. Not
disagreeing about strippers being sometimes out of control and loserly, but
I know many highly successful people who smoke pot every day and are
extremely in control of their lives. We ALL have an most on
this list I'd say it's probably women, but to a few of your students who
I've seen in photos it's probably FOOD.


> Doc:
> With strippers: I've only been to strip club like twice (well, I'm 19, and
> going to strip clubs really isn't my bag, baby).  So the thing that worked
for me... I
> think it is to show respect yet be  there not for the sexual turn-ons but
for the fun atmosphere, like >you are  just there because you find the idea
of strip clubs and strippers
> fascinating/interesting - whatever.
> Be passive with a stripper, but respect them for what they do, act
> but DON'T overdo it .  And don't be weird.  When I was writing Christmas
> greeting cards, it could've came across as weird if it wasn't for the fact
> that I wasn't from that town, and I didn't have a story to go with it (the
> fact that I was stuck in school, it got really boring, etc.).

Why do you need a story? Fuck, I'm going go buy some Christmas
cards tomorrow! That's beautiful. Now this guy GETS it! He's relaxed, his
eyes aren't rolling back in his head, HE is in control of himself, and he is
making a conscious effort to be different. Be fascinated with the
experience, not the individual. Doc, I'll hang out with you anytime. Let me
know if you ever decide to move to the States!
> PF:
> >great but I don't come across strippers much and clubs are in St.
> >not an hour south of it here where I am.  How about some info on doing
> >Wal-Mart PU's and grocery stores... coffee shops like in Barnes and

Walmart! Don't guess my Dana Buchman pick-up's gonna work there.
Ask her opinion on something or ask her if she can help you find something
Like say "Oh my God, you're perfect.....I have a dilemna maybe you can help
me with.  I have to buy a gift for a friend of a friend and I really need
the advice
of someone I can trust. What kind of dishes/flatware/toasters/coffee makers
do you like?" Then take her over to that aisle, let her pick out something,
compliment her on her excellent taste, and launch your first strike. Women
love to give advice and they will eat up the validation of your approval.
Give it a try. Grocery's you can do the same thing, ask their opinion. Or,
sometimes if my arrival has been timed with some hot chick I'll grab a buggy
and take the
opposing route so that you meet each other on every aisle, picking the same
thing off the shelves that she does...but take more. It's like mirroring. I
did this a
few weeks ago and after three aisles as we were picking off the same stuff,
I pulled out my list, checked HER cart and asked "Where are you going next?"
It was hilarious cause we both took off in the opposite direction racing for
the fucking V-8. I got there first and took every can then tried to make a
getaway but she caught up with me, we laughed and I forked over FOUR cans of
V-8 and she invited me over for Bloody's the next day.
Sometimes being outrageous and doing the unexpected is all you have to
do--they'll fill in the blanks themselves.


Mr. Icerigger:
I've been reading Influence:  Science and Practice by Robert Cialdini.
This book is solid gold.  The chapter on social proof alone is worth the
price of the book.  I know that this isn't an unknown book to the seduction
community - but I thought I'd throw out my recommendation just in case.  : )
>David Shade:
>The Remote Control Egg
>This is the finest in plastic artillery.  Unfortunately it is way
>at a hundred bucks.  Batteries are included, but you will want new ones.
>The transmitter requires an odd little 12 volt battery called the A23.  It
>can be found in the camera section.  The transmitter seems to be easy on
>batteries.  The egg however, burns up batteries quickly.  It requires two
>AAA batteries.  You will want to use Energizer Titanium for greatest
>Use NEW batteries for the egg each outing.  As for the transmitter, just
>carry a spare battery.

LMAO!!!!!  I had a GF a year ago who actually told me she wanted one of
these things.  I ordered one but we broke up while it was being shipped...
however, I did get to use it with the current MLTR.  It was a lot of fun.
Very similar scenario as your first outing.

You're right though, these suckers are expensive.  There are a few different
varieties as well.  The one I got is a clitoral stimulator.  It's a small
little butterfly that wears like a thong.  I did some shopping around and
found a place that has better than average prices. Good Vibrations is the
name of their company.  Here's their page of remote vibrators (mostly corded
remotes, but a few RF wireless remotes.)

Also, there are instructions online on how to make your own remote
controlled toys:


>Now she has it in her head that in order for her to be happy she
>needs to be with a Greek man.

What did she have in her head before she now got it into her head that she
needs to be with a Greek man?
>She feels certain that if she is she will never get hurt like that again
>for that reason.

Bro, despite what she might be telling you, I get the sense that more exists
than THAT reason.  Have you exemplified how excellently commited you are to
following through with your previous obligations?  Have you given her
examples of how members of your family, as far back as you are able to
conveniently remember, have exemplified the stellar family virtue held near
dear by your family of.... sticking to your commitments and carrying them
>She, however, is hesitant to take it a step further because every time it
seems when we appear to be
>getting at our closest this Greek thing comes up and she has doubts.  ...
>We are almost there (to the point of really love) and then these
>doubts come up.

How can you tell that you are almost there?  What about being where you
almost are gives you the sense that you are about to get past being there
and to where you really want to be?
> ... this Greek thing, though, I can't and I need to get it out of her
>head.  Any ideas?

I don't know if you're at the point where you want it out of her head yet.
Have you figured out what marrying a Greek guy will do for her?  Have you
figured out how to do the things that she believes only a Greek guy will do
for her?  In her mind, 'a Greek guy' encompasses a lot of presuppositions
and expectations that she has packed all together and put a single label on.
I think that once you really get an understanding of what she thinks of when
she thinks of 'a Greek guy', you will be well on your way to where you
already think you almost are.


Elvira hey?  I laughed so much at your choice of an alias for me in your
e-list newsletter...but I like it....
>What do I think?  I think that we are probably more alike than we would
like >to admit.  I think we'd all like to have multiple partners while the
partner that >means the most to us should not be permitted or want (!) such
freedom (yes, >there are exceptions and there are people who swing and
accept their mates >with others, but I think that if we are talking about
the general population that >this comment is probably accurate).  So do I
think you are a wicked, wicked >woman?  It would be totally hypocritical of
my to think that and, frankly, as >long as you aren't (currently) in my
stable, I think that's ok!  Of course, if you >were someone I was seeing I
don't want to share you but still want my own >freedom.  The solution?  If
you were seeing me it would be a practical >advantage for you to be
bi-sexual and indulge your additional urges by finding >new recruits for us
to enjoy together!

No, actually, I meant that both parties should be able to enjoy other people
sexually.  In one-on-one relationships, we each have 'friends' that we do
not get sexually involved with....but it is considered bad or inappropriate
to be sexual with some 'friends', as an expression of the true resonance
that happens with some people we meet, that we usually suppress or repress.
This does not mean that we have to live with them or marry just
means that sexual fun is had in some friendships that do not cross over into
one's main relationship.  You know, it's sort of like meeting up with a
friend and having a game of tennis or chess..this is considered OK...but
getting together with a friend (the sex of whom depends on one's sexual
persuasion) to play at sex or explore sexuality within that relationship is
NOT OK...and is considered destructive and a violation of some sacred bond
within ones steady relationship or marriage.  Know what I mean?

I don't think I like the idea of being just another woman in your "stable".
My dear, I am not a horse.....I am a fiercely independent woman who does not
like to be classified in such ways...because I don't see it as respectful
towards me.  I am not just another one....

My Comment:  We have different perspectives -- it is meant as a position of

(Elvira continues) As for becoming bi-sexual...well, it's not who I am
either....would you become bi so that I can have the pleasure of yourself
plus another man in bed?

My Comment:  I never said that what I had in mind was fair, did I?  The
whole comment I made was about how I think we would like to keep our own
options while the other person didn't have those options -- so, by
definition, the hole situation is not one of equal opportunity.
>Actually, from my experience, if the man you were with were truly
fulfilling all >your needs and desires, you probably wouldn't be thinking
about this.  But >then again, it's been so long since I was in a similar
situation I am not sure if >this comment really holds water or if it's the
result of creeping memory loss.

I thought of that actually, that if I was sexually satisfied in my current
relationship, I may not be thinking about others.  I do know this to be true
from experiences I have had with other lovers....particularly one.  He was
the best lover I ever had....had me having enormous multiple orgasms all the
time...I could never get enough of his...oops, I meant him....and I sure
didn't ever consider other guys while in that relationship.....he sure knew
what to do with me and I with him.

This is why I said that I will not dive into this reconciliation too deeply
just yet...I have so much to prioritize...


> >   That is why BASIC TRAINING (newbie missions) is
> >a far superior way of learning over second rate hypnosis/self hypnosis
> >trickery.
>More either/or thinking. In fact, elite forces always use a
>combination of both, MENTAL training as well as physical rehearsal.
>What is this obsession of yours with either/or thinking? It's part
>of your need to view yourself as "heroic" isn't it?  Geez.

Naw, just pushing one side of the argument past even my own reason to
illicit the other side to get more info.  I agree with you of course that
BOTH are good.  Out of this argument, however, came my BASIC TRAINING
teaching method for my book.  I will not speak ONLY of this of course as
mental rehearsal is VERY valuable, too.  I agree that it isn't either or.
However, many people believe mental rehearsal is ENOUGH which we both know
is NOT the case.  I have friends that KNOW the stuff ... by watching me
consistently they have MENTALLY REHEARSED and yet STILL can't do the do.
Remember that this is a mental testing ground so my REAL STANCE is not the
same as the bias in my debates.  Thanks for shooting the shit with me cause
I wanted to work out things and your input has been very valuable.  You
know, after goofing on the computer, I stay away from it a couple days and
I'm in a club and on the way there I actually think about the debate.  It's
my time to ponder both sides.  I'm out to make a PRACTICAL MODEL - in fact,
I try to SIMPLIFY the model as much as possible without losing too much of
the usefulness (alot like MP3 compression).
> >I'm not knocking the PATTERNS within SS, that is great shit.  I knock the
> >'non-linear teaching principles'.  Saying it's non-linear is to merely
> >excuse the fact that it's unorganized.
>Ha ha. As if you understood how to train people and move their minds
>to new understandings of NEW ways of thinking. The mind doesn't learn
>linear; it learns in pieces, leaps and bounds, steps back and steps

A seminar is CEREMONIAL.  Consider that IN THE FIELD TEACHING through
example is far more practical than this ancient form of education.  The
LECTURE concept comes from ANCIENT times (before the city of Alexandria).
It's just a CONSIDERATION - I didn't even NOTICE this until we got into it
here. :)
>And the problem with many guys (engineers, software folks)
>is that they are already WAY TOO LINEAR. But really, I won't argue
>teaching methods with someone who hasn't taught anyone in his whole
>life, as far as I can tell.

I agree about the linear.  Learning the PUA is like learning to drive.  It's
not ALL field work NOR all manual reading.  It's BOTH.
> >Another
> >limitation I feel exists with the teaching principles in SS is that it's
> >still too CEREMONIAL.  The TEACHING CEREMONY of teacher standing up in
> >and students uncomfortably sitting in chairs with desks is ANCIENT.
>Woefully ignorant of what actually goes on. I address this 10 minutes
>out of the gate in the beginning of every seminar, reminding students
>this is NOT a classroom. It only looks like one.

Why must it even LOOK like one?  I challenge the whole STRUCTURE of this
'non' class.  It's not just YOUR method but the method of nearly all
teaching ceremonies.  University, high school, grade school.  Guys have to
get out and practice ... learning new things and practicing them right away
seems reasonable (remember, I have been thinking seriously about doing
seminars lately and this new thought makes me think there are BETTER ways to
take my skillset and copy it accurately into other people's minds so they
similar results.
> I spend a good deal
>of time destroying traditional classroom ideas before I get going on
>anything else.

And then using your AUTHORITY to tell people to put their pens down til you
say otherwise.  You SAY it's not a classroom but unknowingly perpetuate the
classroom FEEL by providing non-verbal cues.  Like when people learn how to
applaud.  They weren't TAUGHT it, they learned through imitation.  Many of
these classroom culture behaviors continue in your NON class.  It's not a
fault of anyone's ... it's built into the behaviors of your students.  It's
just getting feedback to you and your ideal of teaching gets lost when you
feed off the classroom frame of your students.  If you are standing in front
of a bunch of sitting people and they are at tables and you have a marker in
your hand ... THAT is the stereotypical classroom teaching ceremony no
matter how you deny it in front of them.  Again, not a knock just a
consideration and a new realization on my part.
>You really need to stop being so unscientific in your
>evaluation of my trainings. Why...I'd have to say your approach is
>almost MYSTICAL in its lack of empirical verification!

Um ... no.  Note the word ALMOST to back out of needing any evidence to
support the statement.  *shrug*
> >   We now
> >know that the replication of memetic complexes is best done through
> >imitation.
>Amazing how you have bought into memetics as scientific fact; it's
>just another convenient MEME for explaining things!

The MEME meme is a mental model yes.  With evidence to support that the
model fits.  I don't disagree.  When a meme works (when it models reality),
we call it fact.  Yes, I HAVE 'bought' into the model of memetics as much as
you 'bought' Ericsonian NLP.  The word TRANCE is simply too metaphorically
ANALOG for my metaphorically digital mind.
>By the way,
>Richard Brodie, who wrote Virus of the Mind is one of my best
>friends, a neighbor and a HUGE fan of my trainings. He considers me
>to be the best trainer he's ever experienced and the guy has been
>going to seminars for decades! that one, Myssiel.

I'm sure he will agree that the 'SEMINAR CEREMONY' TOO is a meme.  It's sad
to note that you have failed to understand his life's work.
> >You discuss the basics and immediately TRY THEM OUT (that is what
> >is cool in a club setting
>Ha ha ha ha. Man, have you got alot to learn about teaching others to

I guess so.  *shrug*
>"The basics" only work if what you are teaching is BASICALLY
>what they already know. If you are teaching an ENTIRELY NEW AND
>DIFFERENT WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THE ISSUE, you need a lot >more than "basic

Your logic has really begun to boggle me.  *shrug*  I am working on
finishing THREE BOOKS.  The first is called "Mystery Method» BASIC TRAINING."
This deals with gaining experience (knocking on more doors consistently -
club work), AA, the anatomy of the PU, simple openers, basic neg theory,
concise character conveying, etc.  The second is called, "Mystery Method»
ADVANCED FIELD TACTICS" and deals with many more specific field tactics like
group theory, hoop theory, peacocking tactics, more specific routines, etc.
Finally, the third installment is called "Mystery Method» SPECIAL OPS" and
deals with VERY specific scenarios: from subway approaches, the "choose
gino" gambit to ALL the stripper rules ... even how to pick up bartenders
and shooter girls and gogo dancers.  And when this is all done ... because I
am quite aware that refinement is never-ending, each book will have a
VERSION # so if I ever DO decide to UPDATE things, I will.  I'm about making
the most accurate model that I can while still keeping it simple and
practical for in field use (unlike RAY's version of reality)  That way I
don't get bogged down by the notion that once something is written it is
biblically unalterable.  Where SS fails is where I pick up the pieces.
> >  I watched Ross' LA seminar
> >and it took literally over an hour to get to ONE major point (how the
> >dating frame sucked).
>That is the only point YOU saw. I can assure you, alot of
>points were also being built in.

Um ... no.  Plain and simply no.
> >My Comment:  Without going into great detail, I think you vastly
> >the value and quality of Ross's seminars.  I think if you had actually
> >attended one you would have a completely different viewpoint -- watching
> >video gives you an idea but it's similar (to use one of your analogies)
> >thinking about picking up a chick and actually going up to one and
> >to her.

Uh ... no.  The camera picked up pretty much all the sound and sights as if
I WERE the camera.  This argument doesn't fly, bro.  Thing is, I'm not out
break people into two camps like back in the STEELE days.  I HOPE you know
that to me this argument is merely academic.  I argue to TEST theories and
have them break apart.  For instance, my thoughts of JUST having EXPERIENCE
and no VISUALIZATION fell apart because of this debate.  BOTH are needed.  I
learned that nightclub work is actually PRACTICE.  Most of my relationships
came from outside the club but most of my experience came from inside the
club.  So when Ross says he doesn't like clubs is because he doesn't like
the girls (the rewards).  For me, the club rewards me with KNOWLEDGE (so
many approaches in such little time) so that when I chance upon a beauty
somewhere I have the skillset honed to a razor-sharp edge.  THAT is basic
training put to use.

My Comment:  I still think you would have a different opinion if you had
attended a seminar.  Here your comments are based on your having experienced
only one side of the argument (seeing videos) so by definition you haven't
seen both sides.  As well, after spending the day in the seminar, most of
the attendees go out to clubs and practice what they learned -- often the
next day Ross will then ask what happened and go over the experiences.
>His seminars kick ass and have made a tremendous difference in
> >many, many guys lives.

I'm out to make things BETTER.  That doesn't mean Ross is not HELPFUL.  I
just don't believe in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality.  We
can ALWAYS 'build a better mousetrap' and MM is that very new technology.
And let's not debate this with MORE axioms and sound bites.  What would I do
to make SS BETTER?  More in field training for one.  So MM has that.  More
discussion on PU anatomy.  MM has that.  More discussion on complex social
maneuvering (target with ug, or target with 2 girls, or target with 5 guys,
etc).  SS doesn't cover PRECISE scenarios so MM does.  I'm not out to split
things into TWO: just to make our models BETTER.  If I'm off base on
anything, take me out with you and let's compare in field experience.  And
let's keep this both fun and not turn any of this into ad homonym character
attacks.  I respect Ross a great deal.  I've read many of his thoughts, I've
heard his voice and seen his face - alot.  The illusion of knowing him is
pretty good thanks to
all this technology - so if we have a disagreement it is understandable that
he take things personally.  So ... with all this in mind ... I bow to Ross
and say Sorry.  Sorry for hurting your feelings.  Like the man I am, I'm
willing to admit that I take things too far for the benefit of learning new
>>He also teaches that there is no substitute for
> >experience and for actually going out there and tripping on your dick.

Then why not INTEGRATE BOTH?  Why the need for a SEMINAR and not a WORKSHOP?
Because it's what you are USED to?
>Mystery wouldn't know; he's never been, even though over a year ago
>I offered to him to come as my guest. With his new, obnoxious and
>radically ignorant attitude, the offer is withdrawn.

Now now brown cow.  Um, ok. *shrug*  I have no excuse for not going except
for not having the motivation after seeing your tapes, man.  It's geared to
newbies.  Look at your audience, bro.  What I've learned is that newbies
need help too and that is why this discussion has spurred me to write MM
BASIC TRAINING which was a cool distinction.  SS doesn't fit my mental
model.  Patterns are fun stories to tell but are really simple 1:1 routines.
all pretty lightweight to me compared to what I use - I just don't have a
NEED to take an organized model (an actual FORMAT or framework) and replace
it with a crude hodgepodge of ideas.  SS is a model.  YES it works.  MM is a
model, too.  It works, too I assure you.  I SEE the flaws in SS because as a
guy who KNOWS the field, I KNOW the limitations of SS.  There are however a
good many ideas that you speak of.  They can be taught in 30 minutes though
if you weren't to spoon feed it as it ALL your students were phobics.  Why
teach a NON-class with a speed set by the slowest NON-student. I HAVE seen
the videos but more importantly, I am a PUA.  I KNOW the field.  I work the
field.  I know the parameters of real life fieldwork.  It not like I'm a
hack here.  I'm discussing NEW ideas - from the field.  My THEORIES (and I
claim nothing more than to have THEORIES) seem to have some positive
results. Agreeably teaching these methods to PHOBICS may be a little hard
... my intention is not to teach a model that just gets a guy LAID.  MM is a
model on how to be a pick up artist.  It's about a lifestyle of pussy and
not just getting laid.  When my books are done, I will leave it to people to
decide.  Read MM ... but MM is not INSTEAD of SS because I believe SS fits
PERFECTLY into the A phase of FMAC as SS patterns are a particular TYPE of

To simplify the debate issues (and to get personal clarity on what makes my
future product unique and therefore of value to PUA's the world over):  SS
about teaching newbies via seminars (and the videoing of seminars).  MM is
about getting newbies via basic training field work in clubs.  SS is about
controlling AA (anticipatory anxiety) via creative visualization.  MM is
about controlling AA by FAMILIARIZING the newbie via direct experience.  SS
is about meeting girls in cafe (generally) but also on the street in malls
and restaurants while MM is about getting hardcore experience in clubs and
then meeting girls in cafes, malls, and restaurants.  SS is about 1:1
PATTERNS while MM is about complex maneuvering and social proofing in groups
til you can GET to a 1:1 situation and then use any of a # of personality
routines.  SS is about NLPing your way into her heart while MM is about
demonstrating desired characteristics and having her choose YOU.  SS and MM
I think share CLOSING however.  They both wish to LEAD the girl to close US.
SS is for a man who DABBLES ... MM is for those who wish to create a PUA
LIFESTYLE for themselves.  And, yes, I could completely wrong here.  Anyone
caring to point out THEIR view of the differences may do so: it would be
best if someone like Craig (who has seen ME work a room as well as SS master
RICK whom I have fond jealousy of for the 5 chicks in a whirlpool fuck fest)
to work this out.  And Ross: shame on you for taking my choosing a BIAS in a
debate as a PERSONAL attack.  Shame shame. :)
> >My Comment:  Without going into great detail, I think you vastly
> >the value and quality of Ross's seminars.  I think if you had actually
> >attended one you would have a completely different viewpoint -- watching
> >video gives you an idea but it's similar (to use one of your analogies)
> >thinking about picking up a chick and actually going up to one and
> >to her.  His seminars kick ass and have made a tremendous difference in
> >many, many guys lives.  He also teaches that there is no substitute for
> >experience and for actually going out there and tripping on your dick.
>Mys, even though I have ALWAYS agreed with a lot of what you do and we play
>on similar grounds, I think what Ross offers is something that's TRULY

Agreed.  As far as I know, he's the only one formally offering people info
in this artform.
>I also think that many people have enjoyed his seminars, and
>its worked well for them.

>It's good that you are also offering something
>different, and perhaps some people would prefer a "workshop" kind of thing,
>but others might prefer what Ross as to offer.

Agreed.  It's a choice thing.  I make sure that those learning MM will
understand the place SS has in it so there is congruency because I do not
deny the practical use of many SS concepts.
>Ross teaches "Speed Seduction»".  You teach your method, and he teaches

Yep.  Mine is actually a LONG TERM investment.  It's an investment in a
lifestyle.  I guess SS is about starting to get laid soon after learning
while MM is about laying experiential ground work so when you finally DO
start getting laid it will be by particularly HOT babes.  (I gear it to HB's
and not just B's except for practice).
>Both have worked very well for me, and I have thought VERY highly of
>both of you.  However, I think with each person, there is always some
>defects in any method and there will always be.

Agreed.  Such debates help ME iron these out.  And Ross's passion to FIX my
errors benefits me.  I LOVE a good drama. : )
>You have great
>openers/routines for clubs - Ross's methods work well for me when I'm
>trying to seduce a girl with a good imagination.  I think your focus is
>different from his, and you also play on different grounds.

All very fair comments.  Thanks for the input bud.
>I was thinking about a good ATTENTION GRABBER.  I have a friend who does
>professional photography.  I can probably give him a few pounds, and ask
>to follow me around one night.  Get a 8-10 HB pawn and go around town.
>him come to pubs, bars, etc. and take pictures.  That will be SUCH an
>attention grabber!!

Read my DIGITAL PHOTO ROUTINE!  Do a search.
>You can even do it with your mates.  Just get a bunch of
>guys, dress up casually but smartly (maybe a suit with a polo/shirt/dark
>color t-shirt, no ties!).  A lot of flashing (not you, lol, the
>photographer!) and you guys just smile.  You can even have it as if this
>photographer just walks in and starts taking photos of you.  He will ask
>questions.   You can have one of your wingmen act like an interviewer,
>whatever.  You do need a guy who looks like he's a professional (manual
>camera, big flash, and one of those waist-straps!!)
>Then just walk up alone to the bar for a drink.  See how many girls leave
>their groups and come order drinks!!! Haha lol  I'm thinking this would
>VERY well.  Only thing is that you either have to stick with a story with
>your wingmen, or be the ONLY one who knows it.
>I think this will work.  Why? Because there was a time I was out with
>friends, when this professional photographer came up and said "Sorry, but
>I'm from xxxx (newspaper) and I'd like to take a photo of you with your
>girlfriend (she wasn't, but whatever), is that okay?" I told him fine.  He
>took the pic.  ONE picture, that was ALL he took, but this happened in our
>school's bar, and I continued chatting up this girl (and at this time she
>was already treating me completely different, like "What was THAT all
>about??" )  15 minutes or so later, she kissed me (on the lips) and told me
>she had a good time. (Before the photographer got over, we weren't even
>touching.)  I went to get a drink, when this 9 HB came up next to me and
>smiled. She said "Hi." I replied, and thought, whoa she's talking to me.
>guess what?  I doubt she would've spoken to me if it wasn't for the social
>"proof" I got (she said "So who are you and why did that photographer take
>picture of you" so I told her I was "Casanova's child" lol)

All this is great stuff.  Once you begin getting in the idea of having a cam
and taking pics, all these details blossom.  You highlighted several points
in the digital photo routine.  Someone find my text and post it here for
the boys.  This is great stuff.

Here is one I did this week: I put a book in a hip bag and hid it under my
shirt (the bag on my back).  I then told a girl a SECRET: I told her I was
carrying $40G's in US bills in the bag.  I opened it and she saw the pages
the book which look like bills.  This ROCKED.  It creates a BADBOY image.  I
just down played it and said, "Don't tell anyone cause it could put me in
danger."  Enjoy telling her why you have it ... but remain MYSTERIOUS and
don't give away TOO MUCH INFO haaa.  This was the FIRST time I did this
(although I suggested it months ago) and I think you should only do it on
10's.  Or girls who are REALLY hard to get.  It's not the MONEY that is the
powerful thing so much as the BADBOY image I think.  What do you think?  I
mean, the girl was a 9.5 at LEAST but age 20 so I think this intimidated her
ALOT.  Any thoughts?
>Someone said this:
> >But it sometimes comes up before then, so what do you do?
> >I've had women ask me what I do after I have run a pattern, I tell them
> >something, and then I've heard things like, "I thought you might seduce
> >women for a living with your descriptive language."
> >And I said something like-" No haven't figured out to make a living at it
> >yet......"
>Haahaa.  Okay you guys want to hear this one.  I was trying to do an
>"incredible connection" pattern on this girl when she says "haha, are you
>trying to SPEED SEDUCE ME?" :D  I actually wasn't expecting her to say it
>and even though I'd reply with something "smooth" like "haha, do you think
>I'd ever try to speed seduce you?" or "haha, trying? Don't have to." I
>actually just kind of got stuck (I mean COME ON you'd probably do the same
>thing... I was SO not expecting this shit).  Lost between words she said to
>me, "You're a lovely guy." (lovely as in "nice")
>Ross, I didn't know your marketing powers and publicity were so
>even up here in Scotland!!! Lol!! : )

I would have said, "yes.  Im going to chase you until you catch me."
>Hyper Nova:
> >I am finding a combination of AM (advanced macking),
> >SS and MM to be rather effective IF used right..  I
> >have also read so many posts about how people
> >say "My method is better" or "Your method doesn't
> >work".  So far in what I've learned is that NO METHOD

Big agreement there.  Advanced Macking!  FUCK, I haven't even read any of it
yet!  I have the doc here and I just have to make some time.  I DO however
think that I'm not out to make a PUA BIBLE - I don't want to take all the
methods and build the PERFECT METHOD.  I just want to offer MY IDEAS and let
Ross give HIS.  So if a PUA gets all the information from all of us they
will have the complete picture.  I don't want to REITERATE other people's
ideas if I can help it.  That is why I'm currently so concerned with
figuring out the DIFFERENCES between MM and SS ... and now I'll have to do
this with AM too?  I'm screwed for TIME!!! haaaa.
>Indeed. SS is good, and might be useful -- but consider
>my situation here: I'm in a place where most of the
>females' first language is not English (well, neither
>is the males', but that doesn't matter), so
>presuppositions, ambiguity, transderivational search,
>etc. etc. doesn't work as well with them. And I don't
>speak their native language, at all!
>Now, usually native speakers of English have a
>considerable advantage here, because some girls here
>really go for Caucasians. You can get girls just by
>being Caucasians, that is. Well, I am not one :O)   I
>look every single bit like them, in fact :O}. And from
>1 to 10, I think my looks fall somewhere between 5 and
>6 :O).
>And clubs here are different from those in the UK or
>the US or Japan. I still haven't figured this out
>fully: some girls really just go there for dancing,
>drinking, and that's it.

The PU is the EXCEPTION to the rule.  Where there are WOMEN, there are
OPPORTUNITIES to get them clear and simple.  They don't have to GO THERE for
MEN ... you just have to CAPTURE THEM while they are THERE.
> > >People who approach women over and over again, do eventually
> > >themselves and almost totally destroy their fears, and at the same
> > >get
> > >experience with REALITY instead of living in their false reality in
> > >heads, which would get disproven in the real world anyway.
> > >
> > >My Comment:  Ross can't make someone take action if they won't.

He says he can.

My Comment:  Where did you get that from?  If someone won't make an
approach, that's their decision made outside the seminar environment and,
unless Ross is on a special field trip with the guy where he can kick his
butt, no one can force someone to do something if they just won't do it.
> >If they take action then and get experience by this action, why do they
> >even
> >have to bother VISUALIZING when they are too busy DOING?
>Why has this debate been going on for so long? There are tons of guys who
>sit at home and listen to tapes all the time, running "mental rehearsal,"
>but never get out and use the tools of SS. I think that Ross would agree
>that this is NOT the best way to go.
>Mystery, you said you listened to all the tapes, don't you recall Ross and
>Mark constantly saying things like "you have to be willing to fuck up and
>make mistakes" and "it's important to test the tools out in the real world
>to see what works." Mark talked about his initial struggles with SS and how
>he went out and talked to every woman in earshot. This is very similar to
>your newbie mission is it not?

Yep.  They talk about going out but you KNOW many of these guys can't do it.
They need HELP while IN the field.  If the field is only cafes they won't
have the momentum to get FAMILIAR with HB's thereby lowering AA.
>Also, mental rehearsal WORKS. period. Getting your subconscious to work for
>you (through visualization, repetition of thought, etc.) is the principle
>guides every self-improvement book ever written, sports-performance
>therapy, and even things like magick. Don't you think these must be
>SOMEWHAT beneficial?

Yes I do.  BOTH are required.
>However, I'm in full agreement with you can only become comfortable
>approaching woman by desensitizing yourself and approaching women in spite
>of the your nervousness. I am in no way a PUA but I am able to make the
>first approach better than alot of guys that I know. I'm usually
>and confident after approaching many girls in a short period of time until
>get in the "just don't care" mode. I would imagine that all the "masters"
>probably had experienced a lot of real world pain in effort to become
>comfortable talking to women.

This is my BASIC TRAINING concept.  That's all it was about - getting
familiar with the AA.  To ME this makes more sense than tricking your brain
in to having false confidence (lowering AA) for a short time while STILL
LACKING competence.
>Ross has said that he does not get nervous
>anymore, but he has probably done more walk-ups than literally ANYONE >ON
PLANET EARTH! As for the larger debate, All things being equal, if >two guys
are doing basic training and one of them does mental rehearsal >every time
before going out, visualizing success, this guy will have an >advantage over
the guy that does no rehearsal.

Agreed.  Mental rehearsal will help, but hypnotizing yourself to not merely
lower the impact of AA but, as Ross claims, to remove AA 100% is totally
unrealistic.  The 3 second rule helps ALOT as does lots of approaches in a
short time (club work) ... that's why I endorse these ideas.  But
yourself to not feel any AA?  Come on!
>Mystery, I'm curious about something. You've been doing the PUA for a
>while and have probably done as many approaches as Ross. Why would you
>still get nervous? You're MONEY. YOU ARE MYSTERY!!!

Haaaa.  I'm SANCHEZ!  I donno man.  Low self esteem?  I have no clue.  Maybe
it's this need for attention and acceptance that keeps me going.  I guess
when it's all said and done, I'm still just a man in clothes entering the
environment as you.  Let's say you and I went to a club (or any public
gathering ... a restaurant or cafe to make everyone happy).  You and I enter
as equals.  No #'s in our pockets to start.  We are given the same time to
play in the field.  What makes us different?  Only our mental models that
produce different behaviors in that time period.  At times this can seem so
intangible because I can't SEE this model and besides, I made this model UP
in my head.  I'm not a MODELER (a guy who role models others only) ... I'm a
MODEL INVENTOR.  So every time I go out my MODEL AND my ego is on the line.
I simply say to myself, "Fuck it, I did this before so I GUESS I can do this
again ... or maybe today it won't happen for me."
> >think I will strongly consider running Mystery Method» Basic Training or
> >something.  I believe this would be a very valuable course for people.
> >Maybe a book called BASIC TRAINING when the student can do the course
> >himself ... don't go to chapter 2 till he has approached 12 girls ...
> >sorta thing.  Comments?

YES EXACTLY.  That is why I broke it into 3 books.  There is no reason to
bother learning my advanced tactics if ya can't even approach girls and say
"Hi" right???  It's good to know I'm building a product people will find
... and PRACTICAL!
>Great idea! I personally would think this would be a tremendous benefit for
>many guys, including myself. It would be almost like a cookbook for
>becoming a PUA.

EXACTLY!  Not just how to get laid but how to get LOTS of OPTIONS for a
>I've always wondered why Ross, who will do anything to help his
>students become successful, refuses to give people a specific linear
>structure to follow.

That is my same skepticism (although not to throw the baby out with the
bathwater ... learn SS!)
>My guess is that there is way more value when the
>person goes out with the tools and "connects the dots" by themselves. Ross,
>care to comment?
>My Comment:  Riker has put together a linear "flow chart" type of guideline
>to SS that has been taught in past seminars and I believe is on video.

Yeah Riker ... he does clubs right?  I've heard great things about him.  It
seems he's heavy into field work.  So many SS'ers haven't approached a dozen
girls in 6 months ... I do this in one day.  Why is this?

My Comment:  Riker is known for his online tactics.  And your generalization
about Ross's students is really off base.  Some of his guys are total
animals!  They approach constantly.
> >Listening to a hypnotist for a day or doing basic training for a day
> >which will give you more of a leg up?  Gentlemen ... YOU DECIDE.
>Interesting strawman. You know and understand memetics and how they
>spread - why would you bother neglecting such stuff in your logic?

The PUA is BEHAVIORAL.  It utilizes MOTOR RESPONSE, the 3 second rule for
instance isn't just an IDEALISM ... it's a MOTOR RESPONSE.  You can't LEARN
to do this by merely READING ABOUT IT ... you have to FAMILIARIZE yourself
by repeatedly DOING IT.
> >If a person WANTS to get girls but is not willing to do BASIC TRAINING
> >and instead opts for the EASY ROUTE of getting hypnotized (which is no
>By extension...if a person WANTS to get to Los Angeles from Toronto but
>is not willing to walk all the way with a 40 pound pack on their back
>and instead opts for the EASY ROUTE of riding on an airplane then he's
>a COWARD...or is the guy who takes the EASY ROUTE merely MORE EFFICIENT?

Your argument falls into a SEMANTIC debate of what we mean by EASY and HARD.
The purpose of basic training is to give the guy competence through
familiarity (experience) thereby breeding confidence.  If the EASY way to
confidence is to SKIP the experience, I agree you will be confident».  You
will of course miss the REAL goal: COMPETENCE, not CONFIDENCE.  To match
your metaphor:  what is easier, hiking to LA from Toronto or DREAMING you
went to LA?  HYPNOSIS is a DREAM ... confidence with no EXPERIENCE and
therefore no SKILL.
> >>about state control and that is about mental rehearsal and THEN going
> >>out and acting.
> >
> >There's no TIME for mental rehearsal when you are in basic training.  You
> >are too busy approaching REAL WOMEN.
>Twenty four hours a day? Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll pass.

I think about what routines I want to use on the way to the field.  I then
do them.  At the end of the evening I think what I did wrong and what
theories worked.  I rework my ideas on the way home.  Not a 24 hour thing.
Sure, since I'm actually writing a book on the subject I personally will
spend more time on the subject until the book is done but I still don't fill
24 hours even with that.  Believe it or not, I think MORE about my career
than I do this hobby.  If I told you want I invented today for my career
you'd shit.  Let's just say this was a very creative day and the document I
completed and sent out will make for a fun summer! : )
> >My Comment:  I think that there is some misinformation here.  Ross is
> >constantly telling his students that if they don't go out there and use
> >the tools he gives them, there's nothing he can do about that.  He is
just as
> >passionate about having his students take action as you are.
> >You're missing the point, Clifford. Everything is black and white to
> > Mystery.

Everything is black in white in Mystery's ARGUMENTS ONLINE.  Not in real
>If he has to distort somebody's position through strawmen
>and intellectual dishonesty, that's preferable to finding the common
>ground.  Anyone who has listened to Ross' BHSC knows about doing the
>drills, getting the experience, learning the lesson, and moving on.

There is no FORMAT to it all.  It lacks a SYSTEM and so I designed that.
It's too NON LINEAR.  It doesn't HAVE to BE. 1) BME (beginning Middle End)
2) FMAC x 12    3) Open Group, Convey, Disarm Obstacles, NEG Target, grab
hoops, go 1:1, connect, lead to close.
>Mystery avoids that inconvenient fact. Draw your own conclusions.
> >>I'm not "denying" anything. I'm simply saying the SS list is about
> >>discussing SS.  If we open it to peripheral things like general NLP
> >>discussions, cologne choices, dressing right, etc. there will be no
> >>end of chatter about things that don't concern SS.
> >
> >Why not limit to HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS?  Isn't that the POINT of SS?
>I think there are dozens (hundreds?) of lists and groups discussing
>HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS. I think it would be simple to join one of those
>lists, or start your own list as Clifford has done, if you want to
>discuss general pick up, or the Mystery method», or whatever your
>little heart desires.

We discuss SS in the Mystery's Lounge if we want - it's not like this
is SO BIG that we have to split it up into tonnes of LISTS. I guess that's
point - but to use the list to keep close to customers for the sake of
income generation is another hill of beans.
>Just like a Porsche mailing list discusses one
>make of automobile, the Speed Seduction» list discusses that product.
>I don't understand why that's so difficult for someone to understand.

I understand - I'm not coming from a MAKING MONEY position.  In my
recommended reading list, I will include SS - Mystery Method» is just ONE
MODEL after all.


I wanted to write to you about this guy I was friends with for 6 months or
 I met this guy at the gym when I was a trainer there. When I first met him
it was a bit weird... He stood pretty close to me. I thought he was gay or
something. Turns out he wasn't.... I think he just had a fucked up
understanding of personal space. He stood close to everybody while talking
to them... not super close but just closer than everybody else you would
usually talk to. He didn't talk that much either but he kept on looking in
your eyes when you talked, even a few moments after you were finished, which
sort of kept you talking. I thought that he was stupid or something as he
took a while to understand what I was saying :-) He wasn't though. His
mother was an alcoholic and his father passed away when he was 5 or so.

 I soon found out this guy attracted women like crazy. He was the friend I
have had who was the best at attracting women. He was 17, 5"10, skinny and
slightly better than average looking. He wasn't doing it on his looks
though. He wasn't one of those typical football jocks or other aggressive
types that usually attract women at that age either. He wasn't especially
funny or intelligent or very-well dressed or anything. One day, I was
talking to a friend of his as he was talking to a girl and his friend said
something along the lines of: "oh boy, there he goes again. This guy talks
to a girl for 2 minutes and she falls in love with him."

    It was true too... I saw it happen many times. Even my girlfriend at the
time (who was 36 and I was 19) spoke to him for 1 minute max and afterwards
she said "That guy seems pretty cool" and I sensed some attraction she had
for him. Even my mother once said he seemed pretty manly!!!! That was fucked
up!!! He told me of one girl in high school that was so crazy about him she
carved his name in her arm with a knife. From seeing how women responded to
this guy, I had little doubt it was true. He was always going from gf to gf.
I saw his gf and an ex and a pic of his former gf and these girls were
pretty damn hot. I saw other girls interact with him and they seemed to like
him. I don't think this guy knew what he was doing at all. I think I know
pretty much what he did now, which I didn't realize before.

For one thing he was very confident... He talked to women often. He had a
very confident walk... pushing his chest out and walked like if he was
walking to a rhythm. And held is head up high. He was a pretty cocky. He
used to create competition in the eyes of his girlfriends and tell them
stories and shit to make them jealous (e.g.: he used to tell his GF's:" I
think your friend has a crush on me","Your friend made a move on me"(which
was probably true), etc). He did not put women on a pedestal at all.  He
used to get pissed at them and show his anger, but not go crazy, though. He
called women on their bullshit all the time. He definitely had social proof
going because of all the girls he hung out with. He also poured some kino on
them. He did something else, too, that I find is not mentioned often in the
seduction community... He TEASED them... all of them, from the Ug's to the
HB's. The way I see it, it's sort of like a neg. Except you are jokingly
reducing the girls self-esteem, or at least you are showing her she doesn't
intimidate you at all. It makes me think of something that I believe
Toecutter said about statements of power a while back on your list... I
think, though, that the major reason why he attracted women was because of
how he used to look at them and also how he slightly invaded their personal
space. I think his pupils dilated but I am not too sure. He looked at
everybody like if he was entranced by them. He kept eye contact for a long
time. Really long. It reminds me of something I remember reading from the
book "How to Make Anyone Fall in Love with You" by Leil Lowndes....

 "Several years ago, I hired a carpenter to put an additional window in my
office. Jerry wasn't terribly good looking, and he certainly was no mental
colossus, but for some inexplicable reason, I found him very attractive.
There was an indefinable, mysterious quality about Jerry. It was unsettling,
primal, sexy.
I didn't permit myself to indulge in my little infatuation, however. Perhaps
I thought seducing the carpenter was neither politically correct nor
otherwise desirable under the circumstances. Or perhaps Jerry's other
qualities weren't emblazoned on my lovemap. However, thoughts of Jerry
filled my fantasies for weeks.
I didn't see him for several years. The, just recently, while working on
this book, I needed shelves to hold my research materials. Naturally, I
called Jerry. He arrived at my doorstep, ten pounds heavier, three years
older, but just as sexy. This time, thanks to my research, five minutes into
our conversation, I realized why he turned me on.
Every time I said something, Jerry's eyes lingered on mine. After I had
finished speaking, even during the silences, his eyes stayed glued on mine.
That quality, I realized, is what I had found so unsettling, so primal, so

 It was pretty much like what is said above. I don't see this guy anymore.
He started flaking on me after a while so I started doing the same thing to
him... saying I'll call him back, etc. and not doing it until he didn't call
me anymore. I think he might of done that too... flaked on the girls... it
would make them feel less important. I am not sure though, but it just
seemed to be in his personality to be a flake. Another thing: I don't know
if this action/saying helped him get women but it was something he did which
I don't see many other people do. He used to talk behind everybody's back. I
mean everybody, even his best friends and all the girls he hung out with. He
must of obviously talked about me too. He used to call them losers and shit.
He said nothing too severe though. Just talked about their bad points and
stuff. He didn't say it in an angry tone, just in a matter-of-fact tone.
Could this have sort of created competition and made girls who heard these
remarks make them try to behave better and be better than the next girl and
impress him??? In a way, it showed he was not impressed by people. It sort
of gives you a standard you have to live up to. It also made me not give a
shit about him because I figured he said stuff about me, too. I don't think
the girls saw it that way though.

 Oh, and another thing. He was upbeat when you saw him but he still
moderately talked about his problems/how his shit was fucked up. He did it
in a way that didn't scare you off though. He did it in a way that you
wanted to help him. Is it possible that this turned on the nurturing need in
women???? Probably...


David K:
>My Comment:  This reads to me like you have the closing in your hand.  I
>would invite her to come over preferably after 10 pm one night.  I think
>would have closed her had you gone that night she worked hard at getting
>you to go get her.  Which reminds me -- being lazy is one of my own
>problems.  Any good ideas out there about curing that issue?

I spent last night with HB Doc after she invited me to her apartment. Her
situation is even more complex than I imagined. 18 months ago she was
engaged to be married, and pregnant. She lost the baby, now cannot have
children, and broke off the engagement (*she* broke it off, not the BF). The
BF, who was not from England, has now gone back to his home country. She
hasn't really had a relationship since then, and basically seems to have
shut herself off from the possibility of another, for good. I know people on
this list are already thinking 'WAY too much baggage, skip it', but I like
her and would like to help her move past it somehow. I haven't closed yet
(just spent a good part of the night lying in her bed with her) and have not
yet decided how to proceed.

Here's a field report. Wednesday I went with a wing to this very upscale
and trendy bar/club - it's difficult to get into, but we're getting to know
the door guys, etc. I have never been to a place that has so many incredible
women on such a regular basis. The main attraction on this occasion was a
group of about 15 swimsuit models who'd just come back from a Sports
Illustrated party. In summary: my wing did well, # closing a couple of them,
and my performance was dire. Despite getting a positive initial reaction
from one HB in particular, who clearly wanted me to talk to her, I was just
totally boring. I think a lot of this can be addressed by me putting some
effort in and learning some of the usual resources (some games/gimmicks
would have gone down a dream on her, I am positive), but there was one issue
I wanted to bring the list's attention to.

While opening is something I am not bad at and improving all the time, I
found this group to be particularly challenging. Because the group was
reasonably large, so uniformly amazing-looking, and fairly well-integrated
(although, as it turned out they knew each other less well than we had
initially thought), we found breaking in to be a problem. I'm fairly sure
80% of this can be put down to simply not being a pussy and biting the
bullet; this was pretty much proven by my wing who did that and came out
well. However, I'd like the list's suggestions on ways of breaking into
large groups of this caliber.


(Commenting on: "Alessi: ...I mean if she did not think it would work
because I was an asshole, AFC, or we did not get along, I could understand -
this Greek
thing, though, I can't and I need to get it out of her head.  Any ideas?"):

Tell her that you've changed your mind about taking it slow, and that
you're breaking up with her, "Because it's obvious you will never
appreciate me for my own ethnicity and will always be hung up on the fact
that I'm not Greek"  And then leave a door open for her.

If she comes back through that door, then you've persuaded her to move past
her ethnic issues.  If she doesn't, then-- in my opinion-- she wasn't going
to, anyway.

Also, please consider that you're now playing with a weak hand:  She
already dumped you, and then returned to set the frame of "taking it slow".
By doing the above advice, you'll be once again restocking the deck in
your favor.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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