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"At first it seemed like a wonderful way to meet women"

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At first it seemed like a wonderful way to meet women
5/28/01 3:05:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time


This weekend Formhandle (host of the website,» and his
wing Dante were here in Montreal and we went out sarging Saturday afternoon
on the streets.  There are several brothers visiting this city during the
summer, and they all have been impressed by the quality and quantity of the
women here.  Sunday we had a dim sum with about 12 guys, including a guest
appearance by David ("the Black Book Guy" that I spoke about here a long
time ago) who has his own unique ideas about meeting, bedding and keeping
women and all agreed that this was an awesome event.  To be repeated again


Here's a site that you might like to visit once again:


What follows is somewhat stream of consciousness.  Recently, I had one of
the most profound seduction insights.  It is a subtle yet significant
distinction for most seducers.  I've been around the SS crowd for a few
years now, and I've met several brothers just starting out on the path
toward being a master seducer, and I've also read many messages by people
just starting out.  Recently, I came to the realization that most people
start out with an "I" focus...i.e. how can I be more seductive?
What can I do to become seductive? How can I seduce her? and especially What
would she find seductive about me?
I find that very often it can be much more beneficial  to have a more
outward focus...or, at least, seek the answers to some different questions
i.e.  What is seductive about her?
What can she do to  be more seductive?
What is seductive about the activity that she is doing?
What is seductive about the place that she is at?

Very often women who enjoy a seduction will make comments (I've noticed this
with many brothers) like "He makes me feel like a woman", "He brings out the
woman in me", "He helps me appreciate my feminine qualities."

How can you help her appreciate herself as a woman.  How can you help to
enjoy and appreciate her seductive powers?

Recently, I shared this insight with my friend Mr. Hanky.  I spoke with him
terms of applying this at each of the levels in Dilts Neurological Criteria
Hierarchy.  If you're not a NLP'er and you don't know those terms it is OK
because I'm explaining everything necessary here to use this concept (those
big words are just a convenient NLP'er shorthand for some of what I'm saying
more explicitly).  I talked about being able to appreciate what is seductive
about the environment that you're in.  Mr. Hanky is a very practical,
results oriented guy who immediately applies this stuff so he instantly
challenged me with an example.  He said "So, if you're in a supermarket
you'd focus on how the market is seductive."  I said absolutely.  I find
supermarkets fascinating because shopping is something
that almost everyone has in common and can connect with.  You can relate in
some way.  Yet, most people think of shopping as a boring chore and walk
mindlessly through a supermarket.  They lack energy and don't appreciate the
wonderful experience it can be.  The supermarket is an amusement park for
the senses.  It is a magicKal place.  It is a place where creativity and
imagination can run wild.  When you get your juices flowing, thinking about
all the possibilities for mmmm, sumptuous recipes.  Anything that you
imagine in your mind can be turned into reality....

What follows is a digression from the above theme.   My current girlfriend
is a health food fanatic who enjoys cooking.  She loves going to different
supermarkets.  On several occasions I've gone along with her and together
shopping becomes a fun adventure and a wonderful way to learn more about
other.  We also do things to make it fun together.  Like for example, we
went to a Stew Leonard's (awesome!!!) and they had a giant display Chiquita
that sang.  Right in the middle of the isle we started dancing together to
the Chiquita banana music.


As an Asian-American woman and an English teacher, I felt the need to
respond to these posts:
>David J.:
>Usually I go to this Thai restaurant every two weeks or
>so and always see this great looking Thai (I assume) waitress.  She
>speaks broken English.  She is always friendly, but then again, she
>is in the service industry.  Last time I was there I asked her
>name - figures it was sooooo hard to understand and repeat  - can't
>really remember it now (my mistake on this one).
>Oh yeah, this is not one-itis - I am currently banging a different
>chick and working another on the side.
>Anyway, I think I must have endeared myself somehow,
>cuz tonight when I went in - I got a bigger than usual smile.  When I
>leave the restaurant, I usually kino her - grab her arm, touch
>her shoulder when I am saying goodbye, etc.  But otherwise, I find it
>extremely hard to be convincing at kino when I am sitting at the table
>and she is standing.  Tonight I tried light conversation with her
>and it FELL DEAD AS A DOORNAIL!  She was managing a tremendous
>feat of carrying alot of dishes after we ate, I just laughed and said
>'you're going to carry all of those?!' - I must have either spoke too
>fast or she didn't understand cuz it seemed to have little effect.
>Another time she was talking in Thai to the other waitress and I
>said 'Hey, no secrets!' in a funny way.  A couple other attempts at
>conversation did not go over well (in my mind).  So....
>How do the other PU experts in the Foreign Language
>Field handle ESL girls?  What should I have done?  What is the next
>move I should make on this one?
>This is going to be a great breakthrough for me.  It will
>help alot in the sarging of other Asian chicks - sort of precedent

Asian or whatever, I think people are individuals and there are going to be
some who are receptive to you and others who won't even look at you. There
are some people--Asian, European, American, etc.--who prefer to be with
people who are from their own culture and sometimes their own race as well.
However, there are those who prefer people who are from a completely
different culture and race. Find out the chick's preference ASAP. From what
you described, though, it seems that she's not interested in dating guys
outside her race and culture.
>My Comment:  I don't have much experience with Asian women, but I have been
>talking to an Asian chick lately (got in touch with her through a sexually
>oriented website and have not met her yet, but we've been talking on the
>phone for about a month - I usually don't do that, but when I could meet
>couldn't and vice versa) and we kept and I noticed that her language is a
>lot more child-like than I have been used to with western women.  When it
>got sexual, which it seemed to have to take its own pace to get to, she was
>very again childlike in her expressions (eg. she told me that she loves to
>suck cock by saying she likes "pacifiers.")  It seems to me that you can
>just  take it abit slow and let your own masculinity carry you with them.
>This seems to have worked quite well with this one for me so far, although,
>like I said, I haven't met her yet.

I would like to make an important distinction. In dealing with an adult
whose level of language proficiency is not fluent, it would seem that their
language is "childlike." But the person may not be childlike in other

There is probably some difficulty in sarging people who are culturally and
linguistically different because the language patterns and social
conventions and expectations may conflict with yours. And if you are
ignorant of theirs, then it's going to be even more difficult. Unless the
woman is very keen on your culture (is very interested in American or
Western culture and wants to learn more) and has basic interpersonal
communication skills in English, I would say forget about it. But the best
thing to do first is to do your homework and find out more about the woman.

Here's an interesting example:
There is an instructor I work with who married a very smart, ambitious, and
beautiful international student from Asia (BTW sexual relationships with
students are frowned upon at my college, but of course there are still those
instructors who use their classrooms as pick-up places and besides it's
difficult to enforce this rule).

I believe this came about because
1) She was very interested in American culture and knew a lot about it. She
was very motivated to become part of mainstream American society. She wasn't
one of those international students who spends all her spare time with other
students who speak her language--she wanted to learn English and to be more
Americanized, and so she spent a lot of her time with a diverse group of

2) Her level of English was very high--what is called "cognitive academic
language proficiency and skills"--she could speak, read and write English at
the college level. However, since he was an English teacher, he was aware of
the gaps in her vocabulary and her lack of familiarity with some expressions
and cultural references.

3) The most important factor, which my colleague did not consider very
seriously I think--she wanted to obtain residency in this country as well as
improve her English to get into a better, more prestigious American
university. And what easier way to do it--marry your college English

So who was sarging whom? I think my colleague got sarged. She did her
homework and got what she wanted out of this deal.

Anyway, no matter where the woman is from or what language she speaks, the
bottom line is to pay attention to her. What is she telling you verbally and
nonverbally? And if you can't understand her and she can't understand you
then why bother?

My Comment:
I wouldn't say that about this woman. She speaks English totally fluently.
It's just that I
found her choice of words to be more innocent or child-like. But she's a
highly intelligent 31 year old woman.

It is hard to describe, but talking about sex was done in such a way as
there was little difference from her describing going for breakfast, for
example. Just all the words had no intensity or passion to them (maybe again
wrong choices of words on my part) -- or maybe they just had no real lust
spurring them on. Again, maybe I am not describing it well, but it was far
from the usual talking dirty with someone.

Linda:  I apologize if I sounded as if I was dissing you--I wasn't, but
since so
many people have the stereotype of Asian women as little girls, I wanted to
make sure that it was clear to others that you meant her language was
childlike and not she.

My Comment:  No, she is not child-like and it was her language I was talking


> I definitely think you can become an alphamale.

Does anyone know about any books, materials or resources on becoming the
Alpha male»? If there is, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.


What the hell is all the fuss about BARTENDERS?!?

It's a common theme throughout "pickup" material, (and from the PUA's that
contribute to your list as well), that EVERY Bartender picks up TONS of
girls, constantly has girls throwing phone numbers at them, have their pick
of any girl they want, blah blah blah.

I don't get it. Bartending is a low skill, barely over minimum wage job.
Unless it's Chippendales or something similar, the male bartenders are
nothing much to look at - just regular guys, or kids (high school/college).

What could possibly be so attractive about a guy, who spends his life
throwing around bottles of booze?


Hypno Bill:
>Look here; it is empirically observable that HUMANS, male and female
>BOTH, respond well to those who SEEM to be sure of themselves.

Of course they do, it all depends on what you are radiating. Hence my theory
of the Natural Leader.
>Humans hate uncertainty. They look to resolve or set aside their own
>doubt and certainty. ANYONE who acts more certain will attract more
>attention, admiration and obedience.

For most folks it is easier to follow then to lead.
>Further, HUMANS, male AND female, have an innate tendency to follow
>the herd and OBEY authority.  Look at the experiments of Stanley

I am glad that you posted this as it is something I had over looked in
support of the anthropological point of view. If in this study 65 percent
obeyed, it begs the question. What is it about human nature which causes
>What we have when we read these over-arching theories about "women
>want this or that" is a lazy way to escape the task of LOOKING AT
>THE INDIVIDUAL PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU.  It's an effort to get an
>over-abiding certainty of being able to reflexively, without thought,
>handle and attract ANY person with a blanket idea. IT IS S-T-U-P-I-D.

But wait, isn't this view contradictory of what you just said? That humans
have a tendency to follow the herd and OBEY authority.
>>This has to do
>>  > with our instincts for survival of the species. I believe that SS
>>  > because it gives a woman strong responses. The SS'er must be a
>>  > because he is able to give her powerful feelings.
>So, she has all these great experiences and that allows her to
>conclude the guy is powerful?  And THEN her survival instinct is
>triggered and THEN she breeds with him?
>Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Geez...

I think we all agree that being able to affect someone powerfully is
naturally interpreted as powerful. I can not imagine a woman saying "wow, he
made me feel wonderful he must be so irresistibly weak."
>>  He has a powerful affect
>>  > on her. Remember in society the powerful men are the ones who know
>>  > They are the ones who make money, who get what they want.
>Uh...then how can unemployed, broke "jerks" attract so many women?
>Contradicts your earlier theory......

It agrees completely with my theory. Humans are complex therefore there are
many ways a person can be powerful.
>>I know it might be beating a dead horse, but I feel as if I have come to a
>>point in my growth where understanding this biology would be very helpful
>>building who I am. More specifically and to the point, I'm curious about
>>genetic factors of primitiveness and cultured-ness.
>It's useless crap. Just watch the unique woman you are dealing with.
>HER unique responses.

Watching the unique person you are dealing with it is useless without a
of behavior to work with. For example, if she responds some way and you have
no idea of what to do. You are up the creek without a paddle.
>what they are USED to doing, in a certain context. It is no more a "test",
>much of the time, than your leg is testing the doctor when he hits
>your knee with that little rubber's an AUTOMATIC

I agree that there is a lot of AUTOMATIC RESPONSE and that agrees with the
anthropological point of view. However, if you were to consider what is the
AUTOMATIC RESPONSE  that would cause a woman to mate you, what would it be?
Now that is the real question.

I like what Barry Farber had to say in "Making People Talk" 1987. His
approach to getting what you want with women is dead on. I have heard you
express ideas similar to his. He says that in the American legal system
you are innocent until proven guilty, with people you are guilty of being
one of them until proven innocent. I interpret this to be the automatic
response. Barry also says that you are a 24 hour a day broadcast station. I
like to broadcast Natural Leader. Hey, it's only natural for you to follow
lead. Zero coercion, no fight, no resistance, just enjoy following.

I believe that the anthropological point of view is another model to use. It
may not cover all aspects of human behavior, nothing can; we just are too
complex. However, adding it to one's collection of seduction models gives us
additional means to look at the unique individual in front of us. More
models of behavior gives us more ability to choose our actions intelligently
and give us more insight. In a sense it comes down to something as simple as


(Commenting on my latest voice personal ad: "If you are looking for a
husband, press 3 now.
If you are looking for a nice guy who will do anything you ask of him, press
3 now.
If you are looking for a sucker to spend all his money on you, press 3 now.
If you are looking for someone who will stare at your chest while he talks
to you, press 3 now.
If, however, you are looking to meet someone attractive who also has a
brain, who will enjoy getting to know you for who you are while sharing a
little intimacy, but who isn't only interested in getting you into bed as
fast as possible, press 1 or 2 now."):

This seems pretty good, Cliff. I'm tempted to try it except that personals
don't seem like a good way to get/meet women. I recently tried a 3 hour
session with the personals (personnels?) and when I was done, it helped
remind me that there is NO easy way out in this world. At first it seemed
like a wonderful way to meet women because there are like 40 messages that
you can respond to. I found out that women don't have to pay, but men do.
That fact alone immediately makes you seem desperate in the woman's eyes.
Also I found that
about 75% of the women on these are African-American. That makes you realize
that there are many lonely black women out there, which makes sense, they
don't usually get hit on as much as white women. I'm not racist, but it is
rare for me to find a black woman physically appealing, they are few and far
between IMO.
It seems to me that a vast majority of the women on these personals are
either desperate themselves, being either old or ugly, or are just playing
around with men as there is no cost to them. Sure, I know that sometimes you
can get a winner, but it seems like too much effort is used up in the
process, like getting women's emails and not getting an email back, etc. Not
to mention the money spent on the phone service. The last thing reason to
not use the personals, is that most of the women on there live about an
hour's drive away. This may vary from brother to brother, depending on how
close you live to a big city, but I'm not interested in commuting that far,
unless I'm definitely going to get laid.
So that is why I choose not to use the personals.  I would rather sharpen my
skills the hard way in the club scene. I'm curious though, if there are any
guys who have had successes with using the personals.

My Comment:  The voice personals (such as Telepersonals) are similar to any
other place you may go to meet someone.  You always have to filter.  But I
have had tremendous success and great experiences (among plenty of wastes of
time, for sure) using these lines.  I have met some absolutely spectacular
women.  My theory is that a lot of these women have a hard time meeting
someone who likes them for their personalities as many guys are blinded by
their looks when they meet in person.  Or they only meet jerks who have the
confidence to approach them.  I think they are a great supplement to
whatever else you are doing.


>"I'd rather shift into asking some questions about them, SEEING HOW
>THEY RESPOND, so I can closely evaluate WHO SHE IS.  Mys, if all you are
>doing is talking, how are you learning anything about THEM as people,
>their level of interest in you? Or is that all you need to see..they are
>and they want you? I'm assuming this is fine if you don't want more in a
>roll in the hay......but I find asking the right questions DEEPENS the
rapport and
>attraction inside of them while I get to learn about them based...

This excerpt is from Ross.  So is what he is saying that you don't need
rapport if all
you want is sex?  I mean, doesn't getting deep rapport help to get sex from
women because it sets you apart?  It seems Mystery is more about being the
man.  So, in the world of SS only, if you want only sex, is rapport
necessary? My impression from reading SS posts is that it is,  although I am
sure there are PUA's like Maniac High that never get rapport, but their SS
is minimal.

My Comment:  I can't imagine getting intimate with a woman without have some
rapport.  And I don't think Ross's comment says that you can them without
any rapport.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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