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That’s what I want deep down
5/31/01 5:20:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Steve Piccus:
I appreciate all of the positive feedback we received from the participants
of the seminar that Mark and I presented in Montreal. However I need to
clarify something that I feel is being misinterpreted and is quite unfair to
Mark. While most of the people at the workshop know of his work as a Master
Hypnotist and Trainer, or as Major Mark, what was overlooked (and credited
to me) is Mark's extensive research and work in the areas of
Shamanism/Magic/EnergyWork/Healing. Most of the material I presented in
Montreal was taken from the body of work that Mark and I have been
investigating and collaborating on while putting together a book and seminar
series "How to Create Magic That Really Works". Our approach is to enter
spiritual/healing systems and ferret out useful techniques for positive and
generative change, that we can streamline and teach our students in a clear
and concise manner.

For those of you writing regarding our next workshop in Montreal, and for
more information on the seminar "Exploring Psychic Awareness" in Sedona, AZ,
you should contact Mark and Cassie at cas***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]. They take care of
booking these and any of our other future events, you're interested in.
Also visit the website at

Thanks again to the people that have been writing all the favorable
responses to the seminar in Montreal. Also, Clifford thank you for promoting
my private sessions in the Montreal area.


>I found out that women don't have to pay, but men do. That fact alone
>immediately makes you seem desperate in the woman's eyes.

I never think about it this way. Some sites are free, other
ones require payment from women also!!

If every interesting man will get off personal
sites... they will never improve... But again, my standards
(quality is better than quantity) have been met: and I do not
think I would have met more men in real life. And time can be
lonely in-between, so I go back to these personals sites.. am I a
loser for that?

It seems SS has covered up some basic reality: one cannot escape
loneliness and time has a meaning in an encounter. Not just
speedy time....

And in a club scene, I am frozen shy. So, I am better online,
with words... rather than melting on the spot...


>Of course they do, it all depends on what you are radiating. Hence my
>theory of the Natural Leader.

So, what is a "natural leader"? Someone who is more
dominating? Or maybe someone who is more clever, better at getting
consensus? Natural leader in WHICH culture?

Trying to tie in vague concepts like "natural leader" with
evolutionary biology takes science and reduces it to the level of
cartoon conceptualizing.
>I am glad that you posted this as it is something I had over looked in
>support of the anthropological point of view. If in this study 65 percent
>obeyed, it begs the question. What is it about human nature which causes

You're not looking at the setting of the experiment. The "authority
figure" certainly wasn't what YOU would postulate as an Alpha male».
Yet he had the lab coat, the name tag and was introduced as the
authority figure, so folks in the experiment accepted him as such.

Was he an "alpha male»"? Hardly by any definition given on THIS
list.  But he was obeyed nonetheless. So what does this do to idiotic
socio-biological theories about "dominant alpha males".  Dominance
can be something that occurs through meaning, perceived role, and
>  >What we have when we read these over-arching theories about "women
>  >want this or that" is a lazy way to escape the task of LOOKING AT
>  >THE INDIVIDUAL PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU.  It's an effort to get an
>  >over-abiding certainty of being able to reflexively, without thought,
>  >handle and attract ANY person with a blanket idea. IT IS S-T-U-P-I-D.
>But wait, isn't this view contradictory of what you just said? That humans
>have a tendency to follow the herd and OBEY authority.

See what I said above.
>Watching the unique person you are dealing with it is useless without a
>model of behavior to work with. For example, if she responds some way and
>have no idea of what to do. You are up the creek without a paddle.

I agree. But the "alpha male»" theory is idiotic and gives cartoon
guidelines, if any at all.

My overall objection to the Alpha Male» thing is that it tends to
emphasize AGGRESSION over everything else as being the most important
factor of what makes someone "Alpha", when, in fact, if you look at
our nearest relatives, the great apes,  the "alphas" tend to show
lots of other characteristics, such as sneakiness, being clever,
forming alliances, even politician-like behavior such as kissing and
grooming babies that are NOT their own!

Too many guys already have the dumb idea that they need to be more
PUSH than BRAINS, when in fact, what they need is the ability to
focus on getting into the other person's world, demonstrating
authority ON that world, so they can be an authority IN that world.

The emphasis on dominance is a dangerous one when discussed amongst
those who are simmering with years of frustration about the
perception or reality that women have dominated THEM.

Dominance is often the dumb-guy's default solution when he can't
think of the truly SMART thing to do. It's the first response of the
idiot who can't come up with ways to convince people that complying


Swinggcat (responding to questions from Ronnie):
> 1. What Ss products do you have/recommend?
> 2. How long did it take you before you got the hang of SS?  Were you a
>pua  before you got the materials? Do you ever works bars or clubs?

I think that both the LA99 and the DC seminar tapes are excellent. In my
early SS days (BTW, I have been doing SS for a year and 1/2) I modeled
brother Orion. I use to watch the Magical Connections videos and think to
myself "Orion is the kind of seducer I want to become". I used a similar
soft spoken voice when seducing women. At that time, I thought nothing of
Kamal. I thought that he was not that impressive because he did not use much
pattern language. However, during this time I was getting willy nilly
results. Since I was just reciting patterns to HB's, and not doing much
pacing I was only bedding women who enjoyed being overwhelmed by what I had
to say. However, as time moved on, I realized the genius of what Kamal was
doing. By modeling Kamal, I learned to get deep rapport by asking questions
that evoked their values, beliefs, trance words and  processes for doing
things. I learned to get inside their reality and lead them into my reality
by making up patterns on the fly that incorporated their reality.
>3.Have you worked this on women who are non artsy women who are not
>creative or mental health students but ones that are business/engineer
majors ,
>or less educated and not new age, more blue collar perhaps?

Yes, I was with some other brothers at a B&N the other weekend and sarged a
math professor. Within minutes, she was in one of the most profound trances
have ever seen.
> 4.That was clever how you didn't supplicate when she asked you to walk
>her to her car and then mentioned she would have to drive you to your car.
>Was this on purpose?  What would you have done if you were parked closer to
> her?
> 5.Are there any ss products that have the Rick Yin/yang pattern as well
>as the energy massage pattern? That latter sounds interesting

This is on the methods and masters CDs


Hypno Bill:
>> I definitely think you can become an alphamale.
>Does anyone know about any books, materials or resources on becoming the
>Alpha male»? If there is, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.

I recommend my Natural Leader Hypnosis tape.

Natural Leader is a new tape for the Nice Guy. Imagine being able to have
the personal power needed to calmly call women on their B.S. This tape has
a great reframe that gives you permission to do the things you want to do as
it helps to remove old limits. What would it be like to be able to just
that sense of personal power that women really like in a guy? And you might
be surprised to find that this tape also gives you have permission to
succeed with women to the point where you actually enjoy Ssuccess. All at
the deepest levels of your mind


> >(a guy wanting advice on Asian women)
> >This is going to be a great breakthrough for me.  It will
> >help alot in the sarging of other Asian chicks - sort of precedent
> >setting.

I think you will find that ESL Asian women are of 3 basic varieties (this is
obviously a vast simplification).  There will be those who are very open and
interested in white/American guys.  Those that are very conservative and
won't date out of their race due to personal of family beliefs.  Those that
are mostly interested in status and money and don't care a whole lot about
you per se.  I find the first group to obviously be the most rewarding.
These PU's are typically pretty easy.  Just be very friendly, speak slowly
and smile a lot.  Lots of simple jokes and making her feel comfortable with
you.  I can't overemphasize the smiling and laughing enough.  It's a
universal language.
> Mark:
> One of those many baby steps that might prove helpful: Do you think that
> must believe in SS in order for it to work? I don't think that was in the
> instructions anywhere. I've heard my fellow students slip up and say you
> gotta believe, but I never remember Ross saying that, and for good reason.
> You don't have to believe in a tool. It just works.

You don't have to believe but you do have to be congruent.  Most people have
trouble with having one without the other.


Dr. Love:
> What the hell is all the fuss about BARTENDERS?!?
> It's a common theme throughout "pickup" material, (and from the PUA's that
> contribute to your list as well), that EVERY Bartender picks up TONS of
> girls, constantly has girls throwing phone numbers at them, have their
> of any girl they want, blah blah blah.
> I don't get it. Bartending is a low skill, barely over minimum wage job.
> Unless it's Chippendales or something similar, the male bartenders are
> nothing much to look at - just regular guys, or kids (high
> What could possibly be so attractive about a guy, who spends his life
> throwing around bottles of booze?

Two BIG THINGS HERE: 1) OPPORTUNITY - Bartenders are around tons of women
everyday. This means
- They can get laid (as can most men in jobs where they get to meet lots of
women) by simply playing the numbers.
- This also allows them tons of practice at learning what works and what
- They get to meet women without appearing as if they're coming on to them
(especially in an environment where just about any guy approaching them IS
going to be perceived as a come on). As Adam Sandler's adopted kid says in
"Big Daddy": "meeting them is half the battle..."

2) What I like to call SITUATIONAL STATUS.
- Bartenders ,bouncers, doormen, DJ's and club owners are the guys who get
the majority of the pussy that walks through the doors at clubs and bars. Is
this because they are suave, good-looking, intelligent seduction gods? HELL
Most of them couldn't get laid outside this environment if their life
depended on
it yet in this environment most HB's will choose them over guys who in the
outside world are superior to them in every way (looks, physique, money,
professional status, charm, intelligence, etc.).
They have status in that environment that other guys can't touch. (And in
case you were wondering this means more to women than all the other possible
characteristics put together).

I recently went to Ibiza and was considering dumping my medical career when
I saw how much ass the travel representatives get (now these are guys with
room temperature IQ's, average looks - most of them have flabby stomachs,
basically nothing going for them) and they bang at least 50 chicks a season
(April-October) for the two reasons I give above.

Think about it - chicks go to clubs, bars and holiday resorts to get laid. -
FACT.  Society has told them that they shouldn't reveal this fact to anyone
so they can't go for any guy who makes a play at them - so all your PUA
SS skills and general charm are a complete waste of time in these
So who do they fuck? The guys that aren't making a play at them but are the
center of attention (hey, they organize everything) and have other birds
lining up
to suck their dicks.
> I believe that the anthropological point of view is another model to use.
>It may not cover all aspects of human behavior, nothing can; we just are
>complex. However, adding it to one's collection of seduction models gives
> additional means to look at the unique individual in front of us. More
> models of behavior gives us more ability to choose our actions
> and give us more insight. In a sense it comes down to something as simple

Yes and No.
- I sometimes wonder (especially in seduction) if it isn't better to use the
KISS principle (Keep it simple, shithead!). A lot of guys (and I'm guilty of
this) get into all the seduction information available and find a lot of
contradictions and misinformation (amongst useful guiding principles) and
end up wasting time and effort on stuff that just doesn't work. I can think
of a
few instances where I've blown it by thinking counterproductive things like
"OK, I should do a take-away now" (The Gospel according to Seductionmaster,
Chapter 12 verse 7) where if I'd just kept going things would have panned
out better.

- One simple model that works in the most common situations is probably
than several complex ones that only have some application in certain

- Most of the applications of evolutionary theory to psychology/human
behaviour are pseudoscientific horseshit. (Most of it sells books because it
plausible and has a very-well-thought-out feel to it.) Darwin himself was
tentative about applying his theory in this manner.

- It's probably more important to establish which qualities are quite
certainly attractive to the opposite sex rather than using ideas about our
past to infer what we would expect to be attractive (especially since the
culture in which we find ourselves is able to alter any "evolution-induced
tendencies". Once discovered for certain these qualities can be explained by
evolutionary psych but not vise versa.

- Memes are replicators and this is where their comparison to genes ends
(effectively). Dawkins coined the term to offer an analogy to his
theory. Yes, there are applications for memetics but mostly they are
to deciding whether or not a certain idea (in iconic, indexical or symbolic
format) is likely to be effectively passed on in a given cultural setting.
Memetics can not explain why any one individual is more "attractive" than

Some Random thoughts and questions for anyone on the list:
- Anyone seen "Romance X"? Written by a woman with a woman in a
"psycho-sexual crisis" as the main lead. What did you all think? (And I
don't mean about the
sex scenes.)  A lot of the ideas seemed rather warped but thought-provoking.
e.g..The schoolteacher's speech about how he seduced thousands of women by
"feeding on and corroding beauty with ugliness". Anyone ever met a woman
like the
lead role? (A psychiatrist would probably label her as borderline pd,
aggressive with narcisstic and masochistic tendencies prone to sexual self-
abuse.  The author claimed her character represented an aspect inherent in
all women.)

- Does anyone know a good source for books not available at amazon or
barnesandnoble? I'm particularly looking for many of the books cited in the
references section of "The 48 Laws of Power»" especially a book on Ninon de
Lenclos (the French Courtesan).


(Commenting on DrLove:
I recently finished reading "How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker (and
I've also read his "Language Instinct") and there appear to be a lot of
implications for seduction. If anyone has read either of these books
I'd appreciate any relevant comments.)

In SS we typically talk about phonetic ambiguity (the sky = this guy),
but we also use semantic ambiguity, for example:

* allow this to penetrate (what's 'this'? what's being penetrated?)
* you see what's in front of you ('see' as vision, or 'see' as
* this person (subject of conversation, or you, as you self-point)

In Steven Pinker's -The Language Instinct- he describes a fascinating
experiment that presents a cognitive basis for semantic ambiguity. The
point of this is that I'd had some doubt that the ambiguities really
work as described on the unconscious level, but this presents a working
model and some empirical evidence.

[Excerpt from Pinker:]
At the level of individual words, the brain does a breadth-first
search, entertaining, however briefly, several entries for an ambiguous
word, even unlikely ones. The psycholinguist David Swinney had people
listen to passages like the following:

"Rumor had it that the government building had been plagued with
problems. He was not surprised when he found several spiders, roaches,
and other bugs in the corner of his room."

Did you notice that the last sentence contains an ambiguous word, bug,
which can mean "insect" or "listening device?" Probably not; the second
meaning... makes no sense in context. But psycholinguists are
interested in mental processes that last only milliseconds and need a
more subtle technique than just asking people. When the word "bug" was
read from the tape, a computer flashed a word on a screen, and the
subject had to press a button as soon as he had recognized it. ...

People pressed the button faster when recognizing "ant," which is
related to bug, than when recognizing "sew," which is unrelated.

People were just as primed to recognize the word "spy," which is
related to bug, but not in the sense that was in the passage. It
suggests that the brain knee-jerkingly activates both entries for bug,
even though one of them could be ruled out beforehand.

[Back to Anton's comments:]
I'd add that the mind would also be primed for "hacker" or "computer"
as "bug" can mean "software defect." The brain processes ALL the
meanings of an ambiguous word, bypassing the rational critical factor.
Of course, the famous sargeologist Ross Jeffries established this
process in the field years earlier, but do you think Pinker would give
him some credit? ; )

According to Pinker, further observation suggests that the irrelevant
meanings last less than three syllables. This underscores why we have
to keep reinforcing with a series of ambiguities (in patterns) and
establish them in the unconscious (with anchors).

Bottom line: IT WORKS.

There is a trick that many weight lifters and top athletes know.  And
that is when you are working out, say, on an ab machine, think about your
Think about the muscles that are being worked.  Think about the technique
you should be using.  When I am on the football field doing drills, I am
thinking about the skill I am practicing, so that I improve it rather then
just get
through the drill.

I'm not entirely sure why it works, but it does.  You are better able to
isolate the muscle, better able to practice correct technique, or better
able to improve a skill when visualizing it.  The same can be applied to the

Thinking of it strategically, you always want to be keeping your next step
in mind.  Think about how you are going to get the close, or the kiss, or
lay.  Work towards a goal, rather then just take every comment as it comes.
Doing this reduces your hold on the situation, because you are not ENTIRELY
sure where you're taking the situation to next.

(Commenting on "My latest voice personals ad (pressing "3" on the system I
use advances you to the next ad, pressing "1" requests a live conversation,
and pressing "2"
allows you to leave a message for the person who's ad you've just listened

"If you are looking for a husband, press 3 now.
If you are looking for a nice guy who will do anything you ask of him, press
3 now.
If you are looking for a sucker to spend all his money on you, press 3 now.
If you are looking for someone who will stare at your chest while he talks
to you, press 3 now.
If, however, you are looking to meet someone attractive who also has a
brain, who will enjoy getting to know you for who you are while sharing a
little intimacy, but who isn't only interested in getting you into bed as
fast as possible, press 1 or 2 now."
Hate it.  The parody is good but the wording sucks.  The entire IF
HOWEVER section is crap.  Don't even GO THERE.  Come on, TAKE HER
IMAGINATION SOMEWHERE!  "Close your eyes.  That's right, really, close
them right now.  Imagine that you and I are in a cozy room cuddling on
the couch.  I'm holding you in my arms ... and we've known each other all
our lives and are completely in love with each other.  bla bla bla.
Well ... that's what I want and deep down we know that you feel the same
way.  You know we share the same vision ... right now ... with me.
Maybe we can make this vision real ...

...that sorta crap!  you know the score.


Brother Diamond. (aka future immortal):
I have an interesting reply to a response
from women.  When I do the absolute beauty skit and
they get a hair up their ass and say something
like.."Well, that would take a while to explain" when I
ask her what she's like inside.. you just say..

"Well,  I certainly did not mean to interrupt you if you
were busy right now.  And I hope you'll forgive the
intuition I had about you..."

(Her): "What intuition was that?" (in a snotty way)
(You):  Well, you strike me as a outgoing women who is
also independent...and you definitely strike me as
someone who has that sense of adventure in life that we all
had as kids... but if that's not the case.... than I'll
thank you for your time and move on"...

I've had some success with this one.  Try it out and see
for yourself if they get a hairline up their ass and
talk down to you after you compliment them, throw it
back at them.  Put their bullshit where it needs to be
... in their face...if they don't accept your context to


1. In the realm of SS, what would be a good routine of sarging a gal in the
18-19 year old age bracket?  Would going for incredible connections, values,
etc. be of much use?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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