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You must do this all the time
6/4/01 5:53:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Hey.. This is just a quick note about some fun I've been having with girls
who already have guys.

For a long time I had assumed that girls with boyfriends would be
unapproachable, or at least harder to 'play' with than a girl who was
single. But having spent some time learning how to appeal to this special
category of women and how to completely destroy their boyfriends, I have
learnt that this is completely unfounded! In fact, I would go so far as to
say that girls who already have guys are much easier pickings than those

Reasons why a girl with a boyfriend are easier to seduce? (These apply
mainly to girls who are not SLUTS! This means a girl who is happy in their
relationship, if a girl is a slut, dumb, drug addict, mentally ill or 'the
one' then there's no real great effort needed to seduce them.)

* - Many boyfriend/girlfriend relationships satisfy the stability factor
included in a girl's MOTW (Model Of The World), but not the need to be found
uncontrollably sexy.
After all, a girl KNOWS (or at least assumes, until you make her question
it) that someone they are in a relationship with loves them. But there is a
constant need to re-assert the fact that they are sexy to the rest of the

* - Girls in a relationship are not on the look out. Girls who are not in a
relationship are on a constant look out for a guy that assumes the role of
'perfect partner' or the nearest match. They will test and probe
'potentials' to find out if they truly match her model of a perfect guy.
When girls are in a relationship, they are much less likely to give you a
probing (except after you've seduced them, hehe) and are therefore easier to
gain rapport with than you might think!

- Try it out! After all, once you have rapport you can lead them into sexual
feelings. They don't even have to see it coming, and it's very important for
a GIR (Girl in relationship) that they don't immediately.

* - If the girl in question has been in a relationship for a long time, they
will be used to a certain style of lover (a lover is not just sexual!!).
Everybody loves to experience new things! Give her new things!

* - A GIR has an established pattern for her life and emotions. If you can
find out her patterns you can wield them to your own evil ends. (This
obviously applies also to SG (single girls), but a GIR often has strong
patterns that include a significant other. If you satisfy that pattern, it's
a good start.  If you satisfy it better than her original partner then you
are already destroying her BF.)

* - From my own experience, I have found that most GIR's are much more
susceptible to certain SUBCONSCIOUS meddling than others. What do I mean?
Well, a GIR is working within a model that does not allow
sexual/presexual-emotional connection. So it would be a breach of her ethics
and morals to allow herself to feel the things she will inevitably feel with
you (if you're clever, you'll tie her relational meta-states in with what
do to her, this will strengthen rapport and really fuck with her...). Why
would this be of benefit?

1) Here is the way I have found some women get themselves into somewhat of a
substantial loop.
           *) Woman receives mental or physical stimuli
           *) Woman converts stimuli to good feeling
           *) good feeling conflicts with relationship criteria that demands
that she does not feel good feelings from physical contact with other
           *) Woman rejects feeling and tries to get rid of it.
(We all know that when you consciously try to reject something you just end
up rehearsing it and strengthening that feeling)
           *) Woman rehearses and strengthens the feeling.
           *) Woman believes that because the feeling has not gone away it
must bear some validity, and therefore accepts that she CAN feel good with

(This process works ONLY when the stimuli's intent is ambiguous. The art of
working with GIR's is to make them believe that the feelings they are
getting are because of their interpretation and not because of your original
intent. This way you are not a pig! And they are just as affected. This is
important so that although you are hitting on them they do not reject you
before you can gain good rapport with them in a context outside of their
relationship. After all, they can easily reject you. But they CANNOT reject
themselves! Ambiguous stimuli can be created in many ways, like hidden
touch, incongruence, etc. (more on this later?))

2) to 'break the rules' is an excellent reason to sleep with someone. Isn't

3) If you use the substantial loop effectively you can overload her
system so she just has to stop and question 'If I feel this good around him,
I must not love my BF?'. (boyfriend destruction!! hoorah!) either that or
she'll sleep with you and think about it afterwards...


I took a weekend break away from it all and hopped up to Montreal where I
met up with Clifford and his pal Eric.  Initially I had planned on a fun
evening of sarging but an earlier encounter with a young French Canadian
woman left me a bit exhausted and low on testosterone.  Still, we recharged
with some frau-frau food (and some flirtations in the restaurant... which
netted me one waitress's phone number) then hit a club.
Eric aggressively jumped on a challenging woman who wasn't my cup of tea...
but we scoped out some nearby sofas and soon her friends appeared.  I zeroed
in on her beautiful Vietnamese friend, breaking the ice by greeting her in
her language.  I talked very briefly about my "adventures" when I lived in
Asia and we got onto the subject of food and I mentioned how I enjoy cooking
Vietnamese dishes.  She held out her hands and said "These hands don't know
how to cook."

Well, I took her hands in mine and while gently stroking her palms with
light feather touches started with... "What would it be like if I could
transfer my ability into your hands... in fact... what if, like Mr. Spock...
I could melt with you with only a touch?"  Well, she kept her hands in mine
and her eyes locked on mine as I segued from there into a connection pattern
that incorporated some of Brother's Soul's jazz... then some time distortion
where she could see a time in her future where we were together being
comfortable with a great level of intimacy and then looking back at this
moment as the beginning of it.  I had her pretty tranced out and was ready
to close when Miss Hardazz broke in and dragged her away.

A few minutes later, they returned but now my Vietnamese HB took a seat on
an adjacent chair instead of with me, and she sat with her back to me.  Her
vibe was colder than a freezer full of liquid nitrogen sitting on the outer
regions of the planet Neptune under the shade of a tree in the middle of a
cold January winter.

This isn't the first time I've witnessed this phenomenon and later Clifford
and I were cogitating about how one might abort the intervention of the
''cock blocker'' whose mission in life is to prevent her friend (and you)
from reaching the tantric nirvana of connubial bliss?


I new to the Denver/Boulder Colorado area and looking to hang out with
someone who has my same interests which includes: (1)SS-ing Chicks and (2)
SS-ing chicks and (3) SS-ing chicks.  If you're dedicated to SS then shoot
me an email (Joh***d@Le***.com[ ? ]).


Marian (from private email):
> - Yes, he is truly busy and I am only a concubine. But on the
> other hand, is he still looking for another.... concubine ?
> So, time is scarce, more and more...

My Comment: Personally, I think the solution for both men and women is for
women to have a primary relationship and to have an agreement to bring other
women into
that relationship for fun only.  Men may or may not need variety, but just
think about how a  man would react if you were willing to bring other women
into your bed with him (whether you play with her or not)?  He now has no
reason to seek variety elsewhere and can focus on the real relationship
between you and he.  For men (and many women, too), sex can be completely
impersonal, just like playing a sport.  Women know this and just don't use
it to their advantage. How about that for a thought?


>So, Rule#1 is:
>Don't care what she's thinking.
>That doesn't mean don't try to understand women in general, it means don't
>care what a specific chick is thinking at any specific time.  Just don't
>care.  If you do, you'll be thinking for 2 people while she may very well
>thinking for nobody.  Just let it go.  What you may be thinking about
>on her mind is ONLY what you think is going on, most likely totally wrong
>anyway.  Stop thinking what she's thinking and stop thinking FOR her.
>You'll end up with less worries, have twice the brainpower available for
>and will come across as more direct and powerful.

Hmmm. I get what David is driving at, but I think the way it is
stated could lead to some dumb mistakes.  I don't think he means
don't pay attention to what she is saying; maybe he is saying don't
let what you think SHE wants control YOUR desires/outcum, etc. Keep
YOUR outcum in mind and YOU set the frame of what it is going to be
about and walk if you don't get it.

It also seems that he is saying, "Don't take what a chick says at
face value".  THAT is a smart rule!

Cliff...since you know David...your comments?

My Comment:  I think that David's ideas involve a lot more subtlety than you
get from the report that Formhandle made, and I don't really have the energy
to elaborate extensively.  But essentially, David believes in doing what you
want to do and sticking with your rules.  But it is more than that, because
he does it in a charming yet powerful fashion.  It is easy to see someone
just being obnoxious, doing and wanting things their way -- this doesn't
give justice to his thinking and strategies.  He gets these emails (I don't
know if he reads them or not) but perhaps one day he'll start to make some
comments.  And there are several other "David's" on the subscriber list who
I also hope will one day come out of the shadows and share their brilliance
with us.
>2. Don't forget rule #1
>3. Follow through.  That means, if you say you're going to do something, do
>it.  If you get her worked up over something you are going to do with or to
>her, follow through.  If you don't follow through, women will hate you for
>4. Have control.  Keep control.  You either have control or you don't.  And
>if you have control, you can either keep it or not.  So when you have
>control, keep it.
>5. Make rules and stick to them.  These are YOUR rules.  Things like "I
>tolerate no-shows." or "I'll say something ONCE - I do not repeat myself."
>Don't be afraid to tell chicks your rules as long as you know you won't
>those rules in front of them.  Most guys don't have any rules so you will,
>at minimum, set yourself apart.
>6. Don't break your own rules, ever.  Once you break one of your own rules
>front of a chick, you will begin lose control of your situation with that
>7. Have a structure and stick to it, no matter what.  Be consistent.  This
>also relates to having a set of rules and sticking to it.
>8. When part of your structure doesn't work consistently, analyze that
>figure out why it doesn't work, and repair just that part.  Don't replace
>your whole structure just because one aspect of it doesn't work right.  Fix
>just that part and keep improving your structure over time.
>9. Be aggressive and direct when initially approaching chicks.  Don't beat
>around the bush.  Chicks don't have a clue why you're there - tell them.
>Just don't be crude about it.
>10. Don't lie, but you don't have to give them the whole truth, either.
>Never lie to a chick - it's not worth it.  The truth is always better and
>it's easier to remember.  "The best lie is the truth."
>11. Be decisive and lead.  Chicks need to be lead.  They don't want an
>indecisive pussy.  Don't say, "I don't know... what time is good for you?"
>Say "I'll be there at 6 O'clock.  Meet me then."  Don't be afraid to be a
>little late.  They hate it when you're early and hate you even more when
>you're right on time.  Make them wait a bit.  They will respect you.  If
>they disrespect your time, drop them.

I agree with all of these, except the being late part.  I don't
think anyone hates you if you are on-time; I don't tolerate tardiness
from ANYONE, male, female, stranger or friend. It's just fuggin'

My Comment:  David has a unique time strategy.  He will set up a date and
continually call a woman telling her what he's up to ("I'm just in the
shower, I should be done in 15 minutes," etc.) and while he does this he is
continually putting her off to keep waiting.  But she knows what is
happening, he's in touch. But she's being kept waiting for him!  This sets
up a great anticipation on her part.  David once told me that your most
powerful weapon is curiousity.

Ross (Continuing):
This is good stuff, and I like the way the guy operates out of
general principles, focusing on them instead of small little pieces
of behavior.  Good stuff, I agree, with modifications to rule #1 as
well as #11.
>He said "Wisdom comes from
>experience and experience comes from making mistakes and you can only gain
>lot of experience by making a lot of mistakes.  So go out and make a lot of

I tell this to my students all the time. He's right.
>I've recently discovered the power of asking a person
>to "pretend" as a method of persuasion/seduction.
>What I like most about this method is that it doesn't
>require any patterns, metaphors, stories etc. etc.
>yet produces results. Here are some examples of
>how I used it.

Actually, telling someone to "pretend" is a way of getting them to
step outside their normal reality. It's equivalent to saying, "Just
suppose" or "imagine".
>1. Was with a group (6 of my friends and 4 chicks that we met
>that day, at a hotel we stayed at) at a club. I asked the
>hottest of the 4 girls "See that chick over there (pointing to
>a hottie that was not a part of our group)... I want to
>ask her some questions, because she looks interesting,
>would you come with me.. and pretend that you are
>my girl, because I don't want her to think I'm hitting on her."
>She agreed, so I grabbed her by the hand and brought her
>over so that I could chat up the other chick. While chatting
>other girl, I put my arm around "my" hottie. Next, she starts kissing my
>neck. I'm playing it up too, calling her "honey" and kissing her as well.
>After a few minutes of this, we eject from other girl and
>we start making out. Then grinding, petting, etc. About 45 minutes later,
>her and I are back at the hotel hittin skins. it. Wonder if it would work if you asked this of a chick
you DIDN'T know rather than someone you had already met that day or
>Hypno Bill:
>  >Ross:
>  >>Of course they do, it all depends on what you are radiating. Hence my
>  >>theory of the Natural Leader.
>  >
>  >So, what is a "natural leader"?
>My idea of the Natural Leader is someone who inspires. This person has a
>good sense of his own personal power.

Good; that makes sense. What has that to do with the
socio-biological stuff you were spouting earlier about women
responding to the most powerful guy?  Inspiring has to do with using
a lot more complex structures and processes than the socio-biologists
draw upon, like language, symbology, etc.

My point: HUMANS INSPIRE using much more complex structures than
apes, bulls, and other "examples from nature" that the Alpha Male»
crowd crow about.   Natural leaders are as much leaders because of
their BRAIN power as they are because of the "alpha male»" aggression
>  This person the Natural Leader does
>not give power to others to use against himself. He makes his own decisions
>for his own reasons. Thinking his actions as opposed to reactionary
>responses. Whereas a Jerk (what YOU call the alpha male») may for example
>attempt to gain the advantage by making ridiculous false statements
>that the other person supports those ridiculous false statements.

If you're accusing me of making ridiculous false statements about
what you're advocating, come right out with the accusation.   You're
pretty transparent with the implication, and remember I teach this
stuff!  I'm not misquoting you or making false statements about what
you support or advocate;   I'm simply drawing on what you've said
here. But I'm glad responding to me is requiring you to modify what
you think and what you say. Good, I'm serving a useful function!
>. A jerk may respond by getting angry and call you
>crazy and ask where the hell did you get that idea?

Nice use of quotes; my, we are a clever boy, aren't we?  Apparently
that blank stare you give me in class just means you are practicing
your "Hypno power gaze" and NOT that you are NOT understanding.

>  A Natural Leader will
>see what it is you are trying to do. He will consider an appropriate
>response or may just subtly point out that you are embarrassing yourself.

Ok, call me Natural Leader; you're embarrassing yourself with the
clonky use of quotes.  I give you a C- for execution.
>All without any emotional attachment that one normally has in these cases.
>The Natural Leader has as his theme, THERE IS NO RESISTANCE, THIS IS

Good; that requires intelligence, not push.  Discernment, not shoving.
>If you don't get it, no biggee he moves on to his next prospect, realizing
>that not everyone has brains or the ability to Recognize Something Great.

Translation: he avoids useful feedback?  Hmmm....Remember, context is


> So, Rule#1 is:
> Don't care what she's thinking.
> That doesn't mean don't try to understand women in general, it means don't
> care what a specific chick is thinking at any specific time.  Just don't
> care.  If you do, you'll be thinking for 2 people while she may very well
> thinking for nobody.  Just let it go.  What you may be thinking about
> on her mind is ONLY what you think is going on, most likely totally wrong
> anyway.  Stop thinking what she's thinking and stop thinking FOR her.

That last sentence struck a chord with me and in a tangent reminded me of
something I read a couple weeks back involving installing criteria. Not
eliciting criteria but *installing* criteria. I mean, for you to read
and use it you need to know three things. One, you need to know that the
is using his techniques to their fullest extent. Two, you need to know that
author is someone who has been in the field for a while and has insights
might extend beyond the status quo. And, three, you need to know that they
teach these methods with metaphors, examples or any of a plethora of
Don't you agree? As teaching with examples go, you might have just learned
something in those last few sentences. This method doesn't require any of
usual "What's important to you about..." or what-have-you type of

you just figure out what you want and then some criteria for it, and
Surely with this list, I don't need to give any further examples of how to
accomplish this but you might consider enumerating each criteria (?)..i.e.
you need...Two, you need...

Give me some feedback as to how you guys use it...maybe there are a few that
haven't thought of yet.


I need some help. Just relocated to the regional office in Hong Kong and I
wasted no time in seducing hot college babes using SS.

Problem: while I can make the babes hot and wet (my fingers can testify!)
using patterns and some kino, I have a hard time getting them into bed.
Losing their virignity still seems to be a problem to many Chinese babes.

I finally got a hot babe (20 year old virgin) into bed, but had to stop just
after pushing my cock in for an inch or so coz she was yelling in pain. (I
gave her plenty of foreplay and she was wet like a sponge)

What am I missing? Any advice on how to make love with a virgin (especially
coming the pain of the first time - should I put my cock in slow or what??
Or would hypnosis help?)


> Ross:
> I agree. But the "alpha male»" theory is idiotic and gives cartoon
> guidelines, if any at all.
> My overall objection to the Alpha Male» thing is that it tends to
> emphasize AGGRESSION over everything else as being the most important
> factor of what makes someone "Alpha", when, in fact, if you look at
> our nearest relatives, the great apes,  the "alphas" tend to show
> lots of other characteristics, such as sneakiness, being clever,
> forming alliances, even politician-like behavior such as kissing and
> grooming babies that are NOT their own!

Being the Alpha male» doesn't necessary require brawn or brains in the short
term.  It' s just being the guy people see as in control of the situation.
Over any extended period of time, it's going to require lots of thought and
appropriate aggression.  Aggression is a normal and natural human trait.
being able to channel that aggression appropriately may land you in jail,

The other night I was an alpha male» without even trying because it's become
part of who I am.  To make a long story short, two AFC's in a group of
about 5 of us (one SS'er, 3 AFC's, and myself), brought home two chicks.  I
wasn't going to screw with their game so I just decided to watch for the fun
of it.  Unfortunately the girls immediately started viewing me as the
even though I wasn't even trying (they verbalized this at times).  The main
key was that I wasn't paying much attention to them (just listening to the
situation) and when I did speak, I did so with authority and challenges.
Eventually I had to talk the girls into staying because the guys were so
lame at it ("Please come to the hot tub, please!!!").  When that happened it
was over, because I had asserted my dominance just by taking the girls aside
and talking to them.
After one of them blew me she said, "You must do this all the time"  I
replied, "Why do you say that?"  She said, "Two guys bring home two girls,
but you end up in bed with one of them... That doesn't just happen." This
was pretty perceptive in general, would have made a great PUA...  I said
"Yeah, that saves me a lot of time going out, but next time I want more
variety, not two blonds to choose from."

Anyway if people are interested I can post on more on the alphaness of that
particular situation.
> Too many guys already have the dumb idea that they need to be more
> PUSH than BRAINS, when in fact, what they need is the ability to
> focus on getting into the other person's world, demonstrating
> authority ON that world, so they can be an authority IN that world.

I think for most people who are looking into SS on the net, the brains
department is probably overdeveloped.  Most of the SS'ers I've met have been
short on physical presence and aggression.  In short, I mostly meet SS'ers
who are still AFC's in most of their lives.  It may be that I just typically
meet beginners.  Regardless, there is a place for aggression at some level
almost every relationship.  Anyone who thinks otherwise will get walked on
and end up alone.
> The emphasis on dominance is a dangerous one when discussed amongst
> those who are simmering with years of frustration about the
> perception or reality that women have dominated THEM.

Is that what you were thinking when you put that info about controlling a
girlfriend with the door on your seminar???  That is way across the line
than any of the aggression I use.
> Dominance is often the dumb-guy's default solution when he can't
> think of the truly SMART thing to do. It's the first response of the
> idiot who can't come up with ways to convince people that complying
> Ronnie:
> 1. In the realm of SS, what would be a good routine of sarging a gal in
>the 18-19 year old age bracket?  Would going for incredible connections,
>values, etc. be of much use?

Yes, but use lots of fantasy as well, these girls aren't typically as jaded
(although if you are much older, you may be naturally attracting the most
jaded :-)  As a result they are less likely to be freaked out by/skeptical
of connections and romance.  The flip side is they are likely to be very
concerned about appearances, so make sure you frame that part of the
experience as well.


Brother Diamond.(aka gettin' a foot taller every day I live SS):
I had to reply to an earlier remark someone made to my
absolute beauty skit and its reply if the girl is
being haughty with you. I realize there are many types
of introductions...many paths to the same place between
her hot legs.  hehe  Some like more traditional paths,
less confrontational at the beginning... and some love
to use balls out straight SS methods of intros... I
heard Orion was big into this. I really do prefer
using balls out intros 'cause it lets me start off from
the right place instead of talking about common normal
stuff that is very traditional. Now, I certainly have
nothing against either way and to each his own, I say
go for it.  However your way works for you. But my way
is assaulting the beach with fucking M60s' blasting
away then back up..and relax... calmly head into the
states you want to start using and so on.

My theory is that if you start off that traditionally
in meeting a women than she will automatically
associate you with normal guys who hit on her and try
to pick her up.   You'll also notice that Ross and
Bishop and so on do not do their sarges anything like
that and they are very successful at what they do.
They only get into every day things when they have a
use for it or need more info about the person to use
for patterning, etc.  Everyone has their own take on
it. Mine just happens to be balls out with a kick ass
M60 completely loaded "Can you say...Arnold is back??"


The David's Brunch Rules were really insightful, but I've got questions
about one and criticisms for two of them.
>- If, before meeting them and on the phone, you ask her what she thinks
>best feature is and she says "my eyes", dump her.  She will not be worth

You mean a woman who you haven't seen, either in real life or in a photo?
Why bother with her in the first place?

My Comment:  This only relates to when you have been fixed up with someone
or if you are playing with the telephone personals systems; anywhere where
you only get to speak first with them on the phone.  Why bother?  You
obviously haven't used these, then.

Joseph continues:
>- When you're with a chick, don't be afraid to look at her body,
>the parts you like.  If she asks what you're doing say, "I'm looking at
>body, your tits, your ass."  If she takes offence to that, drop her ASAP
>because it's clear she's not going to fuck you or not be worth fucking.

I disagree. There is plenty of time to look at a girl's body when she's
naked. I guess this is a statement of intent in a way, or showing that you
make no excuses for your desires as a man, but there are more subtle ways.
This would make some women think you're a pervert right off when she may
have been the kind that would bed a guy who snuck in under her radar very

My Comment:  This was reported out of context.  When you do this is very
important, and how.  Both of which involve a more detailed explanation.

Joseph continues:
>- If a chick resists your come-ons or innuendo, you don't want to spend
>more effort on her because she's not going to fuck you without a lot of
>For example, if she asks "Where are we going tonight?", David says "To bed,
>but I'm kind of hungry right now so we're going to get a bite to eat
>If she gets offended, drop her before taking her to eat because it's clear
>she isn't thinking about fucking you.

So why not walk up to her and ask "You wanna fuck?"
This approach will work out of 500 times.
My disagreement with this stuff is that it's designed to see whether or not
the girl is going to fuck you right off the bat. This means that only the
girls who have no problems with going home with a complete stranger will
pass your test. This means that the girl has already decided she will fuck
you just because of your looks and unspoken attitude. My attitude is that
she will fuck me eventually, whether she's attracted to me right off the bat
or not, because she is living in a wasteland of Neanderthals and I have a
talent for opening up her imagination like no one has ever done before. If I
tested them to see if they were going to fuck me before I even cast my
spell, then why should she fuck me? Because she fucks random guys all the
time or because I'm a Greek God? I feel much more comfortable being intimate
with a chick when I can understand why she would go home with me so soon-
i.e.  I seduced her powerfully and subtly and therefore she had no choice.

My Comment:  Again, this was explained significantly out of context and
doesn't really do justice to his ways with quality women.

Joseph continues:
>The biggest thing guys do wrong when doing a PU, the biggest thing that
>fucks them up is caring what the chick is thinking.  Caring what's going on
in her
>head and worrying about whether she thinks this or thinks that or if she
>will do this or that.
>So, Rule#1 is:
>Don't care what she's thinking.

I think that I know where you're coming from here....maybe "Don't WORRY
about what she's thinking" could be more clear advise.
But I think we should make a point for newbies-
This doesn't mean not to listen to her and figure out her probable
situational reality. You have to in order to pace her, elicit values, gather
trance words, etc.
Just don't care what she thinks of you or whether or not she's attracted to
you....and for God's sake listen to her!

That doesn't mean don't try to understand women in general,

My Comment:  No, here you are off.  David does not care almost at all about
what they say, to the point that he's put me on the phone with some women
and let them ramble on and making it clear he wasn't listening to a word
they were saying.  Then he would just pick up the conversation when they
stopped and talk about something else. And while he probably does pace,
elicit values and gather trance words, these are more done without having
ever studied such things -- how he would do things like that evolved
completely on his own and would be different from "textbook" applications.


Any good alternatives to: 1. I don't go to bars & clubs. The chicks are
too young & dumb there. 2. I'm into outdoor  activities as I live in
California, the San Francisco area.  Seems to be a very low percentage of
HB's around also.  Where else to look?  I get lot's of mail from (about
every 3 months. anyway) Great Expectations dating services, etc.  All this
stuff seems to be geared to the very  under 30 crowd.  I'm over 50, but look
early 40's and  in top shape with lots of energy. The older women just don't
do for me, if you know what I mean. I belong to a gym, but they seem to be
getting  younger & younger & dumber & dumber.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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