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We were good to go for that whole weekend
7/4/01 2:35:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time


I have been re-reading David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating» and want to
mention that I highly recommend this one.  David, our own Sisonpyh who has
contributed some outstanding material to this list in the past, is a good
friend that I've known for several years now and who has put together a
terrific manual on having success with women.  Go to if you
haven't already, and don't miss this one.


Anyone buy anything from this site?  Comments encouraged.


I received the following in an email and don't think I got something back
when I responded to it, but if anyone knows anymore, how about the scoop?
"Wouldn't it be bloody fantastic if a 'nice guy' like you could discover how
to ignite all those lusty, wanton emotions and feelings in any woman you
to? Instead of some plain old 'jerk' like me getting all the great looking
women I want and you getting the left overs?
"Bed the Woman of your Dreams" gives you everything you need to create
powerful attraction, lusty seduction and explosive sex, with virtually any
woman you
can spend a little time with.
Learn how to be successful and pick up any women on the Internet.

If you want to pick up women on the Internet then simply send a blank email
to: con***[email protected]***.com[ ? ].  You'll be amazed at what you read and how
quickly you will start to get REAL Contacts ... IT'S AMAZING


I need advice on this:
Someone posted it on the forum. Worthless spam or the
real thing?


This also looks interesting:  Anyone have any
experience with this?


I don't agree that women cannot approach men.  I occasionally have
girls approach me (mainly in clubs).  Personally, it feels great when a girl
actually approaches me.  It conveys the fact they are more aggressive than
most other girls -- I love directness and aggression on the part of girls.
For example, one girl approached me at a club and said to me, "Excuse me.
Do you know that you're gorgeous?  You're incredibly hot..."  I was
and flattered that a girl actually had the courage to say that to me.
Unfortunately, she wasn't physically attractive.  If she had been an HB, I
would have definitely sarged her.  I really wish more women would approach
One thing I have to say is that, in my experience, mostly
good-looking girls approach guys.  90% of the girls who have approached me
have been cute or hot.
Also, I don't know that SS would work well on men.  The reality is:
men and women think differently and have different attraction strategies.
As unfortunate as it may sound, most men require looks (not that I'm not
that looks are SUFFICIENT, only that they are NECESSARY) in a woman in order
for him to be attracted to her, whereas men have other tools at hand to
create attraction.

My Comment: I have a friend who is 6'2", an attorney, good looking who
explained to me that when he was younger, really attractive women used to
approach him frequently and this contributed to giving him his attitude that
women want him (a very useful place to start).  It appears that an element
of success with highly attractive women is the little mentioned fact that
these women are out there being aggressive with men they find desirable.  I
guess this is a bit of a bummer for the rest of us who rarely meet women
this way but take heart -- just because they opened the door doesn't mean
you'll necessarily get anywhere with them without some skills.  My attorney
friend was too young to take advantage of most of these opportunities when
they happened because he was inexperienced back then.


> Any specific ways to slow down my speech?

Try Mirroring.


Adam O.:
If a girl teases you or looks like a tease in any way say something to the
effect of  "So do you always X to Y" e.g. So do you always dress like this
to have guys pay you attention? This shows that you are on to her game and
in effect sends an unconscious signal to her that you are a ladies man and
have dealt with women of her caliber.  This is kinda like the "let's just be
friends" phrase because it's something a woman would typically say to a guy
...and also this phrase, like the "let's just be friends" phrase...assists
you in setting the frame. Remember to use it while seducing a girl if she
looks like or acts like a tease in any way.

Another good phrase I use to set the frame is:
"You know I'm the kind of guy that..." (make yourself out to be a challenge)
Note: don't over do this phrase because it'll sound like your bragging
...and bring it up in a natural way during conversation.

They've both worked for me.
Any comments? Or additions of your own to setting the frame?


Here's a link that I thought people on this list might find fascinating:

Neal Cassady (one of the most famous characters - a real person - in the
Beat generation, was the basis for the character Dean Moriarty in On the
Road) is a great seducer to model.  There are lots of stories from various
Beat literature which describe his seducing women literally in under a
minute, with few words.  And having multiple girlfriends, etc. keeping in
mind this was the 40's and 50's!

There was a recent quote from someone's daughter re: a canned SS line and
her alienation from hearing about "cord(s) of light," etc. and I can
completely see where she is coming from.

This is where intuition comes into play.  Maybe it's just that I'm the
"strong, silent type" but it seems to me, in my life, that there are plenty
of instances re: seduction in which there is already a certain degree of
what is required to close a woman indicated by her non-verbal behavior at
the first instance of talking to the girl.  From there on it's just a
matter of figuring out the factors that are not already there, developing
those and not wasting time on the others.  And of course, not giving a shit.
So what I'm saying is in certain situations, to verbally go on and on about
themes of rapport, or comfort, or even sexual interest with a girl when
they're part of her state anyway is a complete waste, and can even take away
from what was already there.  In other words, we're spending so much time
thinking about ways to verbally develop interest that we're not touching
upon the non-verbals of the ability to detect interest, or ways to
distinguish that the theme of sex, or of comfort, framing as her
opportunity, etc. do not need to be verbally brought up with a particular
girl and are overkill.  Or even, that by not verbally addressing a common
rapport, a common sexual interest, etc. these will be amped up all by
themselves (leaving her to ponder).  One of the greatest pieces of advice my
father gave me was that if a girl you don't know at all comes up to you and
starts conversation, about anything at all, that you can have your way with
her if you so choose.  In other words, the verbal isn't really the true part
of her communication, it's the non-verbal of her approaching you and
initiating contact.

So, specifically: non-verbal seduction.  I'm also very interested in the
"speed" elements of seduction but not about "speed" as in, talk to a girl
over coffee and bang her that same afternoon, rather I'm talking speed as in
noticing a girl in a club / at a party, grabbing her over to dance, dancing
with her, then taking her upstairs and screwing her in the bathroom without
having ever even spoken to her.  There is a lot of power in intrigue,  "the
now," and the implications of behavior, which I feel gets wasted the more
conversation is introduced.  This theme runs counter to the whole notion of
rapport in seduction, I realize, but haven't we all, at least once, not even
talked to a girl yet still enjoyed a great seduction?  What I'm saying is
that somehow, and sometimes, rapport (or maybe I should say establishing
verbal rapport) can take away from seduction - especially if there's too
much (touched upon the LJBF theme that people run into when going too far).
I think women want to be intrigued as well.

I'll offer an example of this and then get off this damn soapbox.  Two weeks
ago for whatever reason, the power had gone off in my apartment building.  I
live in an apartment building that only has singles and studios (and there
are plenty of HB's, but I usually don't "shit where I eat" - another gem of
advice from my father - so I ignore them).  So naturally I left my apartment
to see what was going on, and noticed everyone in the building was in the
hallways (including many HB's).  They were all talking about what was going
on, etc.  I don't even remember how it specifically started, but one of the
HB's was talking about how this has never happened, etc. and I just
my dissatisfaction about it when this other HB who lived upstairs heard me
(she was within earshot).  She complained as well and during a lull in
conversation, as I had left my door open, she noticed my apartment and asked
about looking at it.  I took this as interest, along with other non-verbal
clues like her holding eye contact, allowing almost no personal space when I
then showed her the small kitchen without her pulling back, etc.  Basically
I quickly showed it to her and told her it was messy so she'd better leave.
We couldn't have exchanged more than a few sentences each.  She then said
"Mine is messy too" and I said I didn't believe that anything could be as
messy as mine.  So she said "Well, check it out then."  As soon as I
her into her room I thought what the fuck?  So I closed the door, didn't say
a word, spun her around and started making out with her and grabbing her ass
at the same time.  She was totally into it, off our clothes went, and we
were good to go for that whole weekend.  I don't think I really had any
traditional verbal rapport, but if I did it probably would have blown the
seduction!  Basically, all of our communication (especially regarding
seduction) was non-verbal.  Maybe that's why I've never had a problem with
walkups, because you're already communicating with a girl just by holding
eye contact, looking at her a certain way, etc. and the languaging isn't as
important as the implications of your behavior.

I'm not saying everyone should act such a way after a few words with an HB,
but to pay attention to her, do lots of non-verbal tests, calibrate by not
going any further and/or going shorter than she does with her own verbal
communication, and to take it to the next level with non-verbal
communication if it feels like it's a possibility (it sucks to wonder,
after all).  Isn't seduction really all about the non-verbal dynamics,
communication and behavior (including sex) between you and a woman, and not
necessarily exactly what was said?

I'd like to hear any interesting non-verbal seductions, tests, or leading,
etc. that people have experienced/used.  Or indications like: a girl taking
off her shoes when she's been to your apartment for the first time (good
sign), etc.  Some of these have been brought up before like eye contact, or
that "shock induction" stuff (which I found fascinating).


>Regarding the guy in your last email about being in a strip club, I dated a
>few strippers and this is what I found:
>"How to pick up strippers and exotic dancers."
>I have dated my fair share of these women and the same commonalties
>exist which prove themselves from dancer to dancer all the time. This
>advice comes from dancers themselves and from trial and error personal
>We have all seen them and marvel at their shape and beauty. We also
>desire them for the sake of knowing that we attained something so out
>of reach and unattainable. There is a way.
>When trying to pick up a dancer do not give her any money and do not
>get her to do a nude table dance for you. This is contrary to what you may
>think but these girls see men in one of two categories, customers and non
>customers. You become a customer when you give her your first dollar and
>then it's nearly impossible to convert yourself back into non customer mode
>for she knows that if she goes out with you her revenue from you will stop,
>and she does not want to lose it. By staying a non customer but a friendly
>guy she will not attach dollar sighs to you and she will see she has no
>revenue to lose by spending time with you. Some men spend $1,000's before
>out the girl but by that time she will say "get to know me some more and
>then maybe we will go out" which means spend more money and the date never
>comes. If she does agree to go out with you it will be for shopping at your
>expense or expensive dinner and nothing else. It's fine to buy her a drink
>Also you may think that if you give her money she will like you more. They
>will, but only for your money and it's not what you want. They may also
>think that you will do this to other girls behind her back if she gets into
>relationship with you and she may feel cautious.
>These women also have a concern about meeting you in the bar. That is why
>you need to come across as a decent guy, not a salivating pig in order to
>differentiate yourself all the other guys out there.  Tell them you rarely
>come to these places and you never get dances.

It's all GREAT until this next sentence ...
>Tell her she looks great and you would love to get to know her and see her
>outside of the bar.

Nope.  I disagree.  Do NOT tell her she looks great.  You're dead in the
water if you do.  Getting her outside the bar with you is your mission but
telling her you'd "love to get to know her" conveys that you DON'T yet know
her.  Besides, what's in it for HER to have YOU get to know HER?
>Have a normal conversation with her about her interests.

Nope.  NEVER have a NORMAL conversation!  And guess what?  She doesn't HAVE
any interests!  Talk about YOUR interests and make them FASCINATING ONES:
Supernatural ones are good - they eat this shit UP!
>Dancers are naturally concerned
>about meeting and dating men from the bar because they will think that the
>man will think lowly of them. Counter this by upholding her profession and
>never being critical or disapproving of what she does.

And here we go back to good advice again : )  Don't judge her, just accept
like this lifestyle of her's is normal.  NEVER ask about aspects of a
stripper's lifestyle: she's answered the questions a hundred times too
>Success rate is lower in a strip bar than other places because these woman
>are naturally more defensive there because they think you may only be after
>one thing.

Unless you have a PARTICULAR game plan in which case you can get 15 to 20%
of your attempts.  Live by the STRIPPER RULES while PUing them and you are
on your way.
>But when you do succeed in taking one out the sex is 99% guaranteed because
>they know you desire them physically since you picked them up after seeing
>them almost naked.

Naw, see, playing hard to get and challenging them to figure out whether you
like them or not will make her try to fuck you to find out.  It's easy to
trigger this: talk about how some girls shouldn't be in this business and
then elude that you haven't made your mind up whether she should.
>They know that you want them and feel liberated to open
>themselves sexually to you if you can prove to them that you want them for
>more than just sex. Do what I suggest and you will have an exotic beauty to

The first part of this I highly agree with, of course.  Your OBSERVATIONS
dead on but your tactics have been honed to a greater efficiency over on my
end.  A typical PU lasts a fast 25 minutes and then you will fuck them on
the next day if you can get past phone blurring.


Brother Diamond Giovanni:
I wanted to remark to an email Mystery sent in.  He put
in an intro about "Excuse me, but I would just like to
tell you that you are an absolutely stunning woman..."  I
hate to say it but doesn't work very often

I've tried every way of saying intro's like that and
they don't really have a good/positive response and if
they do then it's not a very good one anyway.  Setting
up the intro with the right context doesn't work for
these intro's either.  It's always been my experience
that women do not like PATTERNING OF ANY TYPE in the
first initial meeting, or introduction routines either for that
matter!!  I've tried all sorts of patterning material
in the beginning of meeting a babe and it just doesn't
work frankly, because for a couple of reasons:

1:  She doesn't care and she doesn't really want to
listen to someone she doesn't really have rapport with
yet so  NO GO..
2:  Patterning is for after the first meeting unless
you're using some unusual patterning material..
curiousity and intrigue are fine and interesting
patterns to run on a babe but they don't care to hear
it in the first meeting you both have together.. it
won't keep their interest and they will either shut
down or ignore you while your running it.

Frankly,  I don't mean to be crude or rude but I don't see
patterning installing states of curiosity and
intrigue.. suspense in the first meeting, it's only
used as "bring back" tools for those states later on.
Because they sure as hell don't do it initially.

My Comment:  You sure are doing it poorly if that's been your
results.  Properly done, you can get a woman tranced out fairly quickly
and aroused under her radar screen in no time.  I doubt that you've
actually been to an SS seminar and seen this performed live.  And women are
totally into the patterning, when done naturally and easily (which takes
some work for most guys until they have the right level of comfort with it).
This is how they dream about being talked to.


>AFC REMINDER: any average frustrated chump can ask a women dozens
>of questions on something she bought. I don't because I
>realized how that method of conversation is AFCish.

It might be AFCish, but, it also might be appropriate and effective.  In
those neutral modes, it's your mannerisms, physical rapport skills, tonal
matching, etc. that have a moment or so to calibrate.  Even drop in embedded
commands or make suggestions, that can be available later, which she will be
totally open to because she DOESN'T know what you're doing.  Hard-and-fast
avoiding small talkish topics can limit the avenues of success.  Everything
starts somewhere.  A cool breeze and slight drops of rain build up to an
intense, steamy tropical storm.  You know when that curious gust of wind
changes your perception about what's to come?  "Intent" is so powerful,
because as things transform in her mind, alot of the things you've said
earlier may begin to fall into a better place.  Which is why I might say
something about shoes, while projecting and communicating on a much deeper
level she's probably not aware of.  To me trance isn't so much of a
controllable system as it is a feeling, which makes sense in analogues.  You
could talk about ANYTHING and seduce a woman, direct language and verbal
tools augment the power and versatility.  She'll get it in the end, and if
things unfold a little unpredictably, it's a measure of your own sense and
magnetic pull that inevitably steers the course.


Stephanie (from private email):
Women do not quickly fuck men they want to respect them.  Plain and simple.
If they have any brains they will make you wait in hopes you will respect
them and want it more in the end.  (You have your seduction newsletter and
seminars and women have books like the Rules - they both teach people to
play games to get what you want.)  Women never seem to know what they want,
so I would suggest trying to educate them and convincing them that what you
want is what they want and their idea if necessary.  We women have done that
for years.  You bring an idea up and then drop it.  Later on you bring it up
again but as though it was THEIR idea and you have them snowed.  Especially
if you tell them something along the lines of them changing your
perspectives and changing your life in some way.  We want to feel as though
we are needed and making a difference.


> she tells me she cares for me, has feelings for
> me, and she is always
> holding my hand, touching, hugging and kissing
> me, and definitely not in the
> way you would behave with a friend.

It is definitely not the way YOU would behave with a friend. Maybe it's her
way of liking her friends. Who knows, perhaps she isn't into sex
(intercourse) at all. Or is she?
> After hundreds of sarges in 10 months of SS, I
> finally find out the sad
> sad truth that I'm a pervert!!!!  I'm crying
> now!!!

Maybe you should. After 100's of sarges (my respect, brother) you still pick
women up with the perverted genetical perfection phrase?? Boooring. Can you
remember a time when you read or heard that women don't like to be judged
by the outside at first, by the genes. That's a nice nose ring you're
but I like your neck more. Silly. Establish a connection. If you want genes,
ask a scientist. It's all about emotions you ugly pervert. I'm so sorry.
> I totally gave up on going up to a man and introducing
> myself: his first reflex is to run away....

Oh nooo. Never give up. As we don't give up trying to bone the chycks we
sarge. It can be tough but you can learn a real lot ; )


>> ** A Stunningly Beautiful Woman **
>>I found this technique to be a great one for picking up women.
>>Walk up to a woman that you find attractive.  The setting is
>>irrelevant.  And say to her with a smile:
>>"Excuse me, but I could not help to notice you while walking
>>there.  I wanted to let you know that you are a stunningly
>>beautiful woman."
>>Then wait for a response which, in 95% of all cases, is a mix of
>>stunned disbelief mixed in with blushing and immediate like toward
>STRONGLY consider not using the EXCUSE ME, BUT opening.  I'M CURIOUS >is
far stronger (bums open with EXCUSE ME, BUT).  "Hi  You are
>stunning", says the exact same thing - your version pussyfoots.  While
>your advice on LAYING IT ON THE LINE is useful, this opener I have
>found from my field experience rarely OPENS the convo, especially when
>the girl KNOWS she is stunning.  Just my 2 cents worth here.

Mark's comments:
This has always worked for me and every woman I have ever gone out with I
have told that she looks great. I discovered this by accident when I went up
to a stripper and told her she was the most beautiful woman I have ever
seen. She gave me her number, we went out and she fucked me despite living
with a guy at the time. I gave her no money for dances, just a great time
when we went out. Otherwise, I find if I am not forward and upfront with a
woman she thinks I am playing her and not interested.
>>I find that most of the time this is all you have to say, and the
>>woman will do most of the talking and the pressure is off you.  The
>>woman will freely continue the conversation with you."):
>ALSO, your approach ASSUMES a woman is ALONE.  Realistically, when do
>you find a "STUNNING" woman in a 1:1?  AND ... if she is in a 2 set,
>then by approaching the target immediately, you simply alienate her
>friend (the obstacle).  You gotta DISARM the obstacle first, NEG the
>target, get PERMISSION to 1:1 with the target from the obstacle and
>THEN you can use your line (though the truncated version is far

Mark's comments:
Usually they are alone. The setting I find is irrelevant. I have picked up
women driving on the street, in a mall, at the gym, bars, clubs, walking on
the street, anywhere.
>>Using this technique I have been able to score more numbers and dates
>>than any other way.  Follow up the initial comments about how great
>>she looks and how much you are attracted to her.  Then tell her you
>>would love to see her for a drink or a meal.  Get her number.
>Opening with a compliment is NOT a proven winner when approaching 9+
>rated women.  If it WAS, I'd be using it.

Mark's comments:
I find that it's much easier for me to get a date with a 9+ woman than a
woman below that standard. I dated a Ms. Black Ontario, Ms. Hot legs
Toronto, A
Ms. Nude World Exotic Pageant winner, fitness instructors, actresses,
models, exotic dancers, all beautiful women. I find that despite their
beauty, these women still feel insecure about who they are and showing them
acceptance through being complimentary shows them you see the best in them.
>>I find this works for the following reasons:
>>* It's courageous, and women like men who take risks.
>Courage is good, but approaching an entire group of people and coming
>off natural and confident does the trick nicely.

Mark's comments:
In order to show how gutsy I can be to a group of women, I sometimes will
approach 5 or more that stand together at a club and get all of their
attention. Their reaction is disbelief that a guy would put himself at such
risk but they all smile and I usually can get one of them off to the side to
talk. They key I found though is not to back off from them and stand in
there until you get a response.
>>* It's honest and to the point. They know where they stand with you.
>And where is the challenge?  You need to evoke CAPTURE instincts.

Mark's comments:
Challenge is a largely misunderstood idea. Challenge is not about
withholding your liking and appreciation of woman to make her chase you and
it's not about being critical. Holding back is a flawed technique because
when you meet a woman she does not yet see any benefit from her chasing you
so why would you try to elicit her to give you chase. Unless you are a
celebrity or wealthy beyond belief you have to show her some sort of benefit
for her going after you. I have discussed the issue of challenge
specifically with many women directly in order to exactly see what being a
real challenge is and they mostly say that a man who is challenging is one
that does not agree with them, a man that tries to get his way with her and
challenges what she wants and her point of view. That is a real challenge,
not withholding your affections. When you withhold your affections or
downplay her looks you are being critical and no one including women likes
to be criticized. Would you like to be around someone who just told you that
you look like you gained 10 pounds around your waist? I thought so.
>>* If they are attracted to you, telling them you find them beautiful
>>will free them from their fear of rejection of being attracted to you.
>This forces them to judge you on your LOOKS alone.

Mark's comments:
That is true if that is the only offering that you have. Women have told me
that they thought I have a lot of courage to be able to come up to them and
make those comments. They key after the opening line is to divert the
conversation into other topics so that she can see there is much more to you
than just looks, etc.
>>* It makes them feel good about themselves.
>When you are guy #17 of the day complimenting them (trust me, I have
>had HOT GF's) they KNOW they are hot.  It's merely a FACT.

Mark's comments:
They know they are hot but they still feel insecure about themselves. Like I
said before you have to stay in there with her and not back down because you
are guy #18 in the day. What makes you different is that you stay in there
and do not allow her to squirm away. That is the real challenge to them.
>>* It lets them know you like them. People like those who like them.
>They KNOW people want to FUCK them, it's liking THEM ... who they are
I>NSIDE ... that they like.

Mark's comments:
They do not know you want to fuck them unless you tell them and give some
sort of hint. Women have told me that if a guy does not tell them what he
wants they see him as weak and playing games. They prefer upfront honesty
bluntness. Even if they suggest otherwise, it's not the case.
>>Try it on the next 20 women that you see and you will be amazed with
>>the results.
>>More from Mark Bednarski (from private email, commenting on my question
>>about how are the women in Toronto):
>>Women here are more about commitment and being serious. I find you need to
>>prove to them that you want them, not just for one night fucking. If they
>>sense you are a player they are gone.
>>So as long as I show them I am serious about them they respond.
>Sometimes this fits Toronto, sometimes not.  I wouldn't personally say
>that women here want SERIOUS.  This could be merely an observational
>bias.  Admittedly, it's not as CAREFREE as LA (truth is, Toronto girls
>are pretty ugly - there are maybe 1 to 3 girls who are 9+ in a typical
>club while in LA we're talking 5 - 15 per club.

Mark's comments.
I have lost many women because they said I was not serious about them - I
did not call enough, I did not tell them they looked great, I did not make
it urgent enough to want to see them. Here women want to know that a guy
wants them, period.
>>What seems to work is complimenting them by telling them how beautiful
>>are and how attracted you are to them and that you enjoy their company.
>Wow.  No way.  Are you approaching 9+ girls?  Sure, approach a 6.5 and
>this may work.  I have to disagree about the compliment opener thing.

Mark's comments:
WOW. Way man. What planet are you on, man? 9+, for sure. Like I said
before: strippers, models, actresses, fitness instructors, pageant winners
including a Ms. Nude World winner. NO amount of theory can explain away the
success of the techniques. I started out with no theory, just went with my
gut feelings and instincts and things always worked out for the best.
Whenever I try to apply some sort of a theory other than being myself it's
crash and burn, baby.
>>This way they think you are serious about them without actually telling
>>them you want them long term. If they come back and say they though you
>>long term can say you never said that and keep your sense of integrity.
>>By being adventurous I find that you just need to be that way and they
>>see it. You do not have to tell them. Action speaks better than words.
>>I read an article about a 28 year old who says he loses women after 6 - 7
>>dates. This works 90% of the time for me to get sex, 2nd dates and
>>relationships when I do this as soon as possible. I have told them they
look great >>and I find them beautiful.
>No doubt after you have counted a few IOI's and you are going for the
>close you phase shift from hard to get to conveying your desires.  You
>MUST convey your desires at some point certainly, but not when you

Mark's comments:
When I open, I tell a woman that I find her attractive and I would like to
see her for a drink or lunch, etc. Slow but steady diet rather than nothing
and then everything at once. This way they are ready for your close.
>>I told them I was attracted to them and I found them attractive.
>>I talked about sex with them and tell them how much I enjoy it.
>>I touch them a lot but casually, on the shoulder, arm, back, etc.
>>I kiss them on the lips during the date.
>>I tell them I enjoy their company and would love to see them again.
>>I called them a day or so after first meeting them and a day or so after a
>>1st date.
>>I ask them lots of questions but say little about myself and listen to
>>them. I did this in such a way to suggest that I am open to them but not
>>desperate or not that they have to engage in anything right now.
>>Whenever I failed to get sex, a 2nd date or a relationship, it's because I
>>did not do at least one of the things above. I lost many great women that
>>way. They said "Mark, your desire to be with me was not urgent enough"
>>after I did not call right away.
>>"I want to be friends" when I did not talk about sex or kiss them.
>>"I am not ready for a relationship" - when I did not talk about one.
>>I don't think you are interested in me" - after I do not tell them I think
>>they are great.
>>I feel some other systems work only on women that have the capability to
>>chase and stand the risk of rejection. Most women do not have that ability
>>and when a man tries to have a woman chase him she will think he is not
>>interested in her and she will move on.
>Wow man, what girls are you going after?  Can you send me an email with
>a pic of yourself (of course it will remain private)?  If you are in
>Toronto, maybe it would be entertaining and possibly educational to
>meet up in the field for some pleasurable mutual gaming.

Mark's comments:
Only 9+ women. Every woman needs to feel desired. My mother cheated on my
father for 16 years with about 30 men. When I asked her why, she said
they told her they wanted her and found her beautiful. My dad is a great guy
and despite that she fucked around on him for 16 years behind his back.
Every woman needs to feel desired. It's the evolutionary need where she
that the man she is with will not leave her for a lack of interest. But the
key is to show her you are the man by standing up to her and her ways.

I have no e-mail pic but I am 27, 6' tall, 230 lbs solid muscle, 33 inch
waist, weight training for 14 years. Every week I get comments from women on
my good looks.
>>Countless personal experiences and many discussions with women have
>>confirmed this for me. Unless you are Gene Simmons, most women think the
>>average guy is not worth the chase.
>Based on looks certainly, but GROUP THEORY is about CREATING an image
>worthy of her chasing you.

Mark's comment:
The bottom line is be yourself 100% and trust your instincts. The above
for me because I have internalized the technique and it's the truest
reflection of who I am inside. As in weight training, do what works for you.
The best advice I can give anyone is try different things and see what works
for you and stick to that. What may work for you may not work for others.
It's all about doing what is true to you.


I have a comment to make about the last seduction email.  Actually, it is a
question to Mystery.  My question is why are the looks of the guy he is
responding to (in the comment below) so important? (Mystery's comment is
>Wow man, what girls are you going after?  Can you send me an email with
>a pic of yourself (of course it will remain private)?  If you are in
>Toronto, maybe it would be entertaining and possibly educational to
>meet up in the field for some pleasurable mutual gaming.

Personally, I would be interested in knowing if there are any AVERAGE
looking (or even BELOW AVERAGE looking) players in this seduction group.
What about any guys in the 30 and up age category?  Most of the players seem
to be in their 20's (meeting attractive women is much harder when you get
over 30).

Lastly, if a Brad Pitt clone goes out night clubbing, approaches HB's with
lame lines (i.e. telling them they are beautiful...), then successfully
seduces them and later reports this on a seduction newsgroup, how will his
advice help the average looking guy???

My Comment:  Here's news for those of you who think looks matter:  have you
ever seen a super model with a dorky looking guy (Julia Roberts and that
goober she married some time ago come to mind right away)?  Ever heard a
woman talk about how attracted she is to some guy and then when you see him
there's nothing special about his looks?  The reality is that if a guy
handles her the right way, they see that guy as being good looking.  My
friend David (who you will be hearing more about) is married to a woman who
was in his stable for 4 years (and she knew there were other women for all
of that time) who thinks he is "the sexiest man on earth" (these are her
words, that she told me directly (David's wife, incidentally, was fixed up
with him by some mutual friends because (a) every woman they introduced to
him wanted to marry him and (b) this woman was known to be the biggest
ball-buster out there, who worked a high paying job in information
technology for a major accounting firm and who was chased by a wide range of
highly successful men, none of whom interested her.  And those of you
(including Formhandle of» who attended the brunch we had
with him are encouraged to give your description of his looks -- and what
you don't know is David weighed maybe 100 pounds more then than he does now,
and he could still stand to lose probably 40 or more pounds.  I also have
known guys who were really good looking (one of whom was constantly being
picked by women when he joined a dating service) who couldn't get a second
date if their life depended on it.  So while the reports here from good
looking guys may be considered not as useful as those from not good looking
guys who are successful, I think what you really need to focus on is their
attitudes as that is what is taking them to the success they are having.
The looks will open the door (and there are lots of ways to open the door),
but they won't keep you there.  I have met so many stunning looking women
who have told me they could have the most drop dead gorgeous men at their
feet night and day, but these guys make them puke (their words).  There's no
question there are a lot of shallow women out there, and there are equally a
lot of women who are as attracted to your money as we could be to their
looks, but there are many that need to feel fulfilled with a real person who
knows how to challenge them and treat them in a way that holds their

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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