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We can disarm them faster and more completely
7/7/01 10:36:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time


>Mark's comments:
>I find that it's much easier for me to get a date with a 9+ woman than a
>woman below that standard. I dated a Ms. Black Ontario, Ms. Hot legs
>Toronto, A
>Ms. Nude World Exotic Pageant winner, fitness instructors, actresses,
>models, exotic dancers, all beautiful women. I find that despite their
>beauty, these women still feel insecure about who they are and showing them
>acceptance through being complimentary shows them you see the best in them.

Verily, I say unto you, you are not far from the Kingdom of Poontangus.
>Mark's comments:
>Challenge is a largely misunderstood idea. Challenge is not about
>withholding your liking and appreciation of woman to make her chase you and
>it's not about being critical. Holding back is a flawed technique because
>when you meet a woman she does not yet see any benefit from her chasing you
>so why would you try to elicit her to give you chase. Unless you are a
>celebrity or wealthy beyond belief you have to show her some sort of
>for her going after you.

Again, this Brother is speaking Truth.  Only the sick who need the
drama are going to be attracted to the man who always withholds.
>  I have discussed the issue of challenge
>specifically with many women directly in order to exactly see what being a
>real challenge is and they mostly say that a man who is challenging is one
>that does not agree with them, a man that tries to get his way with her and
>challenges what she wants and her point of view. That is a real challenge,
>not withholding your affections.

Not only that, it is a challenge that requires INTELLIGENCE. Any
idiot with a bad attitude can challenge by withholding; just shut up
and say and do nothing.
>When you withhold your affections or
>downplay her looks you are being critical and no one including women likes
>to be criticized. Would you like to be around someone who just told you
>you look like you gained 10 pounds around your waist? I thought so.

Only the sick and twisted. So if you troll for rat, using rat bait,
don't expect  it to taste like fillet mignon. And don't assume only
rats exist.
>  >>* If they are attracted to you, telling them you find them beautiful
>  >>will free them from their fear of rejection of being attracted to you.
>  >This forces them to judge you on your LOOKS alone.
>Mark's comments:
>They know they are hot but they still feel insecure about themselves. Like
>said before you have to stay in there with her and not back down because
>are guy #18 in the day. What makes you different is that you stay in there
>and do not allow her to squirm away. That is the real challenge to them.

Again, this Brother is seeing the truth.  The challenge is the lack
of fear. The straightforward compliment isn't what gets them. It's
the willingness to stick out your neck and CALMLY acknowledge,
without apology, what you think and then move to something else.

AND THEN MOVE TO SOMETHING ELSE.  You who keep not seeing
that point astound me.

This bro GETS IT!
>Mark's comments:
>They do not know you want to fuck them unless you tell them and give some
>sort of hint. Women have told me that if a guy does not tell them what he
>wants they see him as weak and playing games. They prefer upfront honesty
>bluntness. Even if they suggest otherwise, it's not the case.

Bluntness is trusted.


Dr. Dennis W. Neder (Commenting on the discussion between Mark and Mystery
on whether to compliment a woman on her looks):

This is a very important key here.
I also strongly recommend that men DON'T compliment women - ESPECIALLY on
the first few dates! I know that this works for Mark, but I believe it is
related to his looks and his approach - something that the rest of us don't
have or use.

Women CRAVE attention from us and already have heard all the lines about
their looks. If you keep them wanting that attention, you keep their
interest level building. This level has to be high to bed them. If you give
it all away up front, you're never going to get to her. I've actually had
relationships (2 years!) where I've NEVER complimented a woman - and she
just couldn't get enough! In fact, she is married and still calls regularly
just for some attention. If I were so inclined, she'd be no problem to bang.

If you just can't help yourself from complimenting a woman's looks, try
this: say, "Hello - you look INTERESTING." Don't use "beautiful", "cute",
etc. There has to be a higher level for all of this to work - and SHE has to
know it, want it and go after it.
>Stephanie (from private email):
>Women do not quickly fuck men they want to respect them.  Plain and simple.
>If they have any brains they will make you wait in hopes you will respect
>them and want it more in the end.  (You have your seduction newsletter and
>seminars and women have books like the Rules - they both teach people to
>play games to get what you want.)  Women never seem to know what they want,
>so I would suggest trying to educate them and convincing them that what you
>want is what they want and their idea if necessary.  We women have done
>for years.  You bring an idea up and then drop it.  Later on you bring it
>again but as though it was THEIR idea and you have them snowed.  Especially
>if you tell them something along the lines of them changing your
>perspectives and changing your life in some way.  We want to feel as though
>we are needed and making a difference.

This is ridiculous on two fronts:
1) Fucking has nothing to do with respect - how Victorian must a woman be to
buy into this?
2) Jumping in bed is all about her motivation. If she is smart and wants to
land some guy, she'd better get the sex out of the way if he is any kind of
catch! Usually the men that put up with the "waiting game" have nothing else
going on and just hang out hoping that eventually she'll give in.

The rules I give any man (from my book "Being a Man in a Woman's World") is
this: First, you don't know what she's thinking (nor should it matter),
thus, you don't know how long she'll hold out - or even if she WANTS to
sleep with you; and second, if she hasn't slept with you in the first 3-5
dates, she probably won't EVER - move the fuck on already!!!


Dwayne (
> Darren:
> I was impressed and flattered that a girl actually had
> the courage to say that to me.  Unfortunately, she
> wasn't physically attractive.  If she had been an HB,
> I would have definitely sarged her.

One thing I've discovered is that a woman's physical attractiveness doesn't
necessarily equate to being good in bed.
I recall sarging a fashion model who looked like a morph of Tyra Banks and
Janet Jackson.  She sucked my rod with all the enthusiasm of someone going
in for a root canal.  Then, she had the nerve to ask was it okay.

On the other hand, I met one woman who was fat and had all the fashion sense
of a Barnum and Bailey clown... yet she had a certain Je ne sais pas
that made her so incredibly sexy.

But I do agree that an HB is an HB is an HB...
Just a little food for thought...


Brother Diamond Giovanni:
Ahem... my patterning ability is not poor at all, by
the way. I can pattern around about and beyond 95
percent of you out there and with much flexibly. I've
been doing it awhile.  When you constantly see a
woman's eyes strain while talking with you and get very
antsy then you know patterning doesn't have the effect.
Besides, in the past few months I've only ran into a
handful that actually could relate to having those
kind of connections or even caring about a connection
like that.  That certainly tells me something there..

My Comment:
You are totally off base.  The fact that you aren't getting the reactions
you would like to get only confirms that while you may be able to recite
patterns you aren't conveying them in an effective manner.

All (available) women are looking for a special connection, and if you can
talk to them in a way that speaks to their hearts then they will respond
eagerly to you.

Perhaps your tonality is off, you maybe aren't coming through as sincere --
I am not sure what it is but the common denominator is you, and in the way I
look at things when a seduction doesn't work for me, it is because the buck

You don't give enough details to know what you are doing wrong, but it is
pretty clear that you aren't being effective.


I am wondering if you have more entries on the issue of eye contact with
women. It appears as though making and holding eye contact seems to elicit
strong feelings of attraction in a woman. I have never actually made an
effort to be aware of the need for eye contact but I am wondering what sorts
of effects this really has on a woman. I would also like to know what sorts
of experiences your other readers have had in that area. Some of the readers
in this e-mail have alluded to holding strong eye contact and seducing many
women this way. What are the mechanics of establishing and holding strong
eye contact and what have been some of the effects of doing that.


You know I am tired of theorizing and jobbing back and forth between
some guys that never actually have the balls to talk to a woman. I went out
this past weekend and used my technique on a woman to prove to myself and to
the rest of you that I am right and all these others so called experts only
theorize and do not have a clue what the fuck is going on.

Monday night about 9:15 p.m.
I park my car on street corner. I see a beautiful woman walking in front of
me about 25 feet away.
I call out without even thinking twice about it "Hey, gorgeous"
She turns around "Hey you"
Me "Where are you going"
She motions me to come closer to her.
Her "Home to finish cooking my lobster and fillet mignon"
Me "You know the best way to a man's heart is though is stomach"
Her Laughing "I called you over to see what you look like. Where do you
Me "Not around here, another part of the city"
Her "What are you doing in this part"
Me "Just went for a drive but had to stop to get come cereal for breakfast
at this corner store"
She with a laugh "Let me have your number, I am in a hurry because I do not
want my lobster to overcook"
Me "Let's go to my car"
At my car I pull out my business card.
Her "How old are you"
Me "I'll be 28 in Aug"
Her "I am a little older than you but we can still have lots of fun, I tried
dating someone older than me last year and it did not work"
Me "Every woman I have ever dated has been older"
Her "That's great, where do you think this will go"
Me "It's way to early to say and I cannot make an offer of marriage at this
point but we could either have some nights filled with passion or become
good friends. Lets see what happens. Let me have your number"
Her "No I do not give mine out. Let me have yours and I'll call you"
Me "Look. I have seen this before. If I just give you my number you will
never going to call me. I am not into that"
Her "Do not worry. I'll call you within the next few days. I get this a lot
from guys and I like to be selective and do not want everyone calling me all
the time.
Me "If you do call then you can make me lobster and fillet mignon"
Her "Sure, talk to you later"

She called two days later.

There is nothing wrong with laying it on the line and being up front. She
had a big fucking smile on her face when I called out to her and called her
gorgeous. All you guys who think it does not work tough luck for you for it
always works for me. It's gutsy and to the point and women love a man who
can be upfront with what he thinks and wants from a woman. You can theorize
all you want but no amount of theory can take real life experience away.

She called again today. We made plans for the weekend. On the phone she said
she was highly sexual and she loves to express herself sexually. I asked her
about what she thought of the comment that I made about her being gorgeous
and she said she preferred that since it was honest and I came out and told
her what I wanted from her. She said she is not looking for anything serious
but wants to have lots of fun. Perfect!!!!!!!!!

Why hide what you feel. If you try to be manipulative you only end up being
dishonest and women see that. Be forward and honest and women will love you
for it.

My Comment:  I know that what you wrote above is going to be read by most of
the guys reading this and they will immediately conclude that you got this
woman because of your looks and nothing else.  I submit that that was the
door opener and that you wouldn't have gotten anywhere with her without
that, but that it was your attitude that carried the ball from point A to
point B.


When a girl I'm with asks me about other women, or what I was doing "last
night", or why I didn't show up for this or that (aka I was busy with
girl). I tell the truth with a smile in an overly sincere funny way. It's
hilarious, they literally WON'T believe me. I flat out told HB-fire that I
was out with my hot blond girl when she asked what I did all day. So she
laughs and playfully hit me, LOL. I did this every time any issue came up
for the last month or so, and now she's not even questioning me.

Of course, if I'm not prompted I won't say a thing. Still, this works great
for when I'd otherwise have to conjure up some stupid lie. It's still a lie,
but it's an EASY lie (I mean, I'm telling her I was out with a hot blond
with a cute ass, which was true, but I'm saying it in an overly-serious
funny/joking way so she won't think it's true). Hard to explain in text but
I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. It's just over the top truth
telling, long as you're smiling and keeping it funny they will laugh and
on. If they press for what you "really" did, just keep up the story as
incredulously as you can, they keep playing. I guess they figure no guy
would be stupid enough to REALLY be that honest, right?

It works really well, it's quick, and it requires no thought on your part. I
did this to a girl in front of a wingman recently and he called me "Satan"
later on when he had a chance.
Of course it's not for every girl, hell, some girls don't mind my lifestyle
one bit (I even managed to get a couple to go for a 3-some recently, THAT
was fun, thank you Mystery, you were KEY in that one, lol). Still, for the
more closed minded it makes for a good answer when questions like that pop
up. I only tend to run into these questions en-masse on the more clingy
girls, but it happens sometimes. Try it out, forget lying, telling the truth
is far better. You'll be smiling for a reason, the truth never was so much


> Ethereal:
> This theme runs counter to the whole notion of
> rapport in seduction, I realize, but haven't we all, at least once, not
>even talked to a girl yet still enjoyed a great seduction?

This is something I hear said so often that I have to comment.  Even in
heavy conversation, rapport is based only maybe 20% on what you say.   80%
of it's non-verbal.  To me rapport is like a balancing act.  Lots of things
can break rapport.  Say the wrong thing.  Make the wrong face.  However,
you get good at, it just feels natural and normal.
> I'm not saying everyone should act such a way after a few words with an
>HB, but to pay attention to her, do lots of non-verbal tests, calibrate by
> going any further and/or going shorter than she does with her own verbal
> communication, and to take it to the next level with non-verbal
> communication if it feels like it's a possibility

This is great stuff.
> (it sucks to wonder, after all).

Yeah, I agree, I find myself PUing women sometimes just to see if I can.
Kind of fun...
> Isn't seduction really all about the non-verbal dynamics,
> communication and behavior (including sex) between you and a woman, and
>not necessarily exactly what was said?
> I'd like to hear any interesting non-verbal seductions, tests, or leading,
> etc. that people have experienced/used.  Or indications like: a girl
> off her shoes when she's been to your apartment for the first time (good
> sign), etc.  Some of these have been brought up before like eye contact,
>or that "shock induction" stuff (which I found fascinating).

I'm constantly looking at a girls' feet.  If she points them towards me I
know that I'm in.  It's that simple.  When they don't I know I have to do
more ground work.  Also I watch for them to laugh or respond when I'm
talking to someone else.

On of my favorite things to do to a woman is to pick her up.  This is a
great way to build rapport, but you have to be very playful about it.


> Brother Diamond Giovanni:
> I've tried every way of saying intro's like that [ed. stunning intro] and
> they don't really have a good/positive response and if
> they do then it's not a very good one anyway.  Setting
> up the intro with the right context doesn't work for
> these intro's either.  It's always been my experience
> that women do not like PATTERNING OF ANY TYPE in the
> first initial meeting, or introduction routines either for that
> matter!!  I've tried all sorts of patterning material
> in the beginning of meeting a babe and it just doesn't
> work frankly, because for a couple of reasons:
> 1:  She doesn't care and she doesn't really want to
> listen to someone she doesn't really have rapport with
> yet so  NO GO..

You can build rapport with a simple hello.  You need to calibrate, pace and
really pay attention to the situation before you even make the approach
(this all happens very fast).
> 2:  Patterning is for after the first meeting unless
> you're using some unusual patterning material..
> curiousity and intrigue are fine and interesting
> patterns to run on a babe but they don't care to hear
> it in the first meeting you both have together.. it
> won't keep their interest and they will either shut
> down or ignore you while your running it.

What are you talking about? Patterning can be used in the first sentence and
certainly in light conversation.  Sounds like you are perceiving patterning
like a club that you hit someone over the head with, not the silk scarf of
communication it must be.  I patterned this stunning 9.75 at the gym in the
first minute (an off the cuff version of the Discovery Channel) about 4
months ago.  I hadn't seen her since (turns out she has a live in BF and a
very young son, so I didn't pursue).  Today I walked up to the water
fountain and lo and behold...  Anyway, I said hello and told her I couldn't
remember her name (it's a weird name), she told me and then told me my name
(it's also very unusual).  It's pretty clear I made a strong impression on
her in the 15 minutes of conversation we had 4 months ago.  I remember
thinking at the time, that she knew I was talking on multiple levels, but
that she liked it.  Use the silk scarf of pattern communication to rub them
the right way.
> Mark's comments:
> In order to show how gutsy I can be to a group of women, I sometimes will
> approach 5 or more that stand together at a club and get all of their
> attention. Their reaction is disbelief that a guy would put himself at
> risk but they all smile and I usually can get one of them off to the side
> talk. They key I found though is not to back off from them and stand in
> there until you get a response.

Mark, talk more about this.  I wan to hear more about "persistent group set
approaches."  I'm really into trying out new techniques all the time.  I
don't usually use physical compliment openers, but I've been thinking about
it lately, and I think your post has pushed me over the edge.  Let see if
you can help expand my impoverished world view in terms of a new type of
group set opener.
> Mark's comments:
> [snip on challenge]When you withhold your affections or
> downplay her looks you are being critical and no one including women likes
> to be criticized. Would you like to be around someone who just told you
> you look like you gained 10 pounds around your waist? I thought so.

With all due respect, many women don't respond the way men do to insults.
I've definitely had good results using negs and in certain cases down right
insults.  This isn't something I recommend to people just learning PU.
> Mark's comments:
> That is true if that is the only offering that you have. Women have told
>me that they thought I have a lot of courage to be able to come up to them
>and make those comments. They key after the opening line is to divert the
>conversation into other topics so that she can see there is much more to
>you than just looks, etc.
> I have no e-mail pic but I am 27, 6' tall, 230 lbs solid muscle, 33 inch
> waist, weight training for 14 years. Every week I get comments from women
>on my good looks.

I don't match up to that :-) but I will still give your technique a try.
Many of the techniques I have modeled with success came from better looking
guys than myself.  One thing that I have seen work (occasionally as an
and tons of times after the first hook up) is to address a woman as
"beautiful".  i.e. "Hey, beautiful."  It has to be sincere and VERY matter
of fact, not said as a compliment waiting for a response.  The funniest time
I ever saw this work was when a friend was answering his cell in a super
market and a girl was across the produce from him.  It was his GF on the
phone, so he picked it up, "hello, beautiful."  The girl across the produce
said.  "Hello" with a big smile and a blush.  When she realized what had
happened she looked disappointed and a little embarrassed.  I was dying, but
I took note as well.
> Paul:
> Personally, I would be interested in knowing if there are any AVERAGE
> looking (or even BELOW AVERAGE looking) players in this seduction group.
> What about any guys in the 30 and up age category?  Most of the players
> to be in their 20's (meeting attractive women is much harder when you get
> over 30).

I totally disagree.  I have lots of 30+ friends who PU all the time.  I'm 27
and pull women 18-32.  Age isn't important unless you are foolish enough to
make it an issue.  Being a guy, being older is a great advantage.  Not for a
chick though...  That's one of life's little double standards.


>Maybe you should. After 100's of sarges (my respect, brother) you still
>pick women up with the perverted genetical perfection phrase?? Boooring.
Can you
>remember a time when you read or heard that women don't like to be judged
>by the outside at first, by the genes. That's a nice nose ring you're
>wearing but I like your neck more. Silly. Establish a connection. If you
>genes, ask a scientist. It's all about emotions you ugly pervert. I'm so

Dude, you're WAY off base her. The "genetical perfection phrase" is supposed
to be delivered in a non-serious tone, not like you really mean it. It's
designed to get a laugh, and if you ever actually USED the line, you'd
know that it mostly does.


Saying on a date, "Your the one who likes to ride horses right?" is
pretty kewl because it like makes her feel like that you are seeing a
ton of girls.


Can women approach men?
Let's say a man approaches ten women, and fails to get what she wants from
them. Then he concludes that a man better not approach women, because it
doesn't work!! This seems to be the perspective a lot of women have on
approaching men. "Oh, well, I tried it twice. It didn't work." But show me a
woman who has approached a hundred men in two month's time, who has not
been more successful (by her definition; talking, romance, dating, whatever)
than before.
> As unfortunate as it may sound, most men require looks (not that I'm
> not saying that looks are SUFFICIENT, only that they are
> NECESSARY) in a woman in order for him to be attracted to her,
> whereas men have other tools at hand to create attraction.

Listen, if it were true that men only go out with the best looking women,
then 90 percent of the women, and hence also 90 percent of all men, would be
home alone.

Men WANT very beautiful women -- especially when all else is equal. So, the
first reaction is to approach the more visually attractive ones. BUT, in
reality -- hey, just open your eyes --  men also date women with lesser
looks. These men may still want a prettier woman, the same way a woman will
find herself attracted to a man who serves her needs much better.
> It appears that an element of success with highly attractive women is
> the little mentioned fact that these women are out there being aggressive
> with men they find desirable.

So, Clifford, what you're saying is that once you have successfully
attracted a highly attractive woman, she will start chasing you more
intensively compared to a less attractive woman?

My Comment: No, what I was talking about is that something we haven't talked
about much in these emails (or elsewhere that I have read over the last few
years) is that there are apparently a lot of highly attractive women who are
out there with strong self esteems who are approaching very good looking
men.  What use this information can be for us I don't know, but it is an
observation worth noting.  And will a highly attractive woman start chasing
a man more intensively compared to a less attractive woman -- it's been my
experience that they will.  Many can't believe that you aren't really
interested in them and can be extremely persistent.

Marc continues:
> Stephanie (from private email):
> Women never seem to know what they want, so I would suggest trying
> to educate them and convincing them that what you want is what they
> want and their idea if necessary.  We women have done that for years.

Hmmm.... In what way have women done that for years exactly?
> Mark's comments:
> NO amount of theory can explain away the success of the techniques.
> I started out with no theory, just went with my gut feelings and instincts
> and things always worked out for the best.

What Mark does seems to work perfectly for him, so there's no need to try to
disprove that. It may work exclusively for him, so you'd have to find out
how useful his advice is to others.  Obviously, he's a natural. As for when
he says:
> Whenever I try to apply some sort of a theory other than being myself it's
> crash and burn, baby. [...] The bottom line is be yourself 100% and trust
your instincts. [...] It's all about doing what is true to you.

This "being true to yourself" I don't understand. Imagine you are a classic
geek. How would being 'true to himself', make you more successful with
women? Mark, can you explain this in more detail? Can you also be more
specific in what you say (or examples thereof), and what steps you go
through when meeting and seducing a woman?

My Comment:  More useful would be how some of you go about creating the
mindset and attitudes to attain such success.


Response to TGB123:
Quite correct, that is not the way I would behave with a friend, but it is
also not the way SHE behaves with friends either. I should know because her
male friends are my friends and she is generally stand-offish. I don't
believe it comes down to not being into sex, but more so the fact that I
challenge her own beliefs. The reason I say this is because I am definitely
not the type of guy she would normally be attracted to and I know this. I
also know that she is attracted to me because she has told me so, and she
has also told me that she doesn't know/can't explain why. This confuses her
and I think scares her a bit also. This is what I believe is the crux of why
she has LJBF'd me, until she can be sure of her own feelings. If I persisted
with her, I believe I would be able to break down that barrier, but I don't
have that much patience with chycks and would rather move onto the next.

Does anyone on the list have any good ideas on how to combat this female
interruption pattern? Any constructive criticism/ideas would be appreciated.


> she tells me she cares for me, has feelings for
> me, and she is always
> holding my hand, touching, hugging and kissing
> me, and definitely not in the
> way you would behave with a friend.

It is definitely not the way YOU would behave with a friend. Maybe it's her
way of liking her friends. Who knows, perhaps she isn't into sex
(intercourse) at all. Or is she?


Paul Lee Amorous:
I have a comment about the last few seduction emails.  Mark has posted his
success to the group with his technique of going up to "9+" women and
telling them that they are beautiful (BTW, I think this is the LAMEST line I
have yet to hear on these seduction emails).

My Comment:  Not to be taken necessarily as a recommendation but awhile ago
here we spoke of a book by John Egan (the name of the book escapes me, and I
couldn't find it by doing a couple of quick searches on the net) who's whole
point about picking up women is to tell them they are beautiful.  It seems
it does work a good percentage of the time, if done maturely, and naturally.

Paul Lee Amorous continues:
Mark then goes on to post his stats (Marks comments are below):
>I have no e-mail pic but I am 27, 6' tall, 230 lbs solid muscle, 33 inch
>waist, weight training for 14 years. Every week I get comments from women
>my good looks.

Again, I reiterate the point I made on the last seduction email. (my point
is below):

Lastly, if a Brad Pitt clone goes out night clubbing, approaches HB's with
lame lines (i.e. telling them they are beautiful...), then successfully
seduces them and later reports this on a seduction newsgroup, how will his
advice help the average looking guy???

Personally, I look forward to hearing about Clifford's friend David and how
he succeeds in seducing women with his limited looks.

My success with women has directly correlated with my looks at the time of
success; in high school I was successful in meeting HB's (HB's would
approach me and told me I was good looking), in my 20's my success with HB's
steadily declined but I still got the occasional compliment about my looks.
Now that I am in my late 30's, women no longer notice me and that is why I
am on the list (BTW, I work out and am in great shape, dress in nice clothes
--and shiny shoes-- but still just look like an average joe "older" guy).
can an average looking "joe" type of guy like me compete with a PUA who has
the stats of Mark???


Question for you to ask Mystery:  I have become quite good at
drawing chycks and if he were this artist, how would he incorporate the
sketchbook angle in with the stripper rules??

I can only work from photos - so I am unable to draw on the spot. I
assume that this can replace the Photo Routine of Mystery's??

My Comment:  We'll wait to hear from Mystery, but in the meantime I used to
do the drawing thing myself (I have a BFA and my focus was on drawing).
Contrary to you, one of my strengths was drawing portraits live.  I am not
sure how much I recommend this angle, better I think to tell them you'd like
to draw them and maybe arrange a sitting.  Problem with this is that it is
indirect, impersonal and anything like that always blows up in my face with
(here for example) the woman looking at me as "the artist", but not as her
man.  I crash and burn when I am indirect, unless I smell that the women is
attracted to me then it doesn't really matter what I do.  I think if I was
doing this today, I'd use it as something to do on a date - 'hey, how about
you come over and I will draw you?'  Of course, the prospect of nude
modeling hangs in the air.


Dinsdale Piranha:
I have been sarging at a local church group (not looking for sex but
relationships using all of the Jedi powers of you, Ross, Mystery, NYC
and Maniac.  I have approached about 8 girls in the span of two months
in this group (averaging about one a week) and number closed about two.
I have become Yoda as far as approaching groups with guys and using all
components of the MM.  Anyway, an interesting thing happened last night,
as I was in a restaurant with the group (young adult-college group), two
guys pulled me aside, (one was the leader and the other was a guy who
thinks he is hot stuff (he went to Princeton) and said that I was disturbing
a lot of the girls because I was asking so many of them out and that I
needed to stop.  I basically
told them that I didn't care if I was, and then I thought to myself that
you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.  So I backed off and
said that I would chill out.  I got a lot of crap like if God wants you
to have a girlfriend then he will provide you with one and I retorted, I
don't believe in that crap. we make our own destiny and I used to
believe that I never had a girlfriend for a while when I believed that.
The stuff they told me would have devastated me a few years ago but
since I have so much Anthony Robbins and Dwayne Dyer stuff in my head,
it was struck down by my light saber of enlightenment.  I didn't realize
that these girls would be such gossips and go tell each other that I
asked for all their numbers, heh heh.  I read in a book once that when
going to these groups that one needs to be careful not to establish a
rep for asking out tons of girls.  Should I be doing this differently or
just continue on?  This is not really written to evoke any answers but I
kind of needed to tell somebody this since all my friends would think I
was nuts if I got into the details.  Anyway, about two weeks ago I had a
startling revelation which allowed me to form a people jacket around me
consisting of about 8 girls at a club that lasted for about 20 minutes
(this never happened before).  My mindset was as follows: I didn't give
a crap of what they thought about me.  No matter how they reacted, what
they did, whatever, I didn't let that affect me at all and due to that
reason, my mind's processor was freed up to come up with a more
interesting, entertaining conversation.  Another cool tool is to make
the obstacles not only think you are awesome like Mystery said but make
them feel important.  If we concentrate too much on them liking us, they
might sense that we are just using them, but if we make them feel
important, then they can sense that and we can disarm them faster and
more completely.  After meeting tons of girls in the past 8 months, I
have literally become like Hank from Me, Myself and Irene after all the
crap I have gone through.  Funny how this stuff works.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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