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I can control my front, but not my back
7/9/01 9:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time


I have to say I am quite pleased with the level of quality contributions
that are coming in these days, and how this little email has been blessed
with comments from many of the "pros" and "masters", such as Ross Jeffries
(, Sisonpyh (David DeAngelo of, Mystery, Major Mark (, Dr. Dennis
W. Neder, Peta (of, Arte (of, plus all
the others who are perhaps less famous but appreciated nonetheless who have
helped make this one of the best seduction resources on the net.


Hey guys.

I've been reading a lot of "My ideas are the best ones" and "My techniques
work better than yours" and "You shouldn't do what that guy is saying
because it doesn't work" and I just had to throw in my two or three cents

On the topic of looks:
If you're a good-looking guy (defined as some combination of handsome, buff,
tall, etc.) then you have a definite advantage in the opening game over guys
who are ugly, short, out of shape, etc.

What works in an initial approach is relative to the context...

Here's an analogy:
If you pull up next to a Ferrari 360M in your VW Jetta and say "Hey great
car, can I go for a ride in it" it's a lot different than pulling up in a
Lamborghini (which has more horsepower and is more expensive than the
Ferrari) and saying "Hey great car, can I go for a ride in it?"

Are you with me here?

The fact that you are wrapped in something that is perceived as being equal
to or better than their wheels makes you an instant rapport candidate.

Same goes for humans. If you're a handsome guy (and make no mistake about
this, women know) you'll have far more instant rapport with women when you
say "You're beautiful." If a woman guesses that you're the kind of guy that
attracts a lot of women, as a rule-of-thumb she'll be more open. If you're
not on her level looks-wise, she'll be more likely to think "He's telling me
that I'm beautiful in a 'he worships me' kind of way" as opposed to thinking
"He's a hot guy, and he's telling me this as an equal."

The Lamborghini owner can keep telling the Ferrari owner "Hey, this car is
really great" without fear that he'll be looked upon as a wanna-be. He's
already proven himself, and can say whatever the hell he wants.

I've seen this in person over and over and over again with my guy friends
who are handsome. They can tell hot women how hot they are all night long
without losing any of the magnetism. But it doesn't work so well for the
more normal and average looking guys I know. (I also want to mention that
attitude and approach are also powerful forces. A regular looking guy can
get a great response if his game is good, too, but good looks open up the
game much better overall).

There are other factors that play into this 'instant rapport' and openness
idea. i.e. It's a lot different asking a model out on a date if you're the
photographer that's taking pictures of her as opposed to a guy that she's
never met who walks up to her on the street.

Also, different approaches and styles work for different guys in different

I have made friends with a whole bunch of guys who are great pick-up
artists. The funny thing is that they all have completely different styles
and different types of women they're attracted to, etc. I actually can't
believe how different they are, and how different their approaches, styles,
lines, attitudes, etc. are. (Incidentally, none of the great pick-up artists
that I know try to convince anyone that their ideas are better than other
guys' ideas.)

The guys that I know (without exception) who try to convince other guys that
they're a know-it-all when it comes to women, and that their ideas are the
only thing that works actually couldn't get laid in Tijuana with a stack of
hundred dollar bills. Beware of those that claim that they're better than

On another note, I've seen guys who were killer pick up artists crash and
burn when trying another guy's style or approach, and I've seen it happen
the opposite way as well. I've seen guys who are already great become better
by integrating some new ideas from another guy.

Let me use another analogy...

If you gave Eddie Van Halen's electric guitar and amp setup to a classical
guitar player, he would probably not sound very good. The classical player
is used to playing a classical acoustic guitar... not a high-gain electric.
On the other hand, if you gave the classical guitar to Eddie Van Halen,
you'd hear some great guitar playing, because Eddie is used to multiple
and styles.

Does that make Eddie better as an artist? Does this mean that the classical
player is a worse guitar player? Does it mean that one has a better style
than the other? Does it mean that the secret lies in the equipment they're

Of course the answer to all of these questions is "No" (duh).

They're just different, and, more importantly, what each of them plays is
part of a much bigger context that includes their equipment, string gauges,
amplifiers, techniques, music styles, bands, personal interests, etc.

Read between the lines and you'll see most of the killer pick up artists on
this list saying essentially the same thing: "Don't be a pussy with women.
Give them a challenge, and show them that you are your own person..."

Now, one of us might do it by not giving out compliments, and another might
do it by challenging the things they say, and another might do it by talking
about beautiful women that they know and date... whatever.

It's important to remember that most of these techniques work for the guys
who use them... they're not just saying it. But I personally believe that
trying to talk down about another guy's style is pure insecurity. It's
usually just a ploy to get attention and be macho.

I've identified 8 distinct personality styles that attract women most (yes,
that's 8 different personality styles). And even this, of course, is a
generalization... the real number is infinite. So use your head and get
something together that works for you first. Then worry about trying to
convince every other guy on Cliff's list that your ideas are better than
everyone else's.

I recommend that you first do as much as you can to improve your looks (and
most guys can do a lot to improve... I know I have). Then work on your body
language» and non-verbal communication. Remember that only approximately 7%
of your overall communication is your words. If you pay attention only to
your words, you can get them down perfect and still have nothing work for
you. Voice tone and body language» are king. They're over 90% of the game.

I've gotten to the point where I've tried all kinds of freaky things as
openers. I've said things that don't even make sense as jokes with my
friends around just to entertain them... and if I say these things with the
right confident tone and body language», they work. If you have a cool,
cocky, funny-ass attitude you can do just about anything and it will get a
woman's attention.

I think my real objective here was to say to all the guys who are newer and
unsure of what to do that you need to get out there and try things (and, of
course, read my book - ha). Experiment with what you read on this list, but
don't take any of it as the word of God. The best thing you can possibly do
is make friends with several different guys who are good with women and go
hang out with them and watch what they do in person. There's nothing like
seeing it live.

See you in the real world.

Until next time...
And come visit me at


Arte (Founder, New Sex Institute
(Commenting on"Mark: I am wondering if you have more entries on the issue of
eye contact with women. It appears as though making and
holding eye contact seems to elicit strong feelings of
attraction in a woman. I have never actually made an
effort to be aware of the need for eye contact but I am
wondering what sorts of effects this really has on a woman.
I would also like to know what sorts of experiences your
other readers have had in that area. Some of the readers
in this e-mail have alluded to holding strong eye contact
and seducing many women this way."):

I have this incredibly sexy new pseudo-girlfriend. A genuine
Pamela Anderson type. Blonde. Killer body. Huge beautiful
breasts. Gorgeous face. Green/gray eyes. Big mouth with
inspiring lips. Saw her across a crowded parking lot in The
Valley, walking towards a store. Followed her inside.

As I entered I heard the saleswoman say, "I'm sorry, we
don't have any of those."

So I stepped up to the little vixen, gave her a casual smile,
looked right into her eyes and asked, "What did you come
here for?"

"Something for my dog," she said. Then she extended her
hand to shake and said "I'm Cheryl."

I shook her hand and said, "Arte."

We stood there and talked in soft, intimate tones, right in
the entryway, for several minutes. Then we browsed for two
or three minutes, looking at handmade soaps. And then,
about nine minutes after we met, I was standing deep in
her personal space, when I started to lean in for a kiss.

She looked away shyly, subtly thwarting my intentions, and
asked -- definitely amused, not at all upset -- "What are you

I said "I don't know."

Four minutes later, after a bit more browsing and heavy
eye-contact, I slowly and unthreateningly moved to within
six inches of her, squared my body with hers, took her head
in my hands, gently tilted her lips up toward mine, and one
more time, leaned in to kiss her.

My sights locked on target until our mouths were just
inches apart. Then I looked from her lips into her big
green/gray orbs, and saw in those eyes a faint glimmer of
panic mixed with excitement and desire.

There was soooooooooooooooooooooo much chemistry.

It was like slow-motion in a movie.

Ever so softly, our lips touched for the first time.

A long, tender kiss.

Just lips on lips.

Hot breaths.

Then I leaned away to take an appraisal of the situation.

She seemed kinda shocked, but very much okay with what
was happening.

So I leaned in again, and this time licked her lips with my

Then I felt her tongue against mine, softly dancing and
darting into my mouth...

I think I stopped breathing...

And when we broke the kiss I looked deep into her eyes
before I spoke: "Figures I'd meet a gorgeous woman like
you on a day like today. I haven't taken a shower, and I
literally slept in the clothes I'm wearing."

"I haven't showered either," she said with an amused
smile. Then she got a very serious look and asked "Do you
do this all the time? Follow women into stores and start
kissing them?"

I held my gaze steady, looking into her soul, and answered
will all honesty, "No, never."

LESSON #1: Desire

There are five psychological elements of my technique that
enables a man to help a woman achieve her first female
ejaculations and G-Spot orgasms. #1 -- and most
importantly -- is Desire. You must have a burning desire for
the woman, and she must be burning hot for you too. You
cannot fake this. It must be genuine. You cannot simply
have a burning curiosity about female ejaculations. That
will most certainly not suffice. You must be aching to be
sexual with the person. They have to inspire a white-hot
passion in your loins. Call it chemistry, call it lust, animal
magnetism ... call it anything you want -- but it's imperative
that it be a pure, motivating, heart-thumping, blood-boiling
desire to be naked, sweating, swapping spit, and
copulating with the other person.


Peta (
Pussy galore
Guys, if you have ever fixated on a woman and thought  'She's the one for
me'.  Ross Jeffries will put you right.    "There are 10 million vaginas in
the world and you think you can only get one - bullshit!"
By his own admission Ross Jeffries loves pussy.   In fact several times
during the course of his first ever European Speed Seduction» weekend,  Ross
talked lovingly and longingly about missing his kitty.  Any man that adores
felines as much as he does gains ten bonus points from me before he even
begins.  But when he stood before 44 guys and 4 women  Ross wasn't talking
about the kind of furry companion you find in a rescue home or pet shop.
Ross is not a great looking guy.  Prior to the course I'd known him through
the internet for 3 years.  We had never met in person but I'd seen pictures
of him.  I thought he was pretty unspectacular [to be kind] in the looks
department.   As he goes through the group pointing out who would be
successful in internet photo dating he laughs at his own failure to secure
more than one date via this method.
But such is the charisma and appeal of this man that after spending 3 days
with him, I ended up finding him highly attractive. I'm pretty fussy when it
comes to men and I admit that looks are a first draw for me.   So if Ross
can appeal to me without the looks, then he's obviously doing something
I must admit  that when I read lines like 'what sweet revenge' in his
promotional literature, I suspected a touch of misogyny.   Ross disagrees.
"It's just marketing" he says, when asked about such classic lines in his
brochures. "Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get attention!"  It obviously
worked judging by the number of home study units he's sold over the years.
Out of hand and into bed!
Speed Seduction» was born out of  Ross's attempts to turn around his own sex
life  He freely admits  for many years he suffered severe pussy deprivation.
Sex for Ross was to quote him 'always in hand' .  After studying with the
masters of persuasion, including Richard Bandler the founder of  Neuro
Linguistic Programming [NLP], Ross cleverly adapted the principles of
everyday hypnosis and the cutting edge tools of NLP into powerful implements
in the seduction process.  In the process he went from admiring the honey
pot from afar to getting stuck into and fully savouring it's sticky
And before you girls dismiss this guy as a marauding womanizer, he freely
admitted that whilst he's having fun at the moment, he hasn't ruled out the
possibility of a long term relationship.   After all, the guy has a lot of
catching up to do.
Guys attend this course because they aren't getting laid. And I don't blame
them. It's no fun knowing there's all that juicy pussy out there and you
can't have any of it.  Whether you are just in the first throes of exploring
your sexuality or you are looking to develop a long term fulfilling
relationship with one woman, every male has sexual desires and wants to
satisfy them not just in their own company [fulfilling as it might be] but
in the company of an female [This course is designed for heterosexual males]

Reaching the parts looks fail to penetrate
If you are good looking getting laid, pulling, success with women should
come easily to you.   But sometimes even the lookers just can't cut it with
the babes.  And if you don't even have good looks in your favour, you too
may be living in pussy-free hell. So what is the magic process that prizes
open the gateway to pussy heaven?
Women like to feel as if a man is connecting to their soul or put in a less
frilly way, we're suckers for a bit of 'romantic' pitter patter [Yes guys!
use this well and these words will become a self-fulfilling prophecy]  .
Chat up lines like 'you must be made in heaven' aren't going to pierce the
defenses of sassy modern maidens.   But if you can learn to make her feel
connected to you, you'll break down those walls of resistance and allow her
to open up her pleasure pathways as well as yours.  Ross teaches guys to use
powerful language patterns adapted from hypnosis and create very deep
[sometimes literally]  feelings of connection in women.

What a woman needs
Although this course is primarily for guys, there were a couple of other
women in the room.   These feisty forty-something sisters had come all the
way from Miami to see Ross in action.  One of them told me that as the
mother of an 18-year old daughter she wanted to find out what her daughter
might be exposed to.  This was no ordinary mother.  Instead of sending her
daughter to college she was putting her through NLP training.
Gerry had studied NLP herself and recognizes the far reaching benefits of
the underlying skills Ross teaches but I suspect that most 'regular' women
would be more inclined to think of a Speed Seduction» course as threatening.
I don't.   It's true that this material can be used to manipulate weak
people.   But a knife can be used to stab someone or cut bread.  That
doesn't mean that knives should be banned.   The best a trainer can do is to
emphasize the need to use this material ethically.  I think Ross does a
fairly good job here.  When you realize that not all women are bitches and
use this material with integrity you will find it easier to penetrate our
defenses and allow us to feel more comfortable about giving way to OUR
natural urges.
And guys, remember that learning to seduce a woman is only half the story.
After you get us into the bedroom you have to deliver the goods. Once you've
mastered the art of seduction» please please go out and buy books, tapes
videos on female sexuality and how to make great love to a woman and study
them with as much determination as you are studying this material..  If you
do manage to get us into bed, it's because we've been tempted by the menu,
so don't serve up hamburgers when you are offering us caviar and champagne.

Cold-call walk-ups
For many of these would-be seducers the number one fear is approaching a
woman for the first time.   The first rule for 'cold-call seduction or
'walk-ups' as Ross calls them, is getting yourself into the right state.
The right state is something like a designer cocktail of playfulness,
humour, outrageousness and engaging charisma.  Students are encouraged to
develop a sense of humour by watching funny movies.  They are told to think
of walk-ups as an opportunity to play and have fun like one of  Ross's star
pupils who managed to do 200 successful walk-ups in a week.  He didn't get
to have sex with all 200 women, but he did get to talk to them without
getting the old heave-ho.   It's a start.   Mr. Walk-Up Superstar apparently
approached women of all ages, shapes and looks.
Like all skills, the more you do something the more habitual it becomes.  I
encourage my students to see the  world outside as a magical practice arena
and playground and Ross exhorts his students to do likewise.  The practice
started on day 1.  Some motivational courses get people to walk across hot
coals as a metaphor for turning fear into power.  Ross gets his students to
do something outrageous with the same purpose in mind.  The people of
Bayswater might be forgiven for thinking aliens had landed when during the
busy lunch period,  44 guys were rushing up to strangers with extended
hands, pretending to be a Martian called Manny!  If the thought of talking
to a stranger appears daunting, this highly amusing exercise is a first step
to exorcising that fear.
OK, it's great for getting the muscle working but in reality introducing
yourself as Manny the Martian might have a few girls laughing their
stockings off, but it's not the best of chat up lines.  It was obvious that
many of the guys were looking for some great guaranteed-to-work scripted
chat up lines.   They didn't get a chat-line manual, but Ross did give them
a couple of very useful clues on what sort of things to say, and as a woman
I can tell you these methods can work!  After giving them the sample line,
Ross explained how it worked.  The line was
"Do you mind if I ask you an unusual question.  Do you do some kind of
spiritual practice?
Apparently the words 'unusual question' are going to get the woman
curious...and using vague generalized words like 'spiritual practice'
encourages the woman to find her own meaning.  In California where most
women are into something 'spiritual'  be it yoga, colonic irrigation,
crystals or tarot reading, the chances are they'll be nodding their heads
impressed with the perceptiveness and sensitivity of the guy asking the
question.   Very clever stuff.

The 'great state' virus
Developing rapport with a woman is essential to the seduction process. Ross
showed the group how to gain this rapport using the classic NLP technique of
matching language.  The first step is to ask a question that gets her into a
great state and lubricates her vocal chords as well.    His recommended line
is 'What is it about what you do that you find most fulfilling?'.  I was the
willing demonstration subject and I found myself responding to the question
with passion.
As I talked about how much I love my work the powerful words and gestures
flowed freely.  Ross then pointed out to the group my key phrases or 'trance
words'  and how to use them back in such a way that the woman feels
respected and important and begins to think 'here's a man who can deeply
understand my world'.   When you are intent on deepening your under-standing
of  pussy, penetrating and mirroring the female psyche in this way can be a
very potent technique!!

Casanova Pavlov
One of Ross's basic methods is derived from an NLP technique called
'anchoring'. Anchoring works by first generating emotional states that are
more likely to get a woman to open up to sex.  The group is asked to come up
with the kind of states they want to create.   Curiousity, playfulness and
desire all scored high on the list. And the earlier mentioned question about
fulfillment is one way to generate these states.
The secret is to wait till the woman is at the peak of the particular state
and link it to a repeatable physical gesture or sound.  The guys learn how
to use light touch [the neck was one recommended location]  as they talk a
woman into feeling good.   He calls this technique Pavlov's dogs for lovers.
Advanced methods include gesturing subtly towards your dick whilst using
linguistic double entendres such as deep connection, penetrating the soul
etc.  It's pretty powerful when used well.
Giving compliments are also an important part of the seduction process.  And
anyone who knows my work will know I am a great believer in compliments as
long as they are genuine.  We all recognize when someone is bullshitting us.
Ross got me on this one. As he was talking to the group, I laughed. He
looked at me deep in the eyes and said 'You have a great laugh.'  Delighted
that someone had been insightful enough to recognize one of my many
endearing qualities, I blushed and said 'I know', and before I had a chance
to recover from the good feelings he dove in with the words 'It should be
put on a micro chip and placed in an alarm clock so I can wake up to it in
the morning".  Touché.  He'd used the pattern on me and left me feeling
great but also impressed with his cheekiness.

Boyfriend - pah!
One of the standard 'totty' turndowns is  'I've got a boyfriend'.   Ross
isn't put off by that either.  He has created a 'boyfriend destroyer'
language pattern [a language pattern is a way of putting words together to
create certain states of mind and mental actions in another person].   As he
says in his literature 'She's got a boyfriend already! So what, here's how
to knock him out of her mind so fast, it'll make your head spin and get her
focused exclusively on you'.  Of course, once she is focused on you, I think
you have to be able to come across with the qualities she now thinks are
missing in the boyfriend, or else why should she swap him for you?
Once you've successfully got the girl to agree to listen to you, Ross has
'sexual accelerator patterns' designed to and I quote 'bring her to dripping
orgasm in a matter of minutes'.  I'm not sure about this one, but I can
imagine how used in the right way, certain words could boost the sale of
panty liners in women.  But the journey from wet knickers to orgasm in a few
minutes... I'm reserving judgment on that one!

Learning to laugh as you learn
Ross, like me, has experienced the unique training style of Richard Bandler.
To an outsider, Bandler sounds more like a demonic long haired hippy with
painted black nails doing a stand up comedy routine than a highly skilled
genius teaching the finer points of human interaction. What a lot of people
don't realize is that the comedy is designed to relax the learning sphincter
so that the trainer can easily penetrate the depths of the mind and thrust
in a bucketful of positive messages and learning points. Bandler calls this
unconscious learning.  It is a very different approach to the rote learning
most of us have been subjected to in school.
Unconscious learning is great for big-picture people like me who are happy
to sit back and let it wash over me.  Ross has chosen a teaching style that
falls somewhere between unconscious learning and step by step rote learning.
To the more anally inclined, who sit with pens poised waiting to take down
every letter of every word uttered, Ross's stand-up comedy routine and
apparent deviation from the subject matter may be a little frustrating.  But
they are soon rewarded for their patience when he has them taking down
various language patterns word for word.   The purpose behind this is clear
to me.  Ross wants them to know HOW the patterns work.  The danger is that
the detail merchants will see it as a ready made script for pulling which
isn't, I suspect, the intention of the teaching.

Step one two and STOP!
Ross is a Virgo and at times this shows through in his predilection for
detail.  However, he's well aware of the dangers of detail-saturation.  As
he recommends purchasing various tape sets, one guy puts up his hand and
asks 'Do we use these tapes in any particular order and can we listen to
them at the same time'.  I laughed so stridently that despite being stuck up
his own arse, the guy must have heard me loud and clear.
Ross answered by asking him what he did for a living.  I wasn't surprised to
discover our friend was an IT troubleshooter - a job that requires a fully
data-driven anal-ytical mind.  A successful speed seducer has to balance the
need to know every bit of detail with the ability to let go and trust in the
process.  I sense that the more data driven and detail-oriented you are, the
more you're going to have to work on your flow and ability to go with it.
Ross does make the important distinction between just teaching language
patterns and teaching HOW they work.  The challenge is to reach that happy
middle ground between delivering so much information that the student
becomes a walking robotic notebook and so little that they end up wandering
around in a hypnotic trance unaware of what they are doing and how it works.
The potential for success that this course offers is enormous. Many guys who
have studied with Ross have racked up fantastic score rates with women.
Great results will depend on many factors.  As anyone who facilitates other
people knows, some students are ready to take the leap after one session,
others take years.
[Incidentally the longest serving student of personal development of my
acquaintance happens to be tremendously detail oriented and very, very anal.
I am sure that his constant need to scientifically prove it all has held him
back.  So if this is you, beware!]
Super seducer or Puppy dog
I suspect that Ross's success is due to several other factors as well as his
ability to employ his own excellent techniques.  He's very, very funny,  he
has a voice that I wouldn't object to hearing as I am led to hit the roof of
sexual ecstasy.  His posture is superb ['take a yoga course'  he chanted
several times to the group ]. He's made the most of his shortcomings [laser
surgery so he can ditch the 'four-eyes' look and working out at the gym has
helped him develop his once too skinny body into a slender athletic build]
and above all he's got a helluva lot of chutzpah [ask a Jewish friend to
explain!] and is totally outrageous. Ross is also prepared to fail again and
again until he gets a result and he believes totally in his ability to
As I watched one guy being processed by Ross, towards the end of the course,
I thought to myself, this chap will never get lucky with the girls until he
learns to access and harness his sexual energy. He was jerking around like a
jack-in-a-box.  It was as if his energy center were located somewhere
between his shoulders and his chin instead of below his navel!  I not only
smelt desperation, but was reminded of a desperately eager puppy dog.  Puppy
dogs are great to have around, but they don't exactly mirror the idea of
steamy nights between the sheets.   When I'm sussing out men, my sensory
radar is seeking out the quietly growling, tiger-like simmeringly earthy
energy that turns me on..  Language patterns are very powerful, but if a man
is going to get my attention, he's gonna have to send out that
testosterone-laden signal that comes with confidence and a well-grounded
If you are not great looking or a complete klutz when it comes to women,
this course could be just what you need, provided you have developed the
·         A fantastic  sense of humour [ability to laugh at yourself is
·         Good posture [and that reminds me I should take a yoga class
·         An ability to get in touch with your sexual energy and send out
those vibes
·         A great sounding voice
·         A go-for it attitude backed up by self belief and confidence.
If you don't get the results you want from Ross's course, and you are
following his instructions, it may be because you need to work on one of the
above.  If that's the case, attending a flirting day or weekend could help
you in all these areas..and you can choose to Go to information on flirting
playshops now.
As I left the course I couldn't help asking myself 'how can women use
similar techniques to get men to commit'.  When I find that answer, you guys
had better BEWARE because we'll be coming YOUR way with a vengeance!


Brother Marcus' observation made me think of Dennis Faust's rant about
passion at the 2001.06.14
"Passion Works" newsletter, which applies to life as well as work.  Dennis
says that "Passion can be defined as boundless enthusiasm. If you have it
the obstacles you encounter on the way to your goals will seem trivial. Your
energy and emotion will be contagious and you'll find that people will get
caught up in it and go along with you."

I used to spend time with a guy who communicated passion through his gaze.
He was fanatical about sensual pursuits like scuba, nude beaches (or just
any beach), discos and fine dining.  Not only did he have more than his
share of much younger lovers, but women would turn towards him as he walked
by and would even try to pick him up.  This guy was not particularly tall or
attractive, even somewhat overweight, and he had a tendency to get very
difficult if you didn't go along with his plans.  He claimed he didn't do
anything at all to attract women, but seemed to be willing to "talk trash"
to get the ball rolling.

He was Caucasian, but especially liked black women.  At 45 he had a
statuesque 21 year old black girlfriend (that he met at work, no less), and
liked to talk about the time he walked into a reggae club with her in a
black leather miniskirt and every head in the place turned to look at them.
He had a poster made from her photo and liked to take her to the islands to
keep him busy when he wasn't diving.  But not just her - I once stayed with
him in St. Martin and he replaced me the day I left with a redhead he met at
the nude beach.

Now he's older and apparently not so busy.  From studying the methods
presented in this list I'm just starting to understand how he was able to
work his apparently effortless magic.  My eternal gratitude for all your


Dj eclypz:
First of all I want to thank everyone who gave me input into my challenge to
overcome the beauty of a woman. I will say to the person that asked me if I
work around hot women, that I work at a junior college that has an
overabundance of hot women. Everywhere I turn there is another beautiful
woman. Unfortunately, I work there, so I have to tread carefully.

Let me say that I have a piece of advice that has worked wonders for me that
bypassed all of this stuff. I kept thinking I needed to get over beautiful
women and the power their looks had over me. I kept searching and searching
for a way to see things differently in my mind, to imagine them with big
clown noses, anything I could think of, to use my mind to overcome, to use
my mind, to use my mind.

And then I went to a friend's house who has been practicing NLP and Huna for
years now, and we were just talking about something that I thought was
completely different. We were talking about the Hakalau state in Huna, which
is basically an up time trance where you focus on your peripheral vision and
off all internal dialogue. He asked me how I was doing with it, if I had
gotten better at it.

At that point he asked me to go into Hakalau, and he immediately interrupts

"You're talking to yourself, START OVER"

So I assume my state, and again

"You're talking to yourself, START OVER"

This went on like a tr from scientology for about five more minutes when he
came over to me, and guided me through Hakalau, and when I reached a lack of
internal dialogue, he would anchor it. This went on for some time, and he
finally watched me maintain Hakalau for long enough to warrant one more
firing of the anchor, as he said

"Good, now stop jacking off and get laid for Christ sake!"

It all of a sudden hit me, like a flash. I have been trying to use my mind
to overcome something, and by leaning on my mind, I ended up being in my
mind so much that I was interrupting what was happening, and I wasn't truly
paying attention to what was happening outside of myself.

The very thing I thought I needed (to use my mind) was actually getting in
the way!

Now, am I saying to not think? HELL NO. But for me, my definition of
thinking for almost my whole life now has been:

thinking=internal dialogue

Sometimes internal dialogue is a good thing, mulling something over.

But it is death to the heart of anyone if you allow internal dialogue to
take over and loop and loop and loop. It becomes it's own monster growing in
strange ways, distorting perception, much like a schizophrenic.

One more story (quickie). I used to lock the door to my house over fifteen
times a night to make sure it was locked. I was a latch key kid and so I had
to be a protector in a way. So it served a good purpose to consider the
security of the house before I went to bed. But then it took over, I was
stuck in a loop of checking the door over and over again, and it drove me

One night I said enough is enough, and I left the door unlocked that night.
Ever since that night I would lock the door once, and then leave it be.

Now after having spent that time with my friend in Hakalau, I realized that
this behavior somehow had transferred itself over. The internal dialogue
used in affirmations, and visualization served a purpose for a moment, and
then I had to let it go. I didn't up until a week ago.

A friend of mine once said, "The overanalytical nature is the birth and the
death of a great philosopher." I never knew how true those words could be.

Nothing has been the same since...

So if you're looking to find a solution to a situation, and you have thought
about it to the point that you're tired of it, just stop thinking, and start

"Stop Jacking Off and GET LAID!!"

One more thing, I want to prelude my thoughts with a disclaimer. Ross has
discussed this type of thing before, and I'm in no way pretending I came up
with it. It's just that up until now, I hadn't recognized what was
happening, and more importantly, I realized it (made it real for me) through
my life experience.


>Dr. Dennis W. Neder (Commenting on the discussion between Mark and Mystery
>on whether to compliment a woman on her looks):
>This is a very important key here.
>I also strongly recommend that men DON'T compliment women - ESPECIALLY on
>the first few dates! I know that this works for Mark, but I believe it is
>related to his looks and his approach - something that the rest of us don't
>have or use.

I think the issue that people keep missing is: can you compliment
on something that they find unusual and that they have NOT heard of
before and:

IMMEDIATELY move on to something else.

Dr. Neder.....and whoever else wants to jump in...

Do you get my point about IMMEDIATELY moving on to something else
AND complimenting on something unusual....noticing something that
probably no one else has noticed or commented on?

Please get me on this: I TOTALLY get that very beautiful women are
used to hearing it and are bored with it.

Nowadays, when I compliment, it actually starts out with a question.
I have met more women using this approach than I can count.

It's simple. When I spot a woman with a athletic body (which is my
favorite type; I don't like skinny stick-girls with fake titties, but
to each his own) I say, "Excuse the unusual question" (pause for about
2 seconds for effect)...but do you do a martial art? Can you fight?"

Now..this always gets attention. Unless she's very uptight and
super-suspicious (in which case she's ELIMINATED HERSELF) I almost
always (as in 80% of the time) get a laugh and a response of strong

And, oftentimes, in order to find a reason to agree with me, even
if they don't train as martial artists, they'll say, "I do
kick-boxing at the gym".

No matter what their answer, I follow up with "Because you carry
yourself with discipline AND's a very rare and
attractive combination".


I find it perfectly ok to question/compliment a woman on how she
carries herself/how she moves/or intangibles like "her
energy" (although that may be a big Southern California thing and not
work in other parts of the REAL world as well).
>Women CRAVE attention from us and already have heard all the lines about
>their looks. If you keep them wanting that attention, you keep their
>interest level building. This level has to be high to bed them. If you give
>it all away up front, you're never going to get to her.

I agree with the principle, and I think you are carrying this to a
black and white extreme. Who said one interesting and UNUSUAL
compliment (that she would also LIKE to believe is true and that she's
never heard before) is "giving it all away up front".

We're talking about opening up in a friendly way that gets interest
and attention by being unique and different. And then DROPPING THE
>  I've actually had
>relationships (2 years!) where I've NEVER complimented a woman - and she
>just couldn't get enough! In fact, she is married and still calls regularly
>just for some attention. If I were so inclined, she'd be no problem to

I'm sure an unusual compliment that she's never heard before to get
her attention that demonstrates YOU are unique and different wouldn't
have hurt when you first met her.
>Brother Diamond Giovanni:
>Ahem... my patterning ability is not poor at all, by
>the way. I can pattern around about and beyond 95
>percent of you out there and with much flexibly. I've
>been doing it awhile.  When you constantly see a
>woman's eyes strain while talking with you and get very
>antsy then you know patterning doesn't have the effect.

It may well be that what you are saying....

..................................Doesn't Match HER Experience!

If you are rambling on, without the step of gathering information
about her model and map of the world, what makes you think reciting
patterns will work?

What you are saying MIGHT be a total mismatch for what is real,
desirable, actionable, juicy for her.

The patterns are designed to prime the pump.....not to guarantee
the flow of the river or the direction in which it is moving.
>You don't give enough details to know what you are doing wrong, but it is
>pretty clear that you aren't being effective.

He's probably NOT calibrating...watching the actual responses he's
getting and working with them. Might I suggest:
>Her Laughing "I called you over to see what you look like. Where do you

While I agree with alot of Mark's ideas, she's clearly attracted to
his physical appearance. Without that, he wouldn't have gotten so far
so quickly. We less gifted guys have to do more than this, generally
>My Comment:  I know that what you wrote above is going to be read by most
>the guys reading this and they will immediately conclude that you got this
>woman because of your looks and nothing else.  I submit that that was the
>door opener and that you wouldn't have gotten anywhere with her without
>that, but that it was your attitude that carried the ball from point A to
>point B.

I agree.
>You can build rapport with a simple hello.  You need to calibrate, pace and
>really pay attention to the situation before you even make the approach
>(this all happens very fast).

I agree. Especially the calibration part. Today, I was in the
super-market and met this very hot 22 year old Filipino.  I noticed
when I started bringing up the idea of knowing you were going to see
someone again, she got a little bit of an antsy look on her face.

So what did I do?

I stepped back from her about 2-3 feet and she immediately relaxed
and warmed up to the idea!

If I calibrate that the chick is uncomfortable or not quite
getting it, I always MOVE PHYSICALLY back from them. Either step back
or lean back if I am sitting.

Somehow this gives them "space" to consider what I am
saying.....just a thought, guys!
>I totally disagree.  I have lots of 30+ friends who PU all the time.  I'm
>and pull women 18-32.  Age isn't important unless you are foolish enough to
>make it an issue.  Being a guy, being older is a great advantage.  Not for
>chick though...  That's one of life's little double standards.

I agree. One thing: with youngies....23 and under...don't expect
them, for the most part, to do ANY of the work. They aren't like
their older sisters, in that they usually WON'T do the calling, etc.
etc.  Especially older guys.

I'm 42 and have a hot 22 year old on the hook (met her through her
friend and roommate) and one thing I've learned is, you must take the
younger ones by the hand and do all the work, leading every step of
the way. Also, the social-approval factor tends to be much greater in
the younger women. They want to have their girlfriends approve of
their guy.
>look like an average Joe "older" guy).
>How can an average looking "Joe" type of guy like me compete with a PUA who
>the stats of Mark???

You can't...except with a certain KIND of girl.

The younger woman who is HIGHLY suggestible, but wants to think of
herself as having her own tastes and her own right to decide who she
is going to be with....who is highly sexual and yet knows she has
more responsiveness that someone has yet to open and touch.......the
younger woman who may not be physically perfect but is still pretty
damn hot........that is your market....
>   Anyway, an interesting thing happened last night,
>as I was in a restaurant with the group (young adult-college group), two
>guys pulled me aside, (one was the leader and the other was a guy who
>thinks he is hot stuff (he went to Princeton) and said that I was
>a lot of the girls because I was asking so many of them out and that I
>needed to stop

Don't be so sure that these controlling Jesus-freaks (can anyone
say, "I have it in MY family too? Both my brothers are "born
again"..and our family is JEWISH!) are speaking for any of the girls!

I've observed that "managers" and "leaders" don't like to see other
guys poaching on what they perceive to be THEIR pool of women! But
rather than tell you directly, they'll approach you under the guise
of "protecting" the girls.

Let the girls speak for themselves, if they want to!
>I got a lot of crap like if God wants you
>to have a girlfriend then he will provide you with one

Translation: be passive like us; your bold and courageous actions are
a challenge and an affront to our cowardice and passivity!
>  My mindset was as follows: I didn't give
>a crap of what they thought about me.  No matter how they reacted, what
>they did, whatever, I didn't let that affect me at all and due to that
>reason, my mind's processor was freed up to come up with a more
>interesting, entertaining conversation.

Great job! Get out of your own way more often!


Magic Juan:
>Basically this chick has LJBF'd me, but the confusing thing is that what
>says totally contradicts her body language» and the way she acts around me.
>She tells me she just wants to be close friends, but when she is around me
>she tells me she cares for me, has feelings for me, and she is always
>holding my hand, touching, hugging and kissing me, and definitely not in
>way you would behave with a friend. I have ditched her once already and a
>few weeks later she approached me and told me that she still cared for me.
>She doesn't have a BF as she got rid of him a few months ago.
>Now the question is, do I ditch her, or is this her playing hard to get?
>is a model and is used to lots of guys making a play for her. If anyone has
>any suggestions on this it would be appreciated.

Well, you didn't say what it is you want.  Do you want a girlfriend?  A fuck
buddy?  Once and out?  Brothers do this a lot when asking questions on the
list.  Most often I assume it's because they haven't really thought about

You also haven't indicated in what way you've gone after whatever it is you
want.  You've only told us what she does and what she has said.  Where do
YOU play into this?
>>Quite correct, that is not the way I would behave with a friend, but it is
>>also not the way SHE behaves with friends either. I should know because

I behave different ways with different friends; don't you?
>>male friends are my friends and she is generally stand-offish. I don't
>>believe it comes down to not being into sex, but more so the fact that I
>>challenge her own beliefs. The reason I say this is because I am
>>not the type of guy she would normally be attracted to and I know this. I
>>also know that she is attracted to me because she has told me so, and she
>>has also told me that she doesn't know/can't explain why. This confuses
>>and I think scares her a bit also. This is what I believe is the crux of
>>she has LJBF'd me, until she can be sure of her own feelings. If I
>>with her, I believe I would be able to break down that barrier, but I
>>have that much patience with chycks and would rather move onto the next.
>>Does anyone on the list have any good ideas on how to combat this female
>>interruption pattern? Any constructive criticism/ideas would be

Maybe your greatest "barrier" is the idea you must combat this.

Look, it COULD be that she isn't being straight with you.  If, to her, being
friends means you can't have sex, then she isn't.  It also COULD be that she
is fine with having sex with you as friends.  It could be "just friends"
"not my boyfriend" rather than "not sexual".  That would be consistent with
your statement that she is not yet comfy being attracted to you.

I've run into the situation where a chick wanted me to back off and I
mistakenly assumed she wanted me to back off sex and what she was doing was
trying to get me to back off from doing things that made her feel like I
wanted us to be
a couple (not my intention).  It took us a while to figure out we wanted the
same thing.  It could have been faster if we were not "combating" each

Hey, people are not always straight with you about what they want but they
not always so straight with themselves in the first place.  So, rather than
see this as something you want to get her to do, why not simply make an
to clarify the confusions and misunderstandings as her friend?

Let her know that her kissing and hugging you confuses you as to her
when she says she wants to be just friends.  She might misinterpret this as
you don't want hugging and kissing.  Make it clear that you want that part
more and make clear the conditions under which you want them.  If you want a
girlfriend, let her know that a relationship is a condition.  If you want
and out, let her know what you want and that if kissing doesn't lead to sex
you want out.  If you want a sexual friendship, clarify that.
>No, Sir, I do not feel a woman can approach men (a man) in
>a social context, because the other way around is such a strong
>ingrained behaviour, which I think will NOT change in our life time.

Women do approach men.  Successfully.  Often.  And as far as I know
I am living in your life time.

A woman making the approach scores major points with me.  Several
have succeeded in bedding me due to the status they gain in my eyes
even though they weren't women I would have chosen to pursue

If you have not been successful it is because those men, at those
times, did not like your particular approach, coming from you.  I
know this might be hard to hear.  I know it might seem easier to
rally for the idea that "no, no, men just can't be approached".

The excuses you make are the same ones we get from the brothers.
I would give them the same crap about it.

You CAN learn to approach in a way that will make it easier for
the approachee to warm up to you.  Now, toward that end, I must
say you DO make some valid points about GENERAL male
approachability.  I would hope your premise would have lead you
to the idea of "how can I tailor my approach".

I think male approachability (or lack) often says less about what
they want than what they are used to.  I have been guilty in the
past of being tough to approach.  Believe it or not,
approachability is a skill.  It takes practice to learn to be
encouraging, open, inviting; to actually handle some of those
awkward bumbling lines in a gracious way that saves the day for
the approacher.  Few people of either sex get to acknowledge this
skill because women are used to it and men don't get to experience

So, what I would submit to you Mime, if you even want it, is that,
to approach, it would be useful for you to prepare yourself for
the idea that you might have to help the guy with the idea of
being approached at all.  Heck, you probably would even have to
tell him that it's an approach in the first place : ).  [Of course,
when you really get into it, approaches become superfluous.  Then
it's just you talking to lots of interesting guys.  But you get
my point, I hope.]  I know I've been in situations where I felt
a chick was rudely interrupting what I was doing.  Then, I would
stop and realize, first, "hey, she doesn't know I'm in a hurry.
Maybe I should be nicer."; second, "hey wait a minute; I think
this chick is hitting on me.".  A little patience, flexibility,
attentiveness, and forgiveness if you don't get an immediate
positive response might help a lot.
>(Commenting on: "There are only three types of guys in the U.S. that get
>approached by hotchycks: millionaire rock stars, entertainment
>industry moguls, and cokedealers."):

Actually, speed seducers get approached.  Interesting phenomenon.
Especially true the more I approach.  Hmmmm.  Ironic that when I used to
work out all the time I never got approached.  Maybe I was so hot they
were intimidated, heh.


Paul Lee Amorous:
How is being an older guy (I am late 30's) an advantage in being a PUA
(especially if I prefer HB's under 30)???  Just wondering if you live in
North America???  I just went to the movie; "Fast and Furious".  I suspect
many HB's under 30 are into guys that look, dress and act like the guys in
that movie.  How does a guy my age compete with younger guys like that???
Where do these HB's that are into older guys hang out???  I am near Toronto,
>NightLight9 said;
>I totally disagree.  I have lots of 30+ friends who PU all the time.  I'm
>and pull women 18-32.  Age isn't important unless you are foolish enough to
>make it an issue.  Being a guy, being older is a great advantage.  Not for
>chick though...  That's one of life's little double standards.

Also, an open question to anyone on the list.  There are many occasions when
I am about to approach an HB, I first make eye contact and then notice the
HB looks down and away.  I then eject!!!  My analysis is that this is the
HB's subtle way of saying "don't approach"!!!  Any opinions?  Again, I am
thinking that it has to be because of my looks/age (late 30's, average
looks, 5'7" tall)???  Thanks for any opinions!


> Ethereal:
> ... Neal Cassady (one of the most famous characters - a real person - in
> Beat generation, was the basis for the character Dean Moriarty in On the
> Road) is a great seducer to model.  There are lots of stories from various
> Beat literature which describe his seducing women literally in under a
> minute, with few words.  And having multiple girlfriends, etc. keeping in
> mind this was the 40's and 50's!

Yes, Cassady was certainly a legendary figure. (And he was married as well,
I should point out). I recommend reading the "beat"
literature to all seducers. (Just don't drink yourself into an early grave
like these guys did! I mean, it wasn't all that **sex** that killed them.)
> This is where intuition comes into play.  Maybe it's just that I'm the
> "strong, silent type" but it seems to me, in my life, that there are
> of instances re: seduction in which there is already a certain degree of
> what is required to close a woman indicated by her non-verbal behavior at
> the first instance of talking to the girl.
> ......In other words, we're spending so much time
> thinking about ways to verbally develop interest that we're not touching
> upon the non-verbals of the ability to detect interest, ... One of the
greatest pieces of advice my
> father gave me was that if a girl you don't know at all comes up to you
> starts conversation, about anything at all, that you can have your way
> her if you so choose.

Even though I can't cite personal "success stories" along this line, I have
also come to a similar conclusion. I think that the "verbal" component of
seduction is being overstated. Many women seem to respond to a 'strong,
silent' type of guy who knows what he wants,  as opposed to a chatterbox.
(Humphrey Bogart hardly said anything, yet the women continue to swoon over
him). Verbal fluency is, after all, a female trait, so why should that
necessarily become associated with us pinnacles of masculinity? (I am not
denying that for *some* guys, patterns and the like work well. I have used
them occasionally myself, and will vouch that it can be effective. I am just
saying that there are other approaches).

Every so often I've been approached by women whose non-verbal behavior
seemed bizarre.

- As I'm leaving the grocery store and putting groceries into my car (quite
a ways from the store), a cute Asian chick runs up literally out of nowhere,
gives me a long look, and asks for change for a quarter - and then runs off
just as quickly.

- Visiting a beer hall in Berlin, another Asian chick (who certainly wasn't
German) bumps me with her elbow as she walks by very quickly. Might be an
accident, right? A few minutes later, she manages to bump me again the same
way - definitely no accident. But she slips off. Now I'm looking for her,
but she is apparently playing "come find me in the crowd." She manages to
bump me a third time, yet she slipped away again!

- On my way into work one morning, I'm in my car returning a video into a
curbside drop box. Suddenly a cute blonde girl runs up, literally from
nowhere, and pushes her video into the box BEFORE I can put in mine, as if
she were racing me. She actually stuck her hand between my car window and
the drop box, and gave me a long look.

- I take a prescription for new glasses to a place that makes lenses. The
girl who is measuring and fitting me for the frames seems to be taking an
incredibly long time with her measurements, and looking into my eyes.
Gradually it dawns on me (duh) that her interest goes well beyond the merely
professional. She starts talking about how pleasant it would be to take a
walk in this nice weather. But she's wearing an engagement ring, and my
then-gf was waiting for me to have dinner, so I wimped out. I tried to find
her later, without success.

- I sit on a bar stool (or even a seat at the opera!) and a girl
'accidentally on purpose' brushes against me (but doesn't pull back), or
while facing away from me leans backward, pushing her lovely hair into my
face (and also doesn't pull back. Guys **never** do things like this!!). Or
on an overnight train trip in Europe, a girl sitting across from me who I
had spoken to briefly and played hard-to-get nonetheless plays sensuous
footsies with me while we are all trying to sleep.

I think Ethereal's Dad was right, because no other interpretation of this
kind of behavior makes sense. At such times I think that we have just a
brief, flickering moment of golden opportunity. Unfortunately, we never have
even a moment's warning that such an opportunity is about to occur, and
equally unfortunately in that circumstance the logical side of me always
kicks in and I respond to what she "says" rather than what she probably
means. And if we do not handle the matter properly in that instant, that
chance is gone forever.

Maybe what we should do is to "test" the hypothesis: Whenever such a
"bizarre approach" occurs, we should (if at all possible) drop whatever we
are doing and go into 'smooth seductor' mode. In many of these cases, a
determined response would have been required. I think the meaning of this
kind of behavior is: "I'm interested, *if* you're good enough." In such
circumstances, we have to suddenly stop thinking like logical men and start
thinking like playful chicks, who are signaling us that they might be in
the mood for some fun.


> Personally, I would be interested in knowing if there are any AVERAGE
> looking (or even BELOW AVERAGE looking) players in this seduction group.
> What about any guys in the 30 and up age category?  Most of the players
> to be in their 20's (meeting attractive women is much harder when you get
> over 30).

I'm over 50. I didn't even begin to acquire any Wisdom about the opposite
sex until I was almost 40. In the past dozen years I've had much better sex
with much better women than ever before in my life. I'm just 8 years younger
than the father
of my girlfriend, and she's closer in age to my son than to me. She is a
stunningly beautiful Chinese goddess, tall and thin, with very long legs.
Guys approach her everywhere she goes, but she's not interested in them. She
deliberately dresses in dark-colored clothes to discourage them.
> My Comment:  Here's news for those of you who think looks matter:  have
> ever seen a super model with a dorky looking guy (Julia Roberts and that
> goober she married some time ago come to mind right away)?  Ever heard a
> woman talk about how attracted she is to some guy and then when you see
> there's nothing special about his looks?  The reality is that if a guy
> handles her the right way, they see that guy as being good looking.

I agree (although in fairness we should note that the goober Julia Roberts
married was a rich and famous entertainer, which quite effectively cancels
out gooberism).
Any woman falls hard for a man who can bring her to
ecstasy by screwing her like she's never been screwed before. Pretty much
everything else is secondary. (This, I'm convinced, is why in the past
virginity was an absolute requirement for a bride: that way, no matter how
bad a lover the husband might be, she doesn't know any better, and she'll
fall for him. Whereas, if she had previously been bedded by the village Don
Juan, the husband might hear a lot of "not tonight, dear, I have a
headache.")  In the past, I've also been in the position of "the guy who
comes along after the real hot one," and while the woman knows she has to
"settle" for someone else, she doesn't exactly get all wet at the prospect
of making love to you. So (assuming that you are interested in a long-term
relationship), when you "eroticize" a lovely virgin or a semi-virgin (who
has known only wussy lovers), you have done well. Keep her.


Some thoughts on complimenting women.

I think it's really important to compliment women. Everyone likes to be
flattered, however, there are plenty of reasons why compliments can totally
back fire. The first impressions are the most important, and so you need to
calibrate your lady friend.

Firstly - HB 10's know they're gorgeous, if you are not as gorgeous as them,
making a blatant comment on looks immediately allows her to judge you on
your looks. However if like mentioned in the previous letter you subtly
comment and then move on, you score, with the compliment and show her.
you're more than looks.

Secondly - 'Sleaze is a disease.' Have you ever watched a woman walk past a
construction site, and after getting whistled at by some fat builder guy,
turn around and ask him out? Of course not. This could be construed as a
compliment! In the same way, being sleazy» in those first few moments can be
disastrous.  For instance, one of my college friends used to use the line
'Nice tits' in bars. Hmmm... nothing like being up front... He is still
single to this day. Of course, I would hope by now you know enough about
language», congruency, etc. to allow that female to experience your sincerity
through the WAY you compliment her, not necessarily what you say.  Of
I believe that 'humour is a sleaze's best friend.'  I mean, there's a lot to
said for bluntness, and you can carry it off well in humour or even
stories. For instance, the 'Can you believe my sister's friend went up to a
girl in a bar and said 'I'm flooding with desire just thinking about
want me to wrap my tongue around your clit and take you to multiple orgasms
again and again.. Coming ...over and over again to the conclusion that you
just want to fuck my brains out.  Just longing to feel my.. blah blah' What
freakin' nutcase...' approach is a good example.

But really, its a fairly rhetorical debate anyway. A compliment will have
different reactions depending on where you do it, the personality of the
girl, the personality of the PU'er (or assumed personality), the people
around at the time, blah blah. A compliment is a sword in the armory of
'Making her feel good.'  Not all girls will respond well to a direct
compliment, so you should then move on to another weapon in your arsenal.
> >Mark's comments:
> >They do not know you want to fuck them unless you tell them and give some
>sort of hint. Women have told me that if a guy does not tell them what he
>wants they see him as weak and playing games. They prefer upfront honesty
>and bluntness. Even if they suggest otherwise, it's not the case.
>Bluntness is trusted.

Hmm.. yes, but only when you are congruent. Honesty is 10% what you say and
90% how you say it.
>if she hasn't slept with you in the first 3-5
>dates, she probably won't EVER - move the fuck on already!!!

Or get her really, really drunk... haha.. No, but seriously... if a girl
doesn't sleep with me in the first 4 dates I'll find out if she's got some
good looking friends.
I am an average looking guy. Woman never fall for me because of my looks. In
fact I think that if I was really good looking I would fail to appeal to
that strange longing woman have for that soul-mate type lover. Besides,
looks are good for a first encounter, but when you are familiar with someone
they become more attractive, I mean have you ever began to.... hear a song
the first time and didn't like it. But then ... you hear it again,  remember
the tune, and find yourself enjoying the music, maybe even humming the tune,
or singing the lyrics?  I'm a friggin' singalong seductionist...
> > One thing I've discovered is that a woman's physical attractiveness
>doesn't necessarily equate to being good in bed. I recall sarging a fashion
>model who looked like a morph of Tyra Banks and Janet Jackson.  She sucked
>my rod with all the enthusiasm of someone going in for a root canal.  Then,
>she had the nerve to ask was it okay. On the other hand, I met one woman
>who was fat and had all the fashion sense of a Barnum and Bailey clown...
>yet she had a certain Je ne sais pas that made her so incredibly sexy. But
>I do agree that an HB is an HB is an HB... Just a little food for

In my experience, larger women make great lovers...and so do Gemini'
get a Gemini Fat girl and you're sorted...


>Can women approach men?
>Let's say a man approaches ten women, and fails to get what she wants from
>them. Then he concludes that a man better not approach women, because it
>doesn't work!! This seems to be the perspective a lot of women have on
>approaching men. "Oh, well, I tried it twice. It didn't work." But show me
>woman who has approached a hundred men in two month's time, who has not
>been more successful (by her definition; talking, romance, dating,
>than before.
>> As unfortunate as it may sound, most men require looks (not that I'm
> not saying that looks are SUFFICIENT, only that they are
> NECESSARY) in a woman in order for him to be attracted to her,
> whereas men have other tools at hand to create attraction.
>Listen, if it were true that men only go out with the best looking women,
>then 90 percent of the women, and hence also 90 percent of all men, would
>home alone.
>Men WANT very beautiful women -- especially when all else is equal. So, the
>first reaction is to approach the more visually attractive ones. BUT, in
>reality -- hey, just open your eyes --  men also date women with lesser
>looks. These men may still want a prettier woman, the same way a woman will
>find herself attracted to a man who serves her needs much better.

I think you misunderstood.  My point was that men and women
generally have different attraction strategies.  Men are normally attracted
to a woman physically first, while women can be attracted to a man mentally
(emotionally) first more often.  Also, a lot of men (as well as a lot of
women) will settle for someone whom they are not strongly attracted to
physically simply because they don't think they can do better.  If given a
choice, men will tend to go for the most physically attractive women, while
women will NOT necessarily go for the most physically attractive men, even
they have a choice.  Hence, it is not uncommon for gorgeous women (such as
supermodels) to be seen with much less attractive or even plain-looking men,
but you would be hard-pressed to find an extremely good-looking guy with a
much less attractive or plain-looking woman.  Therein lies the fundamental
difference between the ways men and women attract and are attracted to each

My Comment:  While I don't think it will happen to me, I am aware of several
instances where guys who were usually only interested in good looking women,
ended up seriously involved with the facially challenged.  I can't explain
it, but it does happen the other way around.


I would like to know what is the ideal height for a men. I am 174cm tall.
Is it considered short ? How much should the man be taller than the woman ?


>> Whenever I try to apply some sort of a theory other than being myself
>> crash and burn, baby. [...] The bottom line is be yourself 100% and trust
>>your instincts. [...] It's all about doing what is true to you.
>This "being true to yourself" I don't understand. Imagine you are a classic
>geek. How would being 'true to himself', make you more successful with
>women? Mark, can you explain this in more detail? Can you also be more
>specific in what you say (or examples thereof), and what steps you go
>through when meeting and seducing a woman?

O.K. here goes. This is what I mean by being true to yourself. When with a
woman or in any other situation first pay attention to your thoughts and
your feelings. This way you are aware of what is going on in your head. Then
pay attention to your first thought that comes into your head and then
without trying to evaluate it with your rational mind act upon it. For
example, you see a 10+ at a club and you want to approach her. Do not think
about it, just do it. When you go over, if the first thing on your mind is
to tell her she has great eyes then tell her. If you want to kiss her after
5 minutes, then tell her or kiss her. If you think too long about what you
want to do your mind will wander and you may start to think that she may be
there with her boyfriend, you may not be her type, she looks too hot, etc.
Some thought that prevents you from acting. Basically it's going into a
situation without any expectations whatsoever. Your mind is blank but your
eyes remain open and ready to accept whatever happens or if offered to you.

If you still have questions as me some specific questions about this.

Regarding the geek.
If a guy is a geek then he should be the biggest geek that he can be. Do not
but I fully recommend this. Why? He is likely to get shot down but the
experience that he had of failure will spark a flame of change inside him.
If he approaches 5 women and cracks a stupid joke that backfires 5 times he
will not tell the same joke but another one or none at all. He will say
something else until he finds something that works.  He is still being
himself for he feels that pain of failure from his stupid joke and the
desire to find another technique. It's still him but now he says something
different. But unless he was himself at the beginning he could not have
accepted the responsibility of change. Now he feels responsible and
compelled to search for something that works for him. In other words, be who
you are for that will give you feedback on what you should be doing to

I would recommend to all you guys to still keep in mind all you read on
sites, books, tapes, etc. but ultimately pay attention what works for you
and what does not and why. Do more of what works and less or none of what
does not. If telling a woman she looks hot does not work for you then do not
say it, if it does then keep saying it. If telling a woman you want to fuck
her brains out works then do it and so on and so forth.

My technique:
Up front, blunt and to the point. Always cold approaches, never through
introductions. Pay attention to my instincts and intuitions and act upon
them. Never think of what I will do or say next. When a thought comes to me
I do not judge it but act upon it - this works better than all techniques
combined for me. As soon as I meet her I make sure she knows I am interested
in her romantically. I accomplish this by telling her I find her
attractive - no woman has ever walked away from this. Even some married
woman still call me to talk after I tell them I think they are beautiful but
later I find out they are married. Smile at a woman and look in her eyes and
make deep protracted eye contact. Compliment her on her appearance. Tell her
she has class and intelligence. Talk about her interests and points of view.
Tell her some interesting fact or story. Touch them a lot but start off
slow. A light touch on the hand or finger but I make sure she knows I
touched her on purpose and I see how she reacts. If positive then I touch
more and then hold her. When kissing, I give her a hug then kiss her on the
cheek and then see how she responds. If positively, I kiss her on the mouth
and go from there. Sex usually follows. I tell her that I am not interested
in being her friend and that I have lots of friends and my interest in her
is purely romantic. If she feels otherwise then I am ready to walk. I
challenge a woman's opinion and points of view without putting her down.
This makes me look like a man while still respectful of her. I follow my gut
and expect nothing, just want to see where it goes. I say what I want and do
what I want but only when it comes into my head and I feel like saying it.
Joke around a lot and keep the topics light.

Key point - I go to the gym 6 times per week training heavy with weights and
do lots of cardio and I eat a low fat diet. Looks really help but if you
feel you are not that good looking you can still change how you look. Having
a lean face makes you look more attractive. Look at all the top actors,
singers and actresses. They all have lean faces.  By lean I mean low in fat,
not pointed. Buy a bodybuilding magazine and look into one of those ads
where they show men and woman that have gone on a weight loss cycle.  Look
at the before and after picture. All the men and woman that have lost weight
their faces also improve by about 3-4 points. If you eat burgers, fries,
pizza, drink beer and have a gut and never go to a gym and have a fat or
rounded puffy face then no wonder women shy away. Also avoid caffeine, flour
foods and sweets for these make you jittery and nervous and seemingly feel
less confident. When you look good you feel more confident and act more
confident. It's a self perpetuating cycle. Get leaner and get more women.

Anything else?

Here is some communication between me and Doc Love. Interesting response
from him:

Doc LoveYou know your responses to various readers questions seem to always
be in absolutes. For example you claim that if a woman will not passionately
kiss a guy on the first date she is not interested. If she offers to pay
for half the bill she is not interested. If she will not give out her phone
number but will take his she is not interested. You advise men to walk away
from these women since, according to you, a woman should act totally free
and secure because only that behaviour reflects a high interest level. But
have you ever considered that there could be other factors what may prevent
a woman from letting herself go. Maybe she does not want to come off as too
easy or cheap and wants to maintain an image or she wants to protect her
privacy until she develops a comfort level with a man or she believes in
sharing in a relationship. I've had all of the above happen to me yet I
still succeeded in dating and sleeping with women that exhibited the above
behaviour initially. Later they reveal that it had nothing to do with me but
their initial standard of behaviour with all men. So for me it's more about
seeing how things develop rather than removing myself from a potentially
positive situation early on just because at the initial stages a woman did
not exhibit highly obvious sighs of openness and interest. It's a natural
human instinct to remain cautious at the beginning and a long as a man can
intelligently discern between caution and disinterest he will prevent
himself from walking away from a potentially great woman. In fact I would be
a little wary of a woman that expresses total high interest level in me
right away for it may indicate some hidden agenda, ulterior motives, lack of
knowledge of proper social conduct or desperation among others. All not
desirable.I believe therefore the key is to wait and see how things develop
and not dismiss until most facts are present.

Doc Love's response: Wrong - No. 1 Rule Interest Level Cuts Everything.
There are too many Professional Daters and Strokers out there.

My Comment:  You can find out more about Doc Love at


Science of nightclub bouncing studied
By STEVE SAILER, UPI National Correspondent

MOSCOW, June 26 (UPI) -- Late one night outside Munich's Nacht-Café -- a
dance club so exclusive that just a few weeks earlier its formidable
platoon of doormen had turned away German tennis legend Boris Becker for
wearing sandals instead of shoes -- a ferociously drunk man demanded

Denied, the burly drunk screamed threats at the head bouncer from inches
away, then ripped his shirt open to display his powerful pectoral muscles.
The doorman didn't flinch, but his four well-trained subordinates quickly
formed a phalanx behind him. The boss bouncer coolly took out a pack of
cigarettes, tapped one out, lit it and blew smoke in the dangerous drunk's

Intimidated, the screamer slunk off without a fight.

What the drunk couldn't see, though, was that behind the head doorman's
cool façade, his back was trembling. This was highly evident, though, to
political scientist Frank Salter, who was standing behind the doormen
videotaping the confrontation as part of his study of dominance. Salter saw
this a classic example of what "ethnologists" (scientists who study the
biological basis of behavior) describe as the adrenaline-charged
"fight-or-flight" response.

"It's called the 'tremors,'" the leader explained to Salter later. "I can
control my front, but not my back. When my fist sinks into his flesh for
the first time, though, I lose the tremors."

Salter, an Australian Ph.D. now with the Max Planck Institute in Germany,
said he learned during his study in Munich and Brisbane, Australia, that
barroom bouncers are "tradesmen of hand-to-hand combat and social

While hosting a Moscow conference on evolution and human behavior, in
Moscow in June, Salter reviewed the findings of his groundbreaking study.
During quiet times, the bouncers he studied had exchanged tips and
strategies (what Salter calls "social technology") on their three favorite
subjects: sex, violence, and drinking.

"They're more sophisticated on fighting than on getting women," Salter
observed, in an interview conducted June 23. "They engage in very technical
talk about fighting tactics." For example, Salter listened to well-informed
debates over how soon to try to get an opponent down on the ground in order
to "put the boot in" (as Australians call kicking a man when he's down.)

Yet, a good professional bouncer prefers to verbally intimidate potentially
violent drunks.

"Bouncers can all fight," Salter noted, "But they rank each other by their
talking ability. The lowest ranked fought the most. The highest ranked had
the best social skills." Salter found, "The best bouncers and doormen are
articulate and quick with comebacks."

Enormously muscular or tall men don't always make the best bouncers. "Some
Australian bouncers took steroids," Salter said, "But this made them

Huge men are good at intimidating people who are still rational, but after
enough alcohol, some drunks are drawn to challenge especially gigantic
bouncers to fights. Furthermore, the taller the bouncer, the less agile of
a fighter he tends to be.

Managers of tough Australian bars, Salter discovered, labeled rum and coke
as "the fighting drink." The "Cuba Libre's" alcohol loosens inhibitions and
saps judgment, while the sugar and caffeine rev up the drinkers. Beer is
safer for bar owners worried about getting their furniture smashed up
because it takes beer drinkers longer to get drunk. Further, it provides
some nutritional content, which keeps drinkers from getting too hungry and
thus irritable.

While bouncers might not be traditional subjects for scientific study, they
provided Salter with vivid examples of the kind of dominance hierarchies
among humans that Nobel Laureate Konrad Lorenz studied among barnyard fowl
and Jane Goodall observed among chimpanzees. Salter decided to study
bouncers when a friend told him, "Hey, you want dominance, go to

After an initial survey of bars in Brisbane, Australia, Salter moved to
Germany. With Karl Grammer of the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Urban
Ethnology in Vienna, he videotaped 60 hours of confrontations between
doormen and potential customers at the famous Nacht-Café.

Salter found that men and women use different strategies when confronted by
doormen assessing whether they are worthy of entry to the Munich hotspot.
As men turned the corner and began the long walk up to the wall of doormen,
they accelerated, compressed their body speed, and looked straight ahead
trying to avoid eye contact with the doormen until absolutely necessary.

Women, in contrast, looked at the doormen, slowed down, and began flirting.
The more skin they were showing (Salter diligently measured this off his
videotapes), the more they flirted.

The doormen looked at prospective customers' wealth, attractiveness, and
youth. To judge how much money a supplicant had to throw around inside,
they were particularly concerned with his shoes.

Beautiful women were always welcome, unless they appeared from their
excessively skimpy dress, heavy makeup, extremely high heels and slack
posture to be prostitutes.

A man in his 60's could get in if he had a lovely young woman on each arm.
Women of that age seldom even tried to get past the doormen.

There was no racial discrimination, but at some of the bars Salter studied,
the doormen tried to filter out homosexuals, claiming that "Gays confuse
things." Salter translated their logic into ethnology-speak: "This is a
money-making enterprise that profits from people coming for heterosexual
mate choice."


The Prophet - what I say happens:
I'm a good-looking guy in my early thirties. All my life I have had gf's who
don't think measure up to my standards, but slept with them anyway because I
didn't know how to connect with the babes. Six months ago I decided I didn't
want to wank anymore. I was sick of sleeping with women not as attractive as
I knew I could do better! Searching "seduction" and "pick up girls" in the
internet, I discovered Ross Jeffries. His insights on attitude to dating,
being a real man rang a chord in me. I recognized that I was (am) the
biggest AFC despite being athletic, musical, intelligent, well-educated,
multi-lingual, and spiritually in-tune with the cosmos (I believe in a
being....) :-) I feel I have so much to offer a hot babe, but I never knew
to say! I felt compelled to learn patterning. I'm so glad I did.

I live in Germany and have had to translate the patterns I like into German.
haven't learned them off by heart yet, but I'm so encouraged by the results
have been getting. I'm developing my ability to smile and look a girl in the
eyes as I speak to her. I'm beginning to recognize the changes her eyes,
and breathing make when she is moved by the words I tell her. One thing I
yet know is how to touch a woman casually or set and fire anchors

I am such an AFC that I still let opportunities go by, but I'm beginning to
recognize my mistakes of not playing the game when I should and hope to
bagging some real hotties soon.

My current situation is that I'm sleeping with a Brazilian Indian woman. She
married to an extremely unsexual German man. She says she wants a divorce,
considering how she loves sex with me, I can't blame her. She is fun-loving
fun in bed. But I want someone blond. I tell her I just want to have sex
her. She gets so wet! But she talks about a long-term relationship, but here
am with some new techniques to get the woman I desire into bed, and she is
really the woman I desire although the rapport is great.

I went out to a disco with her a few nights ago. When I was there I started
sarging some hotties. She didn't like that at all! Told me I was like a
prostitute going around to all the other women. She told me she felt hurt
like she wanted to puke when she saw me sarging. I suppose I shouldn't sarge
when I'm with her. Any comments?

Last week I was on vacation without her. I sarged a girl in English (yes!)
who I
met at a nude beach. I used the incredible connection pattern, the discovery
channel pattern, the believing the supernatural pattern, and an eyes
She told me she had read that her horoscope told her she would meet a
man/husband that she had had three reincarnations ago! She was ripe for the
picking! I also used trance words and kino'ed her. I also repeated that
pattern about "her pounding burning female place." btw, I popped a boner
lying there naked next to her and laid it against her side. She didn't move
away. After enjoying the sun together, we rode our bikes back to her place
we planned to consummate our meeting. Now comes the weird part. When we got
into bed I lost my erection and couldn't get it back! Her ass was a little
on the big
side. Maybe she wasn't sexy enough for me. I don't know. Any comments?

Another night, a couple of weeks ago, I was at a friend's house. He invited
couple of really pretty, but crazy/flaky 20-year-olds to his place. We
talking about girl topics that patterns are all about. It's like I'm
girl language! Anyway, I wanted one girl, but the other told me she would
with me. I didn't feel like sleeping with her with the real hottie sitting
there. I felt like I had already won the game, and didn't feel like fucking
another stranger, so I left. My question: If I smooth a babe with my words,
decide not to boink her after all, what does that do to my standing in the
hottie's eyes, or should I even care?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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