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She came this close
7/14/01 10:40:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time


2001-07-12 03:51 (New York)

   London (dpa) - A bankrupted executive in England is suing a
pharmaceuticals company and a doctor for 12 million dollars - because
an experimental drug improved his sex life, according to a report
   Richard Davis, 53, who claims his publishing business crashed as he
went off the rails with sexual desire, said: ``I was behaving like a
cross between a deranged sex maniac and a highly over-excited
teenager. For the first time in my life I understood what it was to
have a libido,'' according to the report in The Sun.
   Testifying before the High Court in London, he said he had only had
three sexual encounters and never had full sex before a doctor put him
on powerful drugs in a clinical trial following pituitary glandular
problems in the early 1990s.
   After taking the pills, he told the court, he thought about women
constantly and was driven mad by sexual desire, haunting red light
districts, cruising around hostess clubs and often sleeping with two
women at a time.
   He began a steamy affair in his office with a woman he had
previously seen just as a ``nice person''. He bought porn videos and
behaved ``like a child in a sweet shop'' as he drank heavily, spent
thousands on champagne and made a fool of himself singing in karaoke
   The court was told how he dressed ``outlandishly'' in designer
clothes and a gold neck chain. He became obsessed with his appearance,
which led him to grow, manicure and varnish his fingernails, and
lavished costly gifts such as rings and plane tickets on casual sexual
   Davis, of North West London, ran up huge debts on credit cards. As
well as being made bankrupt, he got into trouble with the law, the
London tabloid reported. He was given a 28-day jail sentence for
assault and was twice convicted of dishonesty offences. He blames his
criminal record on the drugs, too.
   He took one called bromocriptine and also participated in clinical
trials of an experimental drug known as CV205-502, which at that time
had not been licensed for sale in Britain.
   Drug makers Novartis Pharmaceuticals, Camden and Islington Health
Authority and retired consultant Professor Howard Saul Jacobs - who
treated Davis at Middlesex Hospital - all deny liability.


I just wanted to point out an attribution problem: The section beginning
with "I'm over 50." should be attributed to me, and not to"Paul."  (I was
quoting from Paul).

My Comment: Sorry about that!


Several comments on the last post:
On Sisonpyh:
First off: guys, do yourself a favor and get Sisonpyh's book
( I'd like to
give it a better review when I have more time, but for now this will
suffice. Just get it. Believe me, it's a lot healthier and sensible than
other "systems" out there. He's right on target. Yes, you can take what he
says out of context, to "disprove" him, but if that's your goal, fine,
you'll find something. If you look hard enough anywhere you'll find
something. But if your goal is to improve your skills with women, I
recommend that you get the book and read it. Read between the lines too.

On Arte:
Very cool post, man.

Re: Desire. I believe that there's a level of primal lust, primal sex, that
if you're capable of tapping into it (yours and hers) sex naturally follows.

On Peta:
Peta, hi. I'd like to make some comments on your comprehensive post.
>Guys, if you have ever fixated on a woman and thought  'She's the one for
me'.  Ross Jeffries will put you right.

I understand Ross's attitude on this. He wants to install an abundance
mindset. In that respect he's 100% spot on.

I only want to caution not to take his advice in the wrong way. Sometimes
you DO find a woman that blows your mind away, someone with whom you DO feel
an incredible connection, someone you just HAVE to have, and everything
seems to click, everything seems so right and flows so naturally... and you
DO think that she's the one for you. If that happens, please realize that

The point is that you need to be an adult, and if you honestly feel that
this particular woman is right for you, go for her! If you think she's right
for your for the rest of your life, by all means, marry her!...

My belief is that if you meet that kind of woman, and you become nonchalant
about her just because you're trying not to glorify her, you're doing
yourself a disservice. I've seen this with several guys (and myself too!!!)
who talk themselves out of really pursuing a woman just because they're
afraid of being inflicted with Oneitis. That's bull. I know for myself that
missed out at least on 2 or 3 women like that. In retrospect, I was an idiot
for doing that. I followed the common SS "wisdom" on "NEXTing" a woman, and
regretted it.
>By his own admission Ross Jeffries loves pussy.

Interesting that I've never heard from Ross any true terms of endearment.
He's great at breaking down the structure of influence to its most intricate
components, I'd venture say that he's BRILLIANT in some ways, but I don't
recall him EVER speaking in a way that makes me feel that he genuinely loves
women ('genuine' is a key word here). That's just my subjective impression.
>I must admit  that when I read lines like 'what sweet revenge' in his
>promotional literature, I suspected a touch of misogyny. Ross disagrees.
>"It's just marketing" he says, when asked about such classic lines in his
>brochures. "Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get attention!"

Actually, Peta, I happened to agree with your initial observation. It's not
ONLY promotion. I see it in his writing, on his list, all the time. It's
part of attitudes that he instills in his students, and something I had to
work to get out of my system after getting it from him.

My Comment:  I don't agree with this at all.  I don't know if you have
attended any of his seminars and met him in person, but that's just not my
impression of him in the least. I think he went through a period where he
was very angry at women (which, from what I have seen, almost every guy who
got really good at getting women has gone through) but he's changed a lot
since I met him probably about 11 years ago now.  And I don't think if you
have been to his seminars that you would have that impression.

Zvi Continues:
Besides, one's promotional style doesn't come out of a vacuum. There's a
PERSON behind the promotion. Think about it. Would YOU do that kind of

My Comment:  I think you are not understanding his main market.  From the
little I know, they advertise regularly in the back of some men's magazines
and from there they are getting tremendous response.  And that is the form
that is drawing in the customers.

Zvi Continues:
>Speed Seduction» was born out of  Ross's attempts to turn around his own sex

I'm sure that Ross get laid a lot. It's only a very curious fact to me that
the ONLY -- and I mean ONLY literally -- girlfriend we've ever heard of in
Ross' life is Kimmy. I'm talking about in ALL THE YEARS OF SS, the only
girlfriend we know of is Kim. That's an interesting fact.

My Comment:  I personally feel that Ross's personal life is his own and if
he chooses to talk about any of it that's his decision.  We can only
speculate that of all the women he's known, the only one he was serious
enough about to talk about was Kim, and, again, I think that's his business.
I think he's smart to keep this side of his life private -- I know women
appreciate this and respect it that he's not out there doing otherwise.

Zvi Continues:
>The best a trainer can do is to emphasize the need to use this material

Ross doesn't get involved with ethical questions. He leaves it up to his
students. His teaching is (at least proclaims to be) amoral. (That's VERY
different from immoral, btw).
>Developing rapport with a woman is essential to the seduction process. Ross
>showed the group how to gain this rapport using the classic NLP technique
>matching language.

In my opinion by placing too much of an emphasis on the "classic NLP
technique of matching language" people in the NLP world are not seeing the
forest for the trees. I'm NOT saying that Ross does that. I'm saying that
I've seen this a lot in the NLP world in general.

Mirroring and matching language and physiology is SECONDARY. It helps just a
bit to build rapport (I think mirroring language helps more than mirroring
physiology). The MAIN aspect of rapport comes from finding commonalities in
VALUES and in matters you GENUINELY find IMPORTANT in your life and her
life. It comes also from showing a keen understanding of the person's world.
It's not about parroting some key words.

Test this for yourself:
First, talk with someone and mirror and match the person's physiology and
language with great precision, follow the NLP books to the T, but don't pace
their values, beliefs, and commonalities in life experiences beyond what you
parrot to them. Notice the level of rapport.

Then, speak with someone and DON'T mirror and match the person's physiology
AT ALL. Break the NLP rules on that. Don't feed back their trance words. But
find out what is truly important to them, talk about that, speak with them
as if you've known them forever, as if they're your best friends, and find
out actual commonalities in your life's experiences. Notice the level of

I'm sure you'll find, as I have many times over, that the latter will give
you rapport 100X deeper.

Have you ever had a conversation with a stranger, and they happened to
mention something they do as a hobby and you happened to do that same thing
and you just went, "oh wow, you do that TOO?" and the rapport from there on
was utterly different? "Oh, you too scuba dive? me too! Where do you dive?
yea? I've been there... what was that like for you?... blahblah"..
> 'She's got a boyfriend already! So what, here's how
>to knock him out of her mind so fast, it'll make your head spin and get her
>focused exclusively on you'.

A "minor" piece in this: ACTUALLY fulfilling what was
missing in her boyfriend.

If you can ACTUALLY fulfill her, the language is secondary. When you don't
have anything backing that language, your language becomes your MAIN tool of
seduction. IMO, the way to use the language is IN ADDITION to ACTUALLY being
that man, not as a REPLACEMENT of being that man.

If by the time her head gets around from spinning she realizes that you
ain't got the qualities you're portraying (plus you ruined a relationship),
that's an example of a failed seduction.

The seducer has responsibilities. You need to seduce responsibly.

One of your responsibilities is to structure the seduction so that it's
WHOLESOME and EMPOWERING to her. Before you run the boyfriend "destroyer",
ask yourself, "Will this be empowering to her?" (You don't know for sure,
but you can make educated guesses, and the Golden Rule helps too).

If it won't, move on lover-boy.
>Ross does make the important distinction between just teaching language
>patterns and teaching HOW they work.

To Ross's credit, he's one of the few in the NLP world that actually does
that, and very well. In that respect, he's an EXCELLENT teacher.


(This is in response to the posts that advocate
working out, losing weight, in the hopes of improving
one's chances with women.)

I understand the rational behind of those who
advocate losing weight, going to the gym to build
muscle to attract women, etc.

I'm sure that is very sage, standard advice, but I don't
do any of those things and have a sex life most guys
would be envious of.

I'm not a little overweight, I'm fat. I drive a shitty
old truck that is in need of a paint job, and dress in
T shirts and jeans (faded crappy jeans).
I rarely spend money on women.

I am a Speed Seducer. And one who uses Ross's
technology with an acute vengeance for the last seven
years. At 45 I am just now hitting my stride.

Here is a short list of some of my accomplishments in
the area of seduction.

Kelly, 32 married ex-model. Looked like a young Victoria
Principal. 1993 nailed her with stacking realities
pattern. Six months of very hot sex.

Anne, 30 nurse. Masochist/tattoos/piercing
slender cute. black hair
Was my first full blammo seduction. I took her to pick
her kid up at school. Wound up finger banging her in
the parking lot, thinking to myself  "this shit works"
We fucked a few times, then moved on.

Joan, 29 mountain climber/professional dominatrix
5'10" black hair, 150, sleek, very fit body
She made a small fortune spanking businessmen. Wanted
a dominant man to set the pace and provide balance.
I did and we were an item for close to an year. She
was bi sexual and I played with some of her friends

Maria, 24 professional dancer (not some loser stripper -
she had a position in a professional dance troupe) and
was in dental school at UCLA.5'4", 115, hot.
 She was into older, smart men.
Hated young guys. BTW, an older guy shouldn't dress
young or act like a kid to attract younger females.
Those who like older men are after you for your
experience, etc. Anyway, this girl loved sex, anal
bondage even hot wax in her ass, pussy and nipples.

Linda, stock broker, 43, 5'7", 128, long hair brown.
Liked spending money on me. I like that too. A very
beautiful woman.

Jessica, 20, 5'1", 100 pounds. Stripper, adult movie
actress. Do I need to say more?

Cindy 41, 5'4", 130, blond, 38 d cup.  Pierced clitoris,
submissive. Loved to wear lingerie for me. Wanted to
marry me.

Karen, 34, African American. 5"6", 133.  Executive in an  IT company.
Is/was obsessed with me. She still contacts me after a
year of being broken up.

Cheryl, 36, psychologist. 5'9", slender/big tits the most
sexual woman I've known. Very generous.

Julie, 19, student. Lesbian. Didn't like guys,
but felt a connection with me.

And there are others.  Over fifty.

What do I do? I create incredible connections. I open
the doors to passionate, erotic flights of escape.
I'm not like anyone they have ever met before. I am a
timeless, romantic wanderer who melts emotionally
starved women stuck in boring marriages or with dull,
safe boyfriends. I offer intensity. I make a woman's
heart pound with anticipation of my visit.

You want to get laid?
Learn Speed Seduction» like a martial art. Drill,
practice, repeat. Care enough about your sex life to take the time to become
truly adept.

Learn how to create powerful overwhelming states of
desire in the women you desire.
Focus on her unconscious needs and not your dick.

Though I don't use patterns very often, I do use and
adhere to Ross's model of seduction/hypnosis. I give
his system the credit for my success.


Magic Juan:
>>I would like to know what is the ideal height for a men. I am 174cm

I hate to break it to ya dude, but you are so screwed.  Chicks
HATE metric guys.  Any baby knows that real men are measured in
feet and inches.  Convert now before it's too late!


Dr. Dennis W. Neder (
>>Dr. Dennis W. Neder (Commenting on the discussion between Mark and Mystery
>>on whether to compliment a woman on her looks):
>>This is a very important key here.
>>I also strongly recommend that men DON'T compliment women - ESPECIALLY on
>>the first few dates! I know that this works for Mark, but I believe it is
>>related to his looks and his approach - something that the rest of us
>>have or use.
>I think the issue that people keep missing is: can you compliment
>on something that they find unusual and that they have NOT heard of
>before and:
>IMMEDIATELY move on to something else.
>Dr. Neder.....and whoever else wants to jump in...
>Do you get my point about IMMEDIATELY moving on to something else
>AND complimenting on something unusual....noticing something that
>probably no one else has noticed or commented on?

Let's differentiate the (well-made) points here - you're talking about an
"ice breaker" and not specifically a compliment - something specific and
directed; and you are correct! What I'm talking about is a pure (often
inane) compliment - "Hey, you have the most beautiful eyes" or "Honey, what
a great body you have", or "Gee - I'll bet those tits are real", etc. These
ice breakers will work against almost everyone but my buddy Mark.
>Please get me on this: I TOTALLY get that very beautiful women are
>used to hearing it and are bored with it.
>Nowadays, when I compliment, it actually starts out with a question.
>I have met more women using this approach than I can count.
>It's simple. When I spot a woman with a athletic body (which is my
>favorite type; I don't like skinny stick-girls with fake titties, but
>to each his own) I say, "Excuse the unusual question" (pause for about
>2 seconds for effect)...but do you do a martial art? Can you fight?"
>Now..this always gets attention. Unless she's very uptight and
>super-suspicious (in which case she's ELIMINATED HERSELF) I almost
>always (as in 80% of the time) get a laugh and a response of strong
>And, oftentimes, in order to find a reason to agree with me, even
>if they don't train as martial artists, they'll say, "I do
>kick-boxing at the gym".
>No matter what their answer, I follow up with "Because you carry
>yourself with discipline AND's a very rare and
>attractive combination".

On the other hand, a comment regarding something specific about her IS an
appropriate opener. Your "martial arts" opener for example. Another for that
cute waitress - "It takes real grace to balance all those drinks - are you a
dancer?" or for the woman in the bookstore, "Gee - you must be pretty
smart - I've read that book [you're looking at] and it's full of big words!"
The point being to avoid complimenting her looks - something so trite she's
just going to roll her eyes.

Another important key here guys - don't dwell on the opener. It's only there
to have an excuse to talk to her. Otherwise you look like you have nothing
else to say and your approach (instead of your little solder) is blown.
>I find it perfectly ok to question/compliment a woman on how she
>carries herself/how she moves/or intangibles like "her
>energy" (although that may be a big Southern California thing and not
>work in other parts of the REAL world as well).

Comments directed to any of these are great openers particularly because
they are observations - not vacuous appreciations. The former coming off as
strength and awareness where the former just seems childish.
>>Women CRAVE attention from us and already have heard all the lines about
>>their looks. If you keep them wanting that attention, you keep their
>>interest level building. This level has to be high to bed them. If you
>>it all away up front, you're never going to get to her.
>I agree with the principle, and I think you are carrying this to a
>black and white extreme. Who said one interesting and UNUSUAL
>compliment (that she would also LIKE to believe is true and that she's
>never heard before) is "giving it all away up front".

My point here is one of posture. Having a strong, confident approach is the
key. If a true compliment is used, "You've got the most beautiful eyes...",
you're instantly waiting for a reply  - letting HER carry the conversation -
and she knows it. You're much better off getting off the opener (as already
mentioned) and moving on toward the close.
>We're talking about opening up in a friendly way that gets interest
>and attention by being unique and different. And then DROPPING THE
>>  I've actually had
>>relationships (2 years!) where I've NEVER complimented a woman - and she
>>just couldn't get enough! In fact, she is married and still calls
>>just for some attention. If I were so inclined, she'd be no problem to
>I'm sure an unusual compliment that she's never heard before to get
>her attention that demonstrates YOU are unique and different wouldn't
>have hurt when you first met her.

Again, I differentiate the person-directed opener from a compliment. Guys,
the opener is a critical part of the overall technique - one you're going to
have to master. But it isn't a big deal. As I suggest in my book, stay away
from the compliments, find a commonality (like the martial arts, grace, or
intelligence ideas before), and move ahead with the goal of securing a home
phone number or more.


(Commenting on My Comment: "I also have
known guys who were really good looking (one of whom was constantly being
picked by women when he joined a dating service) who couldn't get a second
date if their life depended on it.  So while the reports here from good
looking guys may be considered not as useful as those from not good looking
guys who are successful, I think what you really need to focus on is their
attitudes as that is what is taking them to the success they are having."):

John Eagan, who wrote a book on dating (I don't remember the title, but I
am sure many in this newsletter are familiar with his book) cited an
experiment where woman looked at a group of men thru a one way mirror.  They
then ranked each men according to looks.  Not surprisingly, certain men were
at the apex of the pyramid.  Then the women were allowed to talk to the men
for ten minutes.  The woman were then asked to rank the men again on looks.
Surprisingly, the men who were not ranked highly to begin with but evidently
said the right  things when speaking with the women now were at the top of
the totem pole...their way of coming across had made them more attractive.
The resume may get you the interview, but it's what you say during the
interview that gets you the job.

I tell AFC's all the time about Rasputin.  But they always scoff and doubt
(AFC's love to wallow in their own self pity).  Brother Rasputin had crumbs
in his beard, dirt in his fingernails and smelled of his own feces and yet
seduced every rich, beautiful and married young woman of the Russian
aristocracy. Many of the women in the aristocracy felt very constrained and
uptight, and Rasputin offered a way out.  Before Ross Jeffries boyfriend
destroyer pattern there was Rasputin's technique of invalidating a marriage
by "patterning" them by saying if they were not happily married, then they
were not truly married at all.

Once, when in college, I went to the library to research what
men had who were with pretty women.  In a couple of academic research
projects I looked at, it stated that couples were evenly matched in the
department; in other words, good looking  men were more often than not with
good looking women.  If there were exceptions, the survey said it
was the men who got better looking women because of "monetary or power
In other words, they took the very position that society and the AFC's
already held!  To my frustration though, I would see short, fat, balding,
middle aged men all the time with real stunners, and I knew none of these
guys were rich or powerful.  Even people in academia get it wrong!


Paul Lee Amorous said:
>Also, an open question to anyone on the list.  There are many occasions
>I am about to approach an HB, I first make eye contact and then notice
>HB looks down and away.  I then eject!!!  My analysis is that this is
>HB's subtle way of saying "don't approach"!!!  Any opinions?  Again, I
>thinking that it has to be because of my looks/age (late 30's, average
>looks, 5'7" tall)???  Thanks for any opinions!

OK, according to most body language» books, looking down and away means
completely the opposite - almost an open invitation to approach! Looking
straight away to the side is considered more of a rebuttal though. If
you really want to test this, it's then generally thought that if she
looks back in around 45 seconds she's definitely hoping you'll come
over! But what were you doing just watching her for 45 seconds? You
should have been straight over there as soon as she looked away!
You might have noticed I used words such as 'according' and 'generally'.
This is because I don't really buy into or use much of this eye-flirting
stuff. I don't like being in typical 'pick up' environments, where you
stand by the bar with your beer looking around at the girls seeing which
one is giving you the eye. But definitely don't be deterred if she looks
down and away! Consider it a welcome mat!

(Kevin said):
>I would like to know what is the ideal height for a men. I am 174cm
>Is it considered short ? How much should the man be taller than the
>woman ?

Hmm, why is this so important to you? I presume you see other men
around, you must know if you are short or average or tall. You see girls
with guys. Are they all in a certain 10cm range? Say I tell you that in
a survey women said the ideal height for a man is 189.6cm (I just made
that up). Does this help you in your seduction? Would you put on some
high heels or spike your hair up? By all means fret about your physique
and hair style as you can change these to make yourself more attractive
(as much for self esteem reasons as anything else) but I hope that you
don't find out what the 'ideal' height is. Don't spend time worrying
about stuff you can't change. How much taller should the man be than the
woman? If you find out this golden ratio will you then go around only
seducing girls that are properly proportioned to you? Don't worry so
much if she will have a problem with your height, if you won't have a
problem with her height, then just go for her!


>The secret is to wait till the woman is at the peak of the particular state
>and link it to a repeatable physical gesture or sound.

As I have learned from Tom Vizzini (, you do
NOT have to get the peak of a state to anchor! Not at all! As long as you
get the state WHILE it is still accelerating, you can anchor it ANYWHERE in
terms of
intensity and turn it up at any time, using your own state, physical
movement and intent!
>I suspect that Ross's success is due to several other factors as well as
>ability to employ his own excellent techniques.  He's very, very funny,  he
>has a voice that I wouldn't object to hearing as I am led to hit the roof
>sexual ecstasy.  His posture is superb ['take a yoga course'  he chanted
>several times to the group ]. He's made the most of his shortcomings [laser
>surgery so he can ditch the 'four-eyes' look and working out at the gym has
>helped him develop his once too skinny body into a slender athletic build]
>and above all he's got a helluva lot of chutzpah [ask a Jewish friend to
>explain!] and is totally outrageous. Ross is also prepared to fail again
>again until he gets a result and he believes totally in his ability to

She likes me! SHE REALLY LIKES ME!

Actually, the last thing she mentions is really the first thing: the
willingness to risk and put it on the line.

At first you force yourself.  Then you get used to it. Then, finally,
you start to CRAVE it! "It" being putting yourself on the edge, at
risk, trying new approaches, avenues, ways.
>As I left the course I couldn't help asking myself 'how can women use
>similar techniques to get men to commit'.  When I find that answer, you
>had better BEWARE because we'll be coming YOUR way with a vengeance!

Smart and self-esteeming men will only "commit" when they are
sufficiently IMPRESSED and after they feel they have had sufficient
experience and variety both to know when that time is AND to know who
that person is who can and will impress them. Otherwise, they aren't
"committing"...they are defaulting!

I actually think that it is NOT the case that men are "afraid" to
commit; it's just that they inherently sense or instinctively sense
they are not ready in terms of experience to satiate their need for
variety.  Or experience in terms of being able to make a judgment that
is wise and sound.
>II This went on like a tr from scientology

"TR" stands for "training routine" in Hubbardese for those who don't know.
>  for about five more minutes when he
>came over to me, and guided me through Hakalau, and when I reached a lack
>internal dialogue, he would anchor it. This went on for some time, and he
>finally watched me maintain Hakalau for long enough to warrant one more
>firing of the anchor, as he said
>"Good, now stop jacking off and get laid for Christ sake!"
>It all of a sudden hit me, like a flash. I have been trying to use my mind
>to overcome something, and by leaning on my mind, I ended up being in my
>mind so much that I was interrupting what was happening, and I wasn't truly
>paying attention to what was happening outside of myself.

Or rather, your definition of "mind" was purely internal dialogue
instead of imagery that moved you to action!
>The very thing I thought I needed (to use my mind) was actually getting in
>the way!
>Now, am I saying to not think? HELL NO. But for me, my definition of
>thinking for almost my whole life now has been:
>thinking=internal dialogue
>Sometimes internal dialogue is a good thing, mulling something over.

Yes. You have said it!
>Ross has
>discussed this type of thing before, and I'm in no way pretending I came up
>with it. It's just that up until now, I hadn't recognized what was
>happening, and more importantly, I realized it (made it real for me)
>my life experience.

Yes, I have. And you see, to those who knock my work as being too
complex or unnecessary, I have to say to them, "You are giving guys
some good and sound advice about what CAN work. But you aren't
leading or guiding them through the process of self-transformation
required to make ANY advice work!"


Here is something interesting from that link I sent you (Ray Gordon's
site  This comes from the "29
Reasons" book, section #4 "She Likes Baby Talk";

Ray Gordon's text below:
The best example I can think of comes not from USENET, but from 1991, the
first time I studied the moves of a player in depth. One specific example
stands out. We were at a restaurant, and he began flirting with the

    Him: Hey, how ya' doin'? (his patented pickup line)
    Her: Not bad.
    Him: What's your name?
    Her: Lisa.
    Him: Is Lisa relaxed tonight?
    Hey: Not really.
    Him: Lisa looks like she's been working all day. I bet Lisa wishes she
were home already. Doesn't she?
    Her: Yeah.

The reason I am posting the above is that I think guys like Mark (i.e. great
looking young guys) can do very well by not using SS or MM.  In fact, I
notice many guys seem to get great rapport with HB's by using "Baby Talk" (I
notice this most at bars and at work).  Maybe it is just a case of saying
anything vs. saying nothing....


Sisonpyh (how d'ya pronunciate that anyway?) made some good points about

I tried the internet dating thing on a number of occasions... crashing and
burning like the Hindenburg over Hiroshima every time.  I would get the
girl's interest, have her open up and she would broach the idea of our
meeting, but first she wanted to see my picture.  I'd send her one and that
would be the last I'd hear from her.  The last time, I posted an NLP-heavy
ad on a singles' board.  One woman invited me on the chat line and she just
kept going with a steady stream of lines like "Wow... why aren't you
married?" and "You're definitely my type."  Finally, she wanted my photo.
When she got it... she went offline and disappeared forever.


A while back, I went out to a martini bar with my gay buddy (gay guys make
the BEST wing men) and plopped down in the middle of a group of four
Scandinavian HB's who were having a chat fest.  I politely commandeered
conversation and kept them going for almost a half-hour.  My problem was I
couldn't figure out which one I was interested in and my sarge attenuated.
After they left (to meet some friends on the next leg of their bar crawl) my
buddy sat back and said, "Wow... you're so smooth!"  Maybe I turned him on
more than the HB's?  But seriously folks...

I segued over to the bar and wound up sarging a drunken HB who was nearing
the end of her bar crawl.  We were making great progress when a friend of
hers came over crying over some guy that killed it (I felt like Mr. Big when
Miranda comes crying and drags Carrie away).  So, she felt compelled to
leave with her sniffling girlfriend.  D-OHH!!!  Finally, I turned my
attention to one of the bartenders.  She refused to let go the seven magic
digits but she did give me a hug and a kiss as a consolation prize.   I was
ready to go elsewhere to try some more, but my buddy was getting too drunk
(he had nothing to do except sit and watch and drink) so I had scrape him
off the floor and get him out of there.


Here is a new adventure:
We got a hot new cleaning lady at work who doesn't speak a word of English.
Well, she has been flirting very heavily and even brought me a gift.  At
first she wore the standard cleaning lady attire but now she comes to clean
my office dressed to the nines... in nice outfits and with jewelry.  She's a
rather attractive HB who gazes with me with her deep brown eyes with that
"rip my panties off with your teeth" look... but I keep thinking of the
episode of Seinfeld where George bangs the cleaning lady, so I've just
played her off.

The end of last week she was trying to tell me something but I had worked a
LONG day and couldn't handle translating Spanish in my brain.  She wrote
something on my memo pad that I didn't understand, so later that evening I
was out with a buddy who is a native Spanish speaker and he translated.  It
was like a declaration of sincere love.  I thought, hokay... time to make a
decision... should I play CROUCHING DRAGON LADY, HIDDEN SAUSAGE with her or
what?  My buddy cautions that she may be trying to get a green card or
something.  Advice?

And, if that weren't enough...

I was at a convention today where I saw the most amazingly beautiful woman
in a colonial style dress with fan in hand.  She was dressed that way to
attract attention to her company's exhibition booth.

After a little fluff talk, I asked for her number.  She replied, "You mean,
my BUSINESS number?"  I answered, "I find your business fascinating" and she
provided her info.

Well, at some point... I will prolly either call or email her... so I want
to work out an appropriate sarge that enters through the door she left open
(her business) and segue over to some monkey business.



David Johnson ( - NLP & SS):
>I think the issue that people keep missing is: can
you compliment
>on something that they find unusual and that they
have NOT heard of
>before and:
>IMMEDIATELY move on to something else.
>Do you get my point about IMMEDIATELY moving on to
something else
>AND complimenting on something unusual....noticing
something that
>probably no one else has noticed or commented on?

Ross is spot on.  Complimenting on beauty is good if
it works for you, but she probably has heard it.  Why
not be unique?  My last two at-bats, I used this

1) First one (moving target on the street): Commented
on this silver bracelet she was wearing, told her 'You
have alot of personal style' - created a great
conversation/rapport - she owned a kids' clothing store
where she made clothes.
PERSONAL STYLE (compliment) = fashion/originality =
clothes designer.
She made the leap, so I didn't have to.

2) Second one (clerk at a jewelry shop):
Me: 'Can I give you a compliment?' PAUSE
Her : Ok (smiling)
Me : You have a great sense of fashion.  The fabrics
and textures you are wearing say alot about you'
Her : smiling and stunned.
Me : running the 'intuition about you' pattern. 'I have
an intuition about you.  You are very visual, aren't
Her : Oh my God! Are you psychic?  I work in the
fashion industry designing clothes!
SENSE OF FASHION = fashion/originality = clothes

Funnily enough, these were in two different countries
- coincidences.  Point is - they made the connection.
I don't believe that a 'beauty' compliment would have
evoked the same response.
>Nowadays, when I compliment, it actually starts out
with a question.
>I have met more women using this approach than I can
>It's simple. When I spot a woman with a athletic body
(which is my
>favorite type; I don't like skinny stick-girls with
fake titties, but
>to each his own) I say, "Excuse the unusual question"
(pause for about
>2 seconds for effect)...but do you do a martial art?
Can you fight?"
>And, oftentimes, in order to find a reason to agree
with me, even
>if they don't train as martial artists, they'll say,
"I do
>kick-boxing at the gym".

Again, Ross is on the money - 'in order to find
reasons to agree...'.  READ THAT AGAIN!  This is so
very important.  I have recently started to use the
Grapho-Deck on women.  I cannot tell you how many
times they agree with my analysis.  Why?  Am I
psychic?  Do I really think it works %100?  Nope.
Something else is at play here...
For example, I analyzed a girl I know that and told
her she was a procrastinator (even though she is one
of the most organized and time-conscious people I
know.  In fact, she hates people that procrastinate!)
Guess what, she agreed with everything I said, even
the procrastination comment.
So what happened?  She started to think of any
situation where she might have "X'd" (the trait I
examined) and equated this with the handwriting and
therefore made it true.
(INDUCTION DEFINITION : The act or process of
reasoning from a part to a whole, from particulars to
generals, or from the individual to the universal;
also, the result or inference so reached.)

Women (and some men) want to believe that someone
knows something about them (possibly hold power over
them?), that someone has the power to look right
inside and see their soul!  Why do you think they love
Astrology and believe in Fate and Destiny?

It reminds me of an experiment that the Great Randi
did a few years ago.  He handed 30 'psychic analysis
sheets' to 30 different people.  Each of the people
had to discuss whether the 'psychic analysis' was
right or wrong.  Almost everyone said it was 'right
on!'.  Guess what, all 30 analyses SAID THE SAME
We want to believe (like Mulder says).


David Johnson (DJ):
>Some thoughts on complimenting women.
>I am an average looking guy. Woman never fall for me
because of my
>looks. In
>fact I think that if I was really good looking I
would fail to appeal
>that strange longing woman have for that soul-mate
type lover. Besides,
>looks are good for a first encounter, but when you
are familiar with
>they become more attractive, I mean have you ever
began to.... hear a
>the first time and didn't like it. But then ... you
hear it again,
>the tune, and find yourself enjoying the music, maybe
even humming the
>or singing the lyrics?  I'm a friggin' singalong

I was thinking about this:  If you use a pattern like
'Have you ever just felt like you were going to see
someone again?' and couple it with asking about their
favorite song, a song that they just cannot get out of
their head.  'You know what it is like when you have a
song going round and round in your head?  You start
humming it. (Actually start to hummmmm)  A tune, LIKE
A VOICE/IMAGE that comforts you?  And when you try to
push the song/voice/image aside, it becomes stronger?
As it follows you all day like a warm companion/lover.'

Now, is it possible to create a synesthesia between
SOUND and IMAGES like in the above?  Is it recommended
or should I stick with the SOUND/VOICE?


> J:
> Question for you to ask Mystery:  I have become quite good at
> drawing chycks and if he were this artist, how would he incorporate the
> sketchbook angle in with the stripper rules??
> I can only work from photos - so I am unable to draw on the spot. I
> assume that this can replace the Photo Routine of Mystery's??
> My Comment:  We'll wait to hear from Mystery, but in the meantime I used
> do the drawing thing myself (I have a BFA and my focus was on drawing).
> Contrary to you, one of my strengths was drawing portraits live.  I am not
> sure how much I recommend this angle, better I think to tell them you'd
> to draw them and maybe arrange a sitting.  Problem with this is that it is
> indirect, impersonal and anything like that always blows up in my face
> (here for example) the woman looking at me as "the artist", but not as her
> man.  I crash and burn when I am indirect, unless I smell that the women
> attracted to me then it doesn't really matter what I do.  I think if I was
> doing this today, I'd use it as something to do on a date - 'hey, how
> you come over and I will draw you?'  Of course, the prospect of nude
> modeling hangs in the air.

This comes untested (I can't draw).  Why not bring some drawings and look
through them while you're there at the club?  A girl is sure to ask you
them (even if she just wants to ask to start a convo that ends with you
giving her $20 for a lap dance).  I would work the angle that  "I come to
study the human form.  I'm not interested in a lap dance, but thank you.  I
just look so I can learn and get new ideas for my work.  I think the human
body is so interesting and powerful.  Sexual, and at the same time so much
more."  Later: "That's just the kind of guy I am.  I can see the skill
that goes into performing.  It takes a real presence to project.  A lot of
inhibited people can't see that, like a lot can't understand my art."  Don't
try to get them to pose or even hint at the opportunity.  If no one bites
first time, come back again.

It will take practice and possibly a little patience, but I think this is a
pretty good angle.
> Dinsdale Piranha:
> I have been sarging at a local church group (not looking for sex but
> relationships using all of the Jedi powers of you, Ross, Mystery, NYC
> and Maniac.  I have approached about 8 girls in the span of two months
> in this group (averaging about one a week) and number closed about two.
> I have become Yoda as far as approaching groups with guys and using all
> components of the MM.  Anyway, an interesting thing happened last night,
> as I was in a restaurant with the group (young adult-college group), two
> guys pulled me aside, (one was the leader and the other was a guy who
> thinks he is hot stuff (he went to Princeton) and said that I was
> a lot of the girls because I was asking so many of them out and that I
> needed to stop.  I basically
> told them that I didn't care if I was, and then I thought to myself that
> you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.  So I backed off and
> said that I would chill out.

Sounds, like you basically have figured this out, but you can't ask out
girls in the same social circle without them telling each other.  That means
you need to be prepared.
To your good friends, say: "God helps those who help themselves.  And I
believe that takes more than just a few minutes talking to someone to
determine if you would want to spend time with them."
However there are a couple other takeaways here that you may have missed:
1) The fact that they said you were "disturbing" indicates you have
something that is not working right.
2) Are you asking on dates?  We don't say "don't ask girls on dates,"
because we want to get laid not go on dates (at least that's not why I say
it).  We say it because it doesn't work that well.  Ask them for coffee or
run some errands.  This is less pressure and more fun.  It can move further
if you want it to.
3) If you are getting rejected 6/8 times in a setting where you already
have some shared ground (like a church group), you  need to work on your
attract phase.


Brother Sisonpyh is so right. He nailed it right on the head with his

When you try to use an approach that is not true to who you are then you
will only achieve limited succeeds. To take his analogy further, imagine
that you drive a Lamborghini but you do not see any value in the fact that
you drive such an outrageous car. You see a Jetta that you really like you
pull down your window at an intersection and tell the Jetta driver that he
has a nice car. He will look at you and think that you are kidding and that
you are not serious about his car. He will drive away insulted and think you
are not really interested in his car. Now you have two choices. Either
pursue him and tell his you really love his car to make him believe or only
tell other Lamborghini drivers you like their cars in order to be taken

This is exactly what has been happening to me as I could not understand why
one woman after another would say that I could not possibly be interested in
them and that I must have lots of women on the side. I am forced to show
them that I am truly interested in them right away and shower them with
attention and be highly sexual right away. This gets their attention and
they feel accepted by me and wanted. Recently I've had a woman tell me that
she loves how I talk dirty to her and that she now needs to bring several
pairs of underwear to work because she wets herself whenever I talk to her
on the phone at work. She tells me she plays with herself in the washroom
and masturbates at night when I talk dirty to her on the phone. All this
within 1 1/2 weeks of meeting her. For a long time I've had serious esteem
issues and downplayed myself and my abilities.

Now this is exactly the opposite to what most dating coaches suggest but
this approach really works for me. I will not venture out to say that I am
right and others are wrong or that my approach is better than others. All
that we need to understand is that we all are different and our approaches
must reflect who we are in order to be successful rather than trying to use
someone else's. It seems that many guys who subscribe to internet sites and
advisory e-mails are most likely average to below average and most advice is
catered to them. This level of advice really does work well for them. It
seems that there is a paradox here that guys that do well with women do not
necessarily feel the need to contribute to these or read therefore we never
get their techniques or methods which are radically different from what an
average guy would do. The above average guy can seemingly get away with
putting on sexual overtones right away without fear of rejection for that is
expected of him. If he does not then a woman feels as if she is rejected by
him and in turn says "You are not interested in me". The average guy cannot
use the forward approach because he must impress her with his personality
and other qualities first. But the above average guy must also possess a
personality to go from point B to C.

I think the reason that acting somewhat disinterested in a woman the average
guy places more value on himself this way. This makes him seem above average
if he does not show he is desperate and shows he has a life. He brings
himself up to her level and then she is ready to accept him. If an above
average guy does the same she already assumes that he has things going
around for him so when he plays aloof she thinks he is disinterested in her
and she leaves for not wanting to be someone's 2nd choice. That is why the
above average guy needs to shower her with attention and acceptance. Now
unless she feels that she is at his level he can be a little aloof and still

It seems that in order to succeed with women the man needs to figure out who
he is first and what makes him tick. Start with you first and then figure
out who you are. Try different methods and techniques and see what works for
you. If you are naturally right handed you can learn how to write with your
left but you will never be as good as you are when you remain right handed.
I would suggest also to try to go after women that are more like you or at
least create a sense of familiarity with them so that they feel they are on
the same level.


Tom Vizzini (
August 17-19 Essential Skills Seminar Chicago
London Essential Skills Seminar this September
Ultimate Masters Seminar this October in Atlanta
Advanced Anchor and other Sneaky Stuff videos now available)
> Sisonpyh:
> On the topic of looks:
> If you're a good-looking guy (defined as some combination of handsome,
> tall, etc.) then you have a definite advantage in the opening game over
> who are ugly, short, out of shape, etc.and

I disagree.  If what you want to do is convince people who aren't
walking models that they are at some type of disadvantage because of
genetics I think that's a really shitty thing to do.

In reality there is a whole lot more than these two extremes.  Where you fit
into them has a whole lot more to do with what you decide rather than what
you were born with.  Your analogies assume one thing that I know not to be
true.  That is that women are shallow and stupid.  This is a huge mistake.

From all the women that I have talked to many seem more attracted to
who seems interesting rather than pretty.  Many seem to be more attracted to
attitude rather than looks.  I have seen more good-looking guys strikeout to
average looking guys who are interesting and have an attitude.
> What works in an initial approach is relative to the context...
> Here's an analogy:
> If you pull up next to a Ferrari 360M in your VW Jetta and say "Hey great
> car, can I go for a ride in it" it's a lot different than pulling up in a
> Lamborghini (which has more horsepower and is more expensive than the
> Ferrari) and saying "Hey great car, can I go for a ride in it?"
> Are you with me here?
> The fact that you are wrapped in something that is perceived as being
> to or better than their wheels makes you an instant rapport candidate.

Where do come up with this?  Again I totally disagree.  It has
never been my experience.  What you are saying is that unless we were
genetically gifted that we will never be accepted as an equal or have

Now you say several more things here that I strongly disagree with.
> Same goes for humans. If you're a handsome guy (and make no mistake about
> this, women know) you'll have far more instant rapport with women when you
> say "You're beautiful."

This is totally wrong.  If the first thing you say to most women is "You're
beautiful" then one thing truly happens.  You get categorized as the type of
person who only knows one lame approach.  You also get categorized as
someone who doesn't notice anything else about them other than how they
look.  In other words, you get lumped in with 1000 other guys.  This happens
no matter how you look.
>If a woman guesses that you're the kind of guy that
> attracts a lot of women, as a rule-of-thumb she'll be more open.

Whose rule of thumb is this?  I have never found this to be true.
> If you're
> not on her level looks-wise, she'll be more likely to think "He's telling
> that I'm beautiful in a 'he worships me' kind of way" as opposed to
> "He's a hot guy, and he's telling me this as an equal."

Again I totally disagree.  Your presupposition here is that the only way to
be perceived as an equal by a beautiful woman is to be a "hot guy".  This is
not only insulting to men but also to women.  You realize that anybody who
is less than hot who is reading this now thinks the only way they can get a
woman is to be good-looking?  Is this a really how you want people to feel?
> I've seen this in person over and over and over again with my guy friends
> who are handsome. They can tell hot women how hot they are all night long
> without losing any of the magnetism. But it doesn't work so well for the
> more normal and average looking guys I know. (I also want to mention that
> attitude and approach are also powerful forces. A regular looking guy can
> get a great response if his game is good, too, but good looks open up the
> game much better overall).

Again, no.  What average or normal looking guys are you
talking about?  Looks do not open up the "game" much better at all.  I asked
Kim about this.  As a woman she probably knows about this stuff.  Being
absolutely drop dead gorgeous will buy you about 30 seconds.  Anytime in
that 30 seconds any good-looking guy can screw it up by not having the right
state, attitude, or language.  So I would say looks play a minor role at
> There are other factors that play into this 'instant rapport' and openness
> idea. i.e. It's a lot different asking a model out on a date if you're the
> photographer that's taking pictures of her as opposed to a guy that she's
> never met who walks up to her on the street.

What does this have to do with anything?  Yes, it is a lot easier to ask
someone out that you already know vs. somebody you have never met.

What I am reading is a bunch of excuses for failure.  I'm so sick of hearing
that good-looking guys have all the advantages and unless you're
good-looking you'll never be able to get the same impact as someone who is.
That is ridiculous.

The way people are perceived goes far beyond their physical appearance.
Your energy, attitude, confidence, playfulness, openness, state and several
other things have a much more profound impact on someone whether they are
male or female.  I would like to think that when I walk into a room that I
can have any affect that I want on any person in there.

Here is what I will say.  Men who are well groomed will have a much better
chance than someone who isn't.  No woman is going to spend an hour getting
dressed, putting on makeup and fixing her hair and then find someone who
doesn't have the common courtesy to trim his nose hair attractive.

I'm going to assume that the effect of your post is unintended.  The
message you seem to be projecting was that you should only approach women
who are your equal.  To approach someone who is better looking physically
will leave you at a disadvantage.  You'll always lose to the better looking
guy.  I personally don't like those messages.  I also believe them to be

My belief is that I can connect with any person in the room no matter how
they look because inside my mind I know that I deserve to be with anyone and
I deserve to talk to anyone.  I walk into the room and everybody is my equal
and there is no one who is better than me.  If I walk up to a beautiful
woman I am doing her favor by talking to her.  This doesn't make any of
those things true.  It does get considerably different results than what you
> I've identified 8 distinct personality styles that attract women most
> that's 8 different personality styles). And even this, of course, is a
> generalization... the real number is infinite.

I'm getting a migraine.  Which women specifically?  You can never get three
women together to agree on what is attractive.  Based on the rest of your
post unless we are classically handsome it won't matter anyway.  Why would
you spend so much time on physical appearance and then mention personality?
> I think my real objective here was to say to all the guys who are newer
> unsure of what to do that you need to get out there and try things (and,
> course, read my book - ha).in

If you really want to sell a book I suggest you make people feel better
about themselves rather than worse.
>Experiment with what you read on this list, but
> don't take any of it as the word of God. The best thing you can possibly
> is make friends with several different guys who are good with women and go
> hang out with them and watch what they do in person. There's nothing like
> seeing it live.

Really is that in the BEST thing you can think of doing?  Sure, why try to
develop the skills necessary to build connections?  Why bother learning how
to build rapport?  Why bother learning how to calibrate?  Why bother
learning how to anchor good responses?  Why bother learning how to use and
embedded commands and tonality?  I would personally rather learn a skill
watch Biff buff boy hit on women all night.

Like I said I'm sorry this has to be something where I disagree so
strongly but I think it's a whole lot healthier for men to believe that they
are the equal of any woman rather than a slave to their genetics.
> Ross:
> >Dr. Dennis W. Neder (Commenting on the discussion between Mark and
> >on whether to compliment a woman on her looks):
> >
> >This is a very important key here.
> >I also strongly recommend that men DON'T compliment women - ESPECIALLY on
> >the first few dates! I know that this works for Mark, but I believe it is
> >related to his looks and his approach - something that the rest of us
> >have or use.
> I think the issue that people keep missing is: can you compliment
> on something that they find unusual and that they have NOT heard of
> before and:
> IMMEDIATELY move on to something else.
> Dr. Neder.....and whoever else wants to jump in...
> Do you get my point about IMMEDIATELY moving on to something else
> AND complimenting on something unusual....noticing something that
> probably no one else has noticed or commented on?
> Please get me on this: I TOTALLY get that very beautiful women are
> used to hearing it and are bored with it.

This is a great point.  As I mentioned in the previous post, it has nothing
to do with looks - it has to do with categorizing yourself as someone who
notices the same things that everybody else does and they are bored with it.

Complimenting women works great.  As long as your complimenting is first of
genuine and second unique.  The complimenting is not ass kissing.  It is
> Nowadays, when I compliment, it actually starts out with a question.
> I have met more women using this approach than I can count.
> It's simple. When I spot a woman with a athletic body (which is my
> favorite type; I don't like skinny stick-girls with fake titties, but
> to each his own) I say, "Excuse the unusual question" (pause for about
> 2 seconds for effect)...but do you do a martial art? Can you fight?"
> Now..this always gets attention. Unless she's very uptight and
> super-suspicious (in which case she's ELIMINATED HERSELF) I almost
> always (as in 80% of the time) get a laugh and a response of strong
> curiousity.

I have seen Ross do this in the almost always get a favorable response.  The
main reason is that this is not a sexual question.  It is a question about
who they are and what they enjoy.  One thing that Ross does really well
is notice. He will notice unusual jewelry.  He will notice unusual tattoos.
He will notice unusual shoes.  He will notice unusual eyes.  And the
questions he asks are not compliments but honest observations.
> And, oftentimes, in order to find a reason to agree with me, even
> if they don't train as martial artists, they'll say, "I do
> kick-boxing at the gym".
> No matter what their answer, I follow up with "Because you carry
> yourself with discipline AND's a very rare and
> attractive combination".

This is SOOOOOOOOOOO important. It makes what you said not a compliment but
an observation that opens a door. I have seen him do this with great
> I find it perfectly ok to question/compliment a woman on how she
> carries herself/how she moves/or intangibles like "her
> energy" (although that may be a big Southern California thing and not
> work in other parts of the REAL world as well).

I can attest to this as well.  I saw Ross try some of this in Atlanta and it
fell flat on its ass. Know you environment.
> >You don't give enough details to know what you are doing wrong, but it is
> >pretty clear that you aren't being effective.
> He's probably NOT calibrating...watching the actual responses he's
> getting and working with them. Might I suggest:

Calibration is one of the most vital skills we teach. Get out of your head
and notice the responses you are getting. This means opening you eyes,
ears and energy more than your mouth.
> I agree. Especially the calibration part. Today, I was in the
> super-market and met this very hot 22 year old Filipino.  I noticed
> when I started bringing up the idea of knowing you were going to see
> someone again, she got a little bit of an antsy look on her face.
> So what did I do?
> I stepped back from her about 2-3 feet and she immediately relaxed
> and warmed up to the idea!
> If I calibrate that the chick is uncomfortable or not quite
> getting it, I always MOVE PHYSICALLY back from them. Either step back
> or lean back if I am sitting.
> Somehow this gives them "space" to consider what I am
> saying.....just a thought, guys!

This is a great observation and use of calibration. Notice what works and
pay attention to what doesn't then make an adjustment. Some guys just notice
something doesn't work and just freeze up or walk away. That just means they
need more choice in the directions they go.  Luckily for Ross he has lots of
experience to back up his choices.
> Kevin:
> I would like to know what is the ideal height for a men. I am 174cm tall.
> Is it considered short ? How much should the man be taller than the woman?

What? Why are you going to restrict yourself to some standard height ratio?
There is no "should."  Forget about it and go have some fun!


(Referring to Peta's review of the SS Seminar in London):  It's good to
learn about the amazing capabilities ("pussy galore") and the pearls of
wisdom coming
with many of the SS-shells. Did you refer to my recent post where I stated I
am sarging - well let's say 50 HB's a day? So am I Mr. Walk-Up Superstar? Or
is it someone unnamed for other reasons? If you referred to my post.. you
are perfectly right. I am one of Ross's pupils although from the free stuff
I was able to get and followed this here discussion for about 2 and a half
years which brought me lots and lots of insights and change. Because of you,
Ross, I am reasonably confident (which I found is the best thing I have
learned) and able to talk to LOTS of women making sarging a most pleasant
game. You should (or should not) have seen me three years ago: Wimpy. Now
I'm on my way at least and there were months and months of
laziness=depression for me.
Of course there is a lot of bragging going on on this list but I promise you
brothers, if you follow Ross's advice by heart and develop your very own
character, pussy will be with you. We all gotta be strong and hang on and DO
IT. Approaching, I mean. The first step into the realm of all human
pleasures. We all must smile our little smile to become ultimately happy.
Join our circle RAFC's (see
Http:// as my
contribution to this community; not flawless but free). Honestly and as an
independent person I guarantee you that Ross's material can unleash your
girl-getting power and that you will thrive on it if you use Ross's
and advice. It worked the long way for me. Remember this: SARGY.
He has a lot to share with us. Buy his stuff! Do it. It's you who can make
the world a
better place and meet and seduce the prettiest and wittiest women. It's so
hot out there!

There are many occasions when I am about to approach an HB, I first make eye
contact and then notice the HB looks down and away.  I then eject!!!  My
analysis is that this is the HB's subtle way of saying "don't approach"!!!
Any opinions?  Again, I am thinking that it has to be because of my
looks/age (late 30's, average
looks, 5'7" tall)???  Thanks for any opinions!

Let me guess - with your first glance you check IF you could approach the
thing, right? Done wrong, when you smile and open your mouth a little that
triggers her listen mode. From then on you can think of something to say.
I often find myself doing the listener action for some reason and have to
look down/rapidly close and open my eyes myself because I'm stuck or bored.
BTW the rapid eye close and open is a fantastic way to communicate openly
with your face. When you reopen your eyes you can put on any facial
expression (like boredom, anger, shyness, surprise) and see the result.
Start with an open face and forget your Inner Dialogue.


> Sisonpyh:
> Here's an analogy:
> If you pull up next to a Ferrari 360M in your VW Jetta and say "Hey great
> car, can I go for a ride in it" it's a lot different than pulling up in a
> Lamborghini (which has more horsepower and is more expensive than the
> Ferrari) and saying "Hey great car, can I go for a ride in it?"
> Are you with me here?

Very much so.  This is a great analogy (I've often used the used car
dealership as a great example of rules to PU, but that's for another email).
Back to your point:  How do you combat the problem that you don't have a
quarter of a million dollars to spend on a Car?  One way you do can do this
is to be very personable and knowledgeable about the cars (as if you've been
in contact with a lot of them), more versatile, but not the instant result.
Another is to rent one and act like you own it (sounds like pivot, no?).
Another is to buy a 15 grand motorcycle with the same kind of cache (the
15 - 20 grand motorcycle (Triumph, Bimota, some Ducatis, Agusta) has the
same cache to many people).   None of these are as good as a Lamborghini,
they beat drooling.
> I have made friends with a whole bunch of guys who are great pick-up
> artists. The funny thing is that they all have completely different styles
> and different types of women they're attracted to, etc. I actually can't
> believe how different they are, and how different their approaches,
> lines, attitudes, etc. are. (Incidentally, none of the great pick-up
> that I know try to convince anyone that their ideas are better than other
> guys' ideas.)

I agree although there have been common veins in all of them.  How about
this:  All the great Master PUA I have known have been very outgoing.  All
the PUA's I have known have been good at talking to men as well as women
(maybe not as good though).  All of the master PUA's I know have really
enjoyed the "game" (even thought they bitch about it).  There are other
common elements that have been common but not a rule.  Most of the Master
PUA's I have known have been good at sports (I believe that this builds a
lot of the rapport that is necessary).  Most of the Master PUA's I have
have had parents who were very personable.  Most of the Master PUA's I have
known have had a some level a low self esteem that they would try to combat
by nailing beautiful women (not that they didn't really like sex, too...),
> Women do approach men.  Successfully.  Often.  And as far as I know
> I am living in your life time.
> A woman making the approach scores major points with me.  Several
> have succeeded in bedding me due to the status they gain in my eyes
> even though they weren't women I would have chosen to pursue
> otherwise.

NightLight9:  I had sex with a hottie last night who approached me yesterday
afternoon.  It was a pretty cool close.  I was at the beach and she asked me
if it was my motorcycle parked on the sidewalk (I'm thinking I'm about to
yelled at for parking on the sidewalk).  We talked about bikes.  She turned
out to be biker chick.  Sport bikes at least...  Lots of convo (2 hours or
so).  Anyway, I invited her back to my place for some dinner, and this is
where I screw up. She agrees, but then as I'm giving her directions to come,
I  gave her my number in case she got lost.  She said, "or I'll call you
when I can make it over and we should get together another time."  So I know
she's not coming (believe me guys, this means she's not coming).  She had
said she was parked a long way's away.  So I waited about 5 minutes and then
headed in the direction she was going.  I saw her walking and pull my bike
up right next to her.  Took off my helmet and said "Do you like Salmon?"
She said "Yes" and I said "Good, because that's what we're having."  Smiling
and very confident.  She said "OK I'll be there in 20 minutes."  I said
because I need to stop and get some veggies."  She was there before I was.
started cooking and we ate salad and crepes until the salmon was done.
When I took the salmon out, she cornered me in the kitchen and needless to
say it got cold on the counter.  She was my first Ex-stripper.
The key takeaway above was that I pulled up next to her, I assumed the sale
in a happy friendly way.  If she wasn't so confident though, I would have
been dead in the water.
> I think male approachability (or lack) often says less about what
> they want than what they are used to.  I have been guilty in the
> past of being tough to approach.  Believe it or not,
> approachability is a skill.  It takes practice to learn to be
> encouraging, open, inviting; to actually handle some of those
> awkward bumbling lines in a gracious way that saves the day for
> the approacher.  Few people of either sex get to acknowledge this
> skill because women are used to it and men don't get to experience
> it.

Yup, approaching and closing is an art.  I think that many women need to
realize that they can approach and still be feminine.  In fact, I think it's
a requirement.  The girl above approached, but I had to close, then when we
got to my place she waited a long time before jumping me.  From the Tao of
Steve: Women want to get laid, it just takes 15 minutes longer.  So if
you wait 30 minutes longer than you want, they'll be attacking you.
> Also, an open question to anyone on the list.  There are many occasions
> I am about to approach an HB, I first make eye contact and then notice the
> HB looks down and away.  I then eject!!!  My analysis is that this is the
> HB's subtle way of saying "don't approach"!!!  Any opinions?  Again, I am
> thinking that it has to be because of my looks/age (late 30's, average
> looks, 5'7" tall)???  Thanks for any opinions!

If a chick looks down, that's often good.  I say approach and see what
> O.K. here goes. This is what I mean by being true to yourself. When with a
> woman or in any other situation first pay attention to your thoughts and
> your feelings. This way you are aware of what is going on in your head.
> pay attention to your first thought that comes into your head and then
> without trying to evaluate it with your rational mind act upon it. For
> example, you see a 10+ at a club and you want to approach her. Do not
> about it, just do it. When you go over, if the first thing on your mind is
> to tell her she has great eyes then tell her. If you want to kiss her
> 5 minutes, then tell her or kiss her. If you think too long about what you
> want to do your mind will wander and you may start to think that she may
> there with her boyfriend, you may not be her type, she looks too hot, etc.
> Some thought that prevents you from acting. Basically it's going into a
> situation without any expectations whatsoever. Your mind is blank but your
> eyes remain open and ready to accept whatever happens or if offered to

The problem is being one's self really means being comfortable, congruent
and confident in your actions.  You still have to make your actions
something people would want to spend time with...
> Regarding the geek.
> If a guy is a geek then he should be the biggest geek that he can be. Do
> laugh
> but I fully recommend this. Why? He is likely to get shot down but the
> experience that he had of failure will spark a flame of change inside him.
> If he approaches 5 women and cracks a stupid joke that backfires 5 times
> will not tell the same joke but another one or none at all. He will say
> something else until he finds something that works.  He is still being
> himself for he feels that pain of failure from his stupid joke and the
> desire to find another technique. It's still him but now he says something
> different. But unless he was himself at the beginning he could not have
> accepted the responsibility of change. Now he feels responsible and
> compelled to search for something that works for him. In other words, be
> you are for that will give you feedback on what you should be doing to
> succeed.

I declare shenanigans...  He may not need to stop being a geek, but he needs
to become an attractive geek and this means becoming someone else.  Then he
can JBY.

My Comment:  "JBY"?


This week I tried a little experiment just to see to what I extent I could
say the most outrageous things to women and see whether I could get away
with it.

I saw the woman that I mentioned in my last post this past weekend, the one
that I walked to on the street and called gorgeous. When I arrived at her
door she became extremely nervous and started shaking and later admitted
that she felt nervous because of my physical stature and my extreme sexual
energy as she called it. All I really did was touch her when I first saw
her, I held eye contact and gave her a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. We
went to a restaurant and in the middle of dinner I said "I want to kiss
you." She said "Not now, but maybe later" but she admitted that I exuded
huge amounts of sexual energy and that made her excited and turned on. I
told her I was only interested in her romantically and did not want to end
up as friends. After dinner we were driving and I rubbed her finger with
mine and she rubbed it back. We arrived at a park to go for a walk and held
her hand as we walked. About 15 minutes into the walk, I hugged her and
kissed her on the cheek and then on the lips. We kissed passionately for
about 10 minutes and I grabbed her all over. We continued like this for the
whole night. She came this close to taking me home. She said that she never
kisses a guy like that on a first date, just a kiss on the cheek or sleeps
with one either. She said that her body wanted to fuck but her mind kept
telling her to wait so as to not feel guilty about it in the morning. I did
not want to pressure her. All week we talked on the phone at night and I
kept telling her how I would fuck her, lick her pussy and make her cum. She
loved it and played with herself on the phone. She told me that she did not
wear any underwear to work for two days after our discussions. We are
hooking up this weekend again. I told her not to wear any underwear or bra
underneath her dress. Her response was "Yes, sir" with a smile. I saw
another woman that I slept with a few months ago that works in my building
at an office BBQ outside. I walked up to her and said "Hi, you look so hot
today I would like to take you into the bushes and bang the shit out of
you." She laughed and said sure but at her place not here.
I realize that this works extremely well for me and I am able to exploit it
to the highest level. But for some reason I am able to get away with it. But
when I say it I do so with a smile in a playful manner and try to be as
polite and articulate as possible. It seems to work extremely well.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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