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"Grandma thinks I’m the mack"

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Grandma thinks I’m the mack
7/18/01 4:52:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time


I suspect when these emails get too lengthy that a lot of your email
accounts reject them and the number of bounced emails I get back goes up.
If those of you out there could give me some guidelines as to how many bytes
these emails should max out at, I will in the future keep them to that
limit.  This week I separated out the comments (below) from everything else
(which this week were two long and appreciated contributions from Sisonpyh)
and sent out two emails.  Your comments on this are appreciated.


Welcome to new subscriber Paul who's free site
is dedicated to having success with women. Check it out!


>My belief is that if you meet that kind of woman, and you become nonchalant
>about her just because you're trying not to glorify her, you're doing
>yourself a disservice. I've seen this with several guys (and myself too!!!)
>who talk themselves out of really pursuing a woman just because they're
>afraid of being inflicted with Oneitis. That's bull. I know for myself that
>missed out at least on 2 or 3 women like that. In retrospect, I was an
>for doing that. I followed the common SS "wisdom" on "NEXTing" a woman, and
>regretted it.

Yes. I agree with this. The important thing is not to "glorify"
someone in your imagination, PRIOR to actually getting involved!
Lots of idealists (like myself) have to fight this tendency. I guess
we are what Sisonyph would call "intuitives"; we think in terms of
concepts and ideas rather than being "sensory". We WANT to like
people for inner qualities as well as the sensory fun they bring us.
We are "connection" and "admiration" hungry as much as we are for the
sensory pleasures.

So, guys have to be careful to watch this tendency to idealize or
create things mentally before they become real.  Idealizing a woman
is a great way to rob yourself of the required aggression and clarity
to get things really going.
>  >By his own admission Ross Jeffries loves pussy.
>Interesting that I've never heard from Ross any true terms of endearment.

Well, in what context? When was the last time you hung out with me
or came to a seminar?  One filters what one doesn't want to perceive.

I think you're angry at me for the spanking I gave you on the SS
list, Zvi. It wasn't personal. It was my duty as a teacher.  I'm
sorry if it was unpleasant and now you feel hurt and mad.
>He's great at breaking down the structure of influence to its most
>components, I'd venture say that he's BRILLIANT in some ways, but I don't
>recall him EVER speaking in a way that makes me feel that he genuinely
>women ('genuine' is a key word here). That's just my subjective impression.

Well, since you are my judge, Zvi, and I have to get you to like
me, here goes: "I love women".

Now....judge my candor in making that statement since you are
sitting in judgment of me in general.
>  >I must admit  that when I read lines like 'what sweet revenge' in his
>  >promotional literature, I suspected a touch of misogyny. Ross disagrees.
>  >"It's just marketing" he says, when asked about such classic lines in
>  >brochures. "Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get attention!"
>Actually, Peta, I happened to agree with your initial observation. It's not
>ONLY promotion. I see it in his writing, on his list, all the time. It's
>part of attitudes that he instills in his students, and something I had to
>work to get out of my system after getting it from him.

Now, this is totally incorrect. You are letting your anger at me rob you of
your integrity and in doing so you are saying more about yourself
than you ever could attempt to say about ME.
>My Comment:  I don't agree with this at all.  I don't know if you have
>attended any of his seminars and met him in person, but that's just not my
impression of him in the least.

If he's read my list either and honestly evaluating he wouldn't say
it. He's angry at me because I corrected him on my list, as did Tom
Vizzini by the way.  Some people are willing to lie when they feel
angry and hurt.
>Zvi Continues:
>Besides, one's promotional style doesn't come out of a vacuum. There's a
>PERSON behind the promotion. Think about it. Would YOU do that kind of

Gary Halbert. Dan Kennedy. Jay Abraham. Ask THEM. Then come back
and ask me. Oh, ask my buddy, Joe Polish, one of the most successful
marketers around.

If you want to debate marketing with me, you'll lose on that
end as well.
>My Comment:  I think you are not understanding his main market.  From the
>little I know, they advertise regularly in the back of some men's magazines
>and from there they are getting tremendous response.  And that is the form
>that is drawing in the customers.
>Zvi Continues:
>  >Speed Seduction» was born out of  Ross's attempts to turn around his own
>I'm sure that Ross get laid a lot. It's only a very curious fact to me that
>the ONLY -- and I mean ONLY literally -- girlfriend we've ever heard of in
>Ross' life is Kimmy. I'm talking about in ALL THE YEARS OF SS, the only
>girlfriend we know of is Kim. That's an interesting fact.

What's "interesting" to me is when people think they
are cleverly hiding their innuendo by making veiled accusations that
they can then step back from and deny.

It's amazing that they don't clearly see how transparent the tactic is.

But I have mercy on these people, so I'll give him a hint:
Have you ever seen me mention anywhere how much money I've made and
make with Speed Seduction»?

Maybe, by your innuendo, that means I'm broke.

Or maybe I've just chosen to shut up about things that are personal
under the theory that personal experience has taught me that anything
you say sooner or later is going to be used against you.

But..hey...tell ya what. If you are doubting my skills,
haul your mud-slinging "tuchis" out to L.A. (Look up a cheap fare on They can find something to even fit YOUR budget!)  Pay
me $2000 to hang out with me for a couple of hours and I'll show you
the ropes. If you don't agree I can walk my talk, I'll give you the
cash back. Otherwise, sit down and shut up. Or come up with a system
that changes lives the way mine has and then we'll have a look at YOU.
> it that he's not out there doing otherwise.
>Zvi Continues:
>  >The best a trainer can do is to emphasize the need to use this material
>Ross doesn't get involved with ethical questions. He leaves it up to his
>students. His teaching is (at least proclaims to be) amoral. (That's VERY
>different from immoral, btw).

Technology is inherently amoral.  Full stop.  Morality rests in
people and their intent...
>A "minor" piece in this: ACTUALLY fulfilling what was
>missing in her boyfriend.
>If you can ACTUALLY fulfill her, the language is secondary.

No, you are ASSUMING that she is automatically going to put it
together on her own, without your guidance, that you have what she is
missing. The language serves to insure the dots are connected and she
not only sees you have that, but concludes she has to act on it.
>To Ross's credit, he's one of the few in the NLP world that actually does
>that, and very well. In that respect, he's an EXCELLENT teacher.

Ha. I don't accept you are one to sit in judgment of my teaching
skills, either way.  I'll let my students speak for that.
>for the woman in the bookstore, "Gee - you must be pretty
>smart - I've read that book [you're looking at] and it's full of big

Ha ha ha. That's great. I will use that! HA HA HA!
>The point being to avoid complimenting her looks - something so trite she's
>just going to roll her eyes.
>I tell AFC's all the time about Rasputin.  But they always scoff and doubt
>(AFC's love to wallow in their own self pity).  Brother Rasputin had crumbs
>in his beard, dirt in his fingernails and smelled of his own feces and yet
>seduced every rich, beautiful and married young woman of the Russian
>aristocracy. Many of the women in the aristocracy felt very constrained and
>uptight, and Rasputin offered a way out.  Before Ross Jeffries boyfriend
>destroyer pattern there was Rasputin's technique of invalidating a marriage
>by "patterning" them by saying if they were not happily married, then they
>were not truly married at all.

Ha ha. Rasputin, being a Russian, was probably a distant relative.
(I'm 1/4 Russkie).  Can you give us more details about Rasputin's
"marriage destroyer"!?! Any good book titles?
>   The last time, I posted an NLP-heavy
>ad on a singles' board.  One woman invited me on the chat line and she just
>kept going with a steady stream of lines like "Wow... why aren't you
>married?" and "You're definitely my type."  Finally, she wanted my photo.
>When she got it... she went offline and disappeared forever.

I've got the same problem. I've never been able to make on-line
dating work, because of the "photogenically challenged" situation.

In person, I can get my energy, confidence and voice across, as well
as my touch.  But as a picture, PRIOR to hearing my voice...........
>In reality there is a whole lot more than these two extremes.  Where you
>into them has a whole lot more to do with what you decide rather than what
>you were born with.  Your analogies assume one thing that I know not to be
>true.  That is that women are shallow and stupid.  This is a huge mistake.

There seems to be a certain approach here that will work, when
aimed at a certain crowd. This is what people on the different sides
of what style or system works best debate seem to miss.

If a chick is terribly hung up on being part of the "in crowd" and
needs a boyfriend her girlfriends will think is "hot" then I
personally don't see her as one I'm going to do too well with for any
length of time.

Conversely, I think Sys in right on when dealing with a certain
type of chick. You see them all the time on "Change of Heart" in
particular. I think these kind of women WOULD sneer at a "looks
compliment" from someone they evaluate as not in their looks league.

But it's a shallow pool you swim in when you dive for these fish
and to me it's not worth having to always watch my head. But my gut
tells me he is right with a portion of women and a significant
portion of younger ones., especially the "club rats" and the "hipster
>From all the women that I have talked to many seem more attracted to
>who seems interesting rather than pretty.  Many seem to be more attracted
>attitude rather than looks.  I have seen more good-looking guys strikeout
>average looking guys who are interesting and have an attitude.
>  > What works in an initial approach is relative to the context...
>  > Here's an analogy:
>  >
>  > If you pull up next to a Ferrari 360M in your VW Jetta and say "Hey
>  > car, can I go for a ride in it" it's a lot different than pulling up in
>  > Lamborghini (which has more horsepower and is more expensive than the
>  > Ferrari) and saying "Hey great car, can I go for a ride in it?"
>  >
>  > Are you with me here?
>  >
>  > The fact that you are wrapped in something that is perceived as being
>  > to or better than their wheels makes you an instant rapport candidate.
>Where do come up with this?  Again I totally disagree.  It has
>never been my experience.  What you are saying is that unless we were
>genetically gifted that we will never be accepted as an equal or have

There's a percentage of shallow, stupid people that you can NOT get
rapport with, outside of LOOKING like you "belong in their league".
But in his defense, I don't think Sys is saying you can't get
rapport. He's saying that an ugly dude WON'T get rapport with a
beauty compliment given to a "hottie chick".

I think that depends on the woman; a woman with some depth and some
experience might respond favorably.  I don't think a shallow, young,
"club chick" would.
>Now you say several more things here that I strongly disagree with.
>  > Same goes for humans. If you're a handsome guy (and make no mistake
>  > this, women know) you'll have far more instant rapport with women when
>  > say "You're beautiful."
>This is totally wrong.  If the first thing you say to most women is "You're
>beautiful" then one thing truly happens.  You get categorized as the type
>person who only knows one lame approach.  You also get categorized as
>someone who doesn't notice anything else about them other than how they
>look.  In other words, you get lumped in with 1000 other guys.  This
>no matter how you look.

Score points for you, Tom. But I think Sys is recommending that
EVERYONE, good looking or ugly, stay away from the beauty compliments.
>  >The
>message you seem to be projecting was that you should only approach women
>who are your equal.  To approach someone who is better looking physically
>will leave you at a disadvantage.  You'll always lose to the better looking
>guy.  I personally don't like those messages.  I also believe them to be

No, I think he's saying avoid the beauty compliments when you
approach, unless you are very good looking yourself.

I don't agree with alot of what Sis posts, but I think you are
taking him out of context and in the context in which he is speaking,
I think what he says will OFTEN apply.
>My belief is that I can connect with any person in the room no matter how
>they look because inside my mind I know that I deserve to be with anyone
>I deserve to talk to anyone.  I walk into the room and everybody is my
>and there is no one who is better than me.  If I walk up to a beautiful
>woman I am doing her favor by talking to her.  This doesn't make any of
>those things true.  It does get considerably different results than what

I agree with you; but that's not what he's saying.
>  > I've identified 8 distinct personality styles that attract women most
>  > that's 8 different personality styles). And even this, of course, is a
>  > generalization... the real number is infinite.
>Really is that in the BEST thing you can think of doing?  Sure, why try to
>develop the skills necessary to build connections?  Why bother learning how
>to build rapport?  Why bother learning how to calibrate?  Why bother
>learning how to anchor good responses?  Why bother learning how to use and
>embedded commands and tonality?  I would personally rather learn a skill
>than watch Biff buff boy hit on women all night.

Ha ha. Touche'.   But there IS skill in watching guys who are good,
even when a lot of the "good" is wrapped around good looks.
>I have seen Ross do this in the almost always get a favorable response.
>main reason is that this is not a sexual question.  It is a question about
>who they are and what they enjoy.  One thing that Ross does really well
>is notice. He will notice unusual jewelry.  He will notice unusual tattoos.
>He will notice unusual shoes.  He will notice unusual eyes.  And the
>questions he asks are not compliments but honest observations.

You are correct, Cedric.
>  > And, oftentimes, in order to find a reason to agree with me, even
>  > if they don't train as martial artists, they'll say, "I do
>  > kick-boxing at the gym".
>  >
>  > No matter what their answer, I follow up with "Because you carry
>  > yourself with discipline AND's a very rare and
>  > attractive combination".
>  >
>This is SOOOOOOOOOOO important. It makes what you said not a compliment but
>an observation that opens a door. I have seen him do this with great

Thanks.  You mean that hot, 6 ft red-head waitress from Buckhead
Diner who turned out to be MARRIED? What was that freak's name????
>  > I find it perfectly ok to question/compliment a woman on how she
>  > carries herself/how she moves/or intangibles like "her
>  > energy" (although that may be a big Southern California thing and not
>  > work in other parts of the REAL world as well).
>I can attest to this as well.  I saw Ross try some of this in Atlanta and
>it fell flat on its ass. Know your environment.

No, that's wrong Tom. Remember what I said to red-head? I commented
on how she carried herself.
>The key takeaway above was that I pulled up next to her, I assumed the sale
>in a happy friendly way.  If she wasn't so confident though, I would have
>been dead in the water.

The key was you didn't let HER hesitation become YOURS!  Good!


David Johnson (  NLP & SS):
I have a question about last night's successful sarge.
I was rapping with this chick and in the end got a
kiss/# close.  I was using ALOT of trance
phrases, deep rapport, EV and IC.  It got to the point
where she was STARING at me, unable to speak - nice trance.  If
anyone does not know what DDB (doggy dinner bowl) looks like - I wish you
could have been there.  Anyway, then she says to me - 'you know you sound
different, kind of strange.   You sound like one of those hypnosis tapes -
the ones that relax
you!'.  I was laughing inside and asked her if it was a good thing
'Of course.' She then told me I was fascinating and memorizing.

I know this was a successful sarge, I am not questioning that. But for Ross
and others on the list, do you think this is a tonality issue or something
that everyone comes across at some point when using tonality?  Is this
something I should


> NightLight9:
>  If she wasn't so confident though, I would have
> been dead in the water.
> I declare shenanigans...  He may not need to stop being a geek, but he
> to become an attractive geek and this means becoming someone else.  Then
>he can JBY.
> My Comment:  "JBY"?

Just Be Yourself (what every girl tells you is the key to getting women to
like you...)


After browsing through David Johnson's website,,
specifically his philosophies section, I came up with an idea for my current
situation.  At the moment I'm in the process of seducing a girl who just got
out of a Long Term Relationship, and she's pretty distraught about it
because it was ended by whom she thought was her "soul mate".  I number
closed her after he broke up with her under the pretense that we'd go do
something to take her mind off of him.  Well, when we finally got together,
she ended up trying to steer our conversations to the topic of trying to get
her old boyfriend back.  I ended up dropping the ball when I tried to give
her some sound advice -- I was saying that it would be hard to get him back,
but I'm sure she translated it as "It can be done, however."

The reason that he broke up with her is that she cheated on him and lied
about it, so that lessens her wanting to sleep with anyone else while she's
trying to get him back, but I *know* it can be done ; P

Anyways, the idea came to me while reading David's philosophies on why girls
believe in fate, psychics, etc.  I think I am going to play the, "Maybe this
was meant to be, it's your fate, blah blah blah, etc." angle.  Anyone have
any ideas on how to deal with a situation like this, or has anyone had
similar past experiences?


I just wanted to know if any one know where I can get tested for STD's in
the MA area.  I know that there are like 24/26 STD's but some are
and only a few are really important to be tested for.  Any one suggest what
I get tested for?  Yesterday, I already got tested for gonhorrea and
Chlymadia (that was terrible), but they couldn't do HIV or Syphilis then.
I also want to get tested for Herpes, etc. but they said I don't have any
symptoms and it will be hard to test for that.

Main reason I am getting tested is because I am, or was going into a longer
term relationship with a girl, and I really just want to make sure I don't
have anything that I could have given her even though I have been pretty
safe every time (but I have received BJ's without condoms from others).  I
am 19,
have been with 22 chicks so far, and have given oral to about 2.  I really
am starting to get worried, more about what I possibly could have given her.
I have given her oral, but she has only given me handjobs, and this is
already something she has never done.  It is inevitable that when we see
each other again (she's far away now) that we will be screwing like rabbits.
At least that was the case before I divulged all my past "secrets".

That was a very big mistake, I know.  Well, this girl, I really care about,
and she is in love with me now.  Before we go any further, I just had to
tell her about my past history (she asked) honestly and what's done is done.
I just didn't want her to fall for me if I am not who she truly wants (this
is like the girl I want to marry someday, even if that's 10 years from now)
Now she said she doesn't know what we are anymore, and she said she just
feels we weren't like where we were. Certainly she needs time to accept
that, no girl in her right mind would want to share this piece of cake
unless she also has had similar experiences, etc.  I think she felt like one
of the many girls, considering she is a virgin she must have felt so impure
with the things we have done.  She felt "used", and can't get off her mind
that I have "taken advantage of her innocence" and have put her at "risk".
I am ready to just screw this and LJBF her, but I also actually think if I
can recover it, I would do it.  It's one of those people you really care for
(also as friends) and you just can't bear to hurt them, I am sure you know
what I mean.  I will see her around quite alot (we go to the same school)
and I think she still needs me in her life in some context.  But I can't
bear that she would ever despise me for this, even though it all happened
before her.  I mean I was once in the phase where I had such low self
esteem, and it was so great to be able to seduce all these girls, I am sure
many PU'ers know what I mean. Any suggestions, for whatever I decide (to
her or to ditch her).  Thanks for your help.

My Comment:  Firstly, I don't know exactly how it works in the U.S. but
unless you're too uncomfortable to ask your family doctor for a referral to
an STD specialist, I suggest you ask your doctor for a referral.  What, do
you think - we're all a group of guys who are at varying times infected and
disinfected and we should have the scoop on the best places to get fixed?
Secondly, the last thing you want to do with women is tell them your history
(or frankly, almost anything about yourself).  The more mystery you can
maintain about yourself, the better.  Telling them this stuff only bursts
their bubbles of excitement with you and you end up getting the treatment
you got.  And giving them any information in any sort of apologetic manner
is like cutting yourself open and handing them the bag of salt to pour on
the wound.  If there is one point that is becoming more and more clear to me
lately, it's that words are really secondary to seducing women and, like
they say 90 or 93% of all communication is non-verbal.  If you think telling
them about your history is going to make them appreciate your honesty, all
they are doing is seeing your weakness to do or say anything to keep them,
rather than your strength to make no apologies or excuses for what you have
done (or will do, but they don't need to know that either).  Women are not
like men, and the sooner you get that message the better off you will be.
We share a lot of the same life support systems but we live on different
planets.  A better plan is to tell them you will never lie to them, but that
doesn't mean you are going to tell them everything either (and then tell
them as little about yourself as possible - then they will find you
mysteriously sexy).  You owe them no explanations of where you were Saturday
night -- just think about the super hot babe you met who was busy Saturday
night; did she tell you what she was up to that night?  Did you really care,
or were you just happy that she was willing to see you on Tuesday?  Turn the
game around -- put a high value on your time and owe her no explanations
whatsoever for what you are doing when she's not there.  And see her when
you are available, not on her schedule.  And stick to your guns, or you'll
get shot down.


BigB (cheesy but anonymous):
I am curious, a lot of SS material is concentrated in its advertising as
being able to instill a method to "get the woman of your dreams."  However,
lot of posts here and otherwise, place above all
else in the SS hierarchy the ability or the necessity to walk away from a
woman who treats you like sh*t. That kind of squares in the face of
reasoning, if the woman who treats who like poop is the woman of your dreams
and can one postulate that SS fails in that regard?
The reason I bring it up is because I got into the whole shebang with the
SOLE reason of getting the woman of my blah, blah, blah. I didn't, I got a
whole lot else, but not here and I am not sorry for it, but it does make me
wonder whether SS is about the "10 million vaginas" out there or the one
that you so dearly want. (Dearly - AFC language, but it is the ONLY reason
we get into the SS deal right?)

Oh, on the Double Your Dating» series, has anyone read the other books that
are free, any use at all?

My Comment:  I think that you need to understand the basic concept that the
buck stops here -- it doesn't matter what you learn, ultimately you are the
person who is using whatever you choose to use.  If you decide to use a
particular pattern or approach, and you don't execute it well (or
congruently, or confidently enough, or whatever), the blame can't go back to
the material you were using.  You have the choice of what you decide to use,
and no one can perform it other than you.  If it worked on other women but
not on the woman of your dreams, maybe it's because that special woman made
you more nervous than the others and you didn't approach her as you did the
others.  I think SS is like anything else you learn -- you have to be the
one driving the car.  Don't point the finger anywhere else.

As for other free books, if you (or anyone) email me I will send you a copy
of Johnny Shack's Women are Easy Book (it comes as a Word document, attached
to an email).


>Several comments on the last post:
>On Sisonpyh:
>First off: guys, do yourself a favor and get
Sisonpyh's book
>( I'd like to
>give it a better review when I have more time, but
>for now this will
>suffice. Just get it. Believe me, it's a lot
>healthier and sensible
>other "systems" out there.

I agree 100% after skimming through this book.  A must
have!  Not only that, but the author emailed it to me
on the honor system after his online order form was
having problems... a class act, much better customer
support than some other "gurus" that come to mind.
> Sisonpyh:
> On the topic of looks:
> If you're a good-looking guy (defined as some
combination of handsome, buff,
> tall, etc.) then you have a definite advantage in
the opening game over guys
> who are ugly, short, out of shape, etc.and

Tom V said:
>I disagree.  If what you want to do is convince
people who aren't
>walking models that they are at some type of
>disadvantage because of
>genetics I think that's a really shitty thing to do.

Reality is a bitch, eh?  I've seen good looking guy
friends of mine sit and do nothing while hot girls
come right up and sit on their lap while I had
nothing... that is just reality.  If you are trying to
say that good-looking men don't have at least SOME
advantage in getting women you are delusional!

My Comment:  There's no question about that, but talk to women and you will
see  many of them will tell you that most good looking men are self
absorbed, egotistical, etc.  The typical development is that they play with
these guys when they are younger and then look beyond the exterior when they
are older and looking for something more substantial.  I have met women who
have had so many bad experiences with good looking men that they say (and,
yeah, maybe we should ignore what they say) they avoid them now.


Some thoughts on complimenting women.
>>I am an average looking guy. Woman never fall for me because of my looks.
>>fact I think that if I was really good looking I would fail to appeal to
that strange >>longing woman have for that soul-mate type lover. Besides,
looks are good for a >>first encounter, but when you are familiar with
someone they become more >>attractive, I mean have you ever began to....
hear a song the first time and didn't like >>it. But then ... you hear it
again, remember the tune, and find yourself enjoying the >>music, maybe even
humming the tune, or singing the lyrics?  I'm a friggin'
>David Johnson (DJ) wrote :
>I was thinking about this:  If you use a pattern like
>'Have you ever just felt like you were going to see
>someone again?' and couple it with asking about their
>favorite song, a song that they just cannot get out of
>their head.  'You know what it is like when you have a
>song going round and round in your head?  You start
>humming it. (Actually start to hummmmm)  A tune, LIKE
>A VOICE/IMAGE that comforts you?  And when you try to
>push the song/voice/image aside, it becomes stronger?
>As it follows you all day like a warm companion/lover.'
>Now, is it possible to create a synesthesia between
>SOUND and IMAGES like in the above?  Is it recommended
>or should I stick with the SOUND/VOICE?

There's no 'Holy way.'  It's really up to the girl. Whatever she uses best
her own mind.. But the recurring stimulus is an interesting point. I
recently performed some cigarette seduction on a girl. I anchored feelings
of sexual desire to that craving that she had. I mean, what better way to
make her think about you all day? Smokers are actually addicted to smoking.
Why not make her addicted to me?? I'm not sure of the ethics of that. But
needless to say, after testing it, cigarette seduction works a treat. When,
you think about it, cigarettes are perfect for seduction:

1) A recurring powerful craving.
2) Physical manifestations that can be woven into an induction
3) The act of smoking itself can be beautifully described sexually
       I) The deep longing breaths.
       II) Just letting that smoke penetrate deep inside of you...
       III) The smoke moves almost aimlessly, but when you.. look closer,
you can see, like clouds, they create pictures in your mind of places you've
been (pause) ... People you know (pause) .. Those encounters you've had that
left you feeling extremely sexy...
       IV) They let that cigarette come between their moist lips as they
suck lightly... playfully on the end.. Letting it slip down their throat.
       V) That fulfilling feeling that it gives them.

Of course eventually most people want to quit smoking, but if she associates
that desire to the smoking then by sleeping with her you actually help
satisfy her needs thus helping her to quit smoking..  or something like
that.... hehe


I thought I would throw my occasional two centimos in with this wonderful
little outing report that I am sure you all will love to read.

Last night I was at a "Lollapolooza" type of music festival with tons of
great bands and good times.. Well, my pivot introduced me to her cousin
last night and at the concert and it was all history from there.. We were
making out by the middle half of the night and we ended up doing some heavy
petting that led up to a great evening..

This is what led up to the actual introduction. After a few months of
turning one of my buddies' girlfriends into a pivot for me to introduce me
to her friends, she finally came to the point a couple of weeks ago where
actually asked me what I was looking for in a relationship and a woman.. I
told her and the next time I saw her.. she intro's me to her cousin.

I have developed a hell of a lot with this girl (Pivot) to get me to this
point, my most powerful things were probably the amazing amount of
confidence that she thinks I have (and has said it) as well as my
spontaneous darts of conversation topics that she has spent many times
complimenting me on. I demonstrated (not just talked about) my values and my
capabilities. Matter of fact, I never said much more than "I think I am
going to go talk to her, be right back."  I left her standing in her tracks
and I
was off to the races : )

This chick has seen me in action and has asked me my values and she is so
into me that she would probably have me if she wasn't going out with my
buddy.. That is what a REAL pivot is made of..

After long discussions with people on developing good pivots I finally put
it all into action on getting these women so "into" me that they would
want to send their friends "after me" to find out how good I am .. My guess
that they do this just in case they break up with their boyfriends they
can steal you from their g/f's and they know how good you are or if you are
worth the time after the break-up. Social proof testing/conditioning.
Cause no girl in her right mind would leave her b/f for a loser.

This pivot is very into me, she always is initiating some sort of kino and
is flirting with me.. So she did the next best thing for herself, she
hooked her family member up with me.

So. Since this is also an outing report I will give the details of what

3:00 - Arrive at concert
4:00 - She arrives at concert
7:00 - The Real fun begins!

At first I was fairly buzzed up on alcohol, just having a really good time
everyone within 5 rows of me was too.. entertaining people in the stands
during set change and just being a generally fun guy.. i.e. demonstrating
more of that "confidence".. At one point I got to sit next to the target
but my buddy told me to stand up and move.. I did so and his drunk ass just
irritated her to the point at which she just began to ignore him. After a
while, I could tell she was incredibly bored with him, so I just took her
hand.. helped her down one row of seats (somewhat dangerous move) and
began to see what kind of body language» I would get from her.. Basically it
all good, if I moved close or sat against her she didn't move away, she I
moved in like I was going to kiss her one time, and said something in her
ear.. then she answered.. 5 minutes later I take her face and move it to
mine like there was nothing else in this world and we traded a very hot
and heavy kiss, the kind of kiss that is built up from immense amounts of
excitement. The kissing continued through the night and after the

After the concert, we decided to go to our local watering hole and have a
bite to eat and recover from a long day in the sun. Since the girls rode
in another car they were a little late to return to the restaurant (you know
how well women are with directions LOL!)

Well, while waiting for these girls to come back to town and meet us at
the restaurant, we were waiting in the parking lot and there was this chick
that was talking on her cell phone and I did a quick BS opener with her
and she asked me what I club I went to (I had a wristband on) and I told her
was at that concert.. She was talking to me like her long lost friend..
Unfortunately, I had other chicks coming otherwise I would have hooked up
with her : ) .. So this is how I broke off conversation (I had to do it
like this)..

"So who are you here with?"
"A Friend"
"Ahh, well are they inside?"
"Ahh, Well, I will let you go meet your friends now, have a good night"
"You too!" She looked at me like I was her next meal or something.. Oh
well.. tons more out there.. I didn't want to close her in front of an AFC
whose girlfriend introduced me to the chick that was on the way to the
same restaurant.

So, we all get in and settled down, and I began to kiss her again. I asked
her "So you like that, huh?" after she made a "yumm" noise.. She said to

"I knew there was something about you from the moment you shook my hand,
you have an aura about you that makes you glow."

Ok, I have heard about this used on chicks before, done it once or twice..
but never had it said to me.. Well, no big deal. I said thank you and we
kissed again.. I attempted a fuck close.. she has kids.. so that didn't
work well.. I got her number and am calling her later today as we discussed.

Well, at this point all I can say is that the social proof that your pivot
gives you will go farther than anything that you can ask for, so even if
you are clubbing it alone, just pivot whomever for social proof..

I would like to hear from anyone who may have an opinion about this


Eric H.:
I've been working on some of my cold reading skills recently since I heard
that ex Steven Sikes and Kenton Knepper released a cold reading set called
Wonder readings (this isn't a plug...I haven't so much as checked that set
out yet
but if someone wants to review it, that'd be nice) and I got some majorly
cool info
in my search for excellence in "psychic phenomena".

Let me give those who don't know a definition. "Cold reading" has at least
two definitions (besides browsing Shakespeare in Alaska in February : ) one
pertains to reading a part you've never seen before in acting and the other,
the one
we're concerned with, is telling someone things about themselves and,
making them think you are a psychic. This one is a major rapport and

I know that some of you think, "you know when I was 8, I was at the beach
I saw two guys kissing and that was the gayest thing I'd seen until I saw
of those psychic dudes trying to score with some chyck."  Well, rejoice
because I
can read probably anyone this side of James Randi and they'll think I've got
bugs planted at their house. I've got chycks from ages 18 on up begging me
for my
pager number when they KNOW I'm married and have kids (none of that
interferes with my outside fun, btw : )

I'm not giving away the actual secrets (I'm a magician and come from a line
of magicians so it's forbidden for me to reveal a secret...and please,
Clifford, censor anyone who does attempt to reveal whole secrets from the
books since the authors are entitled to make their dough for their hard work
too) but I can tell you the books to find and read and with a little
practice, you stump everyone you know. Oh, and amazingly enough, the first
one one should be an staple read for anyone in NLP....

1) Face Language 2000 by Jon E. Prescott and David E. Prescott. This book is
like using eye accessing cues but a million times better. It's based
on (actually is?) "Physiognomy" which is a way to read a face and determine
personality traits. As with eye accessing cues in NLP, I don't know if it's
"true" but
it works and gives you great language to use for a reading session. This is
must have and you need it before you get any other book since it's easy to
do and
cheaper than any of the rest. With this and a deck of Tarot (or a palmistry
mat or whatever...) you will have the power to make actual bucks at psychic
or what-have-you. Add that to the fact that it tells you whether someone is
sexually attracted to you, whether they are sexually *active* (you
know..ACTIVE : ), whether they neeeeeeeed affection, compliments, etc. The
list of traits is huge and only takes a few seconds to do it once you have
the stuff
down. Took me 3 days to read it with 15 minutes here and 15 there..oh, I was
sick, too.

2) Red Hot Cold Readings by Herbert (?) Dewey. This one is hard to find but
once found you get fun statistics that you'd have never thought would work
this one I have used successfully on every girl I know of older than 18. "I
a pen...did you write in a diary or was it poetry when you were younger?" I
1000% with that one...there are others like young women around their teens
feeling that "sex is a problem" (in some way or another it IS). There is soo
much more to this book that I can't begin but the stats are a good place to

3) King of the Cold Readers by Dewey and someone I don't recall at the'll find it.. : ) This one will teach you about "specific
generalities" which are like "The number two has some special recurring
meaning in your life. Is it two love interests or two pets...?" but majorly
overloaded versions that give you a good insight to the workings there.

4) Completely Cold by Kenton Knepper. I think it's 32 pages but teaches you
very simple rules that you will use and profit from within 10 minutes of

5) Bluffer's Guide to Fortune Telling (or something like that) Cliff Notes
Psychics is what I call it. It'll teach you stuff about astrology,
etc. that every good psychic should know and you will without having to know
how to read an astrological chart, etc.

Most of these are expensive or hard to find but they are worth the
time/effort if you're wanting a very quick way to build rapport (even with
skeptics..try that "diary/poetry" thang and see how many chycks respond
favorably) and, even better, you get to know from reactions, etc. whether
you even wanna try to
get in their pants, ya know.  That first one is both cheap ($20...I got mine
$13 used on Amazon) and awesome and that's why it gets the longest review
most hype. Anyway, there are other books, etc. that work but these are some

So as I now bring this to a close. Fire BAD!! Psychic reading GOOD and
PROFITABLE! If anyone is seriously interested in cold reading as a
*profession*, give me some email (Clifford feel free to share my email with
anyone who asks about this) and I'll help you get in touch with others who
are in this


(Commenting on good looking men):  Yes, I am one of them. But that does not
mean you are attractive. When I was AFC, my female friends treated me as a
teddy-bear. Some of them were attracted to me but I could feel that  they
were mind/look diggers. They were like my mothers.  Now, after I've read a
lot of material I am now a more mature person, and that is what makes me
ATTRACTIVE. Good looks maybe will help for first impressions,  but they
never close the deal, so you must be the MAN.


> Paul:
> Here is something interesting from that link I sent you (Ray Gordon's
> site ). This comes from the "29
> Reasons" book, section #4 "She Likes Baby Talk";
> Ray Gordon's text below:
> The best example I can think of comes not from USENET, but from 1991,
> first time I studied the moves of a player in depth. One specific
> stands out. We were at a restaurant, and he began flirting with the
> waitress:
> Him: Hey, how ya' doin'? (his patented pickup line)
> Her: Not bad.
> Him: What's your name?
> Her: Lisa.
> Him: Is Lisa relaxed tonight?
> Hey: Not really.
> Him: Lisa looks like she's been working all day. I bet Lisa wishes
> were home already. Doesn't she?
> Her: Yeah.
> The reason I am posting the above is that I think guys like Mark (i.e.
> looking young guys) can do very well by not using SS or MM. In fact,
> notice many guys seem to get great rapport with HB's by using "Baby
Talk" (I
> notice this most at bars and at work). Maybe it is just a case of
> anything vs. saying nothing....

Ray Gordon is totally off. The said player
1) is being playful (demonstrating that he is confident and fun to be
2) sets an incredibly useful frame: The moment the waitress gives him a
"normal" response (as opposed to a "what the hell" look) she is
unconsciously agreeing to play along and slips into the role of a small
child -- she becomes a lot more open and suggestible.
3) establishes himself as the authority on who she is.

This IS, in fact, totally consistent with SS and many ideas discussed on
this list.

I think it is a very neat approach and I can't wait to try it tonight.


I'm no master of seduction, but one thing I have discovered is that age is
far more prominent in your mind than hers.  You really can afford to forget
about the age thing.  I'm 32, and my last three encounters were 19, 20 and
18 years old.  You might be thinking that this age group is something I aim
It is not.  What I did was make friends with a gang of 19-23 year olds (both
sexes) where I was initially very self conscious of the age gap.  After a
while it became clear that they didn't see it the same.  Now I really don't
notice, or if someone points it out to me I think "yeah, they are a bit
young shallow and flaky, this is a throw away" (which curiously, makes them
try harder). Remember you have wisdom, experience, maturity (which is, btw
far more appealing to girls/women than men).  Give yourself a break and find
some value in yourself.  As for the eye contact/body language», remember that
these things come in clusters, a single signal is not a reliable one.  A lot
has already been said wrt (with regard to) looks, so I can only remind you
that looks help get the interview, not the job.


(Commenting on Mark's comments: "Challenge is a largely misunderstood idea.
Challenge is not about withholding your liking and appreciation of woman to
make her chase you and it's not about being critical. Holding back is a
flawed technique because when you meet a woman she does not yet see any
benefit from her chasing you so why would you try to elicit her to give you
chase. Unless you are a celebrity or wealthy beyond belief you have to show
her some sort of benefit
for her going after you. I have discussed the issue of challenge
specifically with many women directly in order to exactly see what being a
real challenge is and they mostly say that a man who is challenging is one
that does not agree with them, a man that tries to get his way with her and
challenges what she wants and her point of view. That is a real challenge,
not withholding your affections. When you withhold your affections or
downplay her looks you are being critical and no one including women likes
to be criticized. Would you like to be around someone who just told you that
you look like you gained 10 pounds around your waist? I thought so."):

What exactly do you mean by the being a challenge by not agreeing with
them?? Does this mean I have to get into some debate about World
politics??  Please give me an on-the-field scenario of this.

Plus, does social proof mean that you are a challenge, e.g. successfully
convincing them that you have many really hot chycks who like to hang out
with you??


Scott (commenting on Tom Vizzini's comments on Sisonpyh):
>>On the topic of looks:
>>If you're a good-looking guy (defined as some combination of handsome,
>>buff, tall, etc.) then you have a definite advantage in the opening game
>>guys who are ugly, short, out of shape, etc.

Tom Vizzini wrote:
>I disagree.  If what you want to do is convince people who aren't
>walking models that they are at some type of disadvantage because of
>genetics I think that's a really shitty thing to do.
>In reality there is a whole lot more than these two extremes.
>Where you fit into them has a whole lot more to do with what you
>decide rather than what you were born with.  Your analogies assume
>one thing that I know not to be true.  That is that women are
>shallow and stupid.  This is a huge mistake.

I don't think he is implying that at all. You are assuming that he
implies that all women are shallow and stupid.  You missed his point,
which was that YES good looking people have advantages over the average
looking individual, especially in the OPENING GAME (which Sis points out).
I'm sure Ross would agree with that statement as well.  In Sisonpyh's book,
he gives you techniques to overcome these initial impedances.  JUST LIKE
ROSS DOES.  Obviously, if a woman is attracted to you initially, things
become easier.  NOT ALWAYS EASY.  But you have one less thing to overcome,
hence an advantage.

Tom Vizzini continued...
>From all the women that I have talked to many seem more attracted to
>somebody who seems interesting rather than pretty.  Many seem to be
>more attracted to attitude rather than looks.  I have seen more
>good-looking guys strikeout to average looking guys who are
>interesting and have an attitude.

Once again, this may or may not be true in all cases, but the point he
was making had to do with an INITIAL advantage BEFORE she even has a chance
to judge you on these qualities.  Of course we all have the ability to
change our minds about our initial impressions.  (Isn't that what Speed
Seduction» is for?)
>>What works in an initial approach is relative to the context...
>>Here's an analogy:
>>If you pull up next to a Ferrari 360M in your VW Jetta and say "Hey great
>>car, can I go for a ride in it" it's a lot different than pulling up in a
>>Lamborghini (which has more horsepower and is more expensive than the
>>Ferrari) and saying "Hey great car, can I go for a ride in it?"
>>Are you with me here?
>>The fact that you are wrapped in something that is perceived as being
>>equal to or better than their wheels makes you an instant rapport

Tom Vizzini continued:
>Where do come up with this?  Again I totally disagree.  It has
>never been my experience.  What you are saying is that unless we
>were genetically gifted that we will never be accepted as an equal
>or have rapport.

Actually, it's a great analogy.  I'm not sure if I agree with your
mindread.  MY mindread is that he is making a point about not all techniques
having exactly the same effect for different types of people who use them.
>>If a woman guesses that you're the kind of guy that
>>attracts a lot of women, as a rule-of-thumb she'll be more open.

Tom Vizzini continued:
>Whose rule of thumb is this?  I have never found this to be true.

Never?  Hasn't a woman ever considered you to be the kind of guy that
attracts a lot of women?
>>If you're
>>not on her level looks-wise, she'll be more likely to think "He's telling
>>me that I'm beautiful in a 'he worships me' kind of way" as opposed to
>>thinking "He's a hot guy, and he's telling me this as an equal."

Tom Vizzini continued:
>Again I totally disagree.  Your presupposition here is that the
>only way to be perceived as an equal by a beautiful woman is to be
>a "hot guy".  This is not only insulting to men but also to women.
>You realize that anybody who is less than hot who is reading this
>now thinks the only way they can get a woman is to be
>good looking?  Is this a really how you want people to feel?

Once again, you are missing the point.  If he WERE saying that you
can't get a hot women without being hot yourself, I would agree with you
100%.  However, in reality, he is only talking about the "you're beautiful"
comment and he is right on the mark.  It all goes back to rapport.
Obviously, if you're an ugly bastard and are DATING a hottie, (or have
gotten a sufficient level of rapport with her) then she will be more likely
to respond favorably to the "your beautiful" comment, no matter how much
it's been played out.  People want to hear certain things from CERTAIN
PEOPLE.  My grandmother tells me that I'm "such a handsome boy" every single
day.  Do you think it means shit to me? (sorry, grandma)   People need to
feel like you understand their world.  When you are hot, (just like her),
you can become an INSTANT authority in her eyes.  INSTANT map matching.
INSTANT rapport (at least in that specific context).  Of course, you can
change your status over time, (or even rather quickly.  Mystery is notorious
for this.) yet the point was about the OPENING game.
>>I've seen this in person over and over and over again with my guy friends
>>who are handsome. They can tell hot women how hot they are all night long
>>without losing any of the magnetism. But it doesn't work so well for the
>>more normal and average looking guys I know. (I also want to mention that
>>attitude and approach are also powerful forces. A regular looking guy can
>>get a great response if his game is good, too, but good looks open up the
>>game much better overall).

Tom Vizzini continued:
>Again, no.  What average or normal looking guys are you
>talking about?  Looks do not open up the "game" much better at
>all.  I asked Kim about this.  As a woman she probably knows about
>this stuff.  Being absolutely drop dead gorgeous will buy you about
>30 seconds.  Anytime in that 30 seconds any good-looking guy can
>screw it up by not having the right state, attitude, or language.
>So I would say looks play a minor role at best.

I think it's a mistake to reference all this from a woman's
point of view.   You're making the age old mistake of asking a woman what
her strategy is for being attracted to a guy.  Even Ross talks about how you
should never do this.  She's NOT going to tell a guy, let alone her
BOYFRIEND her rules.  You don't think it's possible that she will tell you
want you WANT to hear or what she wants you to believe?

And you know what?  She could have been perfectly honest with you.  If
so, then being attractive will, in fact, only buy you about 30 seconds...
WITH HER.  By HER definition, since she is an NLP'er, she SORTS for the
right state, attitude and language.  If Joe Blow, who studied with Kenrick,
goes into a sales situation and realizes that the Other Guy doesn't use any
embeds or binds, chances are Joe Blow will think he sucks, and Other Guy may
sell tons of shit all day long.
You are sorting by a woman's model of the world.

Tom Vizzini continued:
>Here is what I will say.  Men who are well groomed will have a much
>better chance than someone who isn't.  No woman is going to spend
>an hour getting dressed, putting on makeup and fixing her hair and
>then find someone who doesn't have the common courtesy to trim his
>nose hair attractive.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Well, wait a minute.  I DID agree until this
morning's episode of Jerry Springer.  : )

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>If you really want to sell a book I suggest you make people feel
>better about themselves rather than worse.

What are you talking about?  Is it the customer reading the book who's
going to feel bad?  Is it the girl feeling bad?  Who exactly is going to
feel bad?  Since your assumption is that people aren't going to feel good,
I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion.  I read the book personally
and I didn't feel bad.
>>Experiment with what you read on this list, but
>>don't take any of it as the word of God. The best thing you can possibly
>>do is make friends with several different guys who are good with women and
>>hang out with them and watch what they do in person. There's nothing like
>>seeing it live.

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>Why bother learning how to use and embedded commands and tonality?
>I would personally rather learn a skill than watch Biff buff boy
>hit on women all night.

Based on your many posts on modeling people who can really do what
they are talking about, I think I would need to see you in action, being
successful with highly attractive women.  I feel I would be more successful
modeling Biff Buff Boy, if he seemed to be quite successful with the
hotties, night after night.  Wouldn't you agree that would be a better
modeling strategy?
>>Dr. Neder.....and whoever else wants to jump in...
>>Do you get my point about IMMEDIATELY moving on to something else
>>AND complimenting on something unusual....noticing something that
>>probably no one else has noticed or commented on?
>>Please get me on this: I TOTALLY get that very beautiful women are
>>used to hearing it and are bored with it.

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>This is a great point.  As I mentioned in the previous post, it has
>nothing to do with looks - it has to do with categorizing yourself
>as someone who just notices the same things that everybody else
>does and they are bored with it. Complimenting women works great.
>As long as your complimenting is first of all genuine and second
>unique.  The complimenting is not ass kissing.  It is noticing.

I agree.  AND sometimes genuine compliments will not elicit the
response you are looking for due to factors which have already been
discussed.  Which brings us to our next point.

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>I have seen Ross do this in the almost always get a favorable
>response.  The main reason is that this is not a sexual question.
>It is a question about who they are and what they enjoy.  One thing
>that Ross does really well is notice. He will notice unusual
>jewelry.  He will notice unusual tattoos. He will notice unusual
>shoes.  He will notice unusual eyes.  And the questions he asks are
>not compliments but honest observations.

Yes, and I find this can grab much more of their attention than just a
standard compliment they are used to hearing.

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>This is a great observation and use of calibration. Notice what
>works and pay attention to what doesn't then make an adjustment.
>Some guys just notice something doesn't work and just freeze up or
>walk away. That just means they need more choice in the directions
>they go.  Luckily for Ross he has lots of experience to back up his

Yes, many times experience will be the deciding factor when it comes
to qualifying for the gold.

Tom Vizzini Continued:
>What? Why are you going to restrict yourself to some standard
>height ratio? There is no "should."  Forget about it and go have some

Damn straight.  I'm only 5'6" and my grandma thinks I'm the mack!!!!!


I reached an epiphany by looking back on my life and evaluating times of
greatest success and progress. I realized that whenever I did things my own
way I became hugely successful. This means following my own ideas and
thoughts rather than following the advice of others. This is not to suggest
that following advice is not valuable but I believe that one must be very
careful when following suggestions of others. I use advice as a way to clear
and understand what works for me. For example if Dr. Neder suggests never
complimenting a woman I will try that and see how it works for me. If it
does then I will use it and if it does not then I will try something else.
Like I said before the best thing I ever did was start out in the dating
field with no knowledge and tried various approaches until I found something
that worked. When I ran unto stumbling blocks I searched for advice from
others and used that advice in similar situations. My biggest mistakes
occurred right here where I used the advice of others without evaluating
whether it works for me. Sometimes this advice did not work for me yet I
continued to use it in the face of failure thinking that I am simply not
following it correctly. This is where the biggest failures with women
occurred for me.

Specifically my biggest errors in conduct were not showing romantic interest
in a woman right away, not telling her I am attracted to her and not being
sexual with her and also not standing up to a woman when she challenges you
with her behaviour. Many dating coaches suggest withholding affections from
a woman but this does not work for me at all. I have had many women say to
me "Mark you are not interested in me romantically so I am gone". I have
lost many great women this way some that could have been great life
partners. Now I tell a woman right away that I am interested in her
romantically and that I am attracted to her. I noticed that when I do their
eyes glow and they feel special and smile. I have told many married women
that I want to have "sexually passionate love affairs with them behind their
husbands back" and they still call me to talk to me even though they say no
to the affair. The same with women with boyfriends. I think the key here for
me is that I tell them what I want rather than asking them for something. I
say "I would like to have a passionate love affair with you" rather than
"Lets have a passionate love affair" or "Would you have a passionate love
affair with me". Telling them seems to work better because they do not feel
pressured to act or respond and can take time to digest and think about
their response. By asking them they can say no so I never ask I only tell
and see their response.

My other error with women has been not laying things on the line and
allowing them to challenge me and when they do giving in to them and backing
down. When you give in to their control they lose attraction and respect for
you as a man and you might as well forget her and move on. It's a mind set
where you are on the offensive rather than on the defensive and if she
questions you aggressiveness then you question her response to you. In
essence this means never allowing a woman to feel that she has any sort of
power over you. This is along the lines of what Dennis Neder calls the test.
As he describes it it's a time when a woman does something unusual and out
of character to see how the man responds. The appropriate response is for
the man to come out and challenge the woman's view and not give into her
challenge and stand up to her. I had a few women test me a few times in the
past and by giving in I showed them my coward side and allowed them to run
over me. This combined with withholding my affections was a lethal
combination of failure for me. Be correcting my mistake I am now able to
have more women and more sex than ever before.

Specifically I reached the moment of clarity one Friday night. It was about
12:30 and I walked into a busy bar. I saw a girl there that I have known for
4 years and we have become good friends over that time. I felt really
frustrated that night because little of what I was doing seemed to be
working with women. We sat down for a drink and I started venting with her
and telling her how frustrated I had been feeling. I just spilled my guts
out to her and told her all my frustrations and showed her total human side.
She said she never saw me this way but she said that this side of me was
very attractive and that she loved the fact that I was just being myself
without me putting on an act. That night I went home and did not fall asleep
until 5:30 the next morning just thinking. I realized that I had been
pretending and not being the real me all this time and how could I have
expected others to be true to me if I was not true to myself. At that moment
I saw the error of my ways and vowed never again to act like someone else,
be like someone else or talk like someone else. Since then by being the real
me people that I have known for years began opening up more. My success rate
with women shot up and I feel powerful and rejuvenated again.

I think that we all as men need to figure out what we are good at and what
makes us successful and then follow that. It makes me laugh when I read
comments from your readers which suggest that what another one wrote is
wrong and does not work. I would rather see questions about how to make a
technique work rather than dispelling a method as useless. My approach may
only work for me and no one else in the world but that is fine and it does
not mean that it's wrong or that all others are also wrong. My suggestions
are only based on my field experience rather than some theory. Remember I
had no theory at the beginning. I went out to see what worked and then
created my rules based on what worked and what did not. I still do not
understand why some things work and others do not but I do not care as long
as they work.

As far as handing multiple women there is really no big secret. You just
tell one you cannot see her when you are seeing another one and turn your
phone off when one of them is over at your place. In order to succeed you
must not be 100% available at the beginning because if you are then when you
become illusive she will get suspicious. I see them all on the weekend since
I work and go to the gym during the week. The week is my time.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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