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I’ll just act like a bitch
7/24/01 6:29:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Thanks to Ross for mentioning and recommending this list on the SS list
recently and welcome to the guys who joined us as a result.  One thing I
would like to clarify to you is that this list is about SS also.  The thing
is, however, that I try not to duplicate what is done on the SS list.


Ok, here's another one someone has to look into and report their results
for us.  This site, which I found in a recent issue of Maxim magazine, is
about this herbal formula where you take two capsules a day and your penis
will grow 1 to 3 inches over the next couple of months.  All for about $65
US or your money back.


Lately I tripped upon a piece of the solution to the age issue.  When they
ask (and they are usually a lot younger than I am), I tell them my real age
and then add "But I love younger women!" and this seems to shift the focus
to my frame and has been working really well.


>My ideas
>1) Model calm, confident guys and then imitate them. Check out some James
>Bond movies.... watch Thomas Crown... watch how Rhett acts around Scarlet
>Gone With The Wind. Notice the subtle things that these guys do. I've
>noticed that confidence and indifference are usually communicated by SLOW,
>deliberate movements.

Actually, NLP isn't fundamentally about therapy OR sales OR
seduction. So, when Sis says model confident guys, he's right.

It's the NLP modeling tech that lets you do that exponentially
faster. It's a way of "unpacking" natural talent or skill.
>2) Practice calm, confident behavior physically and mentally. I've
>turning my head slower, moving slower... even blinking slower in order to
>appear more cool and confident

In fact, involving your physiology is VERY important. It's a key
element not only in properly applying NLP modeling, but in Huna (one
of the most powerful change systems around) and in ritual magick as

I constantly tell guys to rehearse, out-loud, but also in the same
physiology they'd be in if they were in the actual situations.
>3) Don't let things bug you. Stop reacting emotionally. Stay calm when
>others get freaked out. Be cool, calm and collected. I've known several
>that get emotional and dramatic waaaaaaay too often. This telegraphs that
>you're insecure and not tough. If others get upset, you stay calm. If a
>woman gets dramatic and emotional, you keep a totally calm attitude and say
>"You're so cute when you're mad..." Don't get sucked in.

A cool Huna method is to deliberately practice relaxing your muscles
during periods of stress, anger, etc.

I highly recommend "Mastering Your Hidden Self" by Serge Kahili King
as a great and practical book on Huna!
>4) Learn about anything mystical, romantic, or predictive so you know it
>better than them. lol... I love this. Women just love mystical arts,
> ancient romantic traditions and stories, and fortune telling.

This is interesting, because I totally agree. But this is the very
same stuff your "mack daddy" buddy would label "faggot shit", now
wouldn't he?
>I've gotten a lot more questions and comments lately about NLP and why I
>don't refer to it very often.
>Here's my perspective on NLP and whether or not it's useful for seducing

NLP is primarily a methodology and NOT a collection of techniques.
The techniques are what is left when NLP is properly applied.   I
don't want to afflict Cliff's list with a debate about NLP, but we
need to be careful as to what we are talking about.
>First, let me give you a little history and background on NLP so you know
>where I'm coming from.
>NLP was originally developed as a method of doing THERAPY.

No, that is wrong, or half-true. NLP was developed as a methodology
for modeling excellence in ANY field. The initial people studied
were therapists, but the methodology for modeling them is NOT
therapy or therapeutic.

I'm not picking nits here. This is IMPORTANT.

To conclude, as Sis attempts, that because the methodology was
originally applied to therapy that it has little value in other areas
is based on a misunderstanding of what, at its heart, NLP is.

The fact is, NLP now has applications for sales, sports excellence,
physical healing, SEDUCTION (taking a bow) and just about any other
form of human excellence.
>1) They originally developed NLP as a THERAPY tool.

No, that is wrong. NLP was developed as a modeling tool and it's
first application was to model therapists. A HUGE difference.
>2) They used a process known as MODELING to study effective therapists and
>create the techniques. (Of course, now modeling has also been brought under
>the NLP umbrella).

No, that is totally wrong. Modeling IS the methodology that IS NLP.
The trail of techniques left behind is secondary.
>I read all
>the original NLP books. I probably have 50 books and tapes on NLP. I've
>seen Bandler live and met him in person on several occasions.

With respect, from what you are saying here, you have not grasped the
heart of it.  But most NLP trainings suck because they don't TEACH
the heart of it, so I don't blame you!
>Ross seems to have figured out some interesting ideas with it, but almost
>none of his best stuff is 'straight' NLP.

I don't know what "straight NLP" means.   I use NLP methodology to
think things through and to model things.
>To summarize, he got a disgusted look on his face and said "What the hell
>are you talking about? That's faggot shit!"

So, one ignorant person invalidates an entire methodology?  "Faggot
shit"?  Wouldn't he say that about, and let me quote you,  "mystical
arts, ancient romantic traditions, stories and fortune telling?"

See what I mean?  I think what your friend meant is, HE'D never
heard of it, so it can't possibly be any good or he'd already be
using it!
>I was shocked. I thought I was on the right track, but here I had this guy
>who was clearly a lot better than me at meeting women telling me that this
>stuff wasn't good for meeting women.

Maybe what he was telling you, in his own stupid way, is that HE had
never heard of it and that is why he wasn't using it!
>So I went out and met a bunch of other guys that were great with women. The
>bottom line is that I used MODELING to figure out that the kick-ass pick-up
>artists weren't doing any of the traditional "NLP" techniques. As a matter
>of fact, they were violating them all the time.

MODELING ****IS***** NLP!   End of story!
>These guys were breaking rapport early on, mismatching women's behavior,
>acting pushy, and all kinds of other VERY non-NLP type things. (Now, I'm
>sure that someone out there is creative enough to figure out how these are
>all actually explainable by NLP... but give me a break. They're explainable
>by MODELING, but not by NLP).

NLP is modeling.  That is the heart of NLP.  Sigh..
>Remember, NLP was designed as a therapy tool... duh. I know that a lot of
>women need therapy, but... lol.

No, it was not.  Wrong. WRONG. W-R-O-N-G.
>If you want to know how to do great therapy and make people feel calm and
>nice and wonderful, study NLP.

So, by your reasoning, the NLP applications for sales and physical
healing are useless because the FIRST area of study that the NLP
modeling tools were applied to were therapeutic?  I can only say
this is a profoundly limited conclusion.


Answer to Rio and some communication with me and Dennis Neder:
To Rio:
>What exactly do you mean by the being a challenge by not agreeing with
>them?? Does this mean I have to get into some debate about World
>politics??  Please give me an on-the-field scenario of this.

This is what I mean. Whenever they do or say something that serves counter
to what I want, I challenge their view. I find that women do not respect a
man who agrees with them on every point simply because he is afraid of
losing her. His fear of losing her will inevitably lead to her walking. The
way I do this is by expressing my opinion rather than trying to alter their
view or belittle their argument. This way they still feel respected but you
have shown them that you have a mind and opinion of your own.

For example, if they say they do not kiss on the lips on the first date then
challenge them about that and say "why not?" and go for it anyway. Say "What
is the problem with kissing passionately on the first date? I think that you
should just get over your problem and kiss, nonetheless." Or if she says she
wants to be just friends to start say "I am not interested in being just
friends. My interest in you is purely romantic. I have enough friends and do
not need another one." That is the real challenge rather than saying you
look fat or withholding your affections at least in my case. Many women
have said
that they found me and still find me a huge challenge because I do not allow
them to get away with their views. This sort of thing comes to me naturally
as I have a natural curiosity regarding people's opinions.
>Plus, does social proof mean that you are a challenge, e.g. successfully
>convincing them that you have many really hot chycks who like to hang out
>with you??

I have found through experience that the less I say about other women the
better off I am. The women I meet tend to be very insecure about other women
and through experience the less I say about them the better off I am. If I
say that she is the first one in 6 months I have dated then she is all over
me. If I tell her she is 3rd one this week, they tend to run for the hills.
As I keep suggesting, if social proof works for you, then use it and if it
does not then don't. For me it does not but I will not venture out and say
that it's useless.

Here is some communication between me and Dennis Neder:
This weekend I slept with a woman for the first time and afterward when I
called her to talk she cried on the phone and said that I ignored her after
and that I was too silent and aloof. She scolded me for this and said I was
not the same person I had been prior to sleeping with her. I thought "big
test" here and told her to get a grip on herself. But it seems that to deal
with this nonsense is excessive for me and I would rather move on to my next

It's funny how women can get so emotionally psychotic and controlling after
sex. Why is that the case and what is the best way to deal with this

(Comments from Dr. Neder)
BIG test here!

She's trying to get you to position yourself so that you have to commit to
her. Obviously you don't want to do this! (Why would you?)

You're right about women being controlling and psychotic after sex -
consider what it means to them. They use it to bond and create intimacy. If
they don't get that, they accuse us of "ignoring them." We use sex to
determine if we WANT to get more intimate. Thus, you have to give her a
challenge (if you even care to continue all of this). Tell her, "Look -
you're totally out of line here. I will absolutely NOT allow any of this
craziness in my life. If this is where you're at at the beginning of a
relationship - where are you going to be in 6 months???" Then, let her
squirm - what wacky fun!

More from Mark:
Here are some discussions between me and a woman named Eve from Dennis
Neder's site. I suggest that those reading
this visit his site.  I have no financial interest in his site by the way
but he has helped me greatly and it would be great if he could get some hits.

This weekend (May, 2001) a woman put me to a huge test and I passed with
flying colors. We made plans for 6 p.m.. on Saturday. At 2 p.m. she calls me
and says she will be late because she has to go wedding dress shopping with
her aunt for her aunt's wedding and that she will not be ready until 8:00
p.m. I
said fine. At 7:30 she calls and says she is running late and will not be
ready until 8:30. At 8:40, she calls and said she will be ready at 9:30 but
could only spend about an hour with me. At this time I said "Listen, I will
not tolerate such lateness and disrespect for my time. YOU better become
better organized and have respect for my time. If you cannot keep the
original time I have no interest in seeing you and I am not interested in
seeing you only for an hour. If that is the case, then you better stay home."
She said she will be right over at my place. Within 20 minutes she was there
and stayed the whole night until 3 p.m. on Sunday and we engaged in some
sex with each other for hours at a time. I could not stop laughing because I
challenged her and she crumbled like a deck of cards.

Eve (Comments on above):
Yes, I agree, when a man respectfully sets down a boundary and I care enough
for him, I, too, will honour his wishes. What worked here was that she read
into his message which is loud and clear - I want to be with you - and this
is compelling to any woman who knows just how strongly he feels for her. I
would roll out the red carpet for a man who can be so authentic in
expressing his desires for me, I would not be able to resist being drawn
into his arms and loving him up all night long either.

Mark (Commenting on Eve's comments):
The most common problem that I seem to encounter with women is that they do
not seem to think that I am interested in them. I repeatedly have women say
to me that I must have a lot of women on the go and that they do not believe
that I am single. They say that they cannot believe that a good looking guy
like me is single. They also say that I do not show enough interest in them
and that my desire to be with them is not urgent enough and they leave. When
I tell them that I find them attractive and I would like to take them out
they say "I think you are just joking with me, Mark and you really do not
want to date me." It seems as if I have to go all out and go out of my way
to show interest.  Even my last two girlfriends in the last 5 years would not
commit to anything serious beyond dating and sex because they said I would
find another woman or leave them for someone else and they did not want to
expose themselves to being hurt. It's a catch 22 because if you come across
too strong you look desperate but if not strong enough women think they are
going to be played. How can I get over this nightmare and show that I am
genuinely interested in a woman?  Also is this only me or do most men have
this problem?

Eve (Commenting on Mark's comments above):
I would comment that it is the self-esteem of the woman that is in question
as well as how she feels while she is in your presence. Some women have low
self-esteem that being with a good looking guy conjures up fears. The
first most evident thought would be of having a future with you and how that
would appear to them. In the case you mentioned, the women you've been
meeting already sized themselves up to you and felt they fell short of some
appearance or quality that they cannot match to your good looks so their
balance of power is already diminished if they don't feel they have anything
to offer that you don't already have. So their self-doubt about themselves
shoves you into the arms of other women that they believe you will end up
with anyway so why waste their time now? Draw from women who have a healthy
sense of who they are, what they have to offer, and are content with where
they are in life. On the other point of how they feel when they are with
you, it is very important, in my modest opinion, that the woman feels they
are special in your life above and beyond any connection you have with other
women in your life (friends, co-workers, family, ex(s), etc.). You may show
interest, claim you show interest, think you show interest, but the end
result is, the women are not 'feeling' your interest and therefore
questioning and doubting it - and a confident woman would spot this also.


(Commenting on  "BigB (cheesy but anonymous)
I am curious, a lot of SS material is concentrated in its advertising as
being able to instill a method to "get the woman of your dreams."
However, a lot of posts here and otherwise, place above all
else in the SS hierarchy the ability or the necessity to walk away from
a woman who treats you like sh*t. That kind of squares in the face of
reasoning, if the woman who treats who like poop is the woman of your
dreams and can one postulate that SS fails in that regard?
The reason I bring it up is because I got into the whole shebang with
the SOLE reason of getting the woman of my blah, blah, blah. I didn't, I got
a whole lot else, but not here and I am not sorry for it, but it does make
me wonder whether SS is about the "10 million vaginas" out there or the one
that you so dearly want. (Dearly - AFC language, but it is the ONLY
reason we get into the SS deal right?)
Oh, on the Double Your Dating» series, has anyone read the other books
that are free, any use at all?")

Maxin writes:
Why would the woman of your dreams be one who would treat you like shit?
Personally, the woman of my dreams treats me quite well. You may need to
reevaluate what you are looking for, if you are focusing exclusively on
looks at the expense of attitude, it's unlikely you'll be happy.


I just wanted to jump in with an opinion of this
ongoing debate about how much looks has to do with
scoring.  In a lot of situations I've seen recently,
looks can do a lot more than get you the audition.  In
some cases it will get you the part...

Prime example:  July long weekend a bunch of us were
out at a lake camping out.  I'm sitting there talking
with this girl and am getting no reaction whatsoever.
I tried humor, I tried using SS (connection patterns,
fascination themes, etc), I tried busting her balls
and still nothing.  So I'm talking to someone else and
my roommate gets back to the site.  He is a pretty good
looking guy.  He's in good physical form, works out
often...Now, he hasn't even talked to this girl
before.  He sits beside her and doesn't even try to
make conversation with her.

5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on his
leg.  All he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a
bit, you wanna come?".  Her response "Only if you
take me somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't all
that important, then why do I see this guy, in
particular, get laid only on the basis of his looks??
And not just this happens all the time.
And here's me using my tongue like a chump!

Do you think this is maybe a more common occurrence
with younger (early 20's) girls?

My Comment  I also tend to think that this is the kind of thing that will
happen (if it does happen) with younger women.  There's no question that
many younger ones are very superficial and are only into looks (but, hey,
guys are mostly no better).  I personally believe that while it would have
been possible for you to get her attracted to you when she wasn't to start
with, but you have to execute whatever you try excellently and I can only
speculate that you were less than outstanding in your performance...


I really enjoy reading each post and appreciate you putting it all together.
I have to say though that I'm still on rung one of the process with all my
still getting in the way.

My Comment:  I think that fear is a major issue with a lot of guys and most
of us never completely get past our hesitation and fears.  I think that
those out there with some new suggestions on dealing with this should speak up.


>The key takeaway above was that I pulled up next to her, I assumed the sale
> >in a happy friendly way. If she wasn't so confident though, I would have
> >been dead in the water.
> The key was you didn't let HER hesitation become YOURS! Good!

A little follow up. During the debriefing, I asked when she decided we
would have sex. She said when she pulled into my complex (this was before I
got there), this points to my theory that much of seduction is just not
fucking up (this skill is more difficult than it sounds).
> I know this was a successful sarge, I am not questioning that. But for
> and others on the list, do you think this is a tonality issue or something
> that everyone comes across at some point when using tonality? Is this
> something I should
> change?

Definitely change it. Find everything that works and change it to something
that doesn't work : -) (sarcasm off). Don't be afraid of being different.
Revel in it and use it to the advantage it truly is.

On STD's in the US:
Find a Planned Parenthood and go there. I've never
gone for STD's but I hear they are great, especially if you don't have
money. I know from experience they are useful for procuring birth control.
> > My Comment There's no question about that, but talk to women and you
> see many of them will tell you that most good looking men are self
> absorbed, egotistical, etc. [snip]

Ask them about the ugly ones and they say "Oh, good question, I never
bothered to talk to them..." Being good looking is great, being good
looking and a skilled PUA isn't fair :-) I've known a few, and they were
great to hang out with. I learned a lot. One of the things was that being
good looking doesn't hurt your chances in any way except with some less
attractive girls (and a very small % of F-ed up chicks). It doesn't
completely make up for the skill necessary to close a 9+ though.
> Sisonpyh
> I noticed a common theme among the top pick-up-gurus that I know and have
> met
> In one way or another, they all say that "The most important thing is your

This is not the case with the best PUA I know.  In fact, they rarely say
this.  I've know some very good ones too.  They might imply it or admit to
if you pushed them but they didn't say it.  By the far the best one I know
(a new chick every time he went out, including models, waitresses,
bartenders, shooter girls, etc.) said every time "It's all about rapport."
He'd believed this was the key to all interaction with people.  There is
nothing in life that you do that isn't directly influenced by your attitude,
so say that is what it's all about is like saying fixing a car is all about
> A mentor once taught me that Competence = Confidence.

This is a good truism if you change the equal to a yields symbol. It's
clearly possible to be confident» without competence.
> 1) Model calm, confident guys and then imitate them. Check out some James
> Bond movies.... watch Thomas Crown... watch how Rhett acts around Scarlet
> Gone With The Wind. Notice the subtle things that these guys do. I've
> noticed that confidence and indifference are usually communicated by SLOW,
> deliberate movements.

Great advice.  Really monitor your movement.  Make is smooth and deliberate.
Don't look like a ferret on crack.
> 5) Fake it till you make it. I know, this sounds trite... but you really
> need to learn all of the things that add up to a confident, kick-ass
> attitude and then do them until they're natural. If you've ever tried
> playing a musical instrument, then you'll know what it's like to feel
> awkward. But after a few weeks of some basic exercises, you begin to feel
> like you can actually do them. And then, all of a sudden, one day you're
> playing songs. Fake it till you make it. If you stay with the part, no one
> is ever going to say "Hey, you're not really a confident guy, are you?
> re just faking it!"

Faking it till you make is great advice especially with something like this
where the risk is negligible and the reward is huge.
> NLP was originally developed as a method of doing THERAPY.

And what is therapy but to (attempt to) change someone's behavior?
> To summarize, he got a disgusted look on his face and said "What the hell
> are you talking about? That's faggot shit!"

But I bet you don't think it's faggot shit, do you?  To deny that it works
is foolish.
> I was shocked. I thought I was on the right track, but here I had this guy
> who was clearly a lot better than me at meeting women telling me that this
> stuff wasn't good for meeting women.
> These guys were breaking rapport early on, mismatching women's behavior,
> acting pushy, and all kinds of other VERY non-NLP type things. (Now, I'm
> sure that someone out there is creative enough to figure out how these are
> all actually explainable by NLP... but give me a break. They're
> by MODELING, but not by NLP).

Modeling is one the key concepts of NLP (and lots of other studies of human
> Anyway, my point is that learning straight NLP to pick up chicks is like
> learning how to build cars so you can drive one.

Well, if cars broke down as often as men failed at picking up chicks, you
would have to know how to build one to drive one...
> 1) Most of the really great pick-up artists that I've known don't use
> traditional NLP to do it.

Me neither, but my PU skill has improved using it quite a bit.
> 2) Most of the NLP experts that I know couldn't get laid if Jenna Jameson
> was in the room.

I doubt you would either :-)  Anyway at one point you said that some NLP
expert could prove that everything you modeled was NLP, and you are correct
because NLP is only a model itself and a flexible one at that, so it is to
make all communication fit into that model.  It doesn't mean NLP is right.
However plenty of people will attest that NLP really works for them (I'm one
of them).  All that said, I feel really weird arguing this, because I use
only a small amount of pure NLP in my PU.  I use a lot of stuff I modeled
from other PUA's and stuff I discovered myself.  Regardless, your name is
hypnosis spelled backwards, it's a hard sell to believe that you don't
believe language patterns can work to pick up chicks.


I was reading Sisophyn's book and noticed his comments about cleanliness...
he emphasizes bathing thrice before meeting a woman.  I kinda disagree.

Some of the best sarging I've done was when I was my sweatiest and
smelliest... at the gym.  Something about working out builds up testosterone
and sometimes when I am exhausted and drenched with sweat, that is when some
women seem most interested.

Of course, every woman is different...

In Europe, body odor is more accepted than in the over-sanitized USA.  But,
the fact is, our natural musk carries pheromones... so those who are
attracted by your olfactory emanations may be easier to sarge IMO than
those who are attracted by looks or clothing.

Typically, I just bathe and rinse thoroughly, never use deodorant or

I have found some light colognes that work with my natural chemistry to
enhance attraction.

And, on an unrelated note...

Another thing I've noticed... I was in the gym the other day walking towards
the cardio room when I noticed one of those annoying subscription cards
slipped out of the magazine I was carrying.  I stopped and turned to pick it
up I was surprised to see a cute HB walking behind me.  She gave me a look
when I turned around like, "Don't you dare try to speak to me..." so I just
ignored her, picked up the card and continued on.  While working out, I
noticed she was watching me, and when I walked by she had this look on her
face like, "He's going to say something to me, so I'll just act like a
bitch" but I just walked by as if she was invisible.

Later, she was in the weight room and I was working out on the opposite end
of the room.  She kept glancing over but I concentrated on my workout and
not on her.  As time continued, each set she did with her little dumbbell
she moved closer and closer to me.  Finally, she laid down on a bench right
across from me with her legs spread wide open while doing reclining tricep
curls.  I figured then was the perfect time to go ahead and sarge her... but
I noticed the cute receptionist had changed into shorts and a t-shirt, so I
dropped the weights and went over to sarge her instead.

But, it proves a point...

My Comment:  I too have had that experience of finding women particularly
attracted to me when I was
at my dirtiest and smelliest (not that that happens often, but it has
happened a few times to me several years ago).
And a friend of mine talks of when he was in a biker gang years ago, these
ugly smelly, dirty guys would get the hottest women you could imagine
because they didn't take any of their shit.


Tony B. (this is a letter to Ross that Tony wanted those reading this to see):
I would like to take a moment of my day to address something that I have
been pondering in regard to your techniques of teaching seduction and the
personification that you bestow upon women to your students.

First, I would like to come to a better understanding of why you label
women as "HB's" and "chicks".. have we reduced women to acronyms and
analogies of newborn chickens? I am confused by the labels that you are
putting on our mates of the opposite sex. Sure I understand it is a label,
but really; is it necessary to rebuild the concepts of women in your
students minds to acronyms and analogies of chickens?

A woman isn't a Babe, Chick, or Hottie, she is a woman. This damaging
outlook you are professing makes people prejudice and can cause people to
shy away from reality that "UG's" are human too. Personally I prefer the
company of more beautiful women, but I am not gonna tell some "UG" to kiss
my ass just cause she is ugly. Talking badly about people isn't going to
get you in a very positive light, and you never know what her friends look
like. I am not saying you have to sleep with ugly women, or become
emotionally involved with them, but I think that it would be more wise to
be nice to them by at least treating them like humans and recognizing their
existence without that terrible acronym.

It seems as if the act of "sarging" a woman is because they are desirable
creatures to be with, not because they are labels or analogies. I am sure
you are looking to form some sort of anchor to yourself by labeling them
"HB's" or "chicks" but is it really necessary? I am sure handing a student
a gold coin has much more effect to get them back in your seminar in 3-6
months, than labeling the members of the opposite sex for a method of
teaching. This labeling creates a serious amount of attention to the
opposite sex which they don't really deserve until they prove otherwise,
which drives me to my second question.

At closest, the homophone to the word "surge" is about all I can drum up.
Otherwise, I cannot think of why you are using this word to label an outing
for "finding women"; a desperate act in it's own. I am sure that many men
that don't regard outings as an act to desperately find women have a much
more rewarding experience. In my earlier days, I discovered that when I
wasn't in a great state to talk to women that I was actually more
successful. I also think that this goes along with the same theory "Things
are never that abundant if we are looking for them (or else, why would we
be looking for them), but it would seem that anything we have too much of
always seems to be chasing us around."

Again, I understand your need for labeling, and the influence that it
commands, as well as the anchor it forms, but the concept of many of your
students that I have met are that they feel obligated to talk to as many
women as possible. Sure, this will get them a lot of experience, but I am
not sure how much success this will really bring them. And moreover, the
assured success of your future directly relates to the success of your
students. If they aren't performing well with women, then they aren't gonna
keep coming back.

Since you are developing a product for the students that have "fallen off"
to come back to you, you might want to take this part into special
attention. The act of "turning lust down" is contradicted by encouraging
your students to pay such special attention to the members of the opposite
sex. Interpersonal skills that are entailed in this minor scope of human
psychology are much more important than just making a focus on just women.
I am sure that the majority of men that you teach would agree, if they use
the skills of seduction and psychology that they learn from you, they also
will notice their lives improving in many other aspects. And for someone to
be truly able to accept their fate with women, I think that they would have
to be comfortable with the way things are going within their own lives
(e.g. family, other loved ones, friends).

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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