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"Out of nowhere, two very old ladies came up to me"

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Out of nowhere, two very old ladies came up to me
7/28/01 1:04:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time


The bad news this month is that it seems that Ross will not be holding a
seminar in Montreal in August.  For whatever reasons, it isn't happening
this year but it doesn't mean he won't see the error of his ways and
schedule one for next year, right?

If you are in Montreal, email me and make sure you are on my Montreal email
list.  I will be scheduling some kind of event here shortly.


>I was reading Sisophyn's book and noticed his comments about cleanliness...
>he emphasizes bathing thrice before meeting a woman.  I kinda disagree.

Maybe this is a ritual that Sis finds increases his confidence so it works
for HIM. Personally, I don't think more than once is required, but to each
his own.
>I know a guy who used to put baby powder on his balls......he said women
liked the scent.

Whatever floats a guy's boat!

Tony B. (this is a letter to Ross that Tony wanted those reading this to see)
>I would like to take a moment of my day to address something that I have
been pondering in
>regard to your techniques of teaching seduction and the personification
that you bestow upon
>women to your students.

Note that your post has NOTHING to do with the techniques or the
methodology of what I teach, but your emotional reaction to the labels!

In other words, you not only don't see the forest..... you can't trees or
the branches or even the leaves!
>First, I would like to come to a better understanding of why you label
women as "HB's" and >"chicks"..

Why is it important to you?
>have we reduced women to acronyms and analogies of newborn chickens?

I don't see any reduction.  But hey, why don't you compensate and call them
"angels" and "goddesses". That way, you can help reach your goal of setting
the universe aright.
>I am confused by the labels that you are putting on our mates of the
opposite sex. Sure I
>understand it is a label, but really; is it necessary to rebuild the
concepts of women in your
>students minds to acronyms and analogies of chickens?

Necessary according to WHOM?
>A woman isn't a Babe, Chick, or Hottie, she is a woman.

Thank you, Gloria Steinem.  Hmm..I bet your great ambition in life is to
>This damaging outlook you are professing makes people prejudice and can
cause people to
>shy away from reality that "UG's" are human too.

Really? I guess the prejudice police are going to arrest me for
acknowledging the reality that some women are perceived to be more
attractive than others.  Sue me.
>Personally I prefer the company of more beautiful women, but I am not
gonna tell some "UG" to
>kiss my ass just cause she is ugly. Talking badly about people isn't
going to get you in a very
>positive light, and you never know what her friends look like. I am not
saying you have to sleep
>with ugly women, or become emotionally involved with them, but I think
that it would be more
>wise to be nice to them by at least treating them like humans and
recognizing their existence
>without that terrible acronym.

My. That paragraph is loaded with so many distortions and deletions, I
won't even try to enumerate them.
>It seems as if the act of "sarging" a woman is because they are desirable
creatures to be with,
>not because they are labels or analogies.

Do you enjoy this hair-splitting or is it a compulsion you cannot control.
>At closest, the homophone to the word "surge" is about all I can drum up.

Wow. You sure have trumped me with that better label! Thanks for improving
my tech to the next level!
>Again, I understand your need for labeling, and the influence that it
commands, as well as the
>anchor it forms, but the concept of many of your students that I have met
are that they feel
>obligated to talk to as many women as possible. you wish to regulate my students' meeting women to a level YOU
consider healthy. My my, you are the good Samaritan, aren't you?
>Since you are developing a product for the students that have "fallen
off" to come back to you,
>you might want to take this part into special attention. The act of
"turning lust down" is
>contradicted by encouraging your students to pay such special attention
to the members of the
>opposite sex.

No, it's called state control.


Dj eclypz:
Just a collage of quick comments...

The age issue

First of all, if age comes up and I think it might be an issue, then I tell
them, "I won't hold it against you. I have met some women who are 35 and
act like they are seventeen, and the other way around. Because it's not
really a matter of age. If you look at the bigger picture I'm sure you'll
agree, it's about time, and time is all we have, in order to grow and learn
and become who we are today, and who we will be tomorrow. Because the
person you are today surely won't be the same person you will be tomorrow,
after all you certainly are more than the limits you have had and haven't
had in place up until now, are you not?"

My age issue comes on the other spectrum. I'm 25 and I have found an
incredible liking towards women that are at least 35 and up.

As far as the penis enlarging capsules, we should all pitch in a few bucks
and buy Clifford the system (a little thank you present) and have him try
it out. Then he can tell us what he thinks and none of us would be out more
than a few bucks at the most. Not to suggest that Clifford has any issue in
the size department, I'm sure he's a beast!!!)

My Comment: Thanks for the suggestion but I would like to make it
absolutely, completely, totally and without question clear that I mention
it here only because I think it is an interesting related topic!  I would
prefer to hear from someone (and anonymously is ok, as long as somehow it
is clear that it isn't coming from someone who works for a company selling
this type of product) who has a real interest and gives us a report on
whether it really worked or not.

Dj eclypz continues:
As far as the introspections on NLP and seduction are concerned, the one
rule of thumb that I will remember for the rest of my life is:

If something that you're doing doesn't work, try anything else.

Wow, what a loop hole...

I take rapport away now, after having learned how to develop it easily.
It's called a take away, and it's been around for some time...

To Billy, the guy who used his words to create a state and then watched his
good looking friend come up and walk off with the girl to go have sex:

Only you can really tell what happened here, but it's not worth focusing
on. Instead focus on what you did right and then move on.

If I were to take a guess as to what happened here, I would say at least
three things are a possibility:

1. You didn't take away your energy. You need to learn how at some point to
give them a taste, and then back off and engage the rest of the crowd. Even
if she is totally into what it is you are saying...learn how to back off
and then wait for her to give signs she wants more. Sometimes they'll just
come out and say, hey finish what it is you were saying. If they don't,
then don't wasted your gift any longer than you can recognize there is
positivity to be found elsewhere.

2. Have you stopped to think that you did create all these feelings in her,
and didn't anchor it to yourself, so that when your friend sat down, she
acted on those things you were building up in her? Congratulations if
that's what happened, because now, you're half way there...I had this
happen early on when I would talk to a girl with a boyfriend or someone
else she was interested in. I would see her days or weeks later and she
would thank me for having helped her to recognize all the feelings she
thought were gone for this other person!!!!

3. She wasn't really paying attention to what it was you were doing in the
first place because she was already thinking about this guy friend of
yours, and you were just a distraction. Let me rephrase that; she viewed
your conversation as something distracting. Sometimes when someone else is
thinking about something else all you have to do is say something like this.

"You know, Sally, every now and then you just have to STOP, SLOW DOWN, and
recognize that what you really should do is ignore everything else around
you (wave around the whole group), as you focus more and more on this
opportunity that is in front of you (self point) before it slips away (pull
back physically at this point)."

Then go into a story about anything at all that involves gaining something
incredible before it get's away.

For instance, I was listening to National Public Radio and they were
interviewing Jesse Ventura, what an incredible piece of ass (sp).  And he
was talking about fate. He was actually trying to be an actor at one point
and he almost missed this opportunity to become governor because he wasn't
paying attention to what was happening in front of him. Anyways, he said
it's like this, "Sometimes something so incredible happens you just have to
take notice of this. And the strangest part of this is that sometimes you
wouldn't have recognized this chance of fate, until say six months from now
being able to look back upon it and seeing just how incredible this all is."


To Tony B.

I can't speak for Ross, but at first, I found his usage of terms like
hotties and HB's to be quite obnoxious, as well. And then I realized why he
does it, at least in my opinion. He is pacing most men's ongoing reality,
and then he will follow it up with "Look, women are just like us, they just
have different body parts". Major Mark may have said this but I think you
get my point...

As far as sargin' goes, it came from his cat, I believe. Some inside thing
with the name of his kitten...

Don't get caught up in the birdseed, Tony. Take what works for you, develop
your own code, and you're on your way!


Brother Marcus:
> Ok, here's another one someone has to look into and report their results
> for us.  This site, which I found in a recent issue of Maxim magazine, is
> about this herbal formula where you take two capsules a day and your penis
> will grow 1 to 3 inches over the next couple of months.  All for about $65
> US or your money back.

Um, Cliff, did you find this in editorial copy or was it an ad? I have to
say I'm impressed. These guys must have surfed a lot of gay porn sites to
find these before and after pictures. There are no links to these
"scientific studies" they refer to. Generic clip art, no proper names, this
thing just screams "scam" to me. It really galls me to have to be a wet
blanket on this one, but I'd advise everyone to steer clear. These just
don't look like the kind of people you should send credit information to.
Maybe if they are still in business in six months and your state Attorney
General's office Scam Page doesn't have anything on these guys...maybe. I
mean, just look at the list of ingredients; Oyster Meat?

Well, actually, I just did some research to back up my assertions for a
change, and though this isn't conclusive or anything, I found a forum where
a poor soul was having much trouble with them. I'll just post the link.

Here's another one; the results he reports are attributable to the placebo
effect--nothing measurable.

My Comment:  When something looks too good to be true, it usually is.  But
I am not sure I would go by comments on which is
probably the site of a competitor.  Secondly, this was a full page ad in
Maxim, if I remember correctly.  And if you go to the site, there's some
place where they ask you where you heard of it and it seems to have been
promoted in a great number of reputable seeming places.  While it could be
a scam, the material was very compellingly prepared.


Comments on:
"Billy: 5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on his
leg.  All he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a
bit, you wanna come?".  Her response "Only if you
take me somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't all
that important, then why do I see this guy, in
particular, get laid only on the basis of his looks??"

I keep telling you looks do matter. Would you fuck Rosie
O'Donnell, Roseanne Arnold or Janet Reno if she used NLP, modeling,
language patterns, angel dust or hemorrhoid nasal spray on
you?  This past week I have been experimenting with a slightly
different diet approach. My muscles look fuller and bigger than
in a long time and I look leaner and tighter all around. As a
result of this I've had about 8 women approach me within the last
three days. One of them is a stripper who wants me to be her
personal trainer. She even offered to pay for the sessions.

 From experience I believe that we all have things served to us
on a platter and it's up to us to take what we feel belongs to us.
Society has conditioned us to think that we need to work first to
acquire things and that is true but sometimes we over do it and
miss taking advantage of the opportunity that presents itself.

It's my belief that when a woman sees a man and they exchange a few
words she has made up her mind as to whether or not she has physical
attraction for guy within the first 60 seconds. It is at that point
that the man needs to take action and let her know that he feels
attraction for her as well. If he does not tell her of his attraction
for her, then she will think he is not interested and feel rejected.
If he does and she also feels attraction, then they can move forward
to a date, sex or some other form of mutual expression of attraction.
If she feels attraction for him but he continues to try and win it over
not realizing that she likes him already, then he sends out a signal that
he is not worthy of her. She picks up on this and he lowers his value in
her eyes. We do this by using techniques, methods, channelling, modelling,
mirroring, back flipping thinking they will turn an uninterested woman into
an interested one.

Here is the error - thinking initially that she will not be interested
and having to work to get her interest. If you go into a situation
where you think she is not interested you will act this way and turn
her off no matter what technique you use.

I believe it's preferred to indicate your interest in woman right away to
see how she feels. If she in not interested no matter what you do (and I've
there before) you will not succeed. I have spoken to many guys and they
claim to start off well, but hold back only to crash and burn. The best just go
for it right away because they either are interested or they are not; there is
no sense in wasting time.


1. To the gentleman who mentioned that body chemicals attract women and
washing three times isn’t always the best idea... I'm glad you brought that
up. I guess that it’s important to realize that there’s a difference
between the smell of "Dirty and unclean" and the smell of "Masculine
Perspiration," etc. I was trying to communicate that women can detect
smells far better than men, and if you’re the unclean type (even just a
little) you need to get that handled. If, on the other hand, you want to
wash three times, then go work out... THEN go out to meet women, hey, that
might work well for you.

2. On looks: If you go back and read my original ‘Ferrari and Lambo’
contribution, you'll realize that I was really trying to communicate that
if you’re attractive yourself then you'll probably get a better response
when you give women compliments than if you’re not as attractive. There
seems to have been a lot of twisting and taking my words out of context,
but that was the overall intended message.

3. On looks some more: Generally speaking, on average, blah blah blah,
looks make a significant difference. If you really want to read some
interesting perspectives on this, read "The Red Queen" by Matt Ridley. That
book will give you a good reality check. I'm sure that none of the people
who did the ten year mating ritual studies of Green Crested Sparrows EVER
get laid themselves, but they sure found out some interesting shit. NOW,
with that said, just because looks make a big difference ON AVERAGE AND IN
GENERAL doesn't mean that they have to be a limitation for YOU. Remember,
we’re talking on average here... and most of these ‘averaging’ studies were
conducted with people who didn't know what the hell the study was even
about. One of the great things about being human is that we can use
different roads to get to the same place. Hugh Hefner, who seems to do
alright with women, is obviously not the best looking guy around at age
157... of course, he’s an extreme example, but you get the point. I believe
that each of us can INDIVIDUALLY achieve our possible goals by being
creative and persistent. The critical distinction is whether you use the
incoming information to limit yourself or to achieve greatness. Just
because I say that being handsome helps you open the game doesn't mean that
I have a limiting belief. To me, it just means that I now have an advantage
because I am going to learn how to open with my personality and ingenuity,
and wind up being ahead of a guy who just has looks but no game... are you
with me?

4. On generalizations: I often write things to this list late at night
after interacting with a woman, or after talking to some guys about their
experiences, or whatever. And sometimes I'm guilty of making broad
generalizations and leaving some gaping holes in my ideas. Maybe I haven't
mentioned enough that I don't think I'm always right, and I don't think
that my ideas are the only way. I think that humans learn best by learning
the black and white first, then the shads of gray, then the finer shades,
etc. I once read Tony Robbins talking about something that John Grinder
(one of the original co-founders of NLP) taught him. My paraphrase is
"Don't believe anything too much, because there will come a time and
situation where it won't be true." I know that there are always situations
that argue with my ideas and logic. I get it. I'm just trying to contribute
more good foundational material for everyone to learn from. I'm assuming
that you can read between the lines sometimes and that you’re grown up
enough to not get caught up in the B.S. paralysis of analysis... and that
you'll take what I write and use it if it makes sense for you.

5. On NLP. NLP and hypnosis are great, and I love them (duh, would I have
continued learning all that I have if I wasn't seeing improvement?). But
again, learning standard NLP in order to improve success with women is way
too indirect, in my opinion. Like I said before, Ross has come up with an
innovative set of tools using NLP... but these aren't standard NLP, and no
one else that I've ever seen or heard of has come up with the techniques
that he’s developed. NLP will help you get your issues handled, and teach
you some interesting stuff about communication, etc. but stock NLP is not
what works with women.

6. On the real world Cliff’s list is great to me because it provides me
with great new ideas all wrapped up in an entertaining format. I mean, its
damn obvious to me when someone is speaking from a place of contribution
and experience as opposed to a place of trying to only get recognition for
themselves, sound macho, or whatever. Arrogance, insecurity, and
defensiveness are usually found together... Remember, no one on this list
really gives a damn about you specifically as a person. I mean, most of us
don't know each other at all. The only person who cares about you and your
success is YOU. And, conveniently, you’re the only one who’s going to be
able to do anything about it. If anyone is going to make anything happen
for you, it’s going to be you. If you take my words or anyone else’s words
and use them to limit yourself, then that’s your deal. I recommend that you
take what you learn and go USE it. Try each idea ten times, and then get on
the list and talk about what happened. Contribute, ask for help, do
something dammit. Once or twice isn't enough. Get out there and make an
effort. If you’re just starting out, it’s going to take some work to get to
where you want to be. But stick with it, you'll find your own way if you’re

7. Just like any other complex skill, success with women is the result of a
whole bunch of different factors... including your model of the world and
relationships, your beliefs, body language», voice tone, the situation, the
woman, your internal state, the other people in the situation, your skills,
your experience with this type of woman and this type of situation, blah
blah blah. I mention often that I know a lot of killer pick up artists, and
on average they have certain characteristics... but I also know all the
exceptions as well. I know a guy that’s 46 years old with long hair and a
pot belly that looks like a cross between a Shaman and a Biker (which he’s
both) who likes having two and three teenage bisexual girls at a time in
his stable. And no, I'm not kidding. Does this mean you should learn Indian
Magic and join the Hell’s Angels, gain some weight, and wait until you’re
46 because that’s when the hot menage action is going to all start
happening for you? Yes, that’s what I'm saying... lol. No, duh. Look, if on
average women are attracted more to men with red cars than men with black
cars, and you have a choice at the dealership, then go with red (hell, it’s
easier to keep red looking clean anyway). Well, I hope you get what I'm
saying. Use your brain and learn from experience (yours and others’).

OK, I think that I've done enough reframing for one session.


David Shade:
> Arte (Founder, New Sex Institute,
> How to Help A Woman Have Her First Female Ejaculations & G-Spot
> Orgasms - Part 2
> And while she¹s never ejaculated, never gone over that wall, never
> reached the realm of euphoric pleasure beyond what most people
> ever experience -- somehow she knows in her gut that once she lets
> go and ³lets it flow,² she¹s going to be completely out of control.
> That her physical being will be at the command of a stranger. That
> the stranger will be pulling her strings with the slightest touch
> of his fingertips.
> How can you possibly get a woman like this to let go like that?
> I can sum it up with one simple, lynch-pin word Trust.

Trust ain't gonna make her squirt.  Having the orgasm of her life ain't
gonna make her squirt.  For a woman who has never squirted, she has to
LEARN how to squirt.  It is a multi-step process.  You left out a few
critical steps in your fantasy story.
> That¹s all it takes; complete trust.
> A tall order? Yes. Do-able? Totally.
> In fact, it can be rather simple. You must demonstrate competence
> and confidence in bed; a true, honest, sincere level of respect for
> her as a person; and use simple body language» cues that I will
> reveal in the days and weeks ahead.

This is so much the "touchy feely" stuff taking up space on the
bookshelves.  "Be sensitive to her needs."  It doesn't give her the
skill set she needs in order to squirt.

The only book that thoroughly and honestly covers the topic of female
ejaculation is "The G Spot and Other Discoveries About Human Sexuality"
by Ladas, Whipple, and Perry.  Copyright 1982.  ISBN 0-440-13040-9.
They even say that the G-spot is not required for a woman to squirt.
(True)  But even it doesn't tell you how to TEACH a woman to squirt.

My Comment:  Squirt by David's website at


Billy I.:
>5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on
>leg.  All he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a
>bit, you wanna come?".  Her response "Only if you
>take me somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't all
>that important, then why do I see this guy, in
>particular, get laid only on the basis of his looks??
>And not just this happens all the time.
>And here's me using my tongue like a chump!
>Do you think this is maybe a more common occurrence
>with younger (early 20's) girls?
>>My Comment  I also tend to think that this is the
>>kind of thing that will happen (if it does happen)
>>with younger women.  There's no question that
>>many younger ones are very superficial and are only
>>into looks (but, hey, guys are mostly no better).  I
>>personally believe that while it would have
>>been possible for you to get her attracted to you
>>when she wasn't to start with, but you have to
>>execute whatever you try excellently and I can only
>>speculate that you were less than outstanding in
>>your performance...

Billy I. says:
It did happen, I saw it in right in front of my own
eyes and was later confirmed by my roomie.  I can see
how you might think that it was my delivery from the
limited amount that I wrote, but I don't think the
problem was *totally* with my performance...I used a
similar technique (modified for the situation and
girl) on a very hot girl at a bar two weeks ago and
got some serious making out, even though she had been
dating some dude for 7 YEARS and said she loved him a

My Comment:  There's really no guarantees in life about anything -- no one
guy can get every girl.  But here, she may have any number of reasons for
picking that guy over you.  I personally believe that there is always a way
-- not to say that I can do this, but I believe that there was probably a
strategy that you could have employed (obviously not the one you used) that
would have gotten her.  You can't look at what she does (you really have no
control over that), you can only look at what you do.

Billy I. Continues:  Primarily I have been using SS as a means of
seduction.  But, as with this girl, a lot of the
younger ones are not receptive to it, especially in a
bar setting...I have had decent success outside of
clubs, but with club chicks, the same methods haven't
been working as well.  So what has to happen to get
laid with superficial women (most of whom, in my
experiences, aren't all that bright to begin with,
thus not as receptive to vocal stimulation)?

My Comment: Lately I have been thinking a lot about "the truth shall set
you free" which ultimately incorporates Mark's style which I am sure you've
been reading about here.  And that is to be balls to the wall direct in a
very polite way.  You come at them all guns blazing and they are forced to
either bail out or let themselves be swept away.  And I think the majority
will succumb to the attractiveness and curiousity this creates.  Reread
Mark's stuff - ignore the stuff about being good looking because I think
it's what he's saying that is making the difference (looks don't hurt, but
I don't believe that is as important as he may think it is because I have
seen too many instances of not good looking guys do extraordinarily well
because of their skills and not due to their looks).  And if you think
looks are the only thing making the difference, you don't need to read this
but should go visit some plastic surgery sites.


Thomas (commenting to Sisonpyh):
I think that this is probably a case of marketing strategy...but I can't
help but wonder if with all the training and reading you've done about the
very broad field of NLP, if you are not still mistaking the tools generated
by NLP for the structure itself. I certainly agree that many of the
therapeutic tools are not all that useful for meeting and having sex with
women. But, that doesn't mean that the structure of the subjective
experience of being a successful PUA is not amenable to being modelled using
NLP. Calibration seems to be the skill most lacking in guys who do poorly,
IMO. They are often busy paying attention to their own internal environment
and ignoring the information streaming at them from the external.

I learned the bulk of my pick-up skills before I ever learned about NLP. And
the guy who taught me was a natural. But, later when the NLP skillset became
available to me, it was easy to unpack those skills in terms of what was
going on structurally in the communication. This makes it quite easy to work
with whatever content comes up and use it to direct her state in whatever
way I've calibrated is actually moving us in the direction of my desired

Anyway...I guess my point is that the *belief* set you seem to be
inoculating against in your post here, is (like most everything) is a
hallucination. And if your point is to reframe it to something more useful
for guys who might think its a huge long process to get to the stuff they
can actually use, I can certainly see that. But, if this is a fairly
accurate representation of your own beliefs about NLP and limitations in it
that you perceive, I invite you to consider stepping into another perceptual
position and have a look from there. Changing someone's state with a pattern
interrupt or future pacing them past the first two dates to the one they
*believe* is the magic one, or getting them to use a TDS to find their own
most romantic moment and attach it to you, are all NLP generated tools.

I know a lot of natural Mack Daddies. And they do well with a certain set of
women that they have honed their skills to work with. But, often they get
bogged down when they want to find someone to relate to in a different way,
because they have built their tools empirically over time, and would require
another large lot of trials in order to build tools for a different purpose.
With NLP, I can build whatever tool I want, on the fly with a specific
outcome in mind. I've used it to get promoted at manage my bosses
and those whose boss I and bed women....neutralize people who are
trying to do me harm...any number of possibilities that abound wherever
people interact. My own very useful hallucination, is that I can take
anything apart with NLP. Therapy or sales or macking or religion or
modelling or whatever. But, maybe this is just a labelling quibble. I guess
I'll have to get your book and find out, eh?


In defence of Mr Reality.
Recently in an article someone lambasted Sisonpyh (some
say SinsoniF others say SisonPee) on his idea that
different people saying the same thing have different
effects. The following might help those who
misinterpret to rethink.
I was having lunch today in cafeteria. I had this nice
baseball top on. Suddenly out of nowhere, two very old
ladies came up to me and said to me
"We've been admiring your top..where did you get it?"
I told them and said thanks and as they left I said to
myself "If it had been a pretty young thing who had come up
to me and said that, my response would have completely
different...and there's no amount of sarging skills
that these two women can have that would get me
interested"..that was REALITY.
The Sisonpyh Reality is this: the deliverer of a
compliment as well as many other things affect the
value of the compliment.
Get real: back up your LANGUAGING skills with EVERY
OTHER little thing that will work in your favour


One request and one offering
Hey gents, I have been studying SS for about the past 3 years, and not
failing nearly enough.  I have realized that I resist even attempting
because this is now a hugely stressful/negative area for me.  At this time I
am focusing on one single objective  "Just have fun/ find my enthusiasm."
I realize I have been forcing myself a lot, and have lost that boyish
enthusiasm. I know there are awesome PUA's/SS guys on here, but I really
don't care about the master's techniques right now.  Right now, all I want
is to have fun.  THEN, I plan to work on how to have fun AND be smooth,
challenging, etc..  I care WAY too much about the result, and I want to get
back to the feeling of being a kid on the playground.

My questions is to those of you who have gone from NOT having fun with this
stuff, to having fun  "What did YOU do to make it fun again, to regain that

I know that there are a lot of people who may have an opinion on this, but I
would really like to hear responses from those people who have actually
experienced this themselves, and what THEY did. I don't care about
success with women right now, just about having fun around women.  Currently
it is like this big pressure situation.

As a note, I am doing a lot of personal work on myself (initially inspired
by my struggles with this PUA thing!), and have become a lot happier overall
recently - I don't think being happy is necessary to have success with women,
but it's what I want.   For those interested, I highly recommend the "Freeze
Framer" learning program ($25) available at  It is basically a very easy meditation
procedure and CD.  I do it between 5 minutes or up to 30 minutes most days a
week (it is actually very easy and enjoyable with the music!).  It has
helped me focus on the positives in life and help put the negatives in
perspective--it really has helped me shift from being extremely critical to
being appreciative and positive about the awesome shit in life (and it is
really fun too!).

I also use (and recommend) the book Mastering Your Hidden Self by Serge
Kahili King - there is  a meditation technique called the Ha or Haipule Prayer
which is described at the end of the book.  This is also a great centering
and inspiring technique. Great stuff, but I tend do the Heartmath
meditation more often -- see what suits you.

For those of you who care to share your personal experiences to enlighten
me, I appreciate it.  And most of all, I appreciate that there is a forum
such as this.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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