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"The Big Toe Technique"

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The Big Toe Technique
7/31/01 2:00:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Gentlemen, in this as well as the following post I want to tell you about
a new technique I have been using that has greatly reduced flaking by
increasing rapport very early on. Those of you on ASF will be
familiar with it but you'll now see my particular way of using it  to sarge
these lovely young ladies.

The book I learned this from is "Secrets of the Cube" by Annie Gottlieb
and Slobodan D. Pesic. Check it out on and at this website:

I recently met a young nubile 19 year old at a local college where I had
given a recital (those of you who don't know me, I'm a concert pianist). I
with her for 15 minutes after the concert and got the digits.

Fifteen minutes into our first phone conversation I fire off my new

'Have you ever been cubed?' I ask.
'The cube. It's an ancient visualization game that will reveal things
about yourself that even your best friends don't know. Also, I get to find
out if you're the kind of person I might want to get to know better. I've
got a few minutes, so let's try it. You'll really love it. I guarantee it!'

Now guys a word of advice, as you read the following sarge, answer the
questions at the same time for yourself and play the game using your
imagination. DON'T CHEAT!  Because you will ruin the fun since you can only
do the cube once. Then you'll not only be impressed at the results it will
yield but you will also
learn how to interpret it so you can do it with a woman.

'Imagine a desert' I tell her.'  This can be a real desert you know, one
you've seen in pictures, or a pure fantasy.
In this desert there is a cube. How big is it? What color? What texture?
What is it made of (if you can tell)? Is it solid or hollow (if you know)?
How far is it from you? Is it sitting flat on the sand, or in some other
Write down five adjectives describing your cube: the mood it conveys as well
as its physical qualities.
Now in the desert there is also a ladder.
What's the ladder made of ? Where is it (in relation to the cube)?
Approximately how many rungs does it have-many, several, a few?

In the desert there is also a horse.
What kind of horse is it?
What color? Where is it?
What is it doing? Does it have on a saddle or bridle, or not? If so what
Somewhere in the desert is a storm.
What kind of storm is this? Where do you see it?And does it affect the cube,
the ladder, and the horse, or not?
If so, how?
And finally, in this desert there are flowers?
Where are the flowers?Are there many, or a few?
What color, what kind?'

(Don't read any more until you guys have your picture clear in you head! Then
and only then read on...)

She thinks about all this and gives me the following description:
'My cube is small, it's resting flat on the ground and is the same color
as the desert. It's hollow. My ladder is made of wood, has a lot of rungs
and is lying on the ground next to the cube. It's standing straight and
pointing towards the sky. My horse is lying on the ground next to the cube
and he's sleeping. My flowers are beautiful and spread out  all around the
cube but aren't actually touching it. The storm is big but it's sort of
moving away from the cube and the rest of the picture, towards the horizon.'

'All right then,' I answer.
The cube represents you!! The way I interpret it, you are a soft spoken
introverted woman. (The size of the cube represents ego and your perception
of your place in the world, Christ, what I would pay to see Ross' cube! Just
kidding buddy!) You don't like to stand out from your environment which
is why your cube is the same color as the desert. My guess is that you feel
very uncomfortable around people who are extroverted and talk loudly (as I'm
saying this I'm talking softer and slower, since her cube has just indicated
the preferred way of communication). The fact that it is hollow may mean you
are confused about who you are. Waiting to be fulfilled with the energy of
someone strong and inspiring.

'Wow!' she exclaims,' that's exactly right. In fact, I dumped my last
boyfriend because he was SO loud when we were with other people, I couldn't
stand the embarrassment. And I do feel like I'm not sure of who I am at the
moment. I have a lot of unanswered questions.'

'Good. So let's go on to the ladder and the horse  The ladder represents
your social circle. A wooden ladder can mean that your friendships are
warm, loyal and comfortable but on the negative side, you can be easily
hurt and
overly tolerant. The fact that your ladder is lying on the ground (a rather
rare thing) can mean that you depend on your friends mostly for fun and
companionship. Nothing too intense. But it can also mean that you may have
friends who are ill, down, and out, or in trouble. Perhaps you have a
tendency as well to be a bit of a slacker or a party animal.'

'Well, you have a point' she says. 'I've just discovered I need to move out
of my apartment because all my roommates do is smoke pot and party all
night. I myself smoke too much pot and am not getting enough work done.
Wow! This cube
thing is impressive!'

  I continue, 'Your horse represents your lover. The fact that he is  lying
on the ground indicates to me that your sex life is dormant right now. For
some reason, you don't feel passionate about sex at this point in your life.'

'Right again! The reason is because between the ages of 14 and 16 I was
molested by a guy who was thirty. I babysat for him and he took advantage of
me. And now I admit that I do tend to be attracted to guys who are jerks.
Right now there's a part of me that doesn't want to be a woman. I would
rather remain a little
girl. (This explained that fact that she had a tendency to giggle a little
too often. That and the pot...)

'The flowers represent children in your life. You love them but are not
ready to have any since they are rather far from your cube. The storm
indicates how you view problems in your life. In your case, the storm is
receding into the distance meaning perhaps that a new chapter is opening for
you, one with exciting new opportunities and new directions. (Obvious
portal to SS languaging.)'

Needless to say, she was blown away. I had so much rapport by then that we
made plans for her to come over to my place the following week, skipping the
coffee date entirely.  She did. The first time, we dry humped and hugged .
She didn't want to kiss. But thanks to the cube and its revelations into her
problems, I understood that patience would be necessary. Now I don't make it
a habit to sarge chicks with histories as nasty as hers, but in her case I
made an exception because I knew that behind that girlie exterior lay a hot
and horny woman wanting desperately to explode. I knew this because of the
way she ate a strawberry I fed her while we were sitting on my couch. The
way she wrapped her tongue around it had me looking down to make sure my
zipper hadn't exploded, just to give you an idea.

The second time she spent the night, after lots of SS I finally ending up
making out with her (she's an incredible kisser) but still no full close.
Then I simply forgot about her and sarged other women (not that I had ever
stopped).  Well, one day out of the blue she called me and told me she wanted
to come down to Montreal (she was living in a small town two hours away and
had no car) just to see me. I could tell this wasn't an offer to help me
prepare my income tax. I wasn't disappointed. She showed up and didn't waste
a minute. We had the most intense sex I've ever had.

This next part is the beauty of it. After admitting that she had no problems
imagining herself making out with another woman (Gee I wonder how that
subject came up! ;-) she also admitted to me that though after our second
meeting her perception of what relationships were supposed to be (she was
heavily into the typical 'someday-my-prince-will come-sweep-me-off-my-feet
and -marry-me-and-we'll-live-happily-ever after mindset') had been severely
shaken by my description of the 'friends plus program' (credit to Rick for
that one), she had an incredible revelation that this was far better for her
than the way she used to be. She told me that she now feels like a real woman
and that she is so able to put the past behind her that she no longer feels
any attraction to the kind of jerk she use to hang with before.

SS has once again snatched a young woman from the clutches of jerkdom.

A word about the cube game. I highly recommend it.I tell you honestly guys,
the last four SS closes were greatly helped by this new technique. I
sincerely believe that it is as powerful if
not more so  than hand writing analysis (which I still do in combination
with the cube). The cool thing is that they will themselves interpret it for
you, just like this one did. The game itself is easy to do because it's just
common sense (i.e. floating cube = dreamer, visionary  whereas cube resting
on ground = realist, well grounded, obviously depends on the other
elements in the pictures). It gives you an incredibly clear map of how to
seduce her. Read the next post and find out how I used it again to close the
most beautiful woman I've ever slept with.

(Below is a separate post from Tristan):
This post is directed to both Ross and Sisonpyh.

I recently bought Sisonpyh's book and read it from cover to cover. I have
also read all the fascinating exchanges between him and Ross. Though there were
times when both approaches seemed at opposite ends of the spectrum, I have
just discovered that they are perfectly compatible. Let me explain

First of all I highly, highly recommend Sisonpyh's book. The booklet
entitled "lovers and provider's" alone is worth it, because his
classification of  the 8 categories of male behavior is nothing short of
brilliant. Not to give it away, but I can tell you that being the seducer
type (think Don Juan de Marco) he made me realize that I should add more
'Adventurer' (i.e. James Bond's cool with Letterman's sarcasm) to my mix,
which has resulted
in my greatest success to date.

And also, I had a chance to hear Sis on the phone conference he held and I
can say that I was impressed. His tonality is calm and confident. He gives
the impression of being very, very comfortable with women and his ideas are
very clearly based
on tons of field tests. He often seems to be misinterpreted
which is why I recommend people read his stuff all the way through before
making a decision.

As for Ross, well, what can I say. This man literally brought me out of the
greatest depression I had ever been in. Years of AFCdom had brought my life
to a grinding halt. Thanks to him I have completely turned it around. (I
also have to thank Major Mark, those of you on his list know what I'm
talking about see I have had 5 closes
in just the last few months. Also, my new found confidence with
women has carried over to other aspects of my life.

Last week, I met a 19 year old that I would definitely call a 9. By far the
most beautiful woman I've ever sarged ever since starting SS a year ago.
She's a violinist
(damned good one too!) and from rumors I've heard, a stripper also which
gives you an idea of how she might look.

I met her backstage at a concert she was playing. Bla Bla Fluff, and then I
sit down next to her (we all went to a local bar after) and did her hand
writing and, of course, the cube.

Once again, the cube reveals something VERY useful. She told me that for
the horse, two images popped into her mind. The first was a merry go round
with many horses which circled her cube. The second was a lone horse who was
contently eating away at some grass. Her exact words to describe the second
picture 'it's as if he doesn't really care about the cube.'

Naturally having been given this ammunition I HAD to use it since it gave
me the most important clue to the type of woman she was.

I tell her what the cube the ladder and the flowers mean. Then when I get to
the horse I look at my watch and say ' listen it's been fun, but I gotta
go.  For Christ's sake, it's 4 am already! (can you say ' takeaway'?)

She looks at me utterly shocked and says 'but you haven't told me what the
horse means!'

'Look it's late, walk with me since we're going in the same direction and
I'll tell you.'

We start walking. Now let me explain. Her first 'horse' (the merry go round)
was so obviously a sign that she's used to having many guys around her who
would do anything for her that I immediately knew that I had to behave
completely differently than they would.  As we all know it's best
not to compliment a 9 or a 10 too much because that's what they get all the
time.  (Unless of course she's a 9 or 10 with low self esteem , in which case
the rule doesn't apply.)  So I didn't. No compliments, rather I REALLY put
Sisonpyh's (look man, you have got to find a name that is easier to spell!)
advice to use and I spent the evening  just teasing her,
having fun (never in a nasty way, though, I should  add) and doing the
takeaway so she would have to run after me.

As we're walking away, we are interrupted by another guy in the orchestra
who starts complaining to her that she doesn't return his phone calls, emails,
etc. This of course confirms her 'player' status in my mind. After thirty
seconds of this I turn around and walk away. I don't wait after a woman no
matter how gorgeous she may be, period.

I'm at least two blocks away when I hear the sound of her little footsteps
behind me and her lovely voice calling my name. (I was told the next day
that the other orchestra players watching this were blown away, since they
had never seen HER run after a guy.;-)  We walk, I tell her what the first
horse picture means. She agrees and adds 'Yeah, I've been known to manipulate
men before.'  Then I analyze the second picture (the lone horse eating away
at the grass).

'What you really want is a man who you cannot have (SP, obviously!).  He's
strong, independent and has his own life. You don't like 'nice guys' (point
away) because, let's face it, they are SO boring.'

'You're right' she says, 'in fact I'm about to dump my orchestra boyfriend
because he's just too affectionate.' (more info for me.)

So at this point it's time to set up another meeting. I tell her to come to
my place the following Friday to just get together and play some Beethoven
sonatas... I'm giving her the 'you might make a good friend' vibe, which she
is obviously NOT used to!
My parting words are (and this is a killer!)  'I had an interesting time
with you. You SEEM like you might be an intelligent woman.'

The look on her face was priceless. She blurts out a rather indignant 'Well,
I certainly hope so!' and then we go our separate ways.

Fast forward to yesterday.
She comes to my place as planned. No flaking, and she's on time. She's
earning points.

We play some Beethoven. As we're playing, I'm busting her balls and doing
more Sisonpyphy type stuff, saying things like 'Look, would you mind NOT
hitting my piano with your bow? Do you know how much this thing costs?' or
after she accidently pressed the
buttons on my fax machine, 'Watch it! You're deprogramming my fax machine.
  I'll have to make sure you don't get close to my computer!' or 'That was
well played but you're in the wrong key. I think I like Beethoven's version
better!'  All these quips are delivered with a smile, of course. And she
herself is smiling the whole time (as Sis says, this is how you know that
you're teasing a woman and not insulting her).

We go into the kitchen and talk.  More about the cube. She is fascinated by
it and has already cubed her friends. She then asks me about MY cube (this,
by the way, is a sign that they are REALLY interested. Every woman who has
asked me about my cube I ended up having sex with. There have been four so
Of course, I knew she would and put into motion the next step in my plan
(does the Batman ever NOT have a plan?).

I tell her about my cube, my ladder, my flowers, and the storm (kudos to anyone
of you guys who can guess what my cube looks like. Ross? Tom? Major? Any
takers?). But I PURPOSELY switch the subject before I get to the horse. Of
course, she wants to know about the horse. To which I respond, 'Hey! I hardly
know you! Let me wait until I get to know you better and then maybe I'll
tell you.' All said with a sly grin.

I continue on the subject of relationships  'Yeah, a few months ago I was
interviewed by a woman who was directing a documentary on male female
relationships in the twenty first century. (This is true, by the way, it's an
NFB documentary in which there will be a small part on how SS changed my
life, plus me sarging some babes on the streets of our fair city.) She was
fascinated by my particularly original take on the subject.'

Of course, now she HAS to know. She's following me around the apartment
asking questions (since I keep changing the subject). At one point she says
'let me guess, you lived in a "menage a trois" (a threesome)'.

I look at her, raise an eyebrow (a la 'Mister Spock') and say 'Hey, you're
pretty smart!' Change the subject again. But, damn her, she keeps wanting to
find out!

So I begin phase two:
'Well, you see, it's like this. I did have a great relationship with two
gorgeous women for quite some time (by the way, this isn't true guys, but
after what happened last night, gimme a couple of weeks and it WILL be!).
And it made me realize that only a bisexual woman has the open mindedness
that I look for. There are no mind games, there's no jealousy since we're
all sharing each other so it's incredible! That's why now I ONLY DATE

She looks at me wide eyed and IMMEDIATELY blurts out 'You know I'm REALLY
open to this kind of thing. In fact, I've already had sex with four women!'
(down boy!! down boy!!)

At this point, I KNOW we're going to end up in bed together. But I continue:
'Well, though, I have to be frank. I'm sort of disappointed in the
women I've been meeting lately. They all seem to think they can maintain
my interest just with their good looks (remember, I'm dealing with a player
here) and they just don't realize that I need more. So I'm just waiting to
see if one will rise out of the pack.' (credit to Ross for this brilliant

She is totally silent. I go on, 'You see, I walk through life with my eyes 100%
open, I don't promise to deliver anything nor do I promise to hold anything
back. But the course of an evening...a woman...starts to feel a
strong attraction to me...then if she takes that bold step forward and I
like the
energy being presented, then I...DON'T ALWAYS SAY NO!! (More Jeffries'

She doesn't say a word!!

Well, to make a long story short it took less than 15 minutes after that to
get her into my bed.

Now the next part is to try to get her to bring of her gorgeous friends
over to play some Bach trio sonatas, if you know what I mean. ;-)

So in closing, I want to point out that being a ball buster is something
that Ross himself does, and as far as SS in Sis's approach, well, Sis in my
opinion, when you talk to a woman about the joys of cuddling vs. sex, that
is very close to
SS. So I want to thank both Sis and Ross. Your brilliant work has
done some fantastic things for me. I'll be forever grateful!

One final note: you might be asking yourselves, why I would choose to sarge a
woman who seems so superficial. Well, there are several reasons.
1-she's bisexual
2-once I made it clear that I wasn't a chump, she started to reveal that in
fact she was a very interesting sensitive and open minded woman, one that
was just looking for some good times.
3-she's bisexual
4-she really is a very talented violinist
5-she's bisexual

'nuff said.


While I haven't tried it, several people on and a
search on Yahoo claim that is a rip-off. It's
really hard for me to believe that a pill alone would give greater
size to a man's best friend. I also noticed that looking at the website,
there is no plain old snail-mail address, and this to me is a red flag.
Look Cliff, if I remember correctly, you're also over 40, and much less
prone to believe everything you hear. Based on some of the questions
here on the list, I would say most of the guys are mid to late 20's. As
the man running the list, you do owe these guys some measure of
responsibility to at least show them how to investigate wild claims and
not let youthful exuberance take the place of common sense.

My Comment:  I thought that was what I was doing.  I did not recommend the
product, only remarked that it looked interesting and someone should check
it out for the rest of us.  I think if I were to just dismiss it because it
sounds too good to be true would be very narrow-minded of me.
I hope that it is clear to those reading this when I recommend something
and when I am only mentioning something interesting, and if not I will do
what I can to make that very explicit.


Dj eclypz:
A quick comment to Billy I.:
On seriousness, having fun, and meditation...

Billy, I, too, know where you're coming from. I have been practicing SS and
NLP for two and a half years now, and sometimes my eagerness to learn and
succeed has taken on a new life, and I actually ended up getting dragged
down by it all. There have been times where people that are close to me
have stopped and said, 'Hey John, chill out. You don't have to approach
every damn girl here.'  Now, with that said, they were right and wrong all
in the same breath. What they see as desperation on my part is more like
ferocious determination. But they do have a point. I was letting my
ferocious determination become so ferocious that it swallowed me whole, and
I lost myself in it to the point that I could no longer see anything else
around me. For instance, I could be talking with a woman, so lost in the
techniques and principles I was applying that I wasn't able to recognize
that there is a person having a conversation about something I truly love.
Not to mention I was biting my foot by getting too caught up in the
techniques, to the point where this person in front of me became a
"project" rather than a person. Perhaps I just lost out on meeting a person
that I have things in common with. Are you with me so far?

I have found that the biggest challenge for me is not learning the skills
themselves, but taking those skills, and integrating them into the person I
am. It's almost like a hard drive where you can partition a new hard drive.
In a vacuous environment, they exist and are there, but in order for me to
gain access to them, I have to step outside of my main hard drive. We
aren't computers. Well, let me restate that, it wouldn't be useful to look
at that part of a computer in order to create an intriguing future and a
new person you want to become. Seriousness is way overrated, Billy, I
suggest you drop it quickly...

One last thing, you mentioned meditation. I believe meditation is a great
tool and skill as well. I also firmly believe most of us are meditating on
one thing or another at all times of our lives. So it's not a question of
learning how to meditate, but meditating on different things. Even more
than that I would like to suggest that Mystery had a great point a long
while back when he proposed instead of meditating, that you get out and
talk to people. He was really on to something. Meditation is great, but
there comes a point in time when you meditate and it once again takes on a
new life. If you meditate in the wrong way for too long, or you focus too
much on meditation and not on action, then you completely reinforce the
very thing you were trying to escape from. What do I mean? Well, you create
too much emphasis on your ideals of the world, and what is going on in your
own head, than to step outside of your own house and meet someone and live
outside of your head for a moment.

Am I saying meditation is a bad thing? No...

I'm just saying that sometimes the best thing for a person to do who is
having a difficult time having fun with all of this, is to step way the
fuck out of your head, and realize that any lack of fun was on your part,
not the world's because the world is waiting for you with all it's splendor
and pleasure...


Mike P.:
I had a question for Ross. I know that modeling is at the heart of NLP
and that SS is really NLP used for seduction. I know that the founders
of NLP modeled Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir and Fritz Perls. What I
was curious to know what who did Ross model when he created SS?


David Johnson ( - NLP & SS):
>I keep telling you looks do matter. Would you fuck Rosie
>O'Donnell, Roseanne Arnold or Janet Reno if she used NLP, modeling,
>language patterns, angel dust or hemorrhoid nasal spray on
>you?  This past week I have been experimenting with a slightly
>different diet approach. My muscles look fuller and bigger than
>in a long time and I look leaner and tighter all around. As a
>result of this I've had about 8 women approach me within the last
>three days. One of them is a stripper who wants me to be her
>personal trainer. She even offered to pay for the sessions.

I think it is important not to forget a single
intangible that also can help many of us pick up
women.  Sex Appeal.  I have sifted through many
discussions about guys that are unkempt, bad body
odour, not attractive in the conventional sense and
yet they still managed to pick up women.  I believe one of
the major reasons for this is their attitude/sex
appeal and the way it is perceived by others.  I have
a friend that is prematurely bald and yet he
continues to pick up young gorgeous women.  And what
they always say to me is 'Wow, he is just sexy!'.  I
am happy to say that I also have had a number of women
say I am sexy.  Now has this been built into my
conversation framework?  It is based on my looks?  On
my attitude?  Is it something that anyone can develop?
I am not really sure.  I am interested in what others
think about the chemistry and development of 'being
sexy' and sex appeal.


Could you ask on the list for anyone in the Boise area to email
'big***1@ao***.com[ ? ]'?

This city has over 200,000 people, it's NOT the hick
town people think.  Include the surrounding (20
minutes away) areas and it goes around up to 250,000 or
300,000 people.  And no one on ASF lives here : (

Do you like product reviews on the list?  I've
bought a shitload of stuff lately (KenXtions,
DoubleYourDating, Advanced Macking, and a lot of
books.... even have a DVD on the way on how to pick
up) and perhaps it would be helpful to review this

My Comment:  Again, it seems that my thoughts aren't clear.  I think one of
the most useful parts of this list is product reviews and I strongly
encourage them.


Alpha Male»:
>Brother Marcus
> Ok, here's another one someone has to look into and report their results
> for us.  This site, which I found in a recent issue of Maxim magazine, is
> about this herbal formula where you take two capsules a day and your
> will grow 1 to 3 inches over the next couple of months.  All for
about $65
> US or your money back.

As regards the penis lengthening stuff, there is one article in particular
that I have found
to be very interesting, and the method is
found at
> Sisonpyh
>1. To the gentleman who mentioned that body chemicals attract women and
>washing three times isn't always the best idea... I'm glad you brought that
>up. I guess that it's important to realize that there's a difference
>between the smell of "Dirty and unclean" and the smell of "Masculine
>Perspiration," etc. I was trying to communicate that women can detect
>smells far better than men, and if you're the unclean type (even just a
>little) you need to get that handled. If, on the other hand, you want to
>wash three times, then go work out... THEN go out to meet women, hey, that
>might work well for you.

On the point of smells, I find that a shower followed by some very specific
colognes works best, try two of them, L'eau D'Issey By Issey Miyake and
Joop work wonderfully, the first one is an absolute killer, anyone have any
other sugesstions?

Also, Cliff, why don't you consider starting another list, one on sex

My Comment:  Firstly, I have been known locally for being a very welling
scented individual (I get a lot of compliments on my colognes and the way I
smell) but the one time that I can remember recently getting really bad
reactions was when I tried Joop!!  So obviously this stuff smells
differently on different people.  As for a second list on sex techniques, I
think there are plenty of those out there if you want to search for
them.  I prefer to just post the occasional good tips that get sent in here
that I think may be of interest to those reading this.


Dwayne (Here's to the crack that never heals
The more you rub it, the better it feels
My buddy's company was having happy hour and he invited me to tag along.
His boss was married to this hot Latina from South America and she was
itching to dance, but he was not much of a dancer, so she asked if I would
dance with her (assuring me it was okay with her hubby).  Well, I said I
wanted to finish my drink first (just to be sure this guy wouldn't go to his
car and grab a shotgun) and figured while I was at it I'd practice some
harmless patterns (harmless because the fact was she was going home with her

Well, a song came on that she liked (Ricky Martin, I think) and as she took
my hand and led me to the dance floor, I told her, "I only do the Lambada."
So, she just straddled my thigh and we did the Lambada for several songs.
Well, I was feeling the alcohol and decided to get stupid... so we were doing
everything from the Charleston to the Curly Shuffle (whoop, whoop, whoop).

I noticed that a lot of wimmin in the room were watching... and a couple
danced over between songs to try and get me to dance with them.  I guess if
my brain were working, I would have danced with and sarged them... but as I
said I was getting pretty looped.

In the past, when Bud and I went to this place, we used to get shot down
like the Hindenberg.  Forget SS or patterns, we'd barely get "hello" out of our
mouths before the blinding flash and the mushroom cloud.  But seeing me with
this other woman seemed to turn the girls on.

On the way out (and keep in mind I was schnockered) there was the most
beautiful girl working as hostess at the front entrance.  She was perched on
a tall stool, so I kneeled down, removed her shoe and sensuously kissed her
big toe.  She was instantly turned on and it looked like it would be an easy
sell to get her... but the drinking impaired my judgment and I walked out
behind Bud and his co-workers without thinking of asking her phone number.

My Comment:  I gotta remember that, the big toe technique...


> I take rapport away now, after having learned how to develop it easily.
>  It's called a take away, and it's been around for some time...

When you do a takeaway you don't do it by turning off rapport.  You merely
take away an opportunity so that a person has an opportunity to appreciate
the opportunity more and not take the opportunity for granted.  Taking the
opportunity away may help them to affirm that it is something that they want.
The take away also acts as a powerful tool for fractionation.


Re Ross
>Perhaps in an effort to distinguish themselves from Speed Seduction»(R) for
>marketing purposes,  or perhaps for other reasons some of the "experts" on
>this list have been advocating what I can only call a "dumbed-down" means
>of dealing with women.

I personally find that it's easier for me to bear some basic principles and
understandings in my head, and beyond that use my gumption, intuition, and
intelligence, rather than turning "seduction" into such a complicated science.

By "principles" I mean something like this, with no particular order and
without even trying to be comprehensive:

- Women find honesty attractive in a man.
(1) Express sincere feelings and
(2) Women love that. They don't get it enough.
- Be a man. Women hate wusses, wimps and pussies. (3) - She won't have sex
with me unless she's turned on to me. Therefore, one of my goals is to turn
her on. She needs to be primed for sex. I do what it takes based on the
situation and the girl.
- Be yourself. Don't pretend to be someone you aren't. (4)
- The key is knowing how to read women, how to read the situation, and
taking appropriate action. (5)
- She wants it just as much as I want it.
- Rapport is vital. (6)
- Let her do most of the talking. (7)
- Pay attention and listen without hanging on every word, slobbering, being
giddy, etc. (8)
- Be laid back, cool.
- Slow down. Slow down your speech and movements.
- Women are intrigued by the guy who seems not to be intrigued by them, the
guy who is different, the guy who presents a challenge to them.
- Persistence pays off, so don't be phased by initial resistance. Her
resistance is just a role that she's playing, and I have to play the man's
role and persist. (9)
- Women like men who make them laugh because very few know how to do that. A
sense of humor is very attractive. There are many ways you can develop your
sense of humor.
- Do fun things. That will attract fun-loving women.
- Allow nature to take its course. Don't focus on getting women. Allow that
to be a natural» by-product of your daily life. Go out and have fun, and meet
women in the process. (10)
- Be sexy. Believe you're sexy, become sexy in a way that fits you. (11)
- Eye contact is important.. but don't stare.
- Be flexible. Don't wait for the perfect woman to come along before you
connect with someone. You can have a lot of fun along the way until she does
come along.
- Learn to be quick on your feet. Wit and flexibility will get you a lot of
mileage. (12)
- Stay away from obvious sexual references. Innuendo, double entendres are
better, but subtle ones.
- Always be the gentleman, smooth, polite, respectful. At the same time,
don't put up with bullshit. Be strong without being angry.
- It's perfectly OK not to have sex right away. (13) Create strong trust
first, great rapport, and lead into the physical smoothly and respectfully.
- Once you get her hooked, tease her massively all the way to bed.
- Don't be obsessed with maintaining power and control over the situation.
Go with what's there, and be intelligent.
- Love women. (14)

Notes relating to the above:
(1) If you can fake sincerity, you've got it made...

(2) Sincerity coupled with confidence, that is. If you're sincere with her
about being fucked up and insecure, that won't get you too far. Sincerity
without confidence is a turn off.

(3) If you happened to be one of those, do whatever it takes to get over it.
Also, think of yourself as a MAN, not just a "person". That'll free you to
do what MEN do. Ask yourself, "Am I being a pussy here? Am I being a wimp?"
If the answer is 'yes', don't do it!

(4) Being yourself means making some adjustments in your manner to be more
attractive to women without being phony about it. Never sacrifice your
personal integrity just to get them.

In other words, if just being yourself means hiding in a corner, forget it.
You won't meet many women in that corner. It means adapting yourself to what
will make you attractive without being phony. It may mean coming out of a
shell or developing a witty sense of humor or something like that, depending
on your personal style and what's needed for you to improve. You make that
change as much a part of you as anything else and that becomes "being

(5) This includes two general things:
One is understanding women in general, women's dynamics, etc.
The second is knowing how to read the particular woman you're with.

-->You learn about women in general by talking to many women and noticing
what they're really telling you, notice patterns in how they think, what
they're attracted to, etc. etc. (The more women you'll be with, the more
you'll learn about them first hand); reading women's mags, books, chick
flicks, etc. by women, for women, about women; studying mating roles from an
evolutionary perspective and learning about the psychology of people; lots
of other ways.

-->You learn about the particular woman you're dealing with by observing
her, talking to her, casually, small talk, flirtatious talk, deep talk,
anything that gets her to reveal something about her personality, her likes
and dislikes. Ross' "Value elicitation" is great, and there are many other
methods like asking her provocative questions.  Know how to read her also
requires you to notice her responses. So if for instance you want to see if
she's ready to get physical, you touch her and notice her response. If she's
ready, she will not pull away because she knows what's coming. You do lots
of mini-tests to see where she's mentally at. You notice what makes her
laugh, what thrills her, what she moves away from, how she makes decisions,

Also, pay attention to what's going on in the situation and how that relates
to and influences her.

(6) Rapport can't be overstated, it's one of the essentials of seduction.
Rapport comes from finding commonalities, really listening and showing a
sincere interest. If you have to "create" rapport using NLP Technique
#265759, you're on the wrong track.

(7) Women usually don't find a big talker sexy, even though they themselves
love talking.

(8) Women, like all people, like when someone pays them sincere attention,
but they don't like when he hangs on every word. Most people talk to
themselves, hear only themselves. If you learn how to really listen, you'll
score very high on women's lists. Sometimes just giving them the necessary
attention can get you a long way.

(9) This is somewhat anathema to Speed Seduction», where the "success" is
measured by how fast you've "closed" (a misogynistic terms) and
the number of "HB's" (yet another misogynistic term) you've "banged" (more
misygonism), and if at first you don't suckseed, you NEXT her. In my
opinion, Ross doesn't
teach enough about persistence, but it's very important.

(10) Directing your focus on getting women can be part of a poverty
mentality; a focused pursuit presupposes a lack. Instead, make meeting women
part of your normal life 1. Make your normal life much more attractive to
women, and 2. Place yourself in situations where you'll naturally meet them.

(11) Don't ask me to define sexy; that's not sexy.

(12) I don't know if it can be taught.. it's something you develop with
experience. This means, for instance, learning how to get out of an awkward
spot, with some humorous remark -- not a joke -- a cute, clever remark. Go
to comedy clubs and see how the comedians put down some folks in the crowd.
Believe in the power of your mouth. Etc. Etc.

(13) Another anathema to prevailing theory in the SS community, where if
you don't "close" right away it's HER fault, it's HER block and
limitation that she can't overcome (i.e., you're always right and perfect..
Ross usually believes that it's always her limitation) and NEXT!

(14) When you really love women, you'll find women who really love men, and
if you just happened to be there...

>You can usually distinguish these guys by their use of extremes like "never
say "yes" to a woman" or "a woman will always test you".
> It's almost as if their entire strategy is re-active and re-sponsive,
relying on waiting in anticipation for a woman's "game" and then
automatically doing the opposite of what she wants.

This is not a fair criticism of Sisonpyh. He of course doesn't mean "never".
He says so himself. If you read his book, you'd see that his strategy is NOT
reactive and responsive. It just has to do with an understanding of women's
dynamics and how to playfully flip that around.

Sure, to a degree you need to react, but to say that it ends with that is
obviously incorrect. You're not looking at the overall picture.

What he says is this:
1. Women tend to ask very consistent questions (what do you do, etc.).
That's a fact. Can we agree on that?

Now, there's a RATIONALE behind those questions. These are NOT random
questions. They're geared towards finding out specific information about
you, so she can asses you.

It's true that she might be doing this on auto-pilot, but consciously or
not, those questions are geared towards finding out specific information.
She wants to know how to read you, how to place you in her mental map.

Can we agree on that too?

"Testing" might not be the correct word. It's usually not really a test per
se. Occasionally women consciously test you, but those situations are
relatively few. It's more of a way of her to gather information about you.

Once you understand that, you then can judge which information you want to
release and which to withhold. You volunteer only the information you want.

It's a judgment-call, based on how you want to come across, how you want to
frame the interaction, etc.

Does that make sense?

Also, by not giving her a straight answer, joking, playing with her, etc.
etc. you're showing that (a) you're not intimidated by her (b) that you're a
different creature from most guys, (c) you can take control and NOT
automatically, sheepishly, respond to her, and (d) you get her laughing!!
Yes, you CAN overdo it and come off as an asshole, but for that we need to
bear in mind the second point, which is..

2. Don't overlook Sisonpyh's simple test. The test is "Is she laughing and
having fun?" If she IS, then the "don't give her a straight answer" rule is
good and adds to the fun. If she's NOT laughing and having fun, then that
rule is shitty and can break rapport. So "never" doesn't really mean never.
Of course. Let's not pick on someone's words. Let's see the
forest and the trees.

Also, it depends on the woman, how you frame the interaction, etc. Sometimes
you DO want to give her a straight answer. For instance, if your seduction
is more 'serious' than it is 'fun' (deep, long conversations about the
meaning of life...), turning yourself into a CHARACTER just doesn't fit.
Sometimes you want her to know what you sincerely believe in, sincerely
feel, etc. Don't be flippant or fickle. Tantalizing -- yes, unstable -- no.

In many other situations though, where the girl just wants to have fun, I
find that giving her a straight answer to conventional question is not
useful. Sometimes I'll answer in a way that'll get her laughing and I'll
become a bit more elusive for her, keeping up the intrigue by being
unconventional. Other times I might answer them quickly, to get them out of
the way, and then move on to where I want things to go. I don't want to
dwell on what I do or how many sisters I have, unless I want her to see me
as a potential LT relationship/provider.

Here's an example of what I mean that you need to cater your approach to the
woman. Several nights ago I "sarged" two woman at the same time. I was at
party, sitting on the couch. On my right is a 20-something pretty
ex-stripper/model/actress-wannabie/Yale graduate, and on my left a cute 34
y.o. Norwegian girl. I was switching back and forth between the two,
switching my approach as I did that. The Norwegian girl was very intelligent
and mature and we had a really great "seductive" conversation. The
ex-stripper was rather dumb and superficial, or at least came off like that,
and was talking to me like she used to talk to her former clients.
Recognizing that, I talked to each of them very differently.

Both of them started by asking me a series of typical questions. And I
STARTED with the same approach to both. When I realized that the approach
works only with one and not the other, I CHANGED my approach completely.

I started giving the Norwegian the run-around about what I do, not giving
her a straight answer. At first she laughed a lot, and was enjoying herself.
But at some point I went overboard with that, and she remarked, "Are you not
happy with what you do?" (i.e., why am I being so evasive? what am I

I realized I had gone too far with that and immediately shifted approach. We
ended up having a terrific "sarge". (I won't get into details). With that
kind of woman it's silly to say "never give her a straight answer" since
that BREAKS rapport. It fails Sisonpyh's test: she's no longer laughing from
it. I stopped when she stopped laughing from it. I didn't stop completely,
though, and I kept it up with regards to other questions and things she
brought up.. all in good, clever fun.

The ex-stripper, however, sat there well over 1/2 an hour trying to figure
out where I'm from, and the more I resisted her, cracking lots of jokes,
teasing her, insulting her intelligence (she thought that Poland is in the
Middle East, for instance.. how can I pass over that?) ---- the more she
laughed and the more got curious and into me. She kept on saying, "oh, now
you REALLY got me curious about you.." blahblah. I finally ended up telling
her where I'm from, but that's because I just didn't feel like keeping up
the game. The point is that with this immature, narcissist gal, Sisonpyh's
approach worked very well. I could have easily kept it up, teasing her until
the bed, had I not been much more interested in the Norwegian.

As an aside, the Norwegian overheard the entire conversation with the
ex-stripper, and I used that as fodder for sarging her! By comparing and
analyzing the ex-stripper's behavior to Ms. Norway, Ms. Norway and I got
into a fantastic conversation about men and women, what they truly want vs.
what they think they want, etc. etc. etc. It's fun to team one against the
other, and see how view each other's behavior.... I learned a lot that

I once posted on the SS list something along the lines of what Sisonpyh
advocates. A bit different with differences that make all the difference.

Anyway, some time later there was a NYC meeting with some of the "top" SS
"brothers". At some point I had asked the bro's for their opinion about my
post, and I got mixed opinions. Many took the opposite view, of course.

Several hours later, I raised a question to the group. My question was
something like "What do you do with women so that they don't frame your
time with you as a "relationship"? What do you do to frame yourself
differently from other guys?"

What surprised me was that the answers that I got and their methods were
methods I outlined in my post! EXACTLY!! The same guys who initially knocked
my post, told me that they do PRECISELY what I advocated! When I pointed
that out to them, they were speechless!

E.g., one of the guys who knocked my "advice" told me that when a girl asks
him what do you, he tells her in a Mafioso-like tone, "I take care of
things.." He does that because he wants to come off as a Bad Boy, as a
mystery. He tells her, "If they throw me in once more, this time it'll be for

He's not giving her a straight answer!

In one shape or another, EVERYONE in that group followed my rule of
"changing either the request or the timing". And then they bitched about
this rule!

What I'm saying is, Let's be honest about what we really do. Don't tell me
that my rule is so horrible when you yourself use it all the time.
>"BORE-FRIENDS" and the reality of most real-hate-shun-ships.
>That is, MOST relationships are such that the woman, ON SOME LEVEL, feels
she is "settling".  This is a great pace for a big question most women ask
at some point in their relationships with men. "Am I settling?"

I believe this is VERY TRUE.

My only question is, is this beyond finding a question that will
cause her to doubt herself, and how do you go out there and REALLY fulfill
her true needs.

It would seem to me that we need to learn how to replace what we're
destroying. What
we replace should be better than what we destroy. It's easy to destroy,
it's much harder to build.

Are we TRULY willing to fulfill her deepest needs? If yes, great. Let us then
use "boyfriend destroyers" and become her boyfriend. If not, I suggest
we should not be doing this to women. Don't destroy a relationship, even
if it's not ideal, just to get some sex.

I assume that people have used these "boyfriend destroyers" on many women.
this caused them to doubt their relationships and they ended up in your sack.
But from what we know, you haven't become their boyfriend. You
haven't supplied them with the level of commitment they might have had from
other men. Are you willing to honestly tell us that you fulfilled their
deepest needs? You might have created an intense experience MOMENTARILY, but
you haven't supplied her with LT fulfillment.. or have you?

Essentially, if those words are not backed up by deeds, they're empty and I
suggest not using them. If you're not really ready to provide her with a
better deal, don't ruin what she currently has. Even when what she's got is
not perfection.
>1. Stay calm and be prepared for these responses. They are AUTO-PILOT and
usually not even thought through by the woman.

Sisonpyh is talking about the typical questions women ask. Whether they are
done on auto-pilot or not is not the point. The point is that consciously or
unconsciously those questions serve a very particular purpose, and once you
understand what the purpose is, it's very easy to deal with it and move the
seduction into the direction that you want it to go.
>Rigid responses are not to be feared...they are actually great advantages
to those who know how to  spot them and turn them.
>2. Ask yourself, if you don't have a ready response, "What is this person
REALLY telling me about their behavior, their situation, the way they move
through the world that actually represents a LOSS or a NEGATIVE or PAIN or
a LIMITATION for them?"
>3. How can I simply and elegantly POINT THAT OUT in a way that demonstrates
I understand their world?

All very good guidelines... within the context of actually being the kind of
man who can and is willing to back up his words with his deeds. Otherwise
it's hollow. Remember that actions speak louder than words.

My Comment:  I don't think most people, especially women, know what they
really want.  Some may truly want a momentarily, highly memorable
passionate experience but would not be honest enough to really say so or
even admit it to themselves.  I think you should absolutely not limit
yourself to doing what she wants you to do. I am not saying I do this all
the time even sometimes when I know I should listen to my own advice, but I
believe that you have to do what you want to do and not get bogged down in
what the other person wants as long as you don't do anything unethical or
illegal.  If you are able to make yourself a tempting tasty treat and she
loses herself in the moment of excitement, she's an adult (I assume you are
only going after women over the age of 18, at least) and is responsible for
her own actions.  If she can be lured into your bed by a well executed
seduction, that was her decision.  Your decision has to be to do what is
best for you within the confines of your own morality.


It seems that bishop has taken the money and ran....
I e-mailed him about the book I had paid for and I got a failure notice...
Have you or any off the other people on your list heard whether he is still

My Comment: I tried to get on his website and it also failed so I don't know what to suggest.  Anyone out there
has any thoughts, please let me know.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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