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"What DIDN”T you say your name WASN’T?"

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What DIDN”T you say your name WASN’T?
8/2/01 2:23:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time


"Mo akra"  would like to hear from guys in
Ottawa interested in Sarging.


>I think it is important not to forget a single
>intangible that also can help many of us pick up
>women.  Sex Appeal.  I have sifted through many
>discussions about guys that are unkempt, bad body
>odour, not attractive in the conventional sense and
>yet they still managed to pick up women.  I believe one of
>the major reasons for this is their attitude/sex
>appeal and the way it is perceived by others.  I have
>a friend that is prematurely bald and yet he
>continues to pick up young gorgeous women.  And what
>they always say to me is 'Wow, he is just sexy!'.  I
>am happy to say that I also have had a number of women
>say I am sexy.  Now has this been built into my
>conversation framework?  It is based on my looks?  On
>my attitude?  Is it something that anyone can develop?
>I am not really sure.  I am interested in what others
>think about the chemistry and development of 'being
>sexy' and sex appeal.

My comments is that it's an all encompassing package which
starts off with your sense of esteem and self worth. If a
balding guy is able to pick up women he therefore feels
good about himself and does not allow his baldness to come
between him and the women that he tries to get. Looking good
tends to increase one's sense of self worth and esteem and
make one more confident which women like to see. I think sex
appeal is more about attitude rather than looks but if looks
help you feel better then all the power to you.


Here is the error - thinking initially that she will not be interested
and having to work to get her interest. If you go into a situation
where you think she is not interested you will act this way and turn
her off no matter what technique you use.

I believe it's preferred to indicate your interest in woman right away to
see how she feels. If she in not interested no matter what you do (and I've
been there before) you will not succeed. I have spoken to many guys and they
claim to start off well, but hold back only to crash and burn. The best just
go for it right away because they either are interested or they are not; there
is no sense in wasting time.

NightLight9's response
Looks matter except when you make them not.  OK, here's the scenario - you
and Brad Pitt's twin brother walk into a bar (let's assume Brad's twin has
bathed recently and is otherwise as hygienically acceptable as you are).  The
Aliens land, and tell the 10 women in there that don't know either you or
Brad's bro "you must sleep with one of these two guys tonight or you will
die.  Choose one."  Everyone knows that 9-10 out 10 of these women are going
for BB (one of the women may be intimidated or hate handsome men, and yes
that really happens).  This says two things 2) If you don't make a women
excited simply by your appearance (and this means more than just looks), you
better have a backup plan. 1) If you are attractive enough to get a woman
in bed, you should master the art of not fucking up.  Note in 1) I said
attractive, because lots of women sleep with men who are below their
"appearance standards" and some even marry them.
If the woman you approach that night happens to be on the prowl only for
the best looking guy she can bang or even just talk to (and, yes, this really
happens), you had better be that guy or move on.  However, there is probably
someone in the bar looking to meet the most attractive guy she can find, and
that could be you.  SS, Mystery method», the methods I share, etc. are about
raising the odds that it is you.  People who are able to get high close
ratios are either 1) naturally extremely attractive, or 2) masters of picking
which women are going to receptive to being approached by them.  There was a
time in my life where I was getting a 90% close ratio, because I was only
approaching women who I could tell would be receptive.  That resulted in me
feeling like a stud, but being limited to only those women who already
thought I was cute.  I did two things, one I decided I would approach women
even if they didn't appear interested in me and find ways to change that,
and two I decided to do the most I could to increase the women who were
interested in me.  Wear a cool shirt, be the life of the party, learn
language patterns, bring pivots out, smell good, ride a motorcycle and be a
ladies man.  Also, know what state you need to be in to be effective.  I
have to be excited, cocky, daring and happy to get beyond the chicks who are
just attracted to me for some unknown reason right of the bat.  I know that
this and lots of other "rules" are different for other people.  Looks are
part of the reason for it, but be certain that it's not the only one.  There
are lots of parts of us that have huge impact on why what we say or do is
interpreted, looks is just one that is often quantified, because it's easy
and powerful.

One last thought on looks.  There are things that you can do immediately that
will improve your odds.  Wear clothes that convey personality.  That
personality could be "I don't give a f-ck about what you think of my
clothes" by wearing a ratty baseball hat and jeans (in Seattle that can be a
very powerful tool).  I can't express enough the power of the right hair
cut.  Your hair conveys so much about your personality.  Get rid of the
computer nerd/politician part to the side unless you think that's your
persona.  Spike it, or grow it long or grease it back, but make the most of

NightLight9 comments on SilentK's comments:
"I have been studying SS for about the past 3 years, and not
failing nearly enough.  I have realized that I resist even attempting
because this is now a hugely stressful/negative area for me.  At this time I
am focusing on one single objective: "Just have fun/find my enthusiasm."
I realize I have been forcing myself a lot, and have lost that boyish
enthusiasm. I know there are awesome PUA's/SS guys on here, but I really
don't care about the master's techniques right now.  Right now, all I want
is to have fun.  THEN, I plan to work on how to have fun AND be smooth,
challenging, etc.  I care WAY too much about the result, and I want to get
back to the feeling of being a kid on the playground."

NightLight9's response:
Lately I've been having a lot of luck with the mantra "I don't pick up
chicks" when I'm out sarging.  One of the girls I'm dating always says
"Think about it." to me.  That's very powerful.


(Commenting on the separate post from Tristan):
"So in closing, I want to point out that being a ball buster is something
that Ross himself does, and as far as SS in Sis's approach, well, Sis in my
opinion, when you talk to a woman about the joys of cuddling vs. sex, that
is very close to
SS. So I want to thank both Sis and Ross. Your brilliant work has
done some fantastic things for me. I'll be forever grateful!"

Thank you. As I have pointed out, I find merit in some of Sis's ideas. It
was his mischaracterising NLP as being basically about and only good for
therapy, and thus slapping at the foundation of my work, that I have found
troubling, along with some of the more extreme "always" and "never" type
posts of his.  And what seemed to me to be thinly veiled swipes at my work
that bothered me.

(Commenting on Mike P.)
"I had a question for Ross. I know that modeling is at the heart of NLP
and that SS is really NLP used for seduction. I know that the founders
of NLP modeled Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir and Fritz Perls. What I
was curious to know what who did Ross model when he created SS?"

Well, alot of it was taking principles of NLP and Ericksonian hypnosis and
going out into the field to see what worked for seduction. So really, much
of what I did was finding principles based on my own
experimenting!  Initially, looking at the processes I wanted women to
engage in with me and then finding ways to artfully describe them, among
other things.

(Commenting on: "(9) This is somewhat anathema to Speed Seduction», where
the "success" is
measured by how fast you've "closed" (a misogynistic terms) and
the number of "HB's" (yet another misogynistic term) you've "banged" (more
misygonism), and if at first you don't suckseed, you NEXT her. In my
opinion, Ross doesn't
teach enough about persistence, but it's very important."):

Oh please.  I reach for my gun when I hear PC labels like
"misogynistic".  To a hard-core feminists, PENSISES are "misogynistic".

I refuse to idolize or idealize women. HB stands for "hot babe" which is no
more inherently anti-female than "hot guy" is anti-male.

Frankly, I don't teach persistence because too many guys who get my
material have already persisted for YEARS in doing the wrong thing and have
NO discrimination when it comes to cutting bait and moving on.

Personally, I have no problem being persistent with a good prospect who
simply needs more time and room to make the thoughts her own, or who is
dealing with a life situation that needs to get handled.  That isn't the
same as attempting to reach someone who is cynical, burned-out on men,
asexual, etc.

(Commenting on "(13) Another anathema to prevailing theory in the SS
community, where if
you don't "close" right away it's HER fault, it's HER block and
limitation that she can't overcome (i.e., you're always right and perfect..
Ross usually believes that it's always her limitation) and NEXT!"):
No, I advocate "nexting" when the person is being flakey, disrespectful,
etc. and you can't re-establish a strong frame.

(Commenting on: "Now, there's a RATIONALE behind those questions. These are
NOT random
questions. They're geared towards finding out specific information about
you, so she can asses you."):

I don't agree; I think it's part of being polite and curious.

(Commenting on: "Let's not pick on someone's words. Let's see the
forest and the trees."):

Uh...what do you call pointing out the "misogynistic" terms in SS?

(Commenting on: "...insulting her intelligence (she thought that Poland is
in the
Middle East, for instance.. how can I pass over that?)"):
You are making my point; women who strongly respond to this are usually
just that stupid and JUST that young.

My point is that Sis' approach is strongly geared to the "club chick". The
Hollywood hottie who views the world thru the lenses of social-approval,
what's "hippest" what's "coolest" who is the most popular person at the
prom, etc.

(Commenting on: "The point is that with this immature, narcissist gal,
Sisonpyh's approach worked very well."):

Commenting on: "E.g., one of the guys who knocked my "advice" told me that
when a girl asks
him what do you, he tells her in a Mafioso-like tone, "I take care of
things.." He does that because he wants to come off as a Bad Boy, as a
mystery. He tells her, "If they throw me in once more, this time it'll be for

No, he does that because he drives a limo and doesn't want women to know
he's got that kind of job. I know this Brother and he's a first-rate
sarger, but you have his motivations confused!

(Commenting on Berty: "It seems that bishop has taken the money and ran....
I e-mailed him about the book I had paid for and I got a failure notice...
Have you or any off the other people on your list heard whether he is still

My Comment I tried to get on his website and it also failed so I don't know what to suggest.  Anyone out there
has any thoughts, please let me know."):

I will keep the list posted on the misadventures of Senior Scum, Mike
Emery, aka the ex-Bishop...I need to contact the District Attorney handling
his burglary/stalking trial...


The question on Bishop's book.   I received my book over the
Internet.   He also sent a bonus to me for my patience in waiting for
him. I tried to send him a follow-up email the other night, and it came back
undeliverable.  I don't know about the second volume of Bishop's
Journal, but I did get Unlimited Lover and the bonus book. ( As well as
my original purchase from him on Bishop' Journal.)
He wrote that he initially had delivery problems from the printer, and
then he tried to mail them on his own, and discovered printing problems.
At that time he offered to send them Internet, which I accepted.  The
Unlimited Lover was as good as the original Bishop's Journal.
As to what is up now, I have no idea.


Dwayne (
I was observing a woman telling her friend (about a guy who was like an AFC
just doting on her -- right in front of the dope's face, yet) "He's sweet,
but he's not my type."

So, I'm thinking... next time a woman tries to lay that "not my type" bs on
me, I'll need a kewl pattern.  So, here is a rough draft of what I came up

"Wow... congratulations!"

"How amazed you should be that you finally came to realize the truth!"

"If you were to... think about all the times your heart was broken... by
guys who were (point away or anchor) YOUR TYPE, right?"

"Remember that last guy who dumped you and how long you suffered because
you gave yourself to him and he only wanted to use you?  He was YOUR TYPE,
wasn't he?"

"You chase after (anchor or point away) THOSE GUYS who are YOUR TYPE,
then  (point away or anchor) you get used and abused, then you're crying
because you wanted something that  (point away or anchor) you didn't get
because he was YOUR TYPE."

"Remember on Seinfeld when George Costanza decided to (self point) DO the
opposite... and he got that great job and a beautiful fiancee and inherited
all that money... and how everything turned around for him as he
instantaneously came to realize he just need to change course?"

"Well, how surprised would you be to find that that BIG hapPENIS you've
always wanted to feel deep inside is (self point) right in front of you?"

So, will you keep going after guys who are  (point away or anchor) YOUR
TYPE and continue to set yourself up for heartache and pain, or am I
correct that you are intelligent enough to (self point) find the hapPENIS
and joy you long to feel inside?"

That's a rough draft... would appreciate input from the crew...


I just spent the weekend in SanFran, and had some very interesting
experiences/challenges over there.  First of all, I want to point out that
Montreal women are WAY better, both in terms of looks and amounts.


The very first place my good-looking, rich, yet AFC buddy brought me to was
this 'gothic' type of bar, because he wanted me to experience first-hand
the weirdos and freaks of San Francisco.  This is a place where everyone is
unique, and they obviously pride themselves on being different.  There we
saw guys in dresses, and every kind of weirdo you can imagine.  Lots of
body piercing.  A human-being with lots of holes and metal going through
their skin does not make me think, 'Now there's a guy who really values
himself and his body!'

There were two dance floors, one in the front, one in the back.  We order
some beers and go in the back, sit down, and like a kid in the zoo for the
first time, I sat in complete AWE of these wonderful creatures.  That's
when I spotted 'The spiritual dancer from heaven'.
At first glance, she was only a 7, but the more I watched her graceful
movements on the dance floor, she had a spiritual aura unlike any girl I've
ever seen.  She really was breathtaking, and she had a perfectly sculpted
dancer's body.  She danced alone, and the way she danced, in trance, in her
own world, wildly thrashing around, yet with such grace and precision.  I
could have watched her all night long.  Remember that scene in American
Beauty when Kevin Spacey is watching that sweet young thing performing her
little number in the high school gym...

Realizing I'm completely lost in trance, I begin to snap myself out of it
and next thing I know she sits on the bench right next to me!  Right away I
look at her with the eyes of a man who just found his soulmate.  I stare
deeply into her eyes and manage to say ''re a great dancer!'

She says thank you and stands up, totally unaffected by me, and starts
talking to this guy who was obviously her friend and nothing else.  This is
when my internal dialogue starts going, "OOPS! You fucked up! 'You're a
great dancer'...gimme a break!!")

So my AFC and I get up and go sit next to the other dance floor in the
front of the bar.  We start talking about what a stupid comment I said, and
how I choked, and I look up and there she is, dancing away, the spiritual
dancer, right in front of me!  I wait for the song to end and go over to
try one more thing with her

'Excuse know how I said you were a great dancer?'
'Well, I take it back.  You're not a great dancer...(you should have seen
her face!)...What you a shining example...of what it be
ABSOLUTELY...BREATHTAKING'  (On BREATHTAKING, I gently grab her hand in my
right hand and start rubbing the top of her soft hand with my other hand,
all the while breathing with her and staring DEEPLY in her eyes)

She was in a deep, speechless trance, as I continued to gaze into her eyes
and said

'...And it's SO meet someone...with such an incredible
energy...and a gentle passion...(5 second pause) name is KISS ME NOW'
(She kissed me for about 3 and a half minutes straight, passionately, yet
soft and gently, and we caressed each others bodies slowly, yet deliberately)

By the way, if you're a beautiful woman reading this is turning you on,
drop me an email along with your jpeg...

So anyway, after the kiss, her borefriend grabs her arm and whispers
something in her ear.  She gives me the I'll be back, don't you go
anywhere' look and they disappear into the crowd.  I look over at my AFC
buddy, and he's looking at me like a black kid who just met Michael
Jordan.  He wants to know, word for word, what I said, so I tell him to go
get me a beer first, then we'll talk.  Off he goes, and I sit back down on
the bench against the wall, light a smoke, and there's at least a dozen
people, men, women, and crossdressers, checking me out.  I turn to my
immediate left, and there's this tall, young, beautiful girl with perfect
lips, blue eyes, and short blonde curly hair with purple streaks (let's not
forget where we are!) and she says 'HI!' with a shy look on her perfect
little face.  At this point, I feel like Don Juan on ecstasy, and instead
of saying "Hi"...I just give a curious stare, like a child, for about 5
seconds and she blushes and smiles and looks down.  So I say (MY famous
line, trademark)

'What DIDN''T you say your name WASN'T?' (As I extend my hand)

(This can actually make a woman have a hard time remembering her name!)

(This is where I gently hold her hand and put mine on top of hers,
indicating that it should STAY THERE)

''s nice meet a woman who doesn't have looks...(pause for
effect)..and looks alone...(hihi!)..because I can have great taste'


'Because you laugh at what I say (as I gently poke her stomach, and she
giggles), and I DO ENJOY...the company...of someone...who knows how to let
loose...and giggle (poke tummy again) and feel good!

At this point she's giggling so I go:
'Speaking to a person who loves to laugh...and feel good...for no
reason, do you live in San Francisco?' (I ran out of material!!!)

So she says yes and where am I from and I say Montreal.  NEVER say you're
from Canada (more on this later)!  So the conversation goes stale and my
buddy is sitting next to me so I say it was nice to meet her and face my
buddy, deliberately left her hanging there (I'm experimenting with various
jerk, pull-away stuff, and besides, I wanted to spend some time with the
spiritual dancer, not to mention my AFC buddy.  Later on she did come back
for more, so it worked).

Wanting to share the wealth, I ask my buddy if he's interested in anyone
and he points to this gorgeous, normal looking hottie, wearing tight-ass
jeans, standing at the bar with three guys, perhaps hitting on her, hard to
They weren't doing any deep-trance work, that's for sure.  So I tell my
buddy to go say hello and he freezes.  So I tell him let's go stand at the
bar next to her, order a drink, and see what happens.  Off we go.

I tried to get him to say something, giving him little nudges, saying
'Cmon, let's go' and stuff, but he couldn't handle it.  She turns around to
see who's next to her and I get eye contact, hold out my Canadian
cigarettes and go, 'Ever try one of these?' (Sorry guys, I'm no Don Juan!)
She says no, I say they're Canadian cigarettes and would she like to try
one.  She says yes, I light it, and I remain friendly and distant because I
want to turn her on to my buddy.  I introduce myself, and then I introduce
my friend.  He says "Hi" and doesn't even shake her hand, just nods his
head.  I go, 'Scott lives in San Francisco', etc, trying to get them to
talk, but my buddy is so AFC, he doesn't get girls by being suave, he gets
them with looks and money.  If they're not into his looks and money, and
don't pursue him, he can't get them.

I spent the rest of the night trying to get HIM laid, and he can't even say
hello, so I resolved that the next day I would focus on me, and he can have
my leftovers.

So the next morning we head out for the beach, and I know why my buddy
wanted to go to the beach: 'cause he has a good body and I don't!

We're walking along the beach and we spot 2 hotties and some guy they're
with, and there wasn't much else so we sat down and watched them throw the
Frisbee around.  One of them was a ten, the other was a 9.5.  They were
GORGEOUS, and we didn't mind watching them run around in their bikinis,
even if we weren't gonna sarge them ('cause my friend is a chump).
Ten minutes later, the 10 comes over and asks my buddy if we want to play
some Frisbee!

I look around, and the guy they WERE with is long gone.  My buddy ACTUALLY
looks at her, and says "NO, THANK YOU!!!"  She says, 'Well, you guys look
bored...'  And he very calmly says, 'We're just relaxing'.  She says
'OK...' and walks off.

Now my buddy looks at me with disgust and says, 'Steph, what the hell is
wrong with me????'  He couldn't believe how he fucked up so badly, so I
quickly reframed him (He was REALLY upset) and I said
'You..are..a..GOD!!!!'  That shocked and puzzled him so I said,'THINK about
it!  You just rejected the best looking Goddess on this whole beach!  That
makes YOU..a God!'  And I bowed before him.  Enough said. just a peasant, a lonely beggar, who needs to learn how to play
Frisbee!  So I get up, and go over to play Frisbee with the girls.  I'm not
gonna get into detail about this but I do wanna mention something VERY
important here about sarging in California

Each and every time I mentioned that I'm from Montreal, they lost
interest.  I mean, shoulders literally slumping, looking at me with total
disinterest, (yawn).  At first, I didn't understand why, but it makes
sense.  These girls live in one of the most exciting, beautiful places in
the world, with Hollywood and movie stars, movers and shakers.  Over there,
Canadians are viewed, it seems, as boring and passionless people.  I mean,
we're just as bad when we say Americans are dumb and fat, etc.  So if you
want more of a challenge sarging California girls, tell 'em you're
Canadian.  If you're smart, you tell em you're from San Francisco, or tell
them you live nowhere in particular, you just travel the Earth alone.  That
will peak their interest.

Stephane (who has been reading the archives of all the past emails):
I've been reading all of your emails and I'm noticing a theme that these
guys seem to really be into jerk behavior, such as ignoring, take-aways,
nexting, etc.  This seems to be one of the primary things discussed, and
not that I'm against these things (because I use them too), but there seems
to be a dis-ease that alot of guys are expecting the worse.  Treat a woman
as you want her to treat you is my philosophy.  When I approach a woman, I
always do it with warmth and empathy, and they almost always respond in
kind.  True, you have to call her on her bullshit and not back down, but
alot of guys seem to be looking for problems, thus creating them.
What I do is I presuppose she is whatever I want her to be, I do it with my
language and everything.  It works.

Stephane commenting on what he tells his girlfriends about weekends and
managing multiple women:
I just let them know way in advance that I like to go out with my friends
on the weekend.

(When a girl starts to demonstrate jealous, possessive behavior, I let her
go.  I used to try to reason with them, but it doesn't work.  I've tried
every reframe I can think of, and I'm really good with Sleight of
Mouth.  It'll work for a while, then they just go back to making internal
movies of me doing nasty and enjoyable things behind their backs.  And the
fact that I only see my girlfriends once a week turns those submodalities
way up!)

Either that, or I'll tell the girl, in the beginning, how I had "This crazy
girlfriend" and launch into whatever I want this girl to avoid, such as not
understanding the need to go out with friends, have other friends who are
girls. Example:

"Once I had this CRAZY girlfriend who actually thought that it was WRONG
for me to look at another girl!!  Isn't that nuts?  On the other hand, I
dated this other girl who was SMART.  Instead of getting all worked up and
throwing a fit every time a cute girl walks by, she did it in REVERSE.  She
would say, "LOOK AT HER! Isn't she gorgeous!"  Now, at first, I was shocked
and a little uncomfortable, but then I realized this is how ALL couples
should be.  Instead of going into stress every time someone attractive is
nearby, why not enjoy it instead?  So, what I started to do was play along
with her.  When I saw an attractive man, I pointed him out.  That caused an
AMAZING THING to happen, because it actually brought us closer together,
know what I mean?"

I don't have much on MWM (multiple women management), other than to use
these types of conversations to run the types of presuppositions I want her
to have.  Presuppositions are MY area of expertise, and one of the first
NLP patterns that I thoroughly mastered.  I built a machine, a
presupposition scanner in my head when I was younger, and I used to scan
books and conversations for presuppositions.  I have strange hobbies : )


I was wondering if there is anyone out there who is experienced at
nonverbal (read mostly physical) techniques to get a woman aroused and
turned on (I'm talking more about when you first approach a girl rather than
later at your place or in the bedroom).  You must know that I sarge primarily
in clubs and bars, and my question is directed more in terms of those kinds
of settings.  Specifically, I have been observing how guys approach and
interact with girls at bars and clubs, and I've noticed that some successful
ones incorporate lots of physical contact (such as putting his arm around her
waist, placing his hand on her back, rubbing her back, etc.) pretty early on
in the approach.  Lots of touching on the part of the guy seems to convey
confidence and aggression, and the girls seem to enjoy this.  This is one
component that is usually lacking in my sarges, and I think it might be
hurting my game.  I invite thoughts and suggestions from other brothers on
this topic.  Also, if anyone can recommend any books or resources on this
topic (especially for bar/club settings), please let me know.

Here is another question.  It is unrelated, but also something on my
mind.  I have found in my sarges in clubs and bars that girls (almost always
in groups -- most of the time, I have not talked much with the "obstacles")
will, 5 or 10 minutes into the approach, announce that they are going to get
a drink or are going to the dance floor.  I was wondering if this is a test
that girls do to see if a guy is interested enough in them.  Are they testing
to see if the guy will follow them to the dance floor or the bar?  In my
experience, I have always just ended the sarge there and not followed them or
waited around, but I was wondering if anyone else has had similar
experiences/challenges and how they have dealt with them.


Billy I:
Here's my little lay report from last night I thought
I would share with all of you guys.  Thanks Cliff for
sending me those archives because without them I don't
believe that I would have gotten the results I did.
It's what Mystery said that finally got through to me
and made a lot of sense.

In the past, what I was doing was just approaching
girls to see what would happen.  I had no format
whatsoever to what I was doing.  Now, what Mys said in
an old interview was that you need a format.  An
outline, if you will.  You need a couple of openers,
some stories or routines, a couple of good NEG's, and
you have to know the * and # close routines.  Before,
my mind would get all cluttered with trying to
remember shit and when I approached I would find
myself with nothing cool to say.  I'm telling you
guys, use this simple framework and it just gets
easier and easier!  I can't stress this enough.  All I
did was this before I went out: I remembered 3
openers, two simple stories (bear shit in the woods,
and the funny as hell falling over a mannequin story)
(credit goes to Wakeboarder, I think, for the idea), a
couple of games (which I didn't use that night), 3
NEG's, and I knew how I would close the deal.

So, I find myself approaching this girl.  I just
walked up to her and said, "Hi, I noticed you from
over there and I just had to come over and find out
what you were like."  She told me she loved how I
introduced myself because I did it confidently and
'didn't use a line' on her.  *if she only knew!*
hahaha.  Then I just went into the two stories told in
a humourous manner.  No small talk whatsoever.  And, I
think this is important guys...Don't use the bullshit
"what do you do for a living" lines when you first
meet her, they are fucking boring and they get asked
that shit all the time.  After I told her the stories
and had some laughs with her, I simply said, "Listen,
you seem really cool and I would love to hang out with
you sometime and BE FRIENDS."  That's a great line.
Sisonpyh gets full credit for that one.  His posts to
this newsletter gave me fantastic ideas on how to bust
her balls and be cocky and funny.  So if you read this
Sis, thanks bro!

Anyways, I asked her if she had email.  She says that
she didn't, so I busted her balls saying "Well, do you
have electricity?"  She says, "Give me your phone #".
I'm like, "No, no, no.  I'm not gonna do that.
You're just gonna show it to your friends and have a
laugh and then throw it out."  She said that she
wouldn't do that and that she would call me for sure.
So, I simply said, OK let's trade digits.  So we
traded, and I ejected.  But I knew I had her when she
said, 'Oh!  You can't leave me. You have to come back
and talk to me before you go. Don't leave without
coming to talk to me."

So at the end of the night, I went and talked to her
and her friend.  Invited them to a pool party and went
with them.  Then when her friend wanted to leave, I
just said, 'Well, you should stick around'.  She said
she had to talk it over with her friend.  I said,
sure, I don't care and she ended up staying with me.
Then we left.  I was on my way to drop her off and I
just said, "Y'know, I don't think that I'm done with
you yet.  I'm bringing you to my house."  She had no
objections and I ended up getting the full close.
And, she had the most amazing body ever!  Beautiful.

This is too easy!  I'm just wondering if a lot of you
guys use a format such as Mystery's FMAC?  It works


As you know from one of my previous postings, I almost told this girl
everything of my past.  I have fortunately saved myself from alot of
trouble, and I won't make the same mistake again. Only problem I worry is
that what if someday we do go far, and then it all spills out some how?
When I care for her so much, and she wants me so bad for reasons of purity
and innocence, it scares that (1) I could hurt her (2) I could embarrass
myself.  I think in my case, alot will not come out, unless I become famous,
I know that sounds funny, but as you know alot of the girls I go for are
strippers, etc. and who knows, what could happen.  Only one of my friends
thinks I should tell her the whole truth, to be "Truly" in love, but from
experience and I am also not stupid, I think
"survival instincts" kick in and I know the basic rules.

My Comment:  Let me give you my thoughts, a lot of which I gleaned from
David who you may have read about here before (remember the brunch
Formhandle reported on?).  The less said the better -- remain a man of
mystery.  Don't lie, but as much as possible change the subject and keep
having her talk, including tell you about herself vs. you telling her
things about you.  You will eventually have to tell her some things,
there's no question about it but stay away as much as is humanly possible
from telling her anything that could possibly come back to haunt you.  Tell
her you will never lie to her but that doesn't mean you are going to answer
everything she asks you and you appreciate her respecting your desire not
to just talk about things which you would rather not talk about.  Women are
different from men -- if that was a man you were dealing with it might be a
different story (I have been wondering about that also - we may not be that
much different, only we don't deal with each other in the same way with the
same motivations).  It is not going to help your relationship by telling
her everything -- contrary to what you think.  It will help if she is
constantly intrigued and challenged by you without you having to make an
huge effort to be intriguing and challenging (in other words, it should be
natural for you to be that way).  Stop worrying about what she is thinking
-- let her worry about what you are thinking.  Sisonpyh's advice is right
on - don't give her what she asks for (or at least not the way she asks for
it) because the odds are she'll figure you out and then she'll be bored or
become difficult because she needs to be stimulated and when that happens
you've lost your shine.


Question for Mystery: What is the PHOTO ROUTINE??  Am I correct in assuming
it's simply
presenting photos of yourself with famous people to peak the interests of
strippers?? If so, then what does one do if they are not lucky enough to
have a photo of themselves with someone famous?


This is an ad from a free personals site. I think it is very insightful:
"Too often, men say that women want to be treated like crap. Men seem to
think that women want the bad boy because he is dangerous and because we
can't have him. He won't commit to us, he doesn't have time for us, and
thus we desire him more.

Gentleman, this is bullshit.

Although we WANT the bad boy, we don't want him to be bad to us. We are
attracted to him because of other qualities, and we put up with the way he
treats us to access these qualities. Typically, a bad boy is aggressive. He
is controlling, decisive, and successful in business. He is competitive in
sports. He is a smart, calculating, smooth talker. Sexually, he will grab
us by the hair or throw us on a bed. He is dynamic, with a million
interests/friends and is busy all the time. He plays to win on every level
and lets no one get in his way. In a base, biological sense, a woman sees a
man like this and thinks, Strong man. Head of tribe. He protect me and kill
big animal to eat.

Unfortunately, women have needs beyond biological. We want a long-term,
monogamous relationship (boyfriend, husband, or long-time companion);
someone who won't cheat on us; someone who is sensitive to our moods and
fears; someone who WANTS to spend time with us; someone who calls to say
goodnight. Alas, most often this is not our bad boy as described above but
is instead the nice guy, quiet, poet, artist, gentle/careful lover who
would rather watch Antique Road Show than play sports, and who has so few
interests that he has all the time in the world for us.

I'm falling asleep just thinking about him.

Does a modern-day caveman who can fulfill both the biological and the
emotional/intellectual actually exist? I doubt it, but if you think you can
prove me wrong, then drop me a line. I am 34, extremely attractive, and
prefer men who are equally attractive and FIT (base biological thing again ;-)"

My Comment:  Descartes left off the email address so don't ask...

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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