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One of the best I ever had.
8/4/01 8:56:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time


Here's a thought that has come into my mind that I wanted to throw out to
those reading this.  What do you think of the idea of holding a seminar
here in Montreal next summer based on this email list?  My thoughts are
that an array of the guys who have great ideas that you have read about
here would each get up and talk for 1-3 hours and give some of their best
seduction tips.  How it would be done I am not sure -- my first thought is
to follow the intent of these emails and do it purely for fun and to help
out those who appreciate such help; the cost of attending would be based on
covering the expenses and not on making money.  Imagine a seminar where
Ross, Mystery, GameMaster, Major Mark, Steve Piccus, Mark B., Sisonpyh,
Rick, Craig, Dr. Dennis Neder, Arte from New Sex, Oscar Bruce, Maniac High,
David, NightLight9, Peta, Jobet, David Shade, Nathan, Dan Scorpio, and
numerous others who's names escape me for the moment (but who, you may be
surprised to know, are all currently subscribers to these emails) are not
only in attendance to share their ideas and experience with you, but who
are there just for fun.  The other thing which I try to do here which I
would hope will be reflected there would be that we should keep away from
personalities -- no one learns anything from someone attacking someone
else; let's keep this on a real practical, down to earth level where we
focus on where we can benefit from someone else.  Obviously, not everyone
is going to be able to make it but the idea has hit me and has been growing
stronger, getting brighter and more intoxicating as the days go
by...  Comments????


A big thank you to Oscar Bruce for sending out a plug for these emails to
his email list.  I have probably gotten a good 30-40 new subscribers due to
that and, if you are one of these, let me also hereby welcome you to this
list.  Oscar has been a subscriber here for a couple of years, and some
time ago sent in a really excellent contribution (he actually may have done
more than one, I just remember one in particular).  If anyone wants to see
it, just ask for me to send you the archives (all the old posts) and then
you'll just have to search through the files looking for "Oscar").  Oscar
sells some interesting books he's written based on real life communication,
and you can find out about his WINNING WORDS WINNING WAYS by visiting his
website at


Mystery's Lounge is once again OPEN.  It is staying at
MSN Communities due to the improvements made there
over the past year.  Email [XXREMOVEDXX] if you
have any problems logging in (forgot password, need
another invite, etc.).

If you want access to the Lounge, send an email to the
address above.  We accept only DISCRETE members (we
post pix of trophies and no-gos, along with other
personal info), and it would be beneficial to attach a
self pic and have someone vouch for you for access.


This is Stephane interacting with NamelessGuy on Mindlist
(  NamelessGuy was asking Stephane
about how he handles women with BPD (which stands for Borderline
Personality Disorder, or flaky, head-gaming, immature girls that happen to
be HOT, and know it).  They were mostly discussing a technique called
Prescribing The Symptom, which was one of Milton Erickson's favorite
patterns.  Stephane also suggests how to handle the 'ol 'You're not my
type' Objection, and other pattern interrupts.

NamelessGuy wrote:
> > she will take you on a wild ride of great sex and
> > emotional highs and lows, and that can be a deadly
> > combination!!
> She tried - I was raised Italian-American, with lots
> of telling and fighting and hugging and food and guilt and loving. I'm
> well-prepared.

Hehe, you Italians are really into drama )
> We were never boyfriend/girlfriend. One night, when
> we were together at a bar,
> she started flirting outrageously with an AFC to her
> right. I went into my
> entertaining New Yorker mode and had about a dozen
> people to my left as my
> audience, laughing their asses off. She then tried
> to talk to some of the people
> in my audience (to steal them away?), but I kept my
> foot on the gas. I wanted to
> show her that I could get along without her. She had
> an incredible temper
> tantrum later that night - because her ploy didn't
> succeed and I acted like I
> didn't care what she did. I think she took me
> for an AFC ("nice guy"), and
> found that she mis-read me like a lot of other women
> have...
> Was I prescribing the symptom here, Steph?

No. But I love how you showed her that you can generate an audience too,
with your SOCIAL skills, not your TITS!  You really have to work constantly
at keeping these perfect 10 women in line, which is why I choose not to
deal with them.  Too high maintenance for me!

Let me explain Prescribing the Symptom in depth here by offering you my two
favorite examples.  It is probably the MOST powerful thing I've learned in
10 years of NLP

1- My first official client, came to me because he was, of all things,
addicted to porn and masturbation.
So, to prescribe the symptom, I told him to masturbate MORE!  I explained
(rationalized) that before we treat his addiction, that he needed to 'get
it out of his system, for good'.  Since he masturbated 10-15 times per day,
I told him to double it.  I said do it 30-40 times a day, and call me in a
week. Then, I assured him, he will be ready to give it up for good.

He calls me the next day to say that he can't even get it up!  He went from
sexual compulsion to impotence OVERNIGHT.  This is the power of prescribing
the symptom.  So I told him to come in, and I put him in a trance and told
him that he will remain impotent until he works it out with his wife, and I
told him exactly how he should do that.  Two weeks later, they were to be

2- Milton Erickson talks about a 24 year-old man who couldn't get into the
Army because he wet the bed every night between 4 and 5 am.  Milton simply
had him set the alarm clock for 3 am, stand in his own bed, and PEE
DELIBERATELY all over his clean bed for a week.  The problem disappeared

Now, I don't know why it works but it almost always does.  With my client,
he said it felt like homework and took away the naughty fun.  With Milton's
client, it seems that he learned that he had control.
> Weeks later she called me begging to help her fix
> her messed up life. She claims
> that she didn't know why she did what she did that
> night.

Yeah, you will get them urging you to save them from themselves, so
DON'T.  Tell her that you have enough problems already, and that you charge
250 bucks an hour for therapy.  I'm serious.  These women are looking for
the opportunity to control you, and one way is to get you to feel sorry for
them.  Keep in mind that nobody wants to fuck their therapist or
father.  She wants to fuck someone who is in control, but not
controlling.  When you say no to helping her, she will try to make you look
like an asshole, so hold your ground.  No means NO!  (ain't it weird how we
need to treat 'em like CHILDREN??)
> I have no faith that she would be loyal to anyone,
> but she appears to depend
> upon my friendship.

Totally.  Expect alot of 'but I wasn't myself' bullshit, excuses, and no
personal responsibility.  Bandler talks about the fact that people are
dissociated from their own internal processes.  For alot of people, what
goes on in their head is not looked upon as something they have control
over.  He says that whenever he teaches the pattern for Belief Change,
invariably he gets people that say,'You mean you can just CHANGE a
belief?!?'  That's because for these people, in their model of the world,
they have BELIEFS as being part of the environment.  People need to realize
that in order to have a belief, it's something that they must continue to DO.
> > Try to figure out what are the cues in her environment
> > that trigger her BPD (Bi-Polar Disorder) (or what I call Stupidity).  This
> > could be challenging, but if you know what the
> > trigger(s) is, and the trigger for getting her back,
> > it will definitely help!
> The trigger to getting her back is for me to act
> paternal. I haven't figured out
> what triggers her stupidity. Actually, I call her an
> asshole, because bitch can
> sound like a back-door compliment to a BPD.

Ok, acting paternal may snap her out of it, but find a better way.  Parents
aren't a turn on.  Nobody wants to fuck their mom and dad, no matter what
Freud says!

Yeah, she prides herself on being a bitch, so try calling her an ignorant
(insert swear-word here!), I like that one, especially when delivered in a
calm, matter-of-fact way, with a little smirk on your face.  If you never
lose your cool around her, it will really puzzle her because she is used to
guys getting all emotional on her, and it's one of the many ways she can
measure her worth.  The more you freak out, the more she'll look back on it
later and think,'I really had him by the balls hahahaha!'  Keep your cool
at all times, and try acting indifferent.  That'll fry her circuits.  You
have to always be one step ahead of these cunts.
> > YOU'Excuse me, you seem upset.'
> > HER'Goddamn right!'
> > YOU'Good. Double that feeling! And double it again!
> > AH cmon! You can do better than that!! What the fuck,
> > man?! Lets go!'
> > HER'You're crazy!'
> > YOU'You have NO IDEA, you bitch!'
> > HER(Feeling confused, a little hurt, she will now be
> > focused on calming YOU DOWN!)
> Wow... I like that, especially since it's similar to
> what I've been considering
> doing, which was encouraging her when she acts like
> an asshole.

YES!!!  THAT is prescribing the symptom.  Try this, I learned it from
Bandler (do it in a very calm, like you don't give a shit, way)

You Excuse me. You seem upset..
Her Goddamn right!
You Could you double that feeling and double it again, make the pictures in
your mind bigger, make 'em brighter, now excuse me (as you say excuse me,
grab that picture with your hands, look at it, and tear it shhhhhhht! and
say 'Didn't like that picture, HERE, try this one...CALM!'  (when you say
CALM, go into a state of total calm and bliss, and put your hand right near
her chest).  This pattern is an incredible mind fuck.
> Once when we were late driving to a party, as I
> started getting upset in the car
> she wanted to calm me down, and seemed to ENJOY
> calming me down. Also, she has a
> favorite cousin that's an asshole, but she claims
> "I'm the only one that can
> calm him down", and she seems to enjoy that - it
> makes her feel wanted.

The problem with this is you need to go into stress to get her to respond
to you. And that sucks! Does fuck & chuck mean anything to you?  )  I would
meta-comment on this tendency of hers, which, in NLP language, means to
call her on it.  Make fun of it, tease her about it by pretending to go
into a rage and asking her if it makes her feel wanted.  Prescribe the symptom.
> We seem to be past episodes of "stupidity". Now,
> while she's seeking my approval
> in things, she also claims that, as we've gotten
> closer, that I deserve better
> than her. Self-esteem.

'You deserve better than me'  (because I'm stupid and there's nothing I can
do about it!)  This is a sign, she's trying to tell you that 'you're not my
type'.  And this is where most guys will crash and burn.  But not
you!!  See this as a test, and once you pass it, you're gonna get your
share, and then some!  Try this wickedly evil pattern, preferably on the
phone, because it's kind of long to memorize, and you need to nail her
right between the ideas right away

YOU I'm definitely convinced that I'm not your type.  You know how I know?
HER How?
YOU It's because your TYPE OF GUY can only fit inside of what you already
know.  See, when someone dates someone who is their type, the kind of
person that society, and your friends, and your parents would approve of,
you will never experience TRUE passion.
That's because you'll never be able to experience the kind of mystery and
wonder that comes from dating the kind of guy that you're not used to
dating. Because when you date someone who isn't your type, THAT'S when you
will be carried beyond what you're used to experiencing, and then and ONLY
THEN will you experience TRUE PASSION.  But as I see it, you probably
wouldn't be interested in being swept off your feet by a guy who can touch deeply...and carry you way beyond passion, and show you things in
your heart that you didn't even know were there'.

This pattern is a real mind fuck, and feel free to personalize it in your
own words.
> One thing that's got her completely f*cked up is her
> belief that she's a bad
> person. She's used and abused guys in the past, and
> while part of her enjoys it,
> she admits to a terrible crushing guilt that pushes
> her to the edge.

Poor baby : )  Stop taking her problems so seriously!  Let her know that
you think she's an idiot when she talks like this.  Tease her, make fun of
her.  She has no sense of personal responsibility!  JEEEEZ!  OHHHH, the
guilt! : )
> What are a BPD's core beliefs, and what's the best
> way to address them?

The best way to address them is to make fun of them, with a smile and a
twinkle in your eye.  Provocative therapy is gonna be a real awakening for
you.  You're gonna thank me for this one!
> How can
> I anchor myself to her in a positive way so that
> she'll continue to trust me?

Tell her not to trust you, because you can't be trusted.  Of course, she'll
either disagree and trust you completely, or, she'll agree with you and
TRUST that you can't be trusted!  Its called a double-bind in NLP.
> Any comments or direction would be greatly
> appreciated.

hehe, I love this shit!


1. To Billy I.: You're welcome.

2. To NightLight9: You are a stud. I don't know who the hell you are, but
everyone needs to read the things you've written in the last post a few
extra times. You're a great communicator. You said "Looks matter except
when you make them not." I wish I would have said that. Perfect. Do me a
favor and come to my site at» and email me... I'd love
to talk to you more.

3. To Tristan: You're a stud, too. Love it. Thanks for your clear ideas...
I'd love to chat with you, too.

4. On the drama: If you pay careful attention, and you go back and read all
of my contributions, you'll find that I'm not the one starting the DRAMA
part of the conversations (hint). This is important, so keep it in mind
into the future...

5. On the idea that my techniques work only with 'club chicks' and women
with low self esteem: Not even close to accurate. Maybe 2 out of 10 women
that I go out with are from a 'club' type setting. And the women I date are
often the kind that have such high self esteem that even I'm a little

My concepts work because they were developed by studying guys who kicked
ass, then testing and refining what I learned... not by speculation. If you
are confused or would like a more objective opinion, you owe it to yourself
to try this simple test

Find ten men who 1) Are naturally good at seducing women, and 2) Aren't
familiar with the formalized ideas and concepts that are discussed on this

Have them read my materials (my original post should do the trick) and then
have them read any other system of picking up women... Here's what you'll
find Most or all of the natural pick up» artists will tell you that my ideas
are on target, realistic, and that I'm more accurate and "real world" than
any of the other systems, methods, or whatever else you show them. Before I
published my book online, I had several guys who were 'naturals' read
through all the materials and help me refine them. Is my stuff perfect?
Nope. Does it work for all guys in all situations? Nope. Am I Jesus and can
help the dead? Nope. Do I honestly believe that it's the best single
collection of ideas and techniques for the money to help a regular guy be
more successful with women? Yes, without question. Go try what I said...
show my original post to some killer pick up artists, then show them some
other stuff. Find out for yourself.

Thanks for all the great stuff, lately guys... what a great time to be alive!


Poetdude (review of Konnextions tapes; see
Pretty simple stuff, man. For a beginner, tremendously useful.  I like the
guy's really
simple, straightforward attitude of approaching in a non-intimidating manner
with no expectations.  In fact, I just used it on a girl at a copy shop
where I was picking up some stuff (total interaction 90 seconds, with some
and wisecracks) which resulted in a date that ended at 8.30 am this morning.
So it expanded my range a little bit, especially with the first tape, which
has this basic framework: 1) non-intimidating, happy, maybe offbeat approach
("What's that you're drinking?" "Chardonnay" "Oh, I happen to go great with
Chardonnay"); 2) one line of fluff; 3) name exchange; 4) one more line of
fluff; 5) lead-in to getting # ("I've gotta meet some friends, but I was
thinking..."); and 5) the crux of it all "If you feel comfortable, we should
exchange numbers -- we'll go out sometime."  Really, really light and
non-threatening -- kinda the antithesis of the hardcore, look deep into her
eyes and peer into her soul SS methods. I think that's where the strength
is - it's so non-threatening, the women can hardly summon up any resistance
to it.  How hard would *you* brace yourself against a leaf about to hit you?
Also good pointers on attitude, how to deal with the phone call and
answering machines, and how to deal with a host of objections -- again, the
theme is light, non-threatening, straightforward.  Altogether nothing we
didn't already know, but a good organization of some solid thinking from
someone who was a professional non-NLP persuader.


>This says two things 2) If you don't make a women
>excited simply by your appearance (and this means more than just looks), you
>better have a backup plan.

Well said; and even if you ARE "attractive" (whatever that happens to mean)
you STILL better be prepared for flakiness, "auto-pilot" behaviors, etc. etc.
>1) If you are attractive enough to get a woman
>in bed, you should master the art of not fucking up

Agreed; and handling tests, situations where you might NOT be so attractive
to someone you want to be with, etc. etc etc.
>People who are able to get high close
>ratios are either 1) naturally extremely attractive, or 2) masters of picking
>which women are going to receptive to being approached by them.  There was a
>time in my life where I was getting a 90% close ratio, because I was only
>approaching women who I could tell would be receptive

I'd add ONE more vital skill that you haven't considered, but that I have
put a LOT of effort into the last year; learning to handle "auto-pilot"
responses from women and turning it around to make them MASSIVELY more
responsive than they would otherwise have been.
>That resulted in me
>feeling like a stud, but being limited to only those women who already
>thought I was cute

Hmmm....let me give you a different criteria; approach women who are
SUGGESTIBLE and who offer COMPLIANCE as part of their being CURIOUS and
wanting to learn more.
>I did two things, one I decided I would approach women
>even if they didn't appear interested in me and find ways to change that,
>and two I decided to do the most I could to increase the women who were
>interested in me.  Wear a cool shirt, be the life of the party, learn
>language patterns, bring pivots out, smell good, ride a motorcycle and be a
>ladies man.  Also, know what state you need to be in to be effective.  I
>have to be excited, cocky, daring and happy to get beyond the chicks who are
>just attracted to me for some unknown reason right of the bat.

VERY TRUE!  GREAT!  Add in this, "The ability to rapidly spot what other
people are really responding to and rapidly utilize it!"  In other words, a
state of crystal clarity and readiness for action!
>One last thought on looks.  There are things that you can do immediately that
>will improve your odds.  Wear clothes that convey personality.

Style?  I have a couple of dragon shirts, one is black with two HUGE red
and yellow dragons. I get stopped and complimented on that by women all the

Ross commenting on NightLight9's response which was:
>Lately I've been having a lot of luck with the mantra "I don't pick up
>chicks" when I'm out sarging.  One of the girls I'm dating always says
>"Think about it." to me.  That's very powerful.

How about this; instead of thinking of "walkups" how about thinking
"Positive Energy Expansion". See who you will include in the circle
of  your good feeling and whether they deserve to stay around for more!

Ross (Commenting on comments on Bishop):
>He wrote that he initially had delivery problems from the printer, and
>then he tried to mail them on his own, and discovered printing problems.

Which is a contradiction to what he told me; that he DID mail them all (no
printer problem ever mentioned) and that the post office lost all the orders.


Ross Commenting on (Dwayne (
>I was observing a woman telling her friend (about a guy who was like an
AFC just doting on her -- >right in front of the dope's face, yet) "He's
sweet, but he's not my type."
>So, I'm thinking... next time a woman tries to lay that "not my type" bs
on me, I'll need a kewl
>pattern.  So, here is a rough draft of what I came up with

Keep it simple. "If you want to prejudge your own opportunities based on
the way you're USED to responding to men...maybe I'm not the one who really
loses from that". Then start walking away...

Ross Commenting on Stephane:
> 'Well, I take it back.  You're not a great dancer...(you should have
seen her face!)...What you
> a shining example...of what it be
>BREATHTAKING, I gently grab her hand in my right hand and start rubbing
the top of her soft hand
>with my other hand, all the while breathing with her and staring DEEPLY
in her eyes)

Ok. Good; what counts here and what worked is NOT the words, but the focus
of his intent. The message he is sending that HE is in control of himself
and is strong, making no apologies.
>She was in a deep, speechless trance, as I continued to gaze into her
eyes and said
>'...And it's SO meet someone...with such an incredible
energy...and a gentle passion...
>(5 second pause) name is KISS ME NOW' (She kissed me for about 3 and
a half minutes
>straight, passionately, yet soft and gently, and we caressed each others
bodies slowly, yet

Ha ha ha. I am reading this ONE handed. And they say language doesn't
>"Hi"...I just give a curious stare, like a child, for about 5 seconds and
she blushes and smiles and >looks down.  So I say (MY famous line, trademark)

Hmm. He's going into the state he wants HER to go into.  By not responding
right away, he puts her on hold.....(notice the 5 second pause again which
builds the response potential by putting the other person on hold). THEN he
leads her into the blushing state by going into a childlike state himself.
>'What DIDN''T you say your name WASN'T?' (As I extend my hand)
>(This can actually make a woman have a hard time remembering her name!)
>(This is where I gently hold her hand and put mine on top of hers,
indicating that it should STAY
>''s nice meet a woman who doesn't have looks...(pause for
effect)..and looks alone...
>(hihi!)..because I can have great taste'
>'Because you laugh at what I say (as I gently poke her stomach, and she
giggles), and I DO
>ENJOY...the company...of someone...who knows how to let loose...and
giggle (poke tummy
>again) and feel good!
>At this point she's giggling so I go
>'Speaking to a person who loves to laugh...and feel good...for
no reason, do you live in
>San Francisco?' (I ran out of material!!!)

Keep experimenting in this way; you've got the basics. Interrupting
patterns thru silence, pausing, and/or confusing language.
>When I approach a woman, I always do it with warmth and empathy, and they
almost always
>respond in kind.  True, you have to call her on her bullshit and not back
down, but alot of guys
>seem to be looking for problems, thus creating them.
>What I do is I presuppose she is whatever I want her to be, I do it with
my language and
>everything.  It works.

That way, you give her a better direction in which to head. Good!
>It'll work for a while, then they just go back to making internal movies
of me doing nasty and
>enjoyable things behind their backs. And the fact that I only see my
girlfriends once a week turns
>those submodalities way up!)

Yeah, bedrock insecurities require serious help to overcome.  You can
overcome some behavioral slips, but fundamental boundary problems need
serious work.  Or move on.
>Either that, or I'll tell the girl, in the beginning, how I had "This
crazy girlfriend" and launch into
>whatever I want this girl to avoid, such as not understanding the need to
go out with friends, have
>other friends who are girls. Example
>"Once I had this CRAZY girlfriend who actually thought that it was WRONG
for me to look at
>another girl!!  Isn't that nuts?  On the other hand, I dated this other
girl who was SMART.  Instead
>of getting all worked up and throwing a fit every time a cute girl walks
by, she did it in REVERSE.
>She would say, "LOOK AT HER! Isn't she gorgeous!"  Now, at first, I was
shocked and a little
>uncomfortable, but then I realized this is how ALL couples should
be.  Instead of going into stress
>every time someone attractive is nearby, why not enjoy it instead?  So,
what I started to do was
>play along with her.  When I saw an attractive man, I pointed him out.
That caused an AMAZING
>THING to happen, because it actually brought us closer together, know
what I mean?"

I think that's golden!  GREAT GOING!


> I once posted on the SS list something along the lines of what Sisonpyh
>  advocates. A bit different with differences that make all the difference.
>  Anyway, some time later there was a NYC meeting with some of the "top" SS
>  "brothers". At some point I had asked the bro's for their opinion about my
>  post, and I got mixed opinions. Many took the opposite view, of course.

I agreed with you AND Ross.  I agreed with Ross, that it's not about being a
control freak, a bully or ALWAYS responding a particular way or
NEVER responding another.
>  Several hours later, I raised a question to the group. My question was
>  something like "What do you do with women so that they don't frame your
>  time with you as a "relationship"? What do you do to frame yourself
>  differently from other guys?"
>  What surprised me was that the answers that I got and their methods were
>  EXACTLY the methods I outlined in my post! EXACTLY!! The same guys who
>  initially knocked my post, told me that they do PRECISELY what I
>  advocated! When I pointed that out to them, they were speechless!

I guess cause I don't see it as "never answer a question directly" but more
like how can I respond in a way that engages the imagination and elicits
responses that bring me closer to my goal?
>  E.g., one of the guys who knocked my "advice" told me that when a girl asks
>  him what do you, he tells her in a Mafioso-like tone, "I take care of
>  things.." He does that because he wants to come off as a Bad Boy, as a
>  mystery. He tells her, "If they throw me in once more, this time it'll be
> for life!"

I don't ALWAYS respond that way.  With that particular chick
she asked me out of reflex, really not concerned with the answer
and just to say something.  So my response was perfect in that
context with that particular girl. I might drop a bad boy seed
here and there and see how she responds, but I will also test
provider, adventurer, romancer characters and cycle between those that
she responds best to.  This allows me to not fit into any one particular
category, thus creating a new category for me.  This makes me different.
> He's not giving her a straight answer!

You're right I don't give a straight answer, but my intent is to engage
her imagination. That's the difference.  If I were to respond "I drive
a limo" that doesn't give me the response I'm looking for.
Instead , I might say "what I do is very fulfilling.  I operate
a mobile confession booth" or "I take people on adventures"
etc. etc. That builds interest and intrigue first and then
when I say exactly what I do,  I've pre-framed it in
a way that provides a more effective lens in which to view
me as a person.
>  In one shape or another, EVERYONE in that group followed my rule of
>  "changing either the request or the timing". And then they bitched about
>  this rule!
> What I'm saying is, Let's be honest about what we really do. Don't tell me
>  that my rule is so horrible when you yourself use it all the time.

I don't use that rule. I give her what she needs.  When she wants
to know what I do, what she really needs is to find out more about me
and my model of the world. That is what I give her.

If she asks "Where are you from"  I can answer Brooklyn,
but again, that doesn't engage the imagination. Instead
I might say "Where I'm from is very interesting... it's not
the land of fairies, wizards and warriors, but probably a
place you only caught a glimpse of in the movies" get her
to process that, and then tell her.

So my INTENT is to engage her imagination, not evade
her questions or not give her a straight answer. Although,
yes, it isn't a straight answer, but it' the intent that makes
the difference.


> Descartes
> This is an ad from a free personals site. I think it is very insightful
> "Too often, men say that women want to be treated like crap. Men seem to
> think that women want the bad boy because he is dangerous and because we
> can't have him. He won't commit to us, he doesn't have time for us, and
> thus we desire him more.
> Gentleman, this is bullshit.
> Although we WANT the bad boy, we don't want him to be bad to us. We are
> attracted to him because of other qualities, and we put up with the way he
> treats us to access these qualities. Typically, a bad boy is aggressive. He
> is controlling, decisive, and successful in business. He is competitive in
> sports. He is a smart, calculating, smooth talker. Sexually, he will grab
> us by the hair or throw us on a bed. He is dynamic, with a million
> interests/friends and is busy all the time. He plays to win on every level
> and lets no one get in his way. In a base, biological sense, a woman sees a
> man like this and thinks, Strong man. Head of tribe. He protect me and kill
> big animal to eat.
> Unfortunately, women have needs beyond biological. We want a long-term,
> monogamous relationship (boyfriend, husband, or long-time companion);
> someone who won't cheat on us; someone who is sensitive to our moods and
> fears; someone who WANTS to spend time with us; someone who calls to say
> goodnight. Alas, most often this is not our bad boy as described above but
> is instead the nice guy, quiet, poet, artist, gentle/careful lover who
> would rather watch Antique Road Show than play sports, and who has so few
> interests that he has all the time in the world for us.
> I'm falling asleep just thinking about him.
> Does a modern-day caveman who can fulfill both the biological and the
> emotional/intellectual actually exist? I doubt it, but if you think you can
> prove me wrong, then drop me a line. I am 34, extremely attractive, and
> prefer men who are equally attractive and FIT (base biological thing
again ;-)"

That entry in the personals is typical from a 30+ something. Do you
really think she wanted a nice guy when she was at her prime at 21?
FYI most chycks who claim they are real hot looking are in fact NOT.

*R*E*A*L*I*T*Y   S*L*A*P

Whenever a chyck talks about what women want, it is important to factor in her
age, AND her looks. That personals entry is exactly the opposite of what we
to be true  of the young Hot Babes and Super Hot Babes. The older ones,
past their prime,
unattractive ones, yes. A lot of Super hotties spend their prime years
giving themselves as an all you can eat buffet to every millionaire rock
star and loser they can get their hands
on, and once past their prime look for the nice guy chump/AFC who will
marry their
damaged goods.

'Nuff said.


Maxin (Commenting on: the same section Flyer comments on above from Descartes):
I think this is a great text. Just a little modification and it could be
turned into the ultimate personal ad, just switch "gentleman this is
bullshit" to "ladies this is bullshit" and a couple other modifications
and I bet the response would be pretty strong.


"Let's have a passionate love affair behind your husband's back"
To NightLight9

It's funny how most of the responses I have received from Cliff's list all
seem to focus on the issue of looks. I never really brought up the issue
myself or focused on it as much as all the respondents to my submissions. I
also do not see myself as great looking or anything special. Average at the
most but much of the feedback I have received from me and women indicates
that I do look good and that seems to help greatly. That being said I
believe that there obviously seems to be much more than just the issue of
looks that makes a person attractive or desirable. If looks were the only
variant then the world would be populated by only good looking people since
only those would mate and any ugly string of genes would have eventually
died off. How many times has you seen a woman with a baby and said to
yourself "What sort of a madman would have the sickness and sense of humour
in him to impregnate such beast?"

Let's use the following analogy. What makes a great car? A powerful engine,
great exterior, internal features. The exterior may initially attract but
without a powerful engine inside, unless you do not care about it, the car
is not worth anything to you. Same idea with the issue of looks. A buff body
without confidence, intelligence or a sense of humour may open a few doors
but will not get you very far.

I went out with this once girl about 6 times in the spring. She was
stunning, a former model, perfect breasts, full lips and an ass to kill for.
But by the 2nd date I began losing all attraction. Why? She was loud. She
laughed very loud and made stupid faces during conversation. She has a
"nothing is ever wrong" attitude. She always said everything in her life was
perfect. I asked her how her day was and she would say "Perfect, the best
day ever" or how her workout went "One of the best I ever had." This made me
fucking sick for nothing is ever perfect all the time for anyone. She also
lacked openness and would not share her thoughts. These things indicated a
lack of integrity and trust. I swear sometimes and when I did she corrected
me and said that intelligent people do not swear. The last three times I saw
her, she was the one that asked me out and I just went along for the sake of
the activity i.e. movie, dancing not for her and to see if I could change my
opinion of her. After I stopped calling her she called me a few times to ask
me out but I kept telling her I had plans even though sometimes I did not.
The thought of sleeping with her repulsed me and I never did. She sensed my
reluctance to sleep with her and told me what gets her in the mood in the
hopes of having me arrange the setting so that I could sleep with her.

As good looking and attractive as she was she turned me off with her
attitude. And having said that should it be any different with women seeing
us men in the same manner? Looks attract but if you do not have a
personality then you can forget about anything beyond first meetings.

I am sure all readers have seen really stunning women but said to themselves
"I will not approach her because she seems closed off and is not likely to
talk to me." Conveying openness and acceptance through a smile and eye
contact tends to increase our level of attractiveness. Even walking through
a mall I found that by looking  in the eye at women that pass by makes them
smile and say hello. Following that up with a smile and more eye contact and
a friendly open and low key conversation seems to produce the best results.
No matter how attractive you may be, if you lack openness and attentiveness
you will lose anyone that comes across you path.

Here is a funny story for ya.
About a month ago I met a woman outside my office building. I gave her my
business card and told her to send me an e-mail. Two days later she did. We
exchanged messages and when I asked her out she told me she was married. I
then said to her "That is fine but I would like to have a passionate love
affair with you behind your husband's back."  She said no but continued to
call me and e-mail me everyday saying she likes talking to me and walking to
the mall for lunch. This week we were out walking and I was talking about how I
would like her to cook for me. Later in the day she sent me an e-mail saying
that she could come over to my house and cook for me. I challenged her
comments saying that on the one hand she refuses the affair, which I
constantly suggested to her, and on the other hand she wants to come over
and cook for me. She became upset and said she did not want to speak to me
again and wished me a good life. I hung up the phone and went along with my
business. Next day at 8:00 am she calls me on my cell and leaves a message
apologizing for her actions and asking me to call her back. I did not. The
next day she sends me the following e-mail.

Hi Mark,

How are you?  I guess you're still mad at me. Could you tell me what I did
wrong so maybe you could help me improve on my weaknesses or bad habits.  I
never meant to hurt you. One time you told me that God send me to you, God
is also a forgiving God
when we say sorry. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

Enjoy your day.


With the help of Dennis Neder of we created
the following message that I sent to her:


It's obvious that you've tried to manipulate me and the situation to
achieve maximum attention from me without having to reciprocate to my
interests in you. Unfortunately, I won't play this game.

You are an attention freak and I am not in the business of giving attention
out freely.

When you have cleaned up your act and only when you have done so
and only when you are ready for something more serious with me than we had,
you are free to call me or contact me again.

I will not tolerate anything less than that or subject myself to any more
nonsense from you.

She called me three times that day in desperation wanting to talk. The first
two times I told her I was on the other line and the next time I was in a
meeting. It's funny how a married women can be driven to this level of
desperation and passions simply by telling her "I want you and I would like
to have a passionate love affair with you behind your husband's back."  I
wonder how powerful this can be when used on single women or ones with
boyfriends. I can't wait to test it out on other unsuspecting victims. Any


Stephanie was just killer with her explanation of nice guy vs. 'jerk'. I
really liked her explanation.
However, it would be foolish to think that all women think that way as they
obviously don't. Even those guys that do watch the Antiques Road Show get
laid occasionally and even get married, fruitful, and multiply. Proof is in the
gene pool all around you. Point being it would be foolish to think that one
model fits all women, so be flexible in your approach. However, if you do hit
one that fits Stephanie's model as she described it, Stephanie has laid out
the approach and criteria enormously well - you could not not succeed using

I gave a couple of presentations to the Mensa Annual Gathering here in
Dallas in July. One on Palmistry and the other on Power Rapporting, which
was a mix of rapport skills, values elicitation, stuff from the 48 Rules
of Power and so forth. Interesting group - I did the presentations simply to
be around them to see what they were up to. One of the gals that I met told
me the Mensa guys were gleefully reassuring each other that if you couldn't
get laid at a Mensa Convention, then you just couldn't get laid. Pretty
obvious as to why she was telling me this, yes? Nice gal, not my type but
found truth in her words - my first presentation was on the second day of
the Convention and most of the people looked like warmed over death as they
had been partying continuously since the thing started. When I went back the
next day to give my second presentation, they looked like Death itself so
evidently the partying continued on...didn't go back the last day of the
convention so I have no idea of who was left standing by then!


Magic Juan:
>>The fact that it is hollow may mean you are confused about who you

I'm curious why it doesn't mean she is an open person with nothing
to hide.
>>instead of meditating, that you get out and talk to people.

Change "instead of" to "in addition to" and you have good advice.


LonesomeCat (Commenting to Darren:
"I was wondering if there is anyone out there who is experienced at
nonverbal (read mostly physical) techniques to get a woman aroused and
turned on (I'm talking more about when you first approach a girl rather than
later at your place or in the bedroom).  You must know that I sarge
primarily in clubs and bars, and my question is directed more in terms of
those kinds
of settings.  Specifically, I have been observing how guys approach and
interact with girls at bars and clubs, and I've noticed that some successful
ones incorporate lots of physical contact (such as putting his arm around
her waist, placing his hand on her back, rubbing her back, etc.) pretty
early on
in the approach.  Lots of touching on the part of the guy seems to convey
confidence and aggression, and the girls seem to enjoy this.  This is one
component that is usually lacking in my sarges, and I think it might be
hurting my game.  I invite thoughts and suggestions from other brothers on
this topic.  Also, if anyone can recommend any books or resources on this
topic (especially for bar/club settings), please let me know."):

I would suggest may be not to invest so much in books, but rather in a good
massage workshop, where you will be sure that there will be women
participants (usually, there are more women than men, anyway!!).
This would help you, while practising during the workshop, feeling different
types of women (their bodies & psychic energies, if you care about this).
And it should help you being more relaxed touching someone you hardly know.

And consider yourself lucky to be a man, for it is usually something a
woman cannot do to a man in a bar (or in a public place...) because of
ancestral prejudices.  Men first...


To Ross
Or to anyone else that can  answer this.  I have been reading Cliff"s list
as well as some other web based discussion boards devoted to seduction, and
there are two bodies of thought that seem to be opposed to each other yet
very effective that are continually discussed.  One is the SS model which
uses a variety of tools to seduce women, some of it bold and direct,  and
some of it not so direct, poetic and hypnotic if you will .  Then you have
a style such as that practiced by Mark B. and others that is very direct,
relies little on NLP or linguistic technique, just being bold and truthful.
You tell a woman she is gorgeous and that you want to cover there body in
kisses. You don't beg, you just tell the woman what you want and how you
expect to be treated.  Obviously this system is
working.  I have noticed other people using this style as well with
success, and it does not seem to be dependent on how good looking you are
or how much cash you have,  women just respect you when show them your true
passions about them and deliver it with a smile (similar to the grand
master style that you see posted on the Maniac site - see

I could go on with many examples of  men who were very direct with women
and had success, but I think most everyone in here is familiar with its
effectiveness.  My question is this, when should a person choose the direct
nonNLP route or when should they choose the SS type route?  I have read
much of the advice given here, and although good, it tends to confuse me
more on what style to model, especially the direct vs. SS mode.  I like the
SS model because it offers incredible potential and creativity in the
seduction process and is very different from the macho, hard drinking
"alpha" model that many think is the path to PUAdom.  However, the process
of  SS is not
natural for men, it takes a lot of time to learn the materials for some and
on first sight is more complex and intricate; it is definitely the thinking
man's seduction.  In fact, I knew of one PUA who used the BJ pattern and
instead of using chocolate as a metaphor he used the word penis.  He got no
complaints from the woman.  On the other hand, the direct model is nice
because it is so simple, in other words it is short and sweet.  It just
seems a lot easier to tell a women that she is pretty and that you want to
give the most passionate experience of her life to her.
But on the other hand I realize there are limitations to this, for instance
trying to mold a woman  to your sexual desires might be harder.

At any rate, I am at somewhat of a crossroads on what direction to take.  I
have made direct sexual remarks before to women and not gotten any
flack.  Is it that women are changing and becoming more open where NLP is
not as necessary as it once was?  Or is it that some individuals are more
suited to one style over the other?  I am not looking for debate, just some
concrete advice.
As a follow up to  Rasputin  (which translated from Russian means
"debaucherous"), I believe the book that detailed his seductions in depth
was the first book that came out about him after the Soviet Union
collapsed. Because of his seductions with female members of the Romanov
dynasty, he was continually watched by the NKVD (precursor for the
KGB).  In typical AFC thinking of the day, it was thought that his
seductions were because of the size of his penis.  However this was
disproved when a spy followed Rasputin to a Moscow bathhouse (taking a rare
bath) and found out he was quite average in the endowment
department.  Because he was seen as somewhat mystical, he would hold court
on Sundays and people (mainly women) would visit him for spiritual
advice, kind of the way you would line up to sit on Santa Claus's lap
before Xmas.  One thing he would do would be to briefly but intensely stare
at a woman who may be across the room.  Then he would look away ('do a take
away' if you will) and continue with whomever he was talking with.  Then he
would look back at that woman again with his stare.  Evidently, this had a
very mesmerizing effect on the woman in question.  Usually she would then
come up to Rasputin and he would give her some intriguing bits of info and
later seduce her.  Since the free
wheeling sexual days of  Catherine the Great, female members of the Russian
aristocracy had been seriously constrained, especially during the last
Romanov dynasty.  Many women of the court were in very defined, restrictive
roles as members of the monarchy.  Rasputin somehow put them in a state of
relaxation (using similar techniques that he used to stop hemophilia), and
was (at least temporarily) able to give them a sense of freedom, to be
"natural" as it were.  Sound familiar?

I have been to many bookstores and have been unable to find any books on
Rasputin.  I will probably order the most recent one on him (the one by
David Moynihan might be the one I am looking for) and see if this is the
one that devotes much to his hypnotic "debauchery".  I guess biographies on
the Brady Bunch are more popular than this intriguing and misunderstood monk.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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