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It’s totally the wrong time of the month
8/6/01 2:22:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time

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More on the idea of a Cliff's Private List seminar next summer in Montreal
that was mentioned in the last email I sent out:  So far, all comments have
been positive except that a couple of people think it should be held in the
U.S.  The reasons for it being here are as follows (and I could be
convinced otherwise):
1) The women in Montreal are worth the trip.
2) U.S. money is worth a lot more here (you are talking like over $1.50
Canadian for $1 U.S.) so even if the flights are more expensive, once you
are here you should find it cheap.  And you can fly cheap (see
www.jetblue.com) into Burlington, Vermont and drive (or catch a bus) 1.5
hours to get up here.
3) My previous discussions with others who hold seminars in the US that it
is difficult to find a hotel at a reasonable price where you have all the
facilities you want that is available when you want it -- not to mention
that it is even more difficult to get a hotel that meets that description
which is located in the heart of the action in the city.  This is easily
available here - eg. at Major Mark's seminar, the hotel was two blocks away
from one of the two main trendy streets in town so going out at night was
just walking distance away.
4) I can arrange and do things here that I can't in another city (and I
have some ideas that would a lot of fun).

As for those concerned about going to another country when they come to
Canada, it would be best if you had your passport up to date but as far as
I know you don't need any special visas to come here -- in fact, in theory
you could probably get across the border with just some good photo i.d.
like a driver's license (but it would be best to have a valid passport).
There has been a lot of press lately about reducing the restrictions
between the borders of Canada and the U.S., and this may be much more
advanced or even in place a year from now.

I am very interested to hear comments from anyone who finds this of interest.

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Sisonpyh from doubleyourdating.com:»
In Cliff's last email, Ronnie asked "My question is this, when should a
person choose the direct nonNLP route or when should they choose the SS
type route?"

This is really an excellent question... and a well phrased explanation of
the question. And it's a great time for me to wax philosophical about a
topic that I've been thinking and writing about lately.

Do you guys all remember "Assman" from the list here?

Remember his post with the "Approach a woman and put your hand on her
shoulder and say in a MENACING TONE "I'm the monitor here"...." Remember
that damn funny shit?

Well, in the middle of Assman's posts, he said something that could have
been one of the top three most profound things I've ever heard about the
topic of success with women. Now I'm paraphrasing him here (and above), but
my interpretation goes something like this: "Seduction" is the feminine
road to getting laid. There is another, more direct, more MASCULINE road.

What is that road? And what the hell is that road called? I think that the
road is ATTRACTION, not seduction.

In my writing, I'm getting away from the word "seduction" because I
personally think that it implies a mindset of indirectness.

I just went to dictionary.com, and here's the exact definition that is offered:
"seduction Se*duc*tion, n. [L. seductio cf. F. s['e]duction. See Seduce.]
1. The act of seducing; enticement to wrong doing; specifically, the
offense of inducing a woman to consent to unlawful sexual intercourse, by
enticements which overcome her scruples; the wrong or crime of persuading a
woman to surrender her chastity."

I think that seduction implies trickery and manipulation. And like Assman
said, I think that seduction is a 'more feminine' road to success with women.

OK, OK, now I realize that I've opened up a gigantuous (my word) can of
night crawlers here, so let me continue...

When I learn a technique, I get out there and test it out to see if it
works. I look around to see if others are using it, and how it's working
for them... then, if I like it, I refine it, practice it, and make it part
of my behavior.

I started out my education by learning seduction techniques. By this I mean
using poetry, meta-physical raps, romantic stories, patterns, hypnosis,
etc. I would talk about flowers, tell stories about things that made women
feel good... whatever. And I got pretty good at it, too.

I mean, I may not be the smartest guy on the planet, but I don't think my
daddy raised no fool. I worked, practiced, and used the seduction mind set
for at least a couple of years. And I got some good results with it.

But here's the other side: At the same time, it was VERY hit and miss. It
felt kind of weird telling women about their future or personalities, or
telling stories in the middle of a coffee shop when I'd just met them five
minutes before.... there were too many times that it all just seemed out of
place for me.

Since I started out with a mind set of "I have to seduce these women..." I
didn't really have space in my model of the world for an 'alternative
method', if you will. I was like Maslow with my hammer. I was trying to fit
everything that I heard into this particular framework.

Well, as I started meeting more guys who were good with women, I started to
notice some interesting things. I noticed that, for one, each of them had
kind of figured out certain things (some learned them from others) that
were almost like a 'code' for guys.

And I also noticed that they shared certain mind sets and beliefs.

One day, I had the famous Steve and Eric Hypnotist Team over to my place to
do some work with my best friend. They worked with him for about four hours
straight (yeah, he was in a trance for a week after that one...). The
interesting part was that as they were teaching him their mind set about
women, they NEVER mentioned anything that even VAGUELY sounded like
'seduction' to me.

In fact, they kept saying things like "I give her the opportunity to suck
my dick, and if she's good, she can come back for more..." and "If they
start any drama I kick them out on their ass..." and such.

Four hours worth. Straight.

Next, I met one of my neighbors (the guy who taught me the idea of "Cocky
and Funny" and who said "That's Faggot Shit!")... and he started showing me
how he was able to bed women. By the way, this guy is the king. He pretty
much gets laid whenever he wants, and I'm not kidding here. He beats my ass
when it comes to going out and bringing home a hot woman.

Every time I would tell this guy about some idea that I was learning or
some technique that I used on a chick, he would just get this confused look
and tell me that I was off base (or say "That's Faggot Shit!").

Then, I started hanging around with the famous bisexual banging guy "Rick",
who you've all heard from many times... and Rick would say all these things
to me like "No good deed goes unpunished" and "Be a bitch to women..." and
such.

Finally, I met a guy that might be the most unreal of all of them (a friend
of Rick's of course). This guy is like a cartoon or something. The first
time I met him he's saying things like "I have to fuck a lot of women. I
need two, three, four at a time... I walk up to women and say "Hi, you're
hot, I'm taking you home with me and my girlfriend..." I know this sounds
out there, but it's 100% true. I've personally seen this guy in action on
MANY MANY occasions and he just blows my mind every time. One night he and
I and Rick were standing on the side of the road and he was literally
waving carloads of women over to the side so we could talk to them. He
would up getting us a ride home with two teenage chicks (one of which I
later had over for an evening of fun, but she was a virgin and wanted me to
be the first and I said "No thanks... I don't need a stalker...") I digress.

Anyways, you get the idea. This guy is a monster.

I could go on and on, but if you're not getting my drift, let me lay it
down.... All the guys that had figured this out on their own and were
really kicking ass seemed to share this kind of attitude and system. It was
like they were saying "I don't need to seduce anyone. I attract women, not
seduce them."

OK, OK, let's go back and qualify a few things before I get crucified....

I've had different guys write me and say "I write a lot of poetry, and
women love it... so I use it to seduce them" or "I play the guitar, and I
sing songs, and women love it..." etc.

Is this the kind of 'seduction' that I'm giving the backhand to above?
Well, yes, but no.

I think that if you naturally love to write poetry, and it's part of your
life, and you like to show it to women, and women are attracted to you
because of it, this is different than if you heard that women like poetry,
so you learned to write poems for women (or you claim to write but are
actually reading poetry written by others) and are using it to seduce women.

Are you with me here?

Now, one could make the argument that what I'm talking about with this more
masculine, teasing, ball busting behavior is the same thing. I mean, isn't
it the same if you're learning something that you didn't know before just
to get more chicks into bed?

Again, yes, but no.

Instead of getting into a boring blah blah blah explanation, I'm going to
try to break it down for everyone. I realize that I'm trying to describe
something that isn't all the way figured out, but I think you'll understand
the idea, and maybe we can fill in some of the blanks together in the
future...

(I'm about to make some broad, sweeping generalizations that require you to
insert "in most cases" and "usually" and "I'm a grownup and I know that I
have to go try this for myself" and such. So for all you who like to take
snippets out of context, here's some good material for you...)

1. I think that there is a big difference between what women 'want' and
what causes them to feel ATTRACTED to a man at a gut level. And I don't
think that women are consciously in control of this automatic, visceral
attraction mechanism.

2. I think that most men could not tell you what triggers this automatic
mechanism.

3. I think this female turn-on mechanism is HARD WIRED into the brain and
nervous system, and reacts to certain things instantly and automatically.
These things can be looks, smells, voice, behavior, a combination, or
whatever. Again, I think that this mechanism comes as standard equipment on
most women from birth. This means that they didn't choose it... also, most
have never learned how to control it, and they don't know how to turn it on
or off.

4. I think that 'seduction' techniques are an indirect way to get at this
mechanism, meaning they WORK, but they are not the most effective way in
general. At best, most 'seduction' techniques are still slower than what
I'm calling 'attraction techniques'.

5. I think that when Marlon Brando was beating his wife and furrowing his
brow in "A Streetcar Name Desire" that women were creaming themselves in
their seats in the theaters. (I had to throw in a shocker example.)

6. I think that there is a way to project this masculine ATTRACTION quality
without being abusive, mean, fucked up, violent, or otherwise ridiculous.

7. I think that adding humor can increase your success with this concept
dramatically.

8. Let's stop with the damn numbers and start talking HOW TO!

By the way, I love this list. It's a fucking great place to share advanced
ideas like this one with guys who will look at it and give me some real
world feedback.... exciting.

So here's what I'm calling "Attraction Theory" (tm). You read it here first.

The basic principle is this:
IN EACH SITUATION WITH A WOMAN, YOU CAN INCREASE THE ATTRACTION THAT SHE
FEELS INSIDE... YOU CAN TRIGGER HER INSTANT ATTRACTION MECHANISM IN SOME
WAY DIRECTLY.

In direct mail marketing, there are what are called "amplifiers" and "filters".

For instance, if you get a piece of mail, and your name is on it, and it's
spelled correctly, tests show that you are more likely to open it. This is
called an "amplifier". Get it?

If a direct mail piece says "Current Resident" on it, then tests show that
you are less likely to open it. This is called a "filter".

What I'm saying is that there is a similar force at work when a man and a
woman meet. At each stage, either there is an INCREASE IN ATTRACTION or
there is a DECREASE IN ATTRACTION.

I think that by acting more 'masculine' and by doing a few things, you can
keep increasing the attraction level... until you ultimately get what you want.

Remember before when I mentioned that some of the 'seduction' methods I
used originally seemed a little out of place in many situations? Well, when
you're doing the cocky and funny bit, and acting more macho studly manly
(in a certain way, of course), it comes off more REAL in most situations.

So here are a couple of examples and how to's... (again, please insert your
own "in general..." and "In most situations..." and "if you're a handsome
guy, but it's after six P.M. and she's had more than three drinks," etc.)

To sum up as best I can in one phrase, here's what I do:
I act like this new woman is a friend I haven't seen in awhile, and I'm
going to bust his balls like a good old friend should.

You know how you talk to your old high school buddies that you haven't seen
in three years? "What's up/ Hey, what the hell happened to you? You grew an
extra chin and shit... KIDS? Damn, I thought they outlawed kids for people
with IQ's of under 50...?"

When you're talking to an old buddy, you are totally un-self-conscious.
You're cool and laid back. You could give a damn what he's thinking about you.

Now, add a dash of "I'm skeptical about you" to this mix, and you have a
pretty good start for what I'm talking about.

By the way, just because I'm describing this whole thing here doesn't mean
that I think it's a simple, easy thing to do with the next chick you meet.
Most of the guys that I know who are starting out have a lot of unconscious
behaviors that they need to get under control before they try to act like
Mr. Man.

If you have a habit of looking away from a woman in a shy way every time
you see one, you have to deal with that first. If you cry when you get
scared, you might want to work on that...

Next, you have to add humor. Sarcasm and dry humor are best, in my opinion.
I think that every man should buy a copy of Melvin Helitzer's book "Comedy
Writing Secrets" and read it about 10 times... and watch some good funny
movies. Read Maxim Magazine (tons of great one-liners in that magazine).
Practice and learn how to answer everything with a funny, wise-ass response.

"Hi do you have the time?"

"Sure, do you have a dollar?"

Now, you don't want to over-do this one and come off like a dumb-ass.
You're looking to make a joke often enough to keep the conversation moving,
and keep her saying "This guy is kind of cocky, but he's damn funny... I
have to find out more about him..." This takes practice and experience in
the real world, just like anything else.

I really like Mystery's stuff that he posts. He always talks about getting
out there and trying shit, fucking up, learning, and improving. This is key.

I personally like to practice on EVERY WOMAN I MEET. I work waitresses,
checkers, homeless chicks, whatever. I'm always trying to find new ways to
get a woman to say "Damn, that guy is cool and funny...." and most
importantly to have that INSTANT SPARK OF ATTRACTION.

By the way, I used to be self-conscious about making sexual innuendoes and
making jokes by sexually misinterpreting what a woman says... but I've
found that if it's done in a sarcastic, funny way it is MAGIC. Women love
to make jokes and talk about sex, and if you can take what they're saying
and use it to ACCUSE THEM OF TRYING TO PICK YOU UP OR GET YOU INTO BED it
is so damn funny and attractive...

All right. I think I've written enough. I've been typing for two hours
now.... I'm done.

I really hope this helps to expand the minds of those who are on this list.
I know that I'm probably sticking my neck out with some of this stuff, but
I'm not making it up... this is really my experience and the experience of
many guys I know who kick ass with women.

I'm going to give myself a cookie and plug my book one more time... come to
my site at www.doubleyourdating.com and check out my materials. It's the
ultimate guide to what I'm talking about here with lots of specifics and
examples...

A quick note to all those guys who are 'seduction meisters' out there... I
want to mention that this is just my opinion, and it's not meant to say
"I'm better" or whatever. It's another way of thinking about all of this.
And for god sakes, if you have a system that works for you, don't fuck it
up by throwing it away just because I happen to have a different idea. Do
what works for you, and use what makes sense. Lord knows that I'm not
perfect... and if this helps you, then I'm glad. I feel a certain kinship
with everyone on this list because this is where I started sharing my
original ideas, and this is where I put all of my latest thinking before I
fancy it up and put it in a book or something. So like I said, do what
works for you, and if 'seducing' women is what works and feels like the
right thing for you, then keep doing it!

And for Ronnie If what you're doing works for you, then integrate other
things and improve. Don't believe that you have to take one road. Stay on
your own road, man.

Until next time I just can't help myself...

Sisonpyh

Postum Scriptum I just let Bisexual Babe Banging Rick read this whole thing
(he's my roommate, by the way...) and he had a response that I thought was
pretty damn insightful. He said Seduction is stepping into a woman's world,
then leading her into your world (and hopefully getting laid in the
process) and the model that I present here of "Attraction" is in effect
saying "I'm a man, you're attracted to me, and you're going to come into my
world" (which, if done right, often creates instant attraction).

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Halbster (Commenting to Vinnigar):
>  I don't ALWAYS respond that way.  With that particular chick
>  she asked me out of reflex, really not concerned with the answer
>  and just to say something.  So my response was perfect in that
>  context with that particular girl. I might drop a bad boy seed
>  here and there and see how she responds, but I will also test
>  provider, adventurer, romancer characters and cycle between those that
>  she responds best to.  This allows me to not fit into any one particular
>  category, thus creating a new category for me.  This makes me different.

This testing approach is very interesting.  It isn't often that someone
writes something that really makes me think through my style.  Can you please
write some more about how you do this.  Thanks.

(Another comment by Halbster):
Recently, there's been some discussion on your list about modeling.  The
focus has been primarily on modeling people who are natural seducers.  There
is another way to model, and if we apply it your list can become a powerful
resource to multiply, amplify, and accelerate those learnings.  We can model
ourselves.  There are several approaches that can be taken.  I'd like to toss
some questions out to the group to get the process started.  I will answer
the questions in your next mailing because 1) I don't want to pre-influence
or suggest a direction for answers that might rule out other answers, and 2)
I don't have time to type now because I have a lot of work to do.
1) At what times in your life have you been the most successful at seduction?
2) What are the common factors present at those times?
3) What did you do differently during your best seductions?
4) What consistent things have woman told you or done during your best
seductions that they ordinarily don't tell you or do? i.e. "You make me feel
like a woman," "You make me feel sexy while appreciating my other
qualities," etc.
5) Go through your seductions in every sensory channel.  i.e. How did you
present yourself visually?  How did you touch her?  How did you sound?  What
rhythm did you set?  What was your state?  Then notice how it relates to hers.
6) Where have you been most successful at meeting and seducing woman?
7) How did you open?  How did you set up the next meeting?  How did you close?
8)  What has worked with strangers?
9) What has worked with friends?
10) What was different in your life at that time? i.e. work, family, home,
grooming, diet, exercise, rituals, geographics, school, other women, etc.
There are many more questions that you can ask and explore.  These are just a
few to get you started.

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Ross:
(Commenting on "NamelessGuy was asking Stephane about how he handles women
with BPD (which stands for Borderline Personality Disorder, or flaky,
head-gaming, immature girls that happen to be HOT, and know it).":

I got a technique I learned from Dr. Elton Snagglepuss. It's called
"EXIT..STAGE LEFT!"

Ross (Commenting on:
"Since he masturbated 10-15 times per day, I told him to double it. I said
do it 30-40 times a day, and call me in a week. Then, I assured him, he
will be ready to give it up for good."):

You had Gordon Roy Parker as a client???!!!!???!!!! Sorry...just had to get
that in!

My Comment:  Normally I don't like to put personal attacks in here, but
this guy received an email invitation from my awhile ago for a free
subscription to these emails.  It says clearly that if you don't respond to
the invitation, you won't hear from me again.  What does this cracker
do?  He doesn't send me an email telling me not to email him again (which I
can understand; a lot of people wouldn't bother reading what they received)
-- he contacts my ISP and complains that I am sending out spam.  For
someone selling a book called Outfoxing the Foxes, you'd think he'd have
more brains than that.

Ross Continues:
(Commenting on: "She wants to fuck someone who is in control, but not
controlling. When you say no to helping her, she will try to make you look
like an asshole, so hold your ground.  No means NO!  (ain't it weird how we
need to treat 'em like CHILDREN??)"):

I agree with what you said about helping and rescuing; I think, however,
these kind of women DO want someone who is controlling. They want a
personal dominator, slave-driver, dictator, and it's just TOO much work.

It's like being El Presidente El Jefe for life of a small, third-world
banana republic, always looking over your shoulder.  No thanks, but fun to
play for a while!

Ross commenting on: "Totally.  Expect alot of 'but I wasn't myself'
bullshit, excuses, and no personal responsibility.  Bandler talks about the
fact that people are dissociated from their own internal processes.  For
alot of people, what goes on in their head is not looked upon as something
they have control over.  He says that whenever he teaches the pattern for
Belief Change, invariably he gets people that say,'You mean you can just
CHANGE a belief?!?'  That's because for these people, in their model of the
world, they have BELIEFS as being part of the environment.  People need to
realize that in order to have a belief, it's something that they must
continue to DO."):

Untold wisdom in that paragraph and lots of power too; go back and re-read
it and print it out and post it on the wall. Dude, are you a member of my
SS list? You ought to be....

Ross Commenting on: "If you never lose your cool around her, it will really
puzzle her because she is used to guys getting all emotional on her, and
it's one of the many ways she can measure her worth."):

That's very true; she's SO associated, the only way to handle it is to be
dis-associated, but then again, that state isn't so fun for me. It works,
but where's the joy in it? It's like driving a Ferrari in first gear all
the time, never exceeding 20MPH. You can do it, but jeez, what a waste of a
good ride.  Now, if only we can manage the acting out so it occurs only in
the sack and in the outside world she remains calm and on the leash....

Ross Commenting on: "You Could you double that feeling and double it again,
make the pictures in your mind bigger, make 'em brighter, now excuse me (as
you say excuse me, grab that picture with your hands, look at it, and tear
it shhhhhhht! and say 'Didn't like that picture, HERE, try this
one...CALM!'  (when you say CALM, go into a state of total calm and bliss,
and put your hand right near her chest).  This pattern is an incredible
mind fuck."):

Good use of spatial anchors, paired with the state changes you want her to
go into! Good stuff, this guy isn't speculating!

Ross Commenting on: "Make fun of it, tease her about it by pretending to go
into a rage and asking her if it makes her feel wanted.  Prescribe the
symptom."):

I like that one; PRETEND the response she wants you to have, then step
right out of it and let her know it was all a PSYCH.  It shows her you CAN
provide what she thinks she wants and needs, so she can't eliminate you for
"flunking" but is that where she REALLY wants to go?

The other day, I was pretty pissed at this chick for a long line of
infractions she had SLOWLY snuck in on me.  So I called her voice mail and
left a message, FAKING being angry saying, "Your clothes are all in the
dumpster and I put your massage table in the street, so you better fucking
come get it before someone steals it.  PSYCH! PSYCH!  Now, why don't you
come over and let's talk calmly about respecting my space better?"  She
called me back immediately, we chatted, she cleaned things up.

Ross Commenting on: "'You deserve better than me'  (because I'm stupid and
there's nothing I can do about it!)  This is a sign, she's trying to tell
you that 'you're not my type'."):

Yes, she's saying "I'm not living up to what you want and I'm not willing
to bother attempting to!"

Ross Commenting on: "And this is where most guys will crash and burn.  But
not you!! See this as a test, and once you pass it, you're gonna get your
share, and then some!  Try this wickedly evil pattern, preferably on the
phone, because it's kind of long to memorize, and you need to nail her
right between the ideas right away...She has no sense of personal
responsibility!  JEEEEZ!  OHHHH, the guilt!"):

Yes, exactly, and THAT is the core of her disturbance. Things just "happen"
to her or she just "does things" without choosing them. She'll be fucked up
until and unless she tackles that, but don't hold your breath.

This is why these girls are too much fucking work. I don't want to pick-up
after someone else's dog's crap and I don't want to pick up after a woman's
dumping her lack of control craps all over the curbs of life.

Ross Commenting on: "You're right I don't give a straight answer, but my
intent is to engage
her imagination. That's the difference."):

That's the point; do you not give a straight answer to frustrate and stay
in control or do you do it to spark the imagination and make them wonder?

Displays of control and dominance have some real use and value; but please,
I wish you guys would get the point, as Vinnegar does, and stop making it
the core of what you do. It will make you inflexible and a dick-head, and
is that really what works or what you need or want to do/be?

Ross Commenting on: "So my INTENT is to engage her imagination, not evade
her questions or not give her a straight answer. Although, yes, it isn't a
straight answer, but it' the intent that makes the difference."):

See, that is being INTELLIGENT about it, versus a blanket behavior rule
like "Never give a straight answer unless it is no".  The intent of
engaging the imagination chunks you up to MUCH greater flexibility and
choice, so not answering straight is just one of MANY responses you can have.

Thanks Vin for clearing this up....Sarge on!

Ross Commenting on: " "That is fine but I would like to have a passionate love
affair with you behind your husband's back.""):

It's a mistake to make her EXPLICITLY have to choose between her primary
relationship and a fling with you.  The whole thing about "behind your
husband's back"...geez.

You set up a nasty bind for her, and her flaky behavior, one step forward
and two steps back, reflects it. Dude, there were other ways to finesse her
into it...

Ross Commenting on: "It's obvious that you've tried to manipulate me and
the situation to
achieve maximum attention from me without having to reciprocate to my
interests in you. Unfortunately, I won't play this game."):

I think maybe she was genuinely conflicted between wanting to get with you
AND staying loyal and true to her marriage. The way you framed it made it
HARDER for her, not easier!

Ross Commenting on: ("It's funny how a married women can be driven to this
level of
desperation and passions simply by telling her "I want you and I would like
to have a passionate love affair with you behind your husband's back."  I
wonder how powerful this can be when used on single women or ones with
boyfriends. I can't wait to test it out on other unsuspecting victims. Any
comments?"):

I think you did a fucked up thing....you could have framed it as an
indulgence in a special place where the ordinary rules and roles don't
apply, so she could have done it and still been ok with her marriage. YOU
fucked this one up.

Ross Commenting on: ("Ronnie...To Ross: My question is this, when should a
person choose the direct nonNLP route or when should they choose the SS
type route?"):

Look at the person in front of you and evaluate them.....how much
persuading do they need?

If you already happen to be "their type" and they are horny as all fuck,
then just be direct. Otherwise, you may have to do a little SSing to get
them to see you in a different way.

Watch out for either/or answers. Usually, the best approach is to turn the
"or" into an "and".

Ross Commenting on: ("I have read much of the advice given here, and
although good, it tends to confuse me more on what style to model,
especially the direct vs. SS mode.  On the other hand, the direct model is
nice because it is so simple, in other words it is short and sweet."):

Well, a kite is simpler than a 747, but I would want to take a kite on a
flight across the Atlantic....

Ross Commenting on: ("One thing he would do would be to briefly but
intensely stare at a woman who may be across the room.  Then he would look
away ('do a take away' if you will) and continue with whomever he was
talking with.  Then he would look back at that woman again with his stare.
Evidently, this had a very mesmerizing effect on the woman in
question.  Usually she would then come up to Rasputin and he would give her
some intriguing bits of info and later seduce her."):

It's called "fractionating". Get on the Marknosis list and ask about it..

My Comment:  I don't have the info on subscribing to the Marknosis list,
but if you email to Cassi at cas***i@ix***.com[ ? ] I assume she'll be able to
help you.

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Lonesomecat:
(Commenting on Stephane's answer to Message from NamelessGuy "But I love
how you showed her that you can generate an audience too, with your SOCIAL
skills, not your TITS!  You really have to work constantly  at keeping
these perfect 10 women in line, which is why I choose not to  deal
with them.  Too high maintenance for me!"):

Come on !! Was she talking or just pulling out her tits??? Women are not a
pair of tits, etc.  I have seen women attracting an audience, and since
they (as anyone leading a show!!!) are into leading the show, one is paying
more attention to the look. But it is not always tits or esthetics related.
It is the whole persona.

Lonesomecat commenting on comments to Descartes' point of view:
I was thinking the same way at 20 than at 30 - and I did not change much. Oh,
yes, but for one thing  I became less naive, and I eventually start to be very
cynical... about men and what they mean, what they really mean.

Lonesomecat commenting:  I like the part on prescribing the symptoms
(Bateson and Watzlavick...) but was it so important to use it in such a
small issue!!! She was
hesitant, because of her hubbie. Since WHEN is indecision a way of
manipulating??????
This is new to me. I am learning. You don't accept any double thought in your
NLP-SS sarges ? Then I would say that you are like our society  too much:
efficiency oriented, and it sounds like the Olympics. You want fast results,
it has to be cost effective. Or else, you use functional, warlike methods.

Lonesomecat with a few more comments on regarding personality types.... You
even
used some coming from psychiatry... and of course, you go on suggesting
your usual
methods, as if they were WILLINGLY using certain manipulations. You
do not have to belong to psychiatrical background to be a ''willing""
manipulator. I have some news for you  I have a history of attracting schizoide
personalities, including some real schizophrenes - and I did not go to a web
site for Quick Getting Rid Of (which should be a new site to be created...) -
no, I went to a psychiatrist to check if my intuitions where right and how
to handle the situation, in a humane and SAFE way.  I listen, I do not
manipulate
them OUT.... because with schizophrenia, it can be dangerous if they are not
taking their medications. Yet, yes, I still have a tendency to attract
obsessive types - and again, I
am dealing with the situations, rather than looking for an exit, and at least
when there is some kind of closeness, as friends or lovers. I take charge for
that occurrence, I endorse it, analyze it, and hopefully, it will disappear
with time (my accepting obsessive types getting close to me).

But, if one spends more time on personality's typology (which can include the
morphological analysis), then one realizes sooner or later that one is for
sure living in a desert.... Everybody can be classified!!!  So, your
techniques and methods could be just an exercise.... there will always be
disappointment...and fear of being manipulated.

No, I am not mad, I just happen to be fed up with the lack of compassion
expressed in these adult games. I have no other words for it now. But
great, at least anyone will have learned great technics and methods. Then ?
Is life a set of technics and methods ? What about more? Depth?? Maybe
there is a hidden fear of depth. Well, I guess I will stop for now. By the
way, I am just high on Bach's music, nothing else involved in my expressing
my point of view. No borderline personality (I checked with my doctor,
because one could be suspected of too many things when one is thinking
differently.)
No. More than this  I was born epileptic, thanks to a competition between a
midwife and a Dr.. But I am extremely lucky, since I am a functional one; 20
years in control, driver's license, etc. But I have tasted all kinds of
social prejudices, including with boyfriends and an ex-husband and in other
social
contexts, including jobs. So, my reactions may come from it.
It is the first time I share it in a group and online, thanks to my
pseudonym. I
decided to add this, because you guys seem to have it much too easy trying
to avoid problems with women or to fully succeed in your sarges.
And it is done without acknowledging the fact that you can do it, because of
random destiny (whereas for those 3 or 4 seconds, or maybe more, that I
nearly suffocated at birth, is why I have a totally different perspective
on life than you do, but
it does not mean I want to avoid success.

And I want no pity for this ''adds on"", I am personally not into pity.  I
just hope you will open your approach to women...

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Stephane:
SS is very controversial, and I usually gravitate towards
controversial subjects.  Alot of men like SS, some don't.  And I
still haven't met a woman that likes it, although I'm sure that
there's some cool women out there who like SS. (Let's talk! )

I would LOVE to meet a woman out there capable of running SS patterns
on me!  If a woman could talk to ME like that, I'd definitely be able
to overlook her fat ass or whatever physical flaws she had (within
reason!).  But I haven't yet met a woman capable of running any kind
of hypnotic language pattern or suggestive languaging or sensory-rich
descriptions on me, and that SUCKS!  Alot of women are more than
capable of playing very sophisticated head games, including playing
with a man's insecurities, cock-teasing, etc, etc.

When I was younger, I thought that the best way to find out what
women wanted was to hang out with them, create rapport, and ask them
what they want (in a man).

Alot of men also believe this, and I'm here to tell you it's WRONG.
Especially with the young one's!  Because they will tell you what it
is that they SHOULD want, what they're SUPPOSED to want.  It is a
rare woman indeed who is strong enough to be VULNERABLE enough to
tell you what she REALLY wants in a man.  And, sadly, most of them
don't even really know.

I recently met 2 women who were into NLP.  They both SAID that they
hated SS, and that it would never work on them.  So I ran a couple of
very basic connection patterns on them, and a variation of the
blowjob pattern, mixed in with a little teasing and ball-busting.
Now, one woman was "happily married" and the other had a boyfriend
that she lived with.

They threw themselves at me.  I rest my case.

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Ethereal:
I was following Mark's posts up until the following point:
("Mark Comments on
"Billy 5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on his leg.  All
he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a bit, you wanna come?".  Her
response "Only if you take me somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't
all that important, then why do I see this guy, in particular, get laid
only on the basis of his looks??"

I keep telling you looks do matter. Would you fuck Rosie O'Donnell,
Roseanne Arnold or Janet Reno if she used NLP, modeling, language
patterns, angel dust or hemorrhoid nasal spray on you?  This past week I
have been experimenting with a slightly different diet approach. My
muscles look fuller and bigger than in a long time and I look leaner and
tighter all around. As a result of this I've had about 8 women approach
me within the last three days. One of them is a stripper who wants me to
be her personal trainer. She even offered to pay for the sessions.

 From experience I believe that we all have things served to us on a
platter and it's up to us to take what we feel belongs to us. Society
has conditioned us to think that we need to work first to acquire things
and that is true but sometimes we over do it and miss taking advantage
of the opportunity that presents itself.

--->It's my belief that when a woman sees a man and they exchange a few
words she has made up her mind as to whether or not she has physical
attraction for the guy within the first 60 seconds. It is at that point that
the man needs to take action and let her know that he feels attraction
for her as well. If he does not tell her of his attraction for her, then
she will think he is not interested and feel rejected. If he does and
she also feels attraction, then they can move forward to a date, sex or
some other form of mutual expression of attraction. If she feels
attraction for him but he continues to try and win it over not realizing
that she likes him already, then he sends out a signal that he is not
worthy of her. She picks up on this and he lowers his value in her eyes.
We do this by using techniques, methods, channelling, modelling,
mirroring, back flipping thinking they will turn an uninterested woman
into an interested one.

Here is the error - thinking initially that she will not be interested
and having to work to get her interest. If you go into a situation where
you think she is not interested you will act this way and turn her off
no matter what technique you use.

I believe it's preferred to indicate your interest in woman right away
to see how she feels. If she in not interested no matter what you do
(and I've been there before) you will not succeed. I have spoken to many
guys and they
claim to start off well, but hold back only to crash and burn. The best
just go for it right away because they either are interested or they are
not; there is no sense in wasting time."):


My response to the above starting at the ---> notation:  I follow you
completely re: a woman's sizing up a man up to the point where you note
"it is at that point that the man needs to take action...  If he does
not tell her of his attraction for her, then she will think he is not
interested and feel rejected."  I have found this, in my own experience,
is not the case at all.  It is my belief that women love to chase men, despite
the man's lack of affirmation of his attraction to her.

Just to take looks out of this equation, I have similar stats to this
guy:  23 years old, 6'0", 205 lbs., 4% bodyfat, etc.  They can be an asset
AND a
detriment (to the kind of woman *I want*), for me, but that's besides
the point.  I personally, am not attracted to a woman before I know her,
as simple as that.  I'm also not attracted to a woman unless she
displays initiative.  I do not see a woman and then instantly decide
that I want to take things forward with her, I simply note her outward
attractiveness and if I feel like it then test her as to whether or not
I'd wish to proceed any further inward.  When a girl says to me, having
just met, "...only if you take me somewhere and fuck me" I'll more often
than not respond "why don't you fuck off instead."  My apathy can be
scary at times, but I run with it anyway  It helped me realize that
most of the time, I need to know more than a mere glance would provide
before I decide a woman should have the opportunity to pursue sexual
relations with me.  So for me, in that situation, there would be no
congruence in my approaching a woman and declaring my attraction to her,
and wishing to continue things in a 1-on-1 context.  I don't even know
her!  And maybe I'd prefer to hang out with my friends and work HB's at
the same time, and now, instead of wasting a night with only one random HB
in the future.  I want more from a woman than such a brief encounter, as
Mark describes, would be able to tell me.

What about when I do know?  Most of my encounters with women involve
their initiating the sexual or "interest" contact, not my own.  That's
for them to earn, not for me to dish out.  I do initiate our meeting,
but not sexual overtures.  If I have to hold her hand through
everything, spell everything out, then she's not the kind of woman I
want.  When I do know her adequately (qualify her), such a declaration
of sentiment is her job, not mine - I already initiated things.  (I
don't care if she does it verbally either.)  So basically, most of the
time, just about all to be honest, I do not state my attraction to a
woman.  Although, admittedly, I may imply it with my non-verbal
behavior, holding glances, sizing up, etc.  This isn't a strategy, and I
don't purposefully hold back  I'm not a talkative person, and I'll have
no problems implying my attraction as per above, or with physical
closes, but I'll never verbally acknowledge such.  I see no point, it's
implied by my actions of initiating contact, fucking, etc.
Why waste your breath, it's better saved for the lower extremities.

What's it like when...?  Perhaps I'll test a girl, decide she fails (not
intelligent enough, not confident enough, not sexual enough, etc.), or
decide that even if she does qualify, I don't have enough time, don't
feel like it tonight, feel like just hanging out with my friends, or am
not in the proper context for a sexual relationship (i.e. work).  So I
have lots of female friends this way, and often enough one of them will
jump out and decide she wants to take things to the next step.  That's
how a lot of women make it into my inner circle.  I don't have to worry
about flakes this way either, they're earning it!  I'm not trying to
brag, but recently I quit my job in Boston and had 3 women suddenly
re-interpret my "no sexual relationships with co-workers" exception
(that any of my friends know) to no longer be true, and they were doing
the work; I had never expressed any interest in them.  Somehow, a
possible interpretation of rejection on my part based on what I verbally
didn't do, didn't hold them back.  And this happens in the bar scene as
well, I'll meet an HB, decide I just don't feel like doing anything for
whatever reason, or that it's her job, and all of a suddenly she'll do
ALL the work.

And as for everyone's response to this:
> Mark
> Comments on
> "Billy 5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on
> his leg.  All he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a
> bit, you wanna come?".  Her response "Only if you take me
> somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't all that important,
> then why do I see this guy, in particular, get laid only on
> the basis of his looks??"

There is a lot missing from the picture here.  It's interesting that
everyone defaults to the "looks" explanation.  So that's what was said,
but it's not all that happened  I'm sure there was a ton of non-verbal
communication going on there (perhaps a sly glance on the woman's part,
another on the man's part, then a powerfully locked gaze on both's part
- full of desire and intrigue, then a leading look to the exit on the
man's part, etc.) that you wrongfully distilled out by assuming the
seduction was based on verbal communication alone.
That seduction could have had absolutely nothing to do with looks, even
if nothing was said.

More Comments on Looks:
It seems some here on this list are so fixated on the looks criteria in
their search for women that they then make the assumption that it works
both ways that a man who has looks can simply walk away with whomever
he wants (any good looking woman), only because the problem of what is
"usually" a man's initial deficit in the seduction (looks) is taken
away...

All of this seems to be a manifestation of the limiting belief that
seduction is just an economic transaction; in which you're only entitled
to that which you already have, that you're supposed to find some sort
of female clone of yourself, and doing any "better" is "getting ahead"
or some sort of injustice when examined the other way (i.e. - fat guy with
hot woman).  Overall, that there's supposed to be some sort of logic or
justification for seduction.  This mentality can be real if you so
choose i.e., that a man seduces a woman because he desires her looks, she
his confidence, money, etc. all to some sort of equal transaction in
which they both maximize their profits.  This on a smaller level you
have to have money to seduce a lot of women, you have to be famous,
good-looking, etc. and if you have one of the above traits you're much
better off in the deal, etc.
I choose to believe otherwise.  I believe a seduction is a creation, not
some sort of exchange/profit-sharing device, so none of this economic
bullshit applies (except for maybe the portions I could pretend to serve
me).  Such economic beliefs limit your understanding (so and so got so
and so simply because he had this; there is nothing I could learn from),
self-worth and self-entitlement, so why bother continuing with them?  I
don't see the need to justify my desires with any system.

My "looks" in fact are a detriment in the sense that the concept of
physiognomy, aka looks dictating behavior/intelligence, is still
maintained by many women.  I'm assumed to be unintelligent/arrogant and
the muscles only contribute more.  The wrong ones want in, etc.  The
only way my looks are an asset is when an intelligent woman can realize
that it's perfectly normal for me to appear one way and act another.

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Philip (New Zealand):
Here my recent experience with the Female Interruption Mechanism (her last
minute objection) and how I got around it on this occasion. It also
includes some other interesting experiences from the night, such as the
value of a special type of "wing-girl".

On a recent Saturday night I met a woman (30) in a bar in Auckland, New
Zealand. We met around midnight, good connection, and were flirting with
each other. She was up from Wellington on holiday, out in the big city with
2 other girls, and enjoying the freedom that brings. I let her know that I
was only visiting this city, too (which was true; I'm 33). Over a period of
an hour or so I kept taking away by spreading my attention around them all,
as well as occasionally others and also the friends I was with. The taking
away was working brilliantly, as soon she was buying me drinks to keep me
close, and (thinking of Cliff's theory) I was thinking it was a matter of
not fucking up and I'd have her!

That night I was out with friends of my own and also my sister (who was
dressed stunningly). Throughout that night (at a party and at the bars we
went to) whenever I introduced myself to women I would also introduce my
sister to them, but not specify our relationship (we are both single, and
are supporting each other in meeting new friends). Then, after a minute or
two of combined conversation I would mention she was my sister and watch
for the reaction, and utilize what I got. It was always very positive, most
often statements like "Wow, what a great guy to be hanging out with your
sister on a Saturday night, you both must share a great relationship." I'd
reply with something like "Thanks, yes we do. You know, my sister recently
broke up with a boyfriend of 3 years (happens to be true, doesn't matter if
it isn't as long as your sister/friend is going along with it), so she is
enjoying getting out and about again. One thing she is noticing is that
it's hard to meet the really great guys (self-point; reinforce what was
their exact own observation of you!)." In hindsight, this can be strengthened
with something like "She's finding that when you are lucky enough to come
across one, it's really worth it to just go for it and get to know them,
because this (s.p.) is such a rare opportunity," etc. (at this point seek
vocal reinforcement from your sister/friend). So, guys, if you have a spare
sibling (or a female friend who will pose as your sister) you can support
each other in this way when you go out. My sister and I have worked this
approach with and for each other on a couple of nights so far, and we'll be
playing with it again this weekend.

Ok, back to my experience After an hour or so things are really heating up
between me and this HB (a 7.5 + a bubbly smile), and soon after that we are
kissing on the dance floor and she is getting totally turned on, and then
she says "I know what you want, but I just have to tell you it's so not
going to happen tonight. I'm really sorry, I'd really love it to, but it
isn't going to happen."

And so I'm thinking to myself "What the fuck??? This is the chick who has
undone all the buttons on my shirt on the dance floor and is rubbing her
hands on my chest through my t-shirt, and by all appearances and actions is
feeling even hornier than I am, and now she's telling me she wants to have
sex with me but its not going to happen tonight? Which means that it isn't
ever going to happen as she is only in town for a weekend."

So I simply ask her to tell me more about what she talking about (with a
smile) and she says "I really want you, I want you like you wouldn't
believe, but it's totally the wrong time of the month, I am so sorry."

So now I am thinking "Female Interruption Mechanism" - I had sailed deep
into Last Minute Objection Land. I remembered Ross' advice that you do not
overcome her uncertainty by being uncertain yourself, and knowing that she
was feeling very horny I went in for the close, structuring my response
based on what she was expressing (which turned out to really be about
include needing to give permission to herself to have casual sex with a
stranger - not that I thought to deal with it in the moment directly on
that level).

Here is exactly what I said into her ear (over the music), as well as I can
remember, while unbundling my arms from around her and just lightly stroking
her sides while leaning in "Ahh hah.....and so if I was to say to you that
*that* didn't matter to me.....that I can just slip a condom on.....and
I'm going to fuck you.....so hard."

Here's the breakdown Basically, I paced her reality with the affirmative
"Ah hah" then softened the next bit with "....what if I were to say to
you...." to open her up to possibilities, guiding her to consider the next
thing I said as just an idea to toss around.

Then I told her that that didn't matter to me that she was having her period
(which is true to the extent that I will have sex at that time of the month
although I tend not to look down on these occasions, and I definitely won't
go down there orally). I also know that for many of women, if they can get
past any mental objections they may have, that having sex during their
period can feel very good indeed and often reduce period pain for
hours/days afterwards.

Next, I negated any possible objection about safe sex by talking about
condoms AND I put this into the present tense. Aside when discussing this
with a friend today he said he likes to talk to women about "having 'Safe
Sex' with him" because the phrase has several positive implications.

And finally I capitalized on her horniness, telling her exactly what I was
going to do (also I put this in the present tense...i.e. implying that it
was going to happen). She had said she really wanted me, so I was telling
her she was going to get incredibly hot and exciting sex! Yes, this was the
most risking part of the sarge - saying "I'm going to fuck you hard" can
scare a woman (yes, I have had this backfire on me big time in the past,
always with younger girls) - but I felt this was a situation when it would
be the best way to overcome this woman's resistance.

Then I kissed her again. This was all it took! Moments later we were out
the side door of the bar into the alley where we kissed some more, then I
had to go back in to get a key to the house where I was staying at from a
friend. When I came out she was standing by the opposite alley wall. She
started to ask if I got the key, looked her in the eye and said nothing,
walked straight up to her rapidly and I just kissed her hard on the mouth
and pushed her against the wall (firmly, but not violently) and she
responded with incredible excitement. This was by me deliberately - I wanted
to reinforce my sexual excitement for her in her mind, and she broke my
kiss and blurted out "I want you to fuck me so hard" and *knew* I was in
for a good time!!! She told me later in bed that she would have fucked me
there and then in that alley had it of been more private, and would have
gone in and done it in the bar's bathroom or around the back of the
building if I had of suggested either! We grabbed a taxi, went back to
where I was staying, and had a most excellent adventure!

And here's the most interesting point of all once we were in bed I was
soon to discover that she wasn't having her period at all!

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Adam:
I am thinking of writing a short, download-able book on

"How To Use The Secrets of a Professional Dog Trainer To
Influence, Persuade & Re-train The Woman In Your Life."

If there is enough interest, the book will be made available free, on the
honor system.  If you read it and like it, then you can return to the site
and pay for it.

Writing this will help me organize some of the more profound observations
and experiments I've been playing around with and their effects on several
of the women in my life over the past couple of years.

If anyone on the list would like to read it, send me an e-mail at
ada***m@br***.com[ ? ] (Put the subject header of the e-mail Cliff's list).

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