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"I married the wrong person"

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I married the wrong person
8/11/01 2:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time


To all Lounge applicants  PLEASE attach a self pic to
your emails to me ([XXREMOVEDXX]) when you request access to
Mystery's Lounge ,
along with a bit of info about yourself (what state
you live in, how successful with women you actually
are, etc.).  I am trying to keep OUT the people who
just join out of curiosity and want to jack off to the
other guy's pix : )


Here in Montreal, once a week we have the privilege of reading the totally
useless dating advice of "Dating Girl" Josey Vogels in the daily newspaper,
The Montreal Gazette.  She also writes a sex column called "My Messy
Bedroom" for one of the free weekly tabloids (either the Hour or the
Mirror, I can't remember which one she writes for).  In any event, in her
column this last Monday she has this guy write in for advice after he
finally got a date with a woman who kept stalling him.  On the date, she
insisted they go to this certain bar where she flirted with the bartender
the whole time.  He wanted to know what was going on!?  She responded with
a few comments which I thought we would all recognize as the reality of the
dating scene (which have nothing to do with her advice, which is pretty
much always useless from a real practical point of view).  Among her
comments were:
"...This girl is not interested in you and either doesn't have the nerve to
tell you or is toying with you.  Maybe she gets off on the attention.  We
can be screwed up that way."  And "This kind of 'come here, go away'
behaviour used to suck me right in and I'd get all into convincing them I
was the one that could make it work, or I'd just get so into the thrill of
the chase."  And in advice on some other question she says "I'm a master of
creating conflict, creating tests to see if the person is up to the
challenge."  If she would only read her own words and see what women are
really like, she might come up with some suggestions that would have some


Do you LOVE NEW YORK CITY WOMEN, but are intimidated
and cant seem to have any success?

Tired of trying to pick up gorgeous women in NYC alone?

I have a small, but growing army of seduction Jedi's
here in NYC and our members range from VERY
distinguished and advanced, to two weeks ago.

We have had guest speakers such as ROSS JEFFRIES,
the guru of seduction himself, at our NYCTSF meetings
and not only did he have a great time, Ross said HE
learned a lot from US that was "pure gold"!

Our next official "roundtable" meeting is on Sunday,
August 19, 2001 @ 3pm. Why not jump in?

I must warn you though, my group is ACTION ORIENTED
and does not tolerate passive members! Are you

Join the game here: NYC***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]


> Cramias
> Just wanted to let you know that I HAVE been receiving your emails, but
> they end up in my "junk mail/bulk mail" folder in hotmail.  I've tried a
> number of ways to correct this problem, including sending a email to MSN,
> but I've been unable to fix it, so I have to open my bulk mail folder every
> few days to check if one of your newsletters is in it.  So I'm thinking
> maybe the reason some people aren't receiving their newsletters is because
> they are sent out in bulk, and the bots interpret this as spam and block
> them. As opposed to size limitations as you mention above.

Hotmail has a choice under options there are 3 columns, the middle one,
"Mail Handling" is the one you want ("your information and Additional
options are the other two").  In this column there is a link called "mailing
lists".  Click the hyper link and add cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] to the list of
addresses you want to always let mail through to (it's the only list there).
This will work as long as cliff still sends a copy of the mail to himself.


Nailing women under 25 (when you are 10 years + older)

                              Some cues

1. Get yourself in a VERY playful, let's go fuck with 'em mind set. Invoke
Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, etc.

2. Get an approach that allows you to present yourself as someone with
mystical knowledge, special abilities, someone who can teach them something
VERY valuable about themselves.

3. Comment/observe/question, rather than compliment. Comment/observe on their
energy, how they carry themselves....

4. Give them a compelling reason to want to talk with you then and there or
meet later and make sure you make it clear your time is scarce.

5. Fractionate the crap out of them and make sure they ratify they are

6. Make sure you connect the dots for them and get ready to do ALL the work.
Younger women will seldom call you in the beginning, even if they DO like
you!  Most of them in the beginning won't even call guys THEIR OWN AGE.

7. Test early to see how open they are to physical touch; non-sexual at
first.  Run from the ones who don't strongly and positively enjoy it. You
want a highly suggestible, very sexual young lady.

8. Incorporate challenges to her; does she have her own mind or does she need
to do what her friends tell her she should?

9. Be EXTREMELY careful about what you do with them over the phone, PRIOR to
banging them. You can phone sarge like nuts ONCE you've nailed them, but
younger ones WILL get scared and run if you phone sarge them too much BEFORE
you nail them.

10. Be calmly ready for flakiness, both as a test of you and also, because
they are just flaky with EVERYONE, even their female friends!  Young women
often have very turmoil-filled lives, and often it is NOT about you. If/when
they flake/don't show up, just calmly point out that you don't know whether
they are letting hesitation or something in their environment interrupt
their own opportunities, but you THOUGHT they were stronger than that..oh
well...maybe see you around.

11. Never, NEVER ask the younger ones out "on a date". You shouldn't be doing
this anyway with any age group, but young ones...asking them to dinner,
etc...NO NO NO!   Offer to meet them somewhere, hang out a bit so you can
show them this cool thing they must them for coffee, use Riker's
methods for getting them to your place FIRST before you go somewhere else,
but NEVER ask them to dinner or do "dating" things.

12. Once you are ready to close physically, be strong and unhesitant about
it.  Show her you are in the lead and in control. And for God's sake, once
you get her alone and can close the deal, DO it. If you let her slide that
first time, after say only eating her out or getting a BJ, don't assume you
will ever see her again!  Her old programming WILL assert itself!

                                                  BIG POINT

I want to emphasize this for all guys reading; MUCH of young women's
flakiness is about simply being out of control of their lives, and they don't
get that this isn't a good way to do things, or they just don't have the
means to get more in control Why should they? There's always another offer
just around the corner, especially when they are hot. Hell, when they are
hot,  someone is always willing to buy them, rescue them, etc. so why SHOULD
they have to learn a better way?

Most of them who are flaky are just scattered, not testing, cunty, mean or
evil. They have bad organization strategies, poor time-management, poor
self-discipline (except when it comes to putting on their make-up), families
out of control. Trust me...I know this.

Now, SOME are testing, cunty, evil and mean, but really what it is is an
irresponsible use of the power their beauty gives them. They are angry at
Dad, Mom, the world and using the power to take it out on others. Angry at
getting so much attention but STILL being unhappy. Angry at early child-hood
abuse.  Angry at lots of things.

Avoid these girls like the plague...if there is a deep anger under the
beauty (not initial caution or fear, but ANGER) then run like hell! RUN RUN
RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN!  Only a guy who is more unhappy and ANGRIER than
they are will really serve their twisted needs. Don't make yourself that way
for the "prize" that is really a punishment.

Now...most of the other testing behavior is just hesitation; uncertainty
about stepping into something they find unfamiliar.  And hesitation about
doling out what little spare time they have to what may not be something they
really like or enjoy; after all, it is unfamiliar to them, yes? I took a big
step forward when I finally realized this and incorporated it into every bit
of my approach with them. So you have to give them a taste, have them imagine
having MORE, and make it compelling and scarce.

An analogy to help  You are a very busy traveller. You fly out of town
twice a week, have lots to pull at your attention. Whenever you fly a major
city, you always eat at a fabulous Steak house that has restaurants in most
cities you go to.

Pretty good service, though occasionally you get bored and want something
else. But you know all the staff, feel at home.

While on the flight, someone sitting next to you mentions they have a
restaurant in the town you are going to. It's a little out of the way from
your hotel, a different kind of food than what you are used to...he gives
you a card and invites you to come in.

What are the odds you will actually go? Hmm?

Now, suppose we change things a bit. Instead of just inviting you with a
card, as you are staring at your airplane food you notice he doesn't have a
meal. He notices you noticing and says, "Hmm.." He picks up your tray and
says, "Put this aside a moment". Then gets out of his seat, reaches to the
overhead bin, and pulls out a tupper-ware container.

He opens it up, and the scent of something steaming hot and delicious
assaults your nostrils....

It's an incredible dish...exotic and inviting...instead of putting the whole
thing down in front of you, he puts it down in front of him,  and says, "This
is from our restaurant"...

He dishes out his food in front of him, sets a little bowl in front of you,
and spoons some into it for you. He tells you not to rush...and the first few
bites are just heaven.

Now, he says, "Normally, on a weekend like this, we're booked up by
Wednesday, but
do come in and present this card...ask for me, and I will personally seat you
at your own table, right by the window...if you'd like to bring a guest or
two, just call and use my name, and let us know in advance. Saturday, we
have a
very special menu I know you're going to like.  Since I know the restaurant
is a bit far from your hotel, I know a limo service that actually costs the
same as a when you call for your reservation, just let me know what
time to have them pick you up and we'll take care of that too!"

Now...which is more likely to get you to come in?  The guy took the lead,
took away what you are used to, teased you with a taste, had you imagine
coming in and having the greatest time, and NEVER asked you to come in once,
did he? He just assumed it in a way that made you hungry for more, because
he'd already given you a small taste!


Major Differences

If the women you want are under 25

*Use observation/compliment/questions instead of direct approaches/pickups

*Offer to show them something of perceived high-value and present yourself as
scarce. Try to give them a small taste, right at the initial meeting.

*CAUTION when phone sarging young ones BEFORE YOU HAVE NAILED THEM

*Don't expect them to do ANY of the work; they usually will not, even when
they are sincere in the moment they promise to! It's just too out of the
ordinary for them.

*Challenge her to prove she is adventurous, has her own mind, doesn't need
approval, is strong enough to see and grasp an opportunity.

*With the ones over 25, generally you CAN do some more phone sarging,
expect them to do some of the work, do less dot connection, etc. etc. etc.


More on the Looks vs. Language issue

A couple of weeks ago, I was at lunch with some students in NYC. One of
the students, is a VERY good looking guy, loaded with cash as well, and he
has ALWAYS been great at getting women! He's pretty ballsy, forward, direct,
with a good sense of humor.

We were talking about how he gets tons of women on AOL; they love his
picture and often IM him based on browsing his on-line ad. At lunch, I was
sarging the crap out of the waitress, doing great, but I mentioned to him
that, if she saw my pic on AOL, before actually talking to me, she'd never
want to meet me (which is true; I've gotten laid on AOL a grand total of once.
They LOVE my profile, but once they see the pic...forget it).

He drew a good analogy. He said, "If the waitress said, "Would you like
some dessert?" you might say "yes" or you might say "no." But if she
brought out
the tray and let you smell it, see it, imagine the flavor, you'd probably
order some!"

"**You** need to give a woman a little taste first, and then she'll want to
order more! You need to give a taste of your voice, your energy, your
language, your company, your touch first.  ***I*** usually don't have to do
that. In fact, I came here to learn to use SS for business, not women, and it
is working great for me to make alot more money!"

So, if you don't have the looks, you need to do more with how you frame
things, your energy, language, touch, and yes, ATTITUDE. A ballsy, funny,
"treat 'em like an old friend" attitude  and NOT fucking up too badly is all
a good looking guy needs.

The rest of us, especially we old-farts, need to wheel out the dessert tray
and let them have a little taste...then tell them sorry, we're all out in the
kitchen, but maybe NEXT week...if you want this one on the tray, it's going to
cost double!

Now, anytime a guy gives you advice here about what works for HIM, keep
the looks/age equation in mind and ask if it is all he needs, will it be all
YOU need?

For me, the ballsy stuff has NEVER been enough. And any time it's a
situation where my looks get judged PRIOR to actually meeting me, I almost
always will be eliminated.

More from Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Ross, if I were you I would consider the effectives of other approaches
rather than simply dismissing them as ineffective."):

Believe me, I do consider them. And not just consider them in theory but
based on my own experience and the experiences of guys who are similar
situations to my own.

Mark, with respect, I believe what you post and I believe it works for YOU.
I believe you are also NOT considering the context what your looks allow
you to get away with.

Women are going to look at you and feel an attraction RIGHT AWAY. That's a
huge open-door that many of us don't have.

I really think you are NOT considering how much your looks
enable/potentiate/empower your APPROACH.

If a woman is creaming herself just by virtue of her looking at you, being
direct will get you somewhere.  If she looks at me and doesn't have that
ATTRACTION, then I have to CREATE it BEFORE I get "direct", "indirect" or
any mix or combination.

I've never seen you get this point about what your looks allow you to do.

You could probably also win a bar fight by directly tackling the guy and
taking him to the floor. I couldn't do that either.  Doesn't mean what you
do doesn't work in a fight, just that it would NOT work for me.

My advice is given in the CONTEXT of being aimed at guys who are not gifted
in the "looks" department. I know you ARE gifted, so is Sis, Rick, Mystery,
etc. etc. etc. I'm the only "ugly guy" out there swinging for what works
for us toad-men.

So have a little sympathy for your less fortunate Bros, Bro. And don't
expect us to be able to replicate YOUR results when we ain't packing YOUR
gear.  I can have great aim, but I ain't taking down a bear with a varmint
rifle. Instead, I've got to spring a trap, to use a metaphor.  Or
tranquilize the damn bear and train her to like me.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"I am not making her choose. Obviously if I want to sleep with her then
she will naturally think that it's behind his back. How else? Saying that it
will be behind his back means that she gets to indulge with me but gets to
keep her marriage safe and secure."):

You are missing my point. This is chyck logic.  A woman may well be willing
to HAVE the affair, no problem. But she doesn't want to explicitly AGREE to
the affair and what it implies, she just wants to do it!

You are not just aiming at evoking the behavior, you are ASKING for her
consent; for her to not only take responsibility, but to recognize that she

Doesn't the chyck who says she doesn't fuck on the first date
when she really DOES want to bang you. She just doesn't want the
response-ability explicitly agreeing.

This should be an elementary point to see...

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Did you read the part where she offered to come over to my house and
cook for me? Do you really think that she only thought of coming over to
only cook a meal? To finesse someone into something
in my mind implies some form of manipulation or trickery. My directness
induced her to suggest coming over to my place to "cook" as well as her
incessant calls and begging for forgiveness after I refused to return her
calls and e-mails. How do you explain that?"):

I think you've created confusion AND desire on her part, which to me is a
bad thing.  You are not just saying, "Let's step outside your marriage" you
are also saying, "Do you agree to step outside your marriage?"  Different

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Of course she was conflicted. Wouldn't any married woman
be conflicted no matter how you phrase your intent?"):

No, some are committed but bored, right Major Mark? See "Renegade
Hypnotist's Guide To Banging Married Women"

You made the conflict worse, not better.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"By telling her I wanted an affair she knew where I stood with her. By
telling her that it would be
behind her husband's back she becomes fully aware of all the risks of the

No, you channeled her into a way of viewing it that now prohibits her from
viewing it any other way. You have said, "IF you do this, it means you ARE

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"People are much more likely to take risks when they are aware of
the worst case scenario and in this case she became aware of what that would

Dude, this is so wrong, it's axiomatic and beyond discussing. Totally wrong.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Besides why get lost in the fine detail of the conversation. It's my
intent and how I said it that really matters, not the semantics."):

Ha ha. Totally wrong. Precision counts when persuading. If you don't have
the discipline for it...well, what counts in body building is intent, NOT
doing the movement correctly, or working the right part of the muscle, the
right number of reps, the right diet.  Riiiiight.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Also by making it harder I become a greater challenge where I will not out
up with
her flaky behaviour. I show her that I want it my way and this to her makes
me look like a more of a man."):

No, you just make it harder for her to comply.  Who cares about "looking
like a man"? Get off that shit; what matters is doing what works without
making YOU feel weak.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"I did tell her it would be passionate, special, secret and taboo.
Especially in this case where an affair is the wrong thing to do it makes it
more exciting and enticing. If I made it seem that is was acceptable to her
marriage to indulge the thrill of the affair would have lost its luster."):

Ha ha ha. I think you are underestimating the needs and desires of women.

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"My making it forbidden and taboo makes it more appealing and exciting. I have
slept with a few women with boyfriends and when I asked them why they did it
and how they feel about it they all say that it feels thrilling and taboo
but that makes it more exciting and inviting. After all, why would you have
an affair that is just as boring and mundane as your marriage."):

Yeah, but framing it as cheating and making her agree that that is what it
will be makes it MUCH harder for her to accept IF she has what she
considers to be "integrity".

Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"She keeps calling despite everything and wants to see me for
"something more." I think you need to work a little bit more on your
analysis of extra marital affairs."):

You seem upset; I'm not trying to insult. I think there was an easier way.
But enjoy banging her and enjoy the guilt she throws back at you.

You know, I think you would get less of the flaking and testing that you
have quite admirably trained yourself to handle if you would set it up so
that they are less conflicted about the whole thing.

Ross (Commenting on:
"Isn't this the same guy that was at one of Ross's seminars and says that
he's one of Ross's students? The guy who fucks Houston? Isn't Rick one of
the guys that contributed to Methods and Masters (Speed Seduction»?) I bet
they don't call there own work "faggot shit."):

Exactly. I've been accused of discounting others work, but here not only is
my work being discounted, the very people who are held up as examples by
Sis actually DO use my work and other "faggot shit".

Ross (Commenting on:
I'm an ex-boxer and bodybuilder, weigh 210 lbs. and stand 6'3". Whether it
works or not, I'm not going to act like a cocky Neanderthal because they
have always repelled me. I can almost always kick these guys asses, so it's
laughable to see them strut. In my case, at least, being a seducer is much
more real to me than being a stud. I can't stand those swarmy jock type
What I will NOT do is hide my depth and keep my conversation on a level
that some 19 year old girl who is totally into "cool shoes" will appreciate.

Ross (Commenting on Joseph (Commenting on Sisonpyh):
"When you're talking to an old buddy, you are totally un-self-conscious.
You're cool and laid back. You could give a damn what he's thinking about you.
Now, add a dash of "I'm skeptical about you" to this mix, and you have a
pretty good start for what I'm talking about.
This is a good technique. It's also similar to what is taught as the basics
of SS."):

Yep. Cocky, outrageous, engaging outgoing..I've been teaching it for years.
What are the Unstoppable Confidence Tapes all about? They've been around
since 1994.....

Ross (Commenting on Joseph (Commenting on Sisonpyh)):
"I personally like to practice on EVERY WOMAN I MEET. I work waitresses,
checkers, homeless chicks, whatever. I'm always trying to find new ways to
get a woman to say "Damn, that guy is cool and funny...." and most
importantly to have that INSTANT SPARK OF ATTRACTION."
Yes that compelling click...right you're instantly drawn.
Did you know you could use embedded commands and accurate descriptions to
install this in a woman?"):

Maybe for Sis, it's a matter of the kind of performance he feels he wants
to give.  If he feels the cocky/ballbusting performance is as far as he
wants to or needs to go (remember, he's a VERY good looking guy), I say
more power to him. He's right on about alot of what he said in his last
post. For me, personally, I don't think it would be enough.  I think alot
of Sis' success in recent years is more to do with his getting away from
old, weak/supplicating behavior that blocked his looks from working to
their full advantage. He's trashed those old responses, subbed in better
ones that give off the right signals, and so he doesn't have to say much or
use language.

I wish I had his face for a couple of weeks. I don't....oh well...

Ross (Commenting on Joseph (Commenting on Sisonpyh):
"But I also think that it's not pro-active enough and that only a certain
type of woman will bite. With seduction, you can change strategy to nab the
particular desired fish. Like with a spear gun. Attraction is more like
sitting on a dock with a fishing pole waiting for a nibble. If you're
bottom fishing, you're only going to catch bottom dwellers, and not
necessarily the type of trout or catfish you want. I like hunting better
than fishing."):

Spot on...Sis is packing a bear-rifle, by the virtue of his good looks.
(Mark, who posts here, from the sound of it has a bazooka!)

I can't take down a bear with my varmint gun my looks). I need some good
traps or some tranquilizer darts so I can train the bear...


(Commenting on Gonesavage: "I don't have women throwing themselves at me,
but I've had success getting a targeted woman to THINK that I do.   I do it
humorously and not in a conceited way.  It keeps her on her toes, "is this
guy for real?"  For example, I jokingly talk about my stint as a model or a
gigolo or whatever."):

Dude, I am loving this post!  My "edge" if you will, is that I love to talk
about RELATIONSHIPS as soon as I can.  I have read dozens and dozens of
books on relationships, so I feel very comfortable talking about it, and
more than a little superior.  I talk about "this book I'm reading", or
"this stupid girlfriend I had" or "this amazing girlfriend I had".  Of
course, "this client I had (therapy)" is my favorite because it allows me
to really talk about anything.  You've just expanded my ability to LIE
CREATIVELY, and for this...I owe you one, buddy!  I just don't know why I
didn't think of it before...Oh, I know!  I had morals! : )


King Arthur:
(Responding to GoneSavage (Commenting on Ethereal):
>I think a lot is to be said to recognize and disclose your attraction for
>her, but set yourself up as a CHALLENGE.  Sort of a "I like you...I'm
>interested in you...BUT."  I make the BUT loud and clear. This hasn't been
>emphasized lately.)

I agree completely with this ... and it is something that has been puzzling
me. How do you initiate an exchange, and yet pull-back simultaneously, that
is walkup (suggesting interest) while retaining your frame of "well I might
sleep with you, but not necessarily...only if I deem you worthy.  Any good
suggestions? Sometimes I manage it sometimes I don't.


Got the penis enlargement pills ( after
reading about it
on your list.

Been taking then for two weeks after which the first results are promised.
Results: none observable for me. The catch: the instructions that come
with the pills specify the 'Arabian?' penis massage for 10 minutes
a day. That, of course, would do it all by itself. Unfortunately, I'm
too lazy and too impatient to do this for 10 minutes in a row. The
consoling news (in the piece of paper that comes with the pills) is
that the average penis length is 6 inches. I guess I'll have to stick
with the average, hmmm.  In any case, it's quite sneaky, too, how
they do the shipping. 29$ for the 'first' shipment and then automatically
another shipment every 4 weeks or so. I haven't asked for that at
all. Didn't cancel yet as the pills, besides a bad feeling in the stomach
for some time, appear to give me a bit more stamina.  The stamina from the
pills is a general one. I took the pills before receiving Xtreme-V so it
must be the pills.

Maybe, though, that my physical responses are different. I got Xtreme-V

and if I take only one drop, it's a perfect remedy for my sleeping
disorder. Works better for me than anything else I got to get to
sleep so far. Go figure!

Xtreme-V is different from Longitude pills.
It's a herbal viagra alternative and a solution. 3 drops are
said to kick in after 15 minutes and last for 3 hours.
It's a bit expensive (90 bucks if you look around enough;
$125 otherwise, it's for 30 applications 3 drops each.
If it continues to help me sleep with 1 drop, I can save
a lot of money since I need a bottle of red wine or something similar
otherwise to go to sleep safely.

The funny feeling is in the upper digestive tract for about
15 minutes. Maybe it reacts with the MSM pills that I
take at the same time.


>  My concern is that
> this might compromise the integrity of this list -- so far it has been
> completely non-commercial.  It is free, there are no ads, there is nothing
> here that is for sale by me, etc. I would like to hear comments from you
> letting me know what you think of the idea.

Obviously its best for everyone (except maybe you -) if you continue to do
list.  It's unlikely anyone will do as good a job as you do.
> B4 going to Major Mark's and Steve's seminar I was told by friends
> (with accompanying horror story) I would need a birth certificate to
> re-enter the US.  What actually happened is I was asked for no ID
> going into Canada, for a license and registration returning to US.
> I have no idea if different people receive different treatment.

Very much so.  My experience is only via driving.  As a white male US
citizen, I've never needed more than a license.  If you are a foreigner
living in the US, you really need to bring your passport and you must be
aware of your rights to exit and return to the US (this may be more

As another note on the seminar.  If I spoke, I would pay my own way and not
expect any compensation, but free attendance.  Topics I would cover:  Body
language» cues.  First meeting tactics (with the goal being to always full
close on the first meeting, and what to do if that isn't going to happen).
> While I would be thrilled to have all those people speak, I would just
> as easily picture a forum primarily comprised of seminars given by
> students of those people.

I think it would be important that whoever speaks have a history of posting
quality material to this group or can be vouched for by Ross, Mystery or one
of the others originally listed.

NightLight9 comments on:
> Joseph (Commenting on Sisonpyh)
> Whatever? Maybe pattern speech, stories, performances, admirable ethics,
> authority, money, weakness which triggers maternal instincts, a shared
> traumatic experience, etc.
> It was a popular saying not long ago that women are most likely to fall in
> love with a man while watching him do what he does best.
> And yet, I played in front of 10,000 people last month and didn't get
> I have, however "performed/seduced" for an audience of 1 and gotten laid.
> Seems out of 10,000 people one would have been attracted. Seducing one
> person, however, was more effective.

NightLight9:  My father is ten times the guitar player I am, but he says it
never got him laid.  It gets me laid though, because I know how to use my
skill at it in conjunction with the rest of my skills.
>Yes, but Marlon can make them cream all he wants. If he doesn't do
> to cajole them to the bedroom they may decide to go home and take all that
> lust out on their borefriends.

NightLight9: Marlon doesn't have to do anything to cajole them.  Have you
seen the movie?  He is about as good looking, confident and alpha male» as you
can get.  The guy was just a stud (although he proves to be pretty fucked
up).  That cajoles them.  If you haven't seen old movies with him in it, you
can't imagine that he's the same guy as in Apocalypse Now, etc.  Anyway, the
point is that sometimes not cajoling is the best cajoling of all (even if
you don't look like a young Brando).  It's called playing hard to get, and I
suspect it's worked since the dawn of man.
> I can't stand those swarmy jock type PUA's.

NightLight9: Why do you care about someone else's style and success other than
to model it?
> To all women? All of the time? I think that it's great to do this if it
> works for you. But I also think that it's not pro-active enough and that
> only a certain type of woman will bite.

NightLight9: I guess this raises the question "what is good enough?"  Do you
need to be able to get every woman.  I hope not.  I don't believe it's
possible.  There are just going to be personality types combined with
situations that you can never hope to mesh with on a cold intro.  Mystery is
the master of only getting a certain kind of woman to bite.  I know lots of
women who would be totally put off by him, but he nails really hot women on
a regular basis (the kind of women many men think are the HARDEST to bang
without looks, money or fame).  Do you think Mystery should change his
methods because he can't bang anyone he wants? (He'll probably say he can, so
the point is moot but...  : )  He just has to settle for what he considers
the 10's ;-).
> With seduction, you can change
> strategy to nab the particular desired fish. Like with a spear gun.
> Attraction is more like sitting on a dock with a fishing pole waiting for
> a nibble. If you're bottom fishing, you're only going to catch bottom
> dwellers, and not necessarily the type of trout or catfish you want. I
> like hunting better than fishing.

NightLight9: I tend to think that you are blinding yourself to the
limitations of your methods as badly as anyone using attracting is blinding
themselves.  I think SS is great, but using Attraction Method (AM, I'm going
to use this acronym from now on to describe the methods prescribed by the
Tao of Steve, Sisonpyh, Mark and sometimes myself) has plenty of
applications and can yield results with women who just wouldn't connect to
patterning or just wouldn't make themselves available to patterning.


> Halbster (Commenting to Vinnigar)
>   >  I don't ALWAYS respond that way.  With that particular chick
>   >  she asked me out of reflex, really not concerned with the answer
>   >  and just to say something.  So my response was perfect in that
>   >  context with that particular girl. I might drop a bad boy seed
>   >  here and there and see how she responds, but I will also test
>   >  provider, adventurer, romancer characters and cycle between those that
>   >  she responds best to.  This allows me to not fit into any one
>   >  category, thus creating a new category for me.  This makes me
>  This testing approach is very interesting.  It isn't often that someone
>  writes something that really makes me think through my style.  Can you
> please
>  write some more about how you do this.  Thanks.

I will play with a concept/theme and then drop it and play with another.
For example, after telling a romantic story, and getting good results,
I might get into a story of a high school fight I was involved in.
Or after a metaphysical rap, I might talk about action flicks
or sports cars.  After kids and marriage talk, I might talk about
orgies and bi-sexuals.  My goal is to avoid her seeing me as
any one "type". I think what this does is fractionate,
put myself in many categories in her mind (cover more area),
keep her off balance and leave open loops; all of which
is a good thing : )

To Sis.. (re: "I think this female turn-on mechanism is HARD WIRED into the
brain and nervous system, and reacts to certain things instantly and
These things can be looks, smells, voice, behavior, a combination, or
whatever. Again, I think that this mechanism comes as standard equipment on
most women from birth. This means that they didn't choose it... also, most
have never learned how to control it, and they don't know how to turn it on
or off."):

I think it's mostly behavior. You can run a safety pattern on a chick
to get her feeling safe OR when a dude steps up and interrupts,
you can stand straight up to him, look him dead in the eye,
and say, "Dude...I'm having a conversation here...gimme a
minute" to elicit the same feelings.

Re: accusing a chick of picking you up ...

This in addition to ball breaking, has got me the most mileage.
Here's an example: I was chatting a chick and she started telling
me about her new apartment, how many rooms, etc.  My response was
"I'm sure it's nice...but..I don't know if I'm comfortable going home
with you just yet."  She laughed and went on to convince me
why it's ok...hahaha

To the group re: being direct:
Ross said something to the effect that at first a suggestion
is resisted and then accepted.  With that in mind, I went out
to try something. To a waitress at a niteclub: "You
shouldn't stand close to're gonna get really horny
for shouldn't stay here."  Of course, she
looked at me like "Are you fucking kidding me or what?"
and left. As the night progressed I noticed her eye contact
with me increased and her proximity to me increased.

I said the same thing to another waitress, and her response was: "You might
be right."  I did some other stuff to amp it up i.e. the more/the more,
etc. and she was totally into it.

So, direct suggestion does work.  I was with my GF that
night, so I couldn't take them home.  Plus it's fun to be
a cunt tease sometimes : )

I think its more likely to work in a situation where time
allows for the suggestion to be accepted and acted upon.
You can't use it on a chick you won't see again.

About being a MAN... It's all behavioral.  You can
run the adventurer pattern till your blue in the face,
but if you can't stand straight up to a guy
(or a person for that matter), give a solid handshake, look dead in
the face AND break HIS balls (the bigger the guy
the better the effect), then your pattern ain't gonna
fly.. capeesh?

To Sis.. you're definitely on to something...
please tell more about those mad men you
talk about.. and the things they do and say..
I'm VERY intrigued.. : )


Mark B.:
>Prime example  July long weekend a bunch of us were
>out at a lake camping out.  I'm sitting there talking
>with this girl and am getting no reaction whatsoever.
>I tried humor, I tried using SS (connection patterns,
>fascination themes, etc), I tried busting her balls
>and still nothing.  So I'm talking to someone else and
>my roommate gets back to the site.  He is a pretty good
>looking guy.  He's in good physical form, works out
>often...Now, he hasn't even talked to this girl
>before.  He sits beside her and doesn't even try to
>make conversation with her.
>5 minutes after he sits down, she puts her hand on his
>leg.  All he says is "I'm gonna get out of here for a
>bit, you wanna come?".  Her response "Only if you
>take me somewhere and fuck me."  If looks aren't all
>that important, then why do I see this guy, in
>particular, get laid only on the basis of his looks??
>And not just this happens all the time.
>And here's me using my tongue like a chump!

I think what happened here was that the first guy got the
imagination of the girl going with the SS stuff and was
beginning to get her hot and excited but did not close the
deal. When his better looking friend came along he said
"I'm gonna get out of here for a bit, you wanna come?".
She could have interpreted "Wanna come" to mean "wanna cum",
as in wanna orgasm which provided a subconscious solution
to her arousal. He used an SS technique without knowing that
he did and since she was already in a state of arousal it
was much easier for him to get her to say "Only if you
take me somewhere and fuck me." I think that the combination
of good looks and SS techniques can make a killer unstoppable


A few comments/experiences that may be of interest to the group.

I bought Ross' materials a couple of years ago when I was married to see
if I could use SS or NLP to turn around my wife's self-destructive
tendency to run through whatever money she had at the moment and then go
into debt. I couldn't make it work for that purpose.  (Was this
theoretically possible or was I trying to teach a pig to sing?) $500K
later (half from me, half from an inheritance she got) I gave up and our
divorce was final this spring.  I'm 44 now, back on the scene after 11
years. As Richard Gere said in that movie where he plays a man just
released from prison and gets shot down by the first HB he tries to
charm, "I'm a bit rusty..."

Pivots:  Absolutely priceless. You should turn EVERY girl possible into
a pivot. Met a bisexual professional ice skater some months ago I
clicked with immediately, but she lives 1000+ miles away, so I don't see
her but about every 12 weeks.  Invited her in town for a big party
(band, etc.) I was planning, and she offered to be the hostess. This was
a GREAT way to meet new HB's. Go up to 5-spot of girls at a bar, "Hi, I'm
having a party next week with [name of band] playing and really good
food, and I'd like to invite all of you. Which one of you is the leader
here? Give me a mailing address and I'll send you an invitation and a
map." Sometimes I'd be met with friendliness and genuine interest. If
the bitch shields went up (arms across the chest and "Who's going to be
there?") it was easy to have fun with it "Well, there'll probably be
some [name of local professional sports teams] there if you like rich
guys that won't pester you the next day...a few clueless guys I know if
you want to meet someone who'll put you on a pedestal...and some of my
bisexual lady friends if you're sick of men altogether, as you seem to be
right now. If you want to meet Mr. Right, he might be there but you'll
have to convince him to ditch his girlfriend, and that means you'll have
to at least go with thongs and Wonder bras instead of the grandma
underwear you're obviously wearing." If the bitch shields were up only
partially, I'd say "Bring your boyfriend if you want, but make sure he's
someone you'll vouch for.  Some girls are so insecure they can't go to a
party without a guy, so they bring someone they barely know, and that's
how I've had stuff stolen." This comment has ALWAYS reframed the

Party went great and I've got a half-dozen excellent leads. HB Skater
was a wonderful hostess, chatted up a redhead for a future threesome
while the redhead's fiance was in the other room (probably will never
happen, but it's fun to discuss it), and wants me to do another BBQ in

Related point Sisonpyh is right -- if you are cocky and fun it's a deadly
combination and you won't BELIEVE what can happen. I was lounging in bed
with HB Skater some months ago and said to her, "You'd do anything I
asked you to, wouldn't you?" She opened her mouth and I could see she
was about to say "Well, I wouldn't go jump off a cliff," but then she
realized I'd never ask that, so she said "Yes. I would." We smiled and
snuggled closer, then the conversation went like this:

Her "Do you have any sexual fantasies?"

Me "Well, you have to realize you're asking an English major, and any
English major would remind you that a fantasy has to be something that
hasn't happened yet.  I was single for 33 years, and I was pretty
aggressive about making my fantasies come true. So, I've done it with
sisters, I've done it in an elevator, at a restaurant, in an airplane,
in an airplane that I was flying..."  And we went into a fun discussion
of our past experiences.  Then

Her "So, can you think of a sexual fantasy you *haven't* made happen

Me "Well, let's see...   I haven't had identical twins..." (she nods
for me to continue) "And I haven't ever had a mother-daughter."

Her (Looking interested) "Oh! Well, I could make a phone call..."


(N.B. Her mother is 70, and lives in San Diego, and no, we're NOT going
to get together with her but the comment was priceless.  And useful, as
you will see...)

One HB I invited to the party is a waitress that has always been nice to
me, at a place near my office where I often eat lunch. She has a
5-year-old and lives with a guy.  I told her to bring the BF along.  I
sent her an invitation, and she told me "My mother saw it and wants to
come, but she's afraid she'll be the oldest one there."  "How old is
she?" asks I.  "Thirty-nine."


The mother didn't come to the party (waitress and BF did and had a great
time), but a week or so later I went in for lunch and had this

Me (With huge grin) "I've got this great story to tell you and either
you're going to think it's hilarious or you're going to be horribly
offended and you'll be uneasy around me for the rest of your life."

Her (Laughing and shaking her head) "I already know I'm going to think
it's funny."

Me "Okay. First, some background. You remember [HB Skater] from my
party? A few months ago..." and I told HB Waitress about the above
discussion, ending with the "I could make a phone call" line. HB
Waitress is laughing hard now.  "Anyway, [HB Skater] calls my cell phone
late at night sometimes to talk before she goes to bed. If I'm still up,
I'll have it turned on, and if I'm asleep it's turned off. So she called
last night, and I was still up, and while we were talking, she asked me
what I had planned for today. I told her I was going to come in here and
say hi to you." (This was made up, but could have been true.) HB
Waitress seemed startled and pleased.

Her "I didn't get to talk to her at your party--I didn't think she knew
who I was."

Me "She noticed you, and asked who you were after you had left." (Made
up, but could have been true.) "Anyway, I told her about how you said
your mother wanted to come to the party, but was afraid she'd be the
oldest one there, and then you told me your mother was 39." Here I
leaned in to whisper, and she leaned her head in, too. "So then [HB
Skater] says to me, 'Hey, they'd be *perfect* for your fantasy!'" Here I
looked at HB Waitress with this expression of barely-contained glee as
if to say, "Can you believe this shit?" Before she could say anything, I
went on "I said, 'But [HB Skater], I've never even *met* her mother!'
And she said, 'Well, her daughter's cute, and she's only 39, how bad
could she be?'"

By now, HB Waitress is caught up in this, and in between gasps for
breath, starts *describing* her mother! Then she bites her lip, gets a
thoughtful look on her face, and shakes her head, saying "I don't think
my mother would go for that, unless we got her really drunk."

!!!!!  WE? WE????  !!!!!

Had drinks today with HB Waitress and BF after she got off work.  She
said "Mom wanted to come but she doesn't get off for another hour."
Then she said she and BF want to bring her mother over to my place and
grill steaks a week from tonight. While BF is sitting there, she tells
me about a guy she used to date wanting to go out with her again, but he
was "too tentative" when he asked. I put a slightly quizzical expression
on my face and said, "Well, he *knows* you're living with [BF]..."  She
said, "Yeah, but it's a three-bedroom apartment."  I said "Ahhh," and
nodded knowingly, but in reality, I'm not at all sure what she meant by
this. Maybe that BF is more of a roommate, or that she wanted the guy to
ask straight out if BF was just a roommate...?  This was near the end of
our time together.  When BF went to the men's room, HB Waitress
stretched, cupped her breasts with her hands, and lifted them up. I
haven't done any reading on body language», but I think this might have
been a positive signal...

Don't know if any of this will come to anything, but I'm having a hell
of a lot of fun with it.  A few weeks ago, I reverted to AFC behavior
and said to a pretty bartender (who came to the party, so she was
pre-qualified) "Would you like to have dinner with me next Tuesday?" (I
know, I know, lame.) She said, "I'll just be straight with you I make
it a policy not to date customers. I hope you're not offended." "Not at
all," I told her. I could have had some fun with it, asking "Is it a
rule, or more of a...guideline?" but my heart wasn't in it, which was
maybe why I used such a tired opener in the first place.  So last week,
I stop in, and when she asks me what's new, I start laughing and tell
her the whole HB Skater and HB Waitress thing, with a kind of "Can you
BELIEVE my damn life?" attitude of amused bewilderment (fairly accurate,
BTW). I made sure I told her when another pretty bartender was standing
next to her and could hear. Now when either HB Bartender sees me they
ask about HB Waitress and her mother, and the one I asked out seems to
be looking at me with different eyes...

Got my hair cut the other day, by my usual girl, an 8+, late 20's,
happily married, who just had a baby this last spring. Told her the HB
Skater/HB Waitress/Mother story.

Her (Combination amused/horrified astonishment) "Shut up! I can't
believe that! I would NEVER even CONSIDER doing that! I don't want my
mother even in the next ROOM when I'm in bed with someone!"

Me "Why, is your mother a beast?"

Her "Well, no, but-"

Me "But she's not 39, either."

Her "No, she's 54."

Me "But if she were 39, you'd fix me up with her, wouldn't you?"

Her "Well-"

Me "And then *you'd* have to jump me, so I could see that you were
better in bed, right?"

Her "I'm not always *that* competitive with my mother!"

Me "So you'd go to bed with me just for me, and not to compete with
your mother?"

Her "Yes, I'd--YOU ARE SO BAD!" (Shaking head with huge smile)

Me "I need a girlfriend just like you, only not married.  Smart, funny,
great in bed..."

Her "How do you know if I'm any good in bed?"

Me (Looking at her like she's a complete idiot) "Oh, come on. If you
were my girl, you'd do anything I wanted, and you know it." (Like I just
thought of something, hurrying on before she could answer.) "Suppose I
handed you a full-length fur coat and told you to wear it with nothing
on under it except heels, and we were going to go hit the bars? You'd do
it in a heartbeat. And if I told you you had to find at least one pretty
girl in each bar, and tell her what you were doing, and show her you
were naked, so she'd get turned on and do something sexy for *her*
boyfriend the next time she saw him, you'd do *that*, too, wouldn't you?
Look me in the eye and tell me you wouldn't."

I did not expect what came next.  She got a distant look in her eyes,
and her voice seemed to come from somewhere else.

Her "I married the wrong person."

I think I know how Robert Oppenheimer must have felt when he saw the
results of the first atomic bomb detonation and he realized the work he
had done wasn't just a theory anymore.


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cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

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Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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