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"The Smells of Love"

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The Smells of Love
8/15/01 5:12:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Cliff Goes Commercial (sort of)
Well, I followed up on my threat to add some clickthroughs to this email
newsletter.  I don't know if that is good news or bad news, but the good
news is that there doesn't seem to be any reason that I can't do whatever I
have been doing before and just leave these links here for you to click on
or ignore as you choose.  I selected a few links and there will be a few
more added in the next few emails.  There are a couple of products I didn't
know about previously that I have gotten links to that I don't know if they
are any good or not so if someone wanted to order these and review them,
that would be appreciated.  I also set up a link to as I am sure
most of you buy things from them as I do on a semi-regular basis.  Now, at
no additional cost to you, you could click through to next time
you wanted to order from them and know that you are helping to keep this
email newsletter going (you generous fool, you!).  I am obviously new at
this and I don't have a lot of time to play with setting it up, but I am
sure a format will emerge in the next few emails I send out.  Your comments
as always, would be appreciated.


Here's a link, just for fun.  Nothing for sale here:


Mystery's Lounge is REOPENED! After a lengthy downtime, the Lounge is
accessible in all its glory once again. As the membership is PRIVATE, in
order to become a member you must email mys***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] with
REQUEST MEMBERSHIP in the subject line. Include your REAL name, your
experience, background in the PUA, some online PUA's who can vouch for you
(references), and a real pic of yourself. If you do not wish to give this
REAL information, don't join. Only the PRO's are in there anyways - we
discuss lots of stuff but it's the REAL pix of our conquests and the fact
that we don't HIDE who we are to each other that makes it appealing. MANY
of the members Mystery has personally sarged with. The rule is simple:
don't fuck up anyone's game. If you can abide by that and have a track
record for contributing, then that's basically good as gold. Pix are a
requirement, however. The Lounge is in many ways an EXTENTION of Cliff's
List and is not an alternative. If Cliff recommends you, you are likely to
become a member. You don't have to be a PRO, but you MUST play the game. If
you are only WANTING to ONE DAY chase skirts, please don't bother joining.


Here's a question for the PUA'S and SS'ers on the list:
What types of challenge games do you play with women to get their
attention/make them feel like little kids again?

One of my students posted about playing slap the palm with a stripper. You
take turns putting your palms on top of their outstretched palms and you
see if they are fast enough to smack your hands before you pull them
away..then you switch off.

Another one posted the following:
The following short quiz consists of 4 questions and tells whether you are
qualified to be a "professional". Scroll down for each answer. The
questions are not that difficult.

1.      How do you put a giraffe into a refrigerator?

The correct answer is open the refrigerator door, put in the giraffe and
closes the door. This question tests whether you tend to do simple things
in an overly complicated way.

2.      How do you put an elephant into a refrigerator?

Open the refrigerator door put in the elephant and close the refrigerator
door is the wrong answer. Correct Answer is that you open the refrigerator
door, take out the giraffe, put in the elephant and close the door. This
tests your ability to think through the repercussions of your actions.

3.      The Lion King is hosting an animal conference. All the animals
attend except one. Which animal does not attend?

Correct answer is the Elephant. The Elephant is in the refrigerator. This
tests your memory. OK, even if you did not answer the first three questions
correctly, you still have one more chance to show your abilities.

4.      You must cross a river. But crocodiles inhabit it. How do you
manage it?

The correct answer is that you swim across. All the Crocodiles are
attending the Animal Meeting. This tests whether you learn quickly from
your mistakes.

According to this consulting company, around 90% of the professionals they
tested got all questions wrong. But many preschoolers got several correct
answers. The consulting company says this conclusively disproves the theory
that most professionals have the brains of a four-year-old. I discovered
this helps lighten up the conversation and get into some patterns.

I think as being part of the cocky/challenging/fun mind
set/presentation/approach these might all work well.


(More from Ross (Commenting on Mark:
"Ross, if I were you I would consider the effectives of other approaches
rather than simply dismissing them as ineffective.")
Believe me, I do consider them. And not just consider them in theory but
based on my own experience and the experiences of guys who are similar
situations to my own.
Mark, with respect, I believe what you post and I believe it works for YOU.
I believe you are also NOT considering the context what your looks allow
you to get away with.):

Mark  O.K. fine I am with you now. I see what you mean.

Ross  Women are going to look at you and feel an attraction RIGHT AWAY.
That's a
huge open-door that many of us don't have.
I really think you are NOT considering how much your looks
enable/potentiate/empower your APPROACH.

Mark   I guess I have not considered that but thanks for opening the door now.

Ross  If a woman is creaming herself just by virtue of her looking at you,
direct will get you somewhere.  If she looks at me and doesn't have that
ATTRACTION, then I have to CREATE it BEFORE I get "direct", "indirect" or
any mix or combination.
I've never seen you get this point about what your looks allow you to do.

Mark  Now I see it. It's clear to me now. But you know I have always been too
critical of myself to my detriment. Always striving to look better and more
physically dominant.

Ross   You could probably also win a bar fight by directly tackling the guy
taking him to the floor. I couldn't do that either.  Doesn't mean what you
do doesn't work in a fight, just that it would NOT work for me.
My advice is given in the CONTEXT of being aimed at guys who are not gifted
in the "looks" department. I know you ARE gifted, so is Sis, Rick, Mystery,
etc. etc. etc. I'm the only "ugly guy" out there swinging for what works
for us toad-men.

Mark    As I said before many women are attracted to me but my biggest
problem has
been convincing them that I am interested in them. You know I bought your
system in order to better my ability to make them feel that I want them and
they could feel passion with me rather than rejection. I have had enough of
them telling me I look great and that they feel attraction for me but that
they do not feel I want them. Your ideas, which I have already incorporated
my approach work wonders to overcome the "You are not interested in me Mark"

Ross    So have a little sympathy for your less fortunate Bros, Bro. And don't
expect us to be able to replicate YOUR results when we isn't packing YOUR
gear.  I can have great aim, but I ain't taking down a bear with a varmint
rifle. Instead, I've got to spring a trap, to use a
metaphor.  Or  tranquilize the damn bear and train her to like me.

Mark     Sure. All my sympathy - but do not be too hard on yourself. I've
been there.
When I was a teenager I had horrible acne that lasted until I was 21. No
pussy for me from the age of 16 until 21. Once it cleared I started getting
laid regularly.

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "I am not making her choose. Obviously if I want
to sleep with her then she will naturally think that it's behind his back.
How else? Saying that it
will be behind his back means that she gets to indulge with me but gets to
keep her marriage safe and secure.")

You are missing my point. This is chyck logic.  A woman may well be willing
to HAVE the affair, no problem. But she doesn't want to explicitly AGREE to
the affair and what it implies, she just wants to do it!

Mark   I see that now from looking back at her behaviour.

Ross   You are not just aiming at evoking the behaviour, you are ASKING for
consent; for her to not only take responsibility, but to recognize that she
Doesn't the chyck who says she doesn't fuck on the first date
when she really DOES want to bang you. She just doesn't want the
response-ability explicitly agreeing.
This should be an elementary point to see...

Mark  I see...makes sense... So the key is to free her of her
responsibility right?

Ross (Commenting on Mark "Did you read the part where she offered to come
over to my house and cook for me? Do you really think that she only thought
of coming over to
only cook a meal? To finesse someone into something in my mind implies some
form of manipulation or trickery. My directness induced her to suggest
coming over to my place to "cook" as well as her incessant calls and
begging for forgiveness after I refused to return her
calls and e-mails. How do you explain that?")

I think you've created confusion AND desire on her part, which to me is a
bad thing.  You are not just saying, "Let's step outside your marriage" you
are also saying, "Do you agree to step outside your marriage?"  Different

Mark   I see that again Ross. I see it would have been better to suggest
that we
just engage on pure physical passion without any mention of an "affair"
which connotates cheating.

Ross (Commenting on Mark "Of course she was conflicted. Wouldn't any
married woman
be conflicted no matter how you phrase your intent?")
No, some are committed but bored, right Major Mark? See "Renegade
Hypnotist's Guide To Banging Married Women"
You made the conflict worse, not better.

Ross (Commenting on Mark "By telling her I wanted an affair she knew where
I stood with her. By telling her that it would be behind her husband's back
she becomes fully aware of all the risks of the encounter.")
No, you channelled her into a way of viewing it that now prohibits her from
viewing it any other way. You have said, "IF you do this, it means you ARE

Mark  So the better way is to avoid mentioning that it is cheating. While
of your approach I told her that I am her escape and that she could run to
me any time. Later she said she would like to have a sanctuary where she
could go off to and be alone away from everything. Your shit is devilishly

Ross (Commenting on Mark "People are much more likely to take risks when
they are aware of
the worst case scenario and in this case she became aware of what that would
Dude, this is so wrong, it's axiomatic and beyond discussing. Totally wrong.

Mark  This works for me in sales where I excaudate the worst case scenario and
people just laugh. I work as an Investment Advisor and when people ask about
risk I say the risk is that you will lose all your money in one day. The see
that is the worse case scenario  but also beyond possibility and do not
question risk again.

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "Besides why get lost in the fine detail of the
conversation. It's my
intent and how I said it that really matters, not the semantics.")
Ha ha. Totally wrong. Precision counts when persuading. If you don't have
the discipline for it...well, what counts in body building is intent, NOT
doing the movement correctly, or working the right part of the muscle, the
right number of reps, the right diet.  Riiiiight.

Mark  Ross you should see me now. BIG SMILE on my face. You hit me where it
but be careful you are now on my grounds. Once again you are right. I've had
the best workout when my intent was to have a great workout or train with
intensity.  After trying out some of your stuff from your web site on a few
women the
results have been mind boggling. You are king and master but I only say that
because your stuff works in real life. I would not say this only by taking
your work on face value without practical real world testing.

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "Also by making it harder I become a greater
challenge where I will not out up with her flaky behaviour. I show her that
I want it my way and this to her makes
me look like a more of a man.")
No, you just make it harder for her to comply.  Who cares about "looking
like a man"? Get off that shit; what matters is doing what works without
making YOU feel weak.

Mark  Yes, yes, yes my king. Next married women that I attempt to get in
the sack
I will not repeat the same mistakes.

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "I did tell her it would be passionate, special,
secret and taboo.
Especially in this case where an affair is the wrong thing to do it makes it
more exciting and enticing. If I made it seem that is was acceptable to her
marriage to indulge the thrill of the affair would have lost its luster.")
Ha ha ha. I think you are underestimating the needs and desires of women.

Mark  What are their needs and desires according to you?

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "My making it forbidden and taboo makes it more
appealing and exciting. I have slept with a few women with boyfriends and
when I asked them why they did it
and how they feel about it they all say that it feels thrilling and taboo
but that makes it more exciting and inviting. After all, why would you have
an affair that is just as boring and mundane as your marriage.")
Yeah, but framing it as cheating and making her agree that that is what it
will be makes it MUCH harder for her to accept IF she has what she
considers to be "integrity".

Mark  Agreed.

Ross (Commenting on Mark  "She keeps calling despite everything and wants
to see me for
"something more." I think you need to work a little bit more on your
analysis of extra marital affairs.")
You seem upset; I'm not trying to insult. I think there was an easier way.
But enjoy banging her and enjoy the guilt she throws back at you.
You know, I think you would get less of the flaking and testing that you
have quite admirably trained yourself to handle if you would set it up so
that they are less conflicted about the whole thing.

Mark  I was a little pissed off but growth comes from pain. Later with her and
with other I will avoid explicitly make it seem like a conflict.

Mark   Ross, I have read you stuff and I am impressed. Your techniques and the
testimony of your students indicate that they have been able to score with
women that they have tried to score with for years or with women otherwise
would not give them a second look. I would like to know how to score the one
that got away and stays away.

Back in 1998 I met a stunningly beautiful woman with whom I spent the whole
day. In the evening we ended up in her apartment and all hot and heavy on the
couch. She had a strong vaginal odor/scent (did not bother me by the way)
and when it came apparent to her that I became aware of it she freaked out
in embarrassment and said I took advantage of her while she was sleeping.
She said she would rather be friends. As I did not know any better back then
I agreed and we were just friends as I waited for her to make the move that
never came. She said that she prefers to be friends first before anything
romantic happens but the wait for me was too long (four months) I ended up
leaving our "friendship" in frustration. But I kept thinking about her and
about getting back into her pants. I also want to make sure she does not
feel embarrassed about her odor/scent around me. Now she refuses to even
answer my calls or return e-mails but I know that if I run a few of your
patterns I could win her back, as now looking back I realize she is highly
What can I say to her in the context of what happened? I could leave her a
highly suggestible and carefully crafted Ross message. I am still eagerly
waiting for the arrival of your Basic System plus the Confidence tapes.


Halbster (Commenting on Ross:
> We were talking about how he gets tons of women on AOL; they love his
>  picture and often IM him based on browsing his on-line ad. At lunch, I was
>  sarging the crap out of the waitress, doing great, but I mentioned to him
>  that, if she saw my pic on AOL, before actually talking to me, she'd never
>  want to meet me (which is true; I've gotten laid on AOL a grand total of
> once.  They LOVE my profile, but once they see the pic...forget it).

Play as if you don't have a picture.  I don't think you've tried this yet.  A
simple self-description is often sufficient, and they will still send their
pics.  Although, it might be different if you IM them.  I don't know because
I've never done that.


David Johnson (  NLP & SS):
Something I noticed today when sarging on the
train...talking to girls 'out of nowhere' is a really
strange experience for them!
Let me try to explain. I was waiting for a train into
London, sat down on a bench besides this great looking
girl, relaxed a bit, put my arm on the back on the
bench and said 'How are you doing today?'.  She
responded, positively.  Needless to say, we spent the
whole 45 minute train ride talking, really enjoying
each others company.  She found me very intriguing and
interesting for a number of reasons - BUT what she
said more than anything else was 'You know, it is
really strange that you talk to people you don't know.
I wouldn't normally talk to someone out of the blue.'
Now after internalizing this, I started to think  It
must be really important either to
a) pace her reality or
b) give a statement of intent (SOI)
Without either of those, her mind started to wander
about why I was talking to her? Did I do this all the
time? etc.
But then I started thinking about being vague and
mysterious.  Was it more compelling because I was a
I started to think about common pick up line that I
have heard RJ use.
'I know this is a strange way to meet people, but I
saw you there and had to come over and introduce
myself.'  To me this accomplishes alot - it paces what
she is thinking and also calms her because she can
frame what you are doing based on a experience she
probably has already had - I suppose the auto-pilot
that RJ was talking about.
In her world - A stranger approaches her, introduces
himself - she realizes that he must either be 'really
friendly' or trying 'to pick her up'.  Either one of
these she is familiar enough with that she will not be
So what does the group think?  Is the Intrigue of a
Stranger more important - the shock value so-to-speak.
Or Pacing her Reality and SOI so she call on her own
experiences and feel more at ease.


>   The last time, I posted an NLP-heavy
>ad on a singles' board.  One woman invited me on the chat line and she just
>kept going with a steady stream of lines like "Wow... why aren't you
>married?" and "You're definitely my type."  Finally, she wanted my photo.
>When she got it... she went offline and disappeared forever.

I've got the same problem. I've never been able to make on-line
dating work, because of the "photogenically challenged" situation.
In person, I can get my energy, confidence and voice across, as well
as my touch.  But as a picture, PRIOR to hearing my voice...

Please pass this link on.  Haven't tried it yet, but got it from a
good source.


> Obviously if I want to sleep with her then
> she will naturally think that it's behind his back. How else?

All of my one-night-stands (not too many) who were in a relationship of any
kind ("I fuck him sometimes - what can you do, he's got money - but I don't
want to play his GF although it would serve me well") told me they were
going to tell their partner about us having sex or petting ("I'm gonna tell
him we knew us earlier"). They seem to be forgiving as I would be myself If
I had such an honest woman. So they can obviously have sex in front of their
BF's backs. What do you think, are they totally untrue? (My approach is a
rather defensive, talkative one.) Are they lying?

Another woman told me she was telling her roommates in the youth-hostel she
had been at a party when we had been home. She said I was her (28,
attractive) second lover.
> I said it this way because I do not want
> her to leave her husband for me, just an affair.

Inexperienced as I am, I wouldn't think a woman would leave her husband for
> Do you really think that she only thought of coming over to
> only cook a meal?

I figure that possible.
> incessant calls and begging for forgiveness after I refused to return her
> calls and e-mails. How do you explain that?

Did you fuck her? Maybe she likes you. Transition back to my question if
you are sure women who invite you to cook just want sex (and get it goddamn),
someone else gets 18 HB's + strippers in his first year of sargy and I am
told by my bed mates they tell their BF's (or that they don't have sex with
others but play alot) am *I* cheated?


I'm gonna need you all to dig down deep and tell me how to handle this
sensitive issue.  Breaking up is one of the things I hate doing the most,
and they usually hate me afterwards.  It would be nice to get some
suggestions in this area.

My Comment: Personally, I do my best not to promise them anything that I
cannot deliver, like eternal love, for example.  I see people get divorced
after 10-15-20 years of marriage so I keep in my head to phrase everything
I say to a woman to apply to the present.  If I were to be in a situation
where I may get married, while I don't expect to break up with the woman, I
really cannot say for sure how I am going to feel years in the future which
is the absolute truth.  At the same time, I would want her to feel
comfortable and secure with me and I don't want to lie so I know I would be
very precise in what I would say and just avoid saying too much (if I can,
this is all nice speculation but it's another thing to be in that situation
facing those big, lovesick eyes looking at you with all the hope she has in
her heart and soul...).

Otherwise, you might look into getting a copy of Major Mark's The Locket
Pattern.  I think it is in his Scoring With Married Women book but I am not

This is exactly what I'm faced with.  I get this alot and have no idea how
to deal with it. The Locket Pattern sounds great, but do you guys have any
advice for me without giving away the pattern word-for-word?

This girl, well I stole her away from her live-in boyfriend and gave her
plenty of "I don't want a relationship" stuff, and "Don't fall in love with
me" and "Don't you just hate these people that are so needy" and really
laid it on thick, and made it clear from the start.  But I can tell, she's
doing everything to not seem like she wants a full-blown relationship TO
PLEASE ME.  Which is actually an ideal situation, for now.  But I can just
smell the desperation, and she's only 21, and here's the main thing that's
turning me off: her pussy stinks.  Alot of young girls just aren't aware of
the need to always take a bath before sex, and it's disgusting!  I tell
them to shave, but telling them to clean is just outside of what I want to
have to do!  One girl, a very classy, young, feminine, rich sweetheart once
bent over for me and had a dirty bum.  I almost puked as the smell of
(bleep) assaulted my nostrils.

Now, I know that if I told her to clean it, although she would be extremely
embarrassed, she would do it.  But I'm tired of these little girls that
need you to teach them EVERYTHING.  And the better they look, the more they
need to learn how to fuck, act, talk, and be.  So instead of playing doctor
therapist savior, I just want to "next her".  I used to spend so much time
fixing and molding these girls, but now I want to find one that's already
educated, and capable.  Enough.

How do you dump a girl with the least amount of discomfort?

(Stephane on a different topic:)
Here is some advice I gave recently to an SS newbie, who wanted to know how
to get started and start closing deals.  I gave him a good, short pattern
(From Bandler) and some general advice:

Since you're so shy, it's gonna take some practice.  Start by coming off as
knowing that dating you is something she will enjoy.  Start off with that
deep conviction inside.

Now, since your shy, using a swift pickup line right off the bat probably
scares you, so it won't suit your personality.  So go for the girls that
are already smiling, and look happy.  And remember, the more playful you
are (balanced with sincerity), the better.  Just treat her like she's one
of the guys, and act like you already date lots of girls, so if she's
interested or not, it's no big deal, you have no problem being friends.

So, once you've managed to start a conversation, and she's laughing, and
you've got rapport (this should only take 90 seconds), ask her out.  I'll
tell you what to say in a minute, but before I do it's important for you to
understand the basics.  Do not force the conversation to last too long,
because you face the risk of boring her.  Make your interactions in the
beginning short and sweet, and hit them with this

YOU (taking a step back, tilting your head, furrowing your eyebrows, as if
you've just noticed something intriguing about her)

HER (smiling, wondering what's going on) "What???"

YOU (With extreme confidence) "What would I have to do to make you WANT TO
GO OUT WITH ME?"  (you say "want to go out with me" like a command, not a

HER (probably shocked, and turned on by your confidence) "Uh...I don't know"

YOU (Just raise your eyebrows and look at her with an expectant look, and
say nothing)

HER (she'll eventually tell you.  If it's something stupid, like, buying
her a car, look at her with disgust and walk away.)

I've used this dozens of times, with a high (80%!) close ratio.  I use it
when I don't have alot of time to talk, or if the SS patterns aren't
flowing.  It blows them away because they aren't used to it, and there's a
strong embedded command (want to go out with me) in it.  It also works
because instead of asking her if she ALREADY wants to go out with you,
you're asking her "what would I have to do".  Now, the only way she can
answer that is by thinking about it, thereby triggering her natural
attraction strategy.   The credit goes to Bandler for this quick, easy, and
extremely let's-skip-all-the-bullshit-and-get-straight-to-the-point pattern.


Oscar Bruce:
Have you thought about a separate newsletter focused on men (and women)
overage 40 or perhaps 50?  I've noticed that your letter addresses the
style of dating or pursuing done primarily by men 20 to 30 or even
younger.  Men 50 or older (who have more money) can not and will not try
the same stunts young men can get away with. Young men have their youth, looks,
and careers to use as bait. But generally only younger women are the
targets or will respond to these techniques.  Older women have an entirely
different place in life than the disorganized young girls. Also men must
use entirely different lines and bait.


Commenting on: (NightLight9 comments on
Joseph (Commenting on Sisonpyh) Whatever? Maybe pattern speech, stories,
performances, admirable ethics, authority, money, weakness which triggers
maternal instincts, a shared traumatic experience, etc. It was a popular
saying not long ago that women are most likely to fall in love with a man
while watching him do what he does best. And yet, I played in front of
10,000 people last month and didn't get laid. I have, however
"performed/seduced" for an audience of 1 and gotten laid.  Seems out of
10,000 people one would have been attracted. Seducing one person, however,
was more effective.

NightLight9  My father is ten times the guitar player I am, but he >says it
never got him laid.  It gets me laid though, because I know how to use >my
skill at it in conjunction with the rest of my skills.):

Exactly. What I was trying to say was that a performance alone will not
usually get you laid. Some people seem to think that being in a place of
respect and spotlight means that women are throwing themselves at you
24-7.  Sometimes, but it often depends on the attitude. Why else would
Charlie Sheen hire so many prostitutes? Seems like beautiful women should
be offering him free range sex 24-7 the way some people portray the famous.

(Commenting on: Yes, but Marlon can make them cream all he wants. If he
doesn't do anything
to cajole them to the bedroom they may decide to go home and take all that
lust out on their borefriends.

NightLight9 Marlon doesn't have to do anything to cajole them.  Have you
seen the movie?  He is about as good looking, confident and alpha male» as
you can get.  The guy was just a stud (although he proves to be pretty
fucked up).  That cajoles them.  If you haven't seen old movies with him in
it, you can't imagine that he's the same guy as in Apocalypse Now,
etc.  Anyway, the point is that sometimes not cajoling is the best cajoling
of all (even if don't look like a young Brando).  It's called playing hard
to get, and I suspect it's worked since the dawn of man.):

Yes, but that's still doing something to cajole them. I know some guys who
attract women via "Hard to Get" games. But they still have to close at some
point. I mean the woman doesn't exactly rape them when they get laid
My basic point is that just because a woman is attracted to you doesn't
mean you can fuck her. In my AFC days I even got girls who wanted to fuck
me back to my apartment, or have had them ask me to spend the night at
their place "because it was too late to drive me home."  I can remember
that all I would have had to do was grab them and kiss them and I prolly
would have had sex with some really awesome women. Instead I talked about
stupid shit all night until they figured I was either not a man or not
attracted to them. The next morning I would be forever exiled to the friend
If a girl is attracted to you, it doesn't mean that she wants to fuck you
every minute of every day. So it's useful to be able to calibrate her
attraction and put her in the mood to fuck.
What if you were a male super model but were really shy and the only time
you got with a girl was when a really aggressive one jumped you, and then
when that happened, you were too nervous from the unexpectedness of it to
get it up? You would be attracting aggressive women, but then you still
couldn't fuck them.

(Commenting on: "I can't stand those swarmy jock type PUA's.

NightLight9 Why do you care about someone else's style and success other
than to model it?"):

Why would I want to model someone I can't stand, someone who attracts the
type of woman that I do not want? My point is that I am not going to turn
myself into someone who I don't even like to be around, just to fuck women.
Especially when I don't even like the kind of women that that behavior

(Commenting on: "To all women? All of the time? I think that it's great to
do this if it works for you. But I also think that it's not pro-active
enough and that only a certain type of woman will bite.

NightLight9 I guess this raises the question "what is good enough?"  Do you
need to be able to get every woman.  I hope not.  I don't believe it's
possible.  There are just going to be personality types combined with
situations that you can never hope to mesh with on a cold intro.  Mystery
is the master of only getting a certain kind of woman to bite.  I know lots
of women who would be totally put off by him, but he nails really hot women
on a regular basis (the kind of women many men think are the HARDEST to
bang without looks, money or fame)."):

I believe we are talking about the same type women. The type that Sys and
Mystery get - young, beautiful, conceited but with low self esteem,
shallow, and usually with closed minds and 0 taste in music. Club girls, in

(Commenting on: "Do you think Mystery should change his methods because he
can't bang anyone he wants? (He'll probably say he can, so the point is
moot but... : )  He just has to settle for what he considers the 10's ;-)."):

Well I'm not Mystery, and I don't like those kind of women. So if I were
good at his method and was banging a bunch of young materialists I would
prolly have to learn some other technique in order to get the girls I
wanted. I'm not saying that Sys and Mys don't have effective methods, I'm
just saying that some of us want different things. If I wanted just to get
laid, I could concentrate on making money rather than seducing women, and
then materialistic super models would want to use me for the  money. What
would I care as long as I was getting what I wanted- i.e.- sex.
Fact is I enjoy seducing women. Putting them into trance and figuring them
out is almost as fun as fucking them.  Having meaningful relationships with
them is fun, too.
I'm not good with club girls prolly because I don't like them. I am sincere
when I'm sarging a beautiful girl who also has some culture, taste, etc.  I
really can't get into it if I think the girl's convo is boring and
materialistic. Sex is great, but I like to be nice to people. I don't have
the heart to kick them outta my bed when I'm finished. So if I fuck a girl
I can't stand to be around just because she's hot, I'll feel guilty. It's
not worth it to me to have sex with a girl if sitting through breakfast
with her the next morning is going to be unbearable.
And I don't mean that I'm monogamous; I'm polyamorous. I want to continue
knowing a girl if I want to fuck her. It's necessary for me to have
something more in a relationship than physical attraction...and since this
is the truth, it helps when seducing because it creates a challenge for the

(Commenting on: "With seduction, you can change strategy to nab the
particular desired fish. Like with a spear gun. Attraction is more like
sitting on a dock with a fishing pole waiting for a nibble. If you're
bottom fishing, you're only going to catch bottom dwellers, and not
necessarily the type of trout or catfish you want. I like hunting better
than fishing.

NightLight9 I tend to think that you are blinding yourself to the
limitations of your methods as badly as anyone using attracting is blinding
themselves.  I think SS is great, but using Attraction Method (AM, I'm
going to use this acronym from now on to describe the methods prescribed by
the Tao of Steve, Sisonpyh, Mark and sometimes myself) has plenty of
applications and can yield results with women who just wouldn't connect to
patterning or just wouldn't make themselves available to patterning."):

Yes, there are woman who would look at you with a "Gag me with a spoon"
attitude if you came up to them and complimented them on their energy or
told them you wanted to analyze their handwriting. I generally believe
these women to be closed-minded. Women with the attitude that you're a nerd
if you think deeply. These girls aren't what I'm after.
Perhaps this AM would be good for other types of women who also would not
respond to SS, and I do read Sysonpyh's newsletter and posts. In fact,
sometimes I act like the bad-boy to get initial attraction before the
seduction begins. I'm not against the methods, I just took offense to Sys's
putting down SS just because it doesn't work for him.
SS is not the only method I use. But alot of what Sys seems to condone is
simply "being a jerk" which does attract women, just the wrong kind for me.
I like fulfilling a woman's needs. Being what she has always longed for.
Not just getting laid. Seems to me you could get laid with AM and still not
be remembered as the most profound experience a woman has had with a man.
If you master SS or the techniques found in other methods which teach
sharing emotions with women and being empathic, you will be the kind of guy
that romance novels are made of. I don't remember reading any romance
novels where the hero "gave the chick a chance to suck his cock," or
thought of sharing emotions and giving women profound emotional experiences
as "faggot shit." However challenging the hero is, he's going to care, or
come to care, about the woman as well.
For me, it's more fun to be a romantic hero than a jerk. To each his own.


A little close the other night I thought was worth mentioning.  We were in a
martini bar and I saw a woman drinking a normal drink.
NL9 "What are you drinking?"
HB "I don't like martini's"
NL9 "Me neither, that's why I tell the bartender 'Make me something that
tastes good' and he gives me one of these"
HB "What is it?"
NL9 "I don't know"

We talked for while about fluff and I elicited values.  She was there with 4
other girls and they were all coming in and out of our conversation.  I was
aloof and funny, but no patterning, just displaying personality, building
rapport and mirroring, etc.  Things were going well, but I wasn't in.  She
was talking about how polite I was and what a gentleman I was.  It was
clear that she was being slightly flirtatious but I wasn't crossing the line
past bar diversion (which was much better than the myriad of guys who were
hitting on the group and getting blown off in very catty ways, but still not
good enough to close.).  She and her friends were definitely bar crew and
very used to being hit on.  We finished are drinks and she said she wanted
another one.  I told her she could buy one.  She didn't like that but she
couldn't decide if I was really being rude or not, because I wasn't acting
rude.  She said she had to go to the bathroom and would be right back.  I
knew she wouldn't be back, but I said I would see her in a few minutes.  I
went and talked to the other bar patrons.  About 15 minutes later I saw and
walked up to her and acted like nothing had been weird (like we just met up
again like we said we would).  We talked some more.  Similar to before, and
I had her laughing.  I went for the coffee close just for practice.  She
said she didn't date anyone and that she just wasn't into it.  I said
"Doesn't that bother you?  Not being able to give all that you have to
offer?"  She kind of looked at me a little sideways and one of her friends
walked up to her and said they needed to leave and some other stuff.  I just
said, "...because you seem like the kind of person who is very aware of what
she has to offer."  Then I just sat there not really trying to get her to
give me her number, just stating fact.  I could see her processing.  She
took out her card and said "Well, we could go for coffee...  Call the cell
number on here, that's the only number that you'll be able to reach me at."  I
said, "Yeah let's just see how things go over coffee."   For newbies, the
part about what number to call is typically an indicator that this is a real
number close and not a blow-off number.


Scott D:
Here's another psychology/personality game that was taught in psychology at
uni (I told by uni friends). This one makes the chicks cry and
I've heard some awesome
answers. Basically you get the person to describe the first thing that comes
into their mind. Once they have described it move onto the next. You can do
multiple people at once. Get their answers but don't interpret it till the

You should all think of this as you go through and interpret yourselves.
This will give you practice. It's easy and everyone loves it.

Picture a forest -

Ask about what types of trees. If they are disorganized.
Ask them to describe a path.
I've had a path up in the trees.

Picture a lake -
Ask if it's rejuvenating, deep, has stuff in it (animals).
Make them dive in. Do they enjoy being in the water.
Note: Go into depth...for example, if they say a Loch Ness monster, find out
if it's scary and evil or mysterious, illustrious and intriguing, etc.

You get out of the lake and your on the edge of a vast desert. You walk
along and a big serpent with ten heads is in your way. How do you get past?
People pull out swords, trick it, run around it, walk through it as if it's
imaginary, etc.

You continue walking and you find a key... describe it... is it valuable? do
you keep it?

You continue walking and fall through the sand and find yourself in a white
room with just walls... what do you do?
Some feel content.. others have to get out some find a way etc..

The end

The forest represents life... and the path obviously where you are going. A
dirt path is less defined as a straight concrete path. Pine trees in rows is
more organized, etc.

The lake represents their love life.

The serpent represents how one deals with dangers/obstacles.

The key represents your knowledge.

The white room represents death.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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