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Bob? What kind of pimp name is that?
8/26/01 3:49:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Sisonpyh (
Hey guys, I've been busy lately, but I wanted to post some of my latest
stuff... so here it is in my typical random format...


One of my favorite books is Gerry Spence's book "How To Argue And Win Every
Time" (I've listened to the audio tape version many, many times as well,
and recommend it highly). In that book, he talks about the concept of
personal power, and how most people give away their power to others.

Here's one way I generalize male/female relationships.

1. Power
2. No Power
3. You
4. Her

Possible Combinations

1. You have no power, she has no power

This is the attitude characterized by guys saying "You probably won't like
me, and there's nothing that either of us can do about it." When people
have very low self esteem, combined with learned helplessness they often
use these kinds of words. This is the situation when a guy thinks for
whatever reason that he's not valuable as a person, and that no woman COULD
want him.

2. You have no power, she has the power

Characterized by "I don't know what to do. I really like this girl, but I
don't think she likes me. I want her to like me really bad. I think about
it all the time. I have to figure out how to get her attention and impress
her." These are the kinds of thoughts of most guys who I come into contact

3. You have power, she has power

Characterized by "I like myself and believe that I'm a great choice for
her, and I think that she's a desirable woman. I'm going to give her the
opportunity to take advantage of being with me. If she accepts, great... if
she chooses not to, that's fine because I can always find another woman."
This is probably the healthiest mind set, but there are a few problems
here. Namely, that most women AND men have a whole truckload of personal
issues, neurosis, and inner-children-needing-a-hug, so it doesn't come down
this way often.

4. You have power, she has no power

Characterized by "I am the best thing that every happened to you. I take
what I want, and you'll enjoy it. If I want your opinion, I'll give it to
you. If you are too stupid to see the opportunity that is in front of you
(me) then you're an idiot, and nothing can be done to help you... later."
Clifford and I were talking on the telephone a few days ago about the new
Motley Crue book. You may have read my newsletter a few weeks ago about
that book and what those guys are like. Clifford and I agree that these
guys act like complete animals, and yet they bang ALL of the world's
hottest chicks... from groupies to super-models. These guys are the
undisputed champs of moral bankruptcy in my book. But they sure get laid a
lot. lol... they also spend a lot of time in jail and rehab, so think twice
about modeling them! Even though these guys aren't the best models for
children, I think that some useful lessons can be learned from them. More

OK, so now we have four general situations 1) You have no power, she has no
power, 2) You have no power, she has the power, 3) You have power, she has
power, 4) You have power, she has no power.

If you really take a moment and think about it, I'll bet that you'll find,
as I have, that most problems that guys run into with women come from them
believing that THEY HAVE NO POWER. In many situations, us guys just act
like she has power and we don't.

One of the biggest shifts in success for me came when I just started acting
like I was the one with more power in every situation.

For instance, if I've just started talking to a woman in a coffee shop, and
I want to get her number, I'll say... "Hey, it was nice meeting you... I'm
going to get back to my friends..." then I turn back around and say "Do you
have email?" If she says yes, then I take out my pen and have her write
down her email, and then tell her to write her name, and then her number
too. It's usually pretty smooth. But maybe half the time, she'll say "Well,
I don't give my number out..." or "Why don't you give me yours..." or whatever.

Originally, I was stumped because I just gave away all my power to her.
Amazingly enough, I would just kind of think "OK, well I guess I'll just
have to give her my number and hope she calls..."

I was giving my power away (I later learned that this is very unattractive
to women in general).

Now, if a woman says "Why don't you give me your number and I'll call you"
I do something COMPLETELY different. As a matter of fact, it's almost
comical in its simplicity.

I simply point to the piece of paper and say "It's OK, go ahead write it down."

If I get more resistance, I say "Just write it down, I'll only call you ten
times a day."

Now, I'm not perfect, but in most situations with women, I keep my power
for myself. I assume that I can handle the situation better than she can.
And by just telling her what I want her to do in a calm, confident manner,
I almost always get the number.

Of course, this is just one example.

Another is if I'm with a woman and she begins to get upset or emotional
about something. Back when I gave my power away most of the time, I would
let these kinds of things bother me, and I wouldn't know how to act. Now, I
just smile and say "How do you REALLY feel about it?" in a sarcastic tone.
Or I laugh and say "You're so cute when you're mad."

I could go on and on about different situations and techniques, but I'm
trying to get the idea across that in every situation, you can approach it
by keeping your power. Don't give up your power!

If you're having trouble in an area, sit down and ask yourself "How would I
act if I kept my power? How would I act if I had the power in that
situation?" Then list ten ways you could act that would keep your power for

***Next Concept Of Late***


For at least a year or two now, I've been trying to figure out a simple way
to communicate how I act around women, and how some of the guys that I know
who are killer pick up artists act.

Now I have it!


Of course, there are a few minor modifications you'll need to make, but go
with me here.

How does a big brother act around his bratty little sister? It's a
combination of "I love you and would kill anyone who messed with you" and
"I tolerate you, but I'm going to make fun of you and tease you to
entertain myself."

It's proven difficult for me to explain how you can bust a woman's balls in
such a way that she still feels like you like her... lol. But maybe this is
the frame that will open up the concept a little bit more.

The real trick when teasing a woman and busting her balls is to do it in a
completely calm, confident, indifferent way. Women are great at detecting
FRAUDS. And it really doesn't matter what kind of fraud you're trying to
run... women just get uptight if you're not being who you are.

I've seen guys say things to women that I actually could not believe. I've
watched my buddy Rick ask at least 50 women if they're bisexual now... and
usually within about 3 minutes of meeting them. But he's so calm and
natural, that they're usually fascinated and want to talk about it with him.

I've also watched other guys try to imitate him by asking women if they're
bisexual and get shot down with cold, offended looks on their faces. What's
the difference?

The other guys were frauds... they weren't comfortable around bisexual
women, and they weren't comfortable asking. So the women picked up the
discomfort, their fraud detectors went off, and they in effect said "You're
weird, get away from me..."

Now, if you use the frame that the woman is your bratty little sister, then
you'll feel comfortable talking about anything in front of her.

I've heard many guys say that honesty and directness is attractive. And I
agree with this idea... as long as you're being honest about something that
the woman finds attractive. If you're saying "I have to be honest here...
I've never been on a date with a woman, and I had to masturbate before I
picked you up" it's probably not going to be the sexiest thing she's ever
heard. lol... make sure you don't be too forward about your insecurities at
the beginning of the relationship!

But if you're acting like she's your bratty little sister, you'll say
whatever is on your mind, but you'll do it in a 'cool' way. Just like an
older brother would.

Also, you won't let any of her ploys to control or test you even get past
the radar. You'll just say "Look, stop it. That won't work on me..."

*There is a way to bust a woman's balls royally, while at the same time
communicating that you like her. Be creative and think up some of your own.

Which leads me to my next idea...


A lot of what goes on here on Cliff's List is one guy giving an idea, and
then another guy saying "That won't work" or "I disagree."

It always turns my stomach to see this, because in many of the cases, the
person offering the idea has given a whole situation and way of dealing
with it, only to have some other guy negate the value by saying "I disagree".

The flip side of this is guys who don't have any experience arguing the
logical reasons why something is either a good or bad idea.

Now, I'm not perfect (even though I talk like I think I am sometimes) but

There's a way to use anything that you learn so it's effective, and there's
a way to fuck any good idea up as well.

Let me use the example of approaching a woman and saying "Excuse me..."

Now, I keep seeing this one come up on this list, and it's actually funny
to me now.

Does anyone remember that over 90% of your communication isn't the words
you use, but the tone and body language»?

You can say the words "Excuse me" and have them mean all kinds of things.
If you say them with sarcasm, you can be saying "You're being a bitch"...
if you say them with a charming tone, you can communicate "Ohhh, hellllllo
you sexy thing. You caught my attention, and I'm going to have to come down
off my high horse to talk to you..."

Think about it.

You can also say "Excuse me" with a tone that says "I'm scared to talk to
you, and I need you to excuse the interruption because I have low self
esteem... and if you don't then I can't talk to you..." lol.

Are you with me here?


Do yourself a favor, and learn how to think both ways whenever you learn
anything... ask yourself "How could I use this idea so it would work?" and
also "What ways should I avoid using this idea because it probably won't work?"

I was talking to my best friend the other night on the phone, and we were
laughing about all the funny shit that I've said to women when meeting
them. I used to try weird things just to see if they would still talk to
me. And they always worked, because I seemed cool and confident when I used

Every idea, technique, concept, etc. is useful in some context, and not
useful in another. Try to figure out how you can make it work for you...

And when you read someone on here saying "That won't work" just try to
imagine how it COULD work, and the context that it would work in.

Next idea...


This is a hard one, because describing non-verbal behavior with words is
like trying to describe how to play a song.

It's SOOOOO much easier just to watch and learn.

Anyway, most of your communication is not the words you use, or even the
tone. It's your 'body language».' If you get your body language» together,
the rest becomes secondary.

Yes, I'm saying that the guys who have mastered the body language» aspect
need very little more to be successful.

Here are some of the things that I've done:
1) Watch some James Bond.
2) Eliminate nervous ticks and gestures, automatic reactions, and emotional
3) Move more slowly and confidently. Turn head slower, blink slower, etc.
4) Improve posture. Pretend you're Super Man (A Tony Robbins Original)
5) Watch Gone With the Wind, Streetcar Named Desire, Top Gun

***Most important Make friends with guys who are good with women, and go
watch them in action! This is they key! I recommend that you find at LEAST
5 local guys and make friends with them, then go out with them on a regular
basis. Don't get in their way, don't say anything while they're working,
don't be a dumb ass, just watch. And buy them dinner every time (but no

I can't stress enough how important it is to learn how to BEHAVE in a more
attractive way. Women are somewhere around TEN TIMES as sensitive to subtle
body language» clues as men are. Most guys have NO IDEA what they are
communicating to women with their appearance, dress, gestures, etc.

I'm telling you, body language» is MOST of the game. You can know every
great line in the book, but if you don't have the body language» down, it
can fail every time.

Next concept...


In every situation there is a way to subtly or overtly communicate that you
are the one who is selecting her.

Just like my idea that you can increase attraction in every situation, I
also believe that you can communicate that you're the one doing the
selecting (which, of course, increases the attraction).

1) When you first meet her say "You seem different from the other shallow
women that work here..."
2) Mention that your ex girlfriend called you (if it's true, of course) and
that she wanted to see you, but that you chose her instead tonight.
3) If you find something that she likes, tell her "If you're a good girl,
I'll give you some more..."

Now, these are subtle ways of saying, in effect "I'm the one who's in
control. I'm desirable and I know it... but I'm going to pay attention to
you because I choose to."

Do you get this?

Most guys behave in a way that communicates "I'm a lucky guy to be getting
attention from you. I'll do whatever you want so you don't leave. I know
that I'm fortunate to be with you, and I'm insecure because you might leave
at any time."

This goes back to what I said earlier about giving away your power.

So think up some ways that you can communicate the idea that YOU'RE THE ONE

If you overdo this one, you can come off as insecure and arrogant... so
make sure to keep it on the subtle side. But used in small amounts, this is

If you believe it, she'll believe it.

OK, I'm done....



Last night was very interesting.  I went out with some friends, including
HBbarbie.  HBbarbie is basically the prom queen I never got to fuck.  She
hooked up with her supergoodlooking jerk BF at 14 and has been putting up
with his crap (cheating, drugs, verbal abuse) ever since.  Now she's 25,
and they have 2 kiddies together.

So we show up to bar #1 to go meet the girls and have a beer before going
downtown.  I hug HBmel and deliberately give HBbarbie a pathetic, wimpy
hug.  She goes, "What was that?!"  So I now have permission to give her a
full-blown hug complete with feeling her up, and she goes gaga for it.

I go to the men's room, and when I come out, I pretend to be a stranger to
HBbarbie and hit her with, "HI, I'm sorry to interrupt you here but you are
just so...absolutely sexy and I really wanted to meat you.  My name is
Steph."  Whenever I use that line on women that I already know they just
MELT.  With new women it's hit-and-miss.  So I do a little dirty-dancing
with her, run 'adventurer vs explorer' on her, and pull away immediately to
go join the others at the bar.

Well, needless to say, at this point she's looking at me the way I always
wished she would in high school!  This is the first time we've seen each
other in 2 years, and I'm now way past my old dreaded AFC days.  She's
using everything she can to get kino on me, from handing me a cigarette so
she can put her arm around me, to bumping into me by accident, and just
plain grabbing my ass.  At this point I'm trying to decide, "Am I going to
cum on her big perfect tits or all over her white pearly teeth
tonight?"  She's massaging my neck, and I'm kissing hers and doing some
very overt patterning and hypnosis on her.

Time to go downtown, so we get in the cars to get the baby sitter and bring
her over to HBbarbie's place to watch her kids while we go downtown (her
husband is out with his friends tonight).  I was worried that going to her
place would ruin her DDB state (kids can be a nasty reminder that you're
married!).  I was right.  She went right into her usual role of mommy and
submissive wife.  But I figured that once we got downtown to the club, I
could get her back into DDB.

Now, there were 3 baby sitters at HBbarbie's house, and they were all 16
and HOT HOT HOT.  So I started flirting with one of them, hoping to get a
bit of a rise from HBbarbie.  Plus, I'm very experimental.  Plus, I wanted
to fuck the sixteen year-old!

The flirting's going extremely well.  I've got my arm around her, etc., and
she's really into me. I'm 25 but I look 18.  My stupid AFC buddy notices my
success and makes a joke, "Steph, don't you think she's a little young for
you???"  The HB 16 pulls back as everyone starts ragging on me to "leave
the baby sitter alone, Steph".  JEEEEZ!  I don't need this at all.  HB 16
goes, "how old ARE you?" Me, "25".

She's feeling very uncomfortable so I go, "Do you believe in re-incarnation?"
her "Yes"
me "So do I.  And in this life, my body is about 9 years older than yours.
But our souls are THOUSANDS of years old.  Who knows, your soul could be
MILLIONS of years older than mine!"
her (smiling and loosening up completely)
me "Got a light?"


So we (the adults, not the sitter and me!) all go downtown.  I swear, I am
never going to a stupid bar again!  Too loud for me!  I know that alot of
you guys do good in bars, making out on the dance floor and such, and I
used to do that a few years ago too.  But I need to connect with
women.  I'm a softie, what can I say : )

I do SS because it really suits my personality.  I was raised by 4 women,
no father.  I like the romance, and the long walks in the forest, hand in
hand, picnics, I'm into it all.  You can't softly whisper sweet caresses
into her ear in a club.  In bars, you have to shout in her ears.  Try
shouting the incredible-connection pattern at the top of your lungs in a bar!

Anyway, I couldn't get HBbarbie back into state for the life of me.  If we
hadn't stopped at her stupid house on the way home (!!!), and gone to a
loud, packed, disgusting bar, things would have turned out differently.  Oh
well.  Any suggestions?

Stephane, commenting on Cliff's MotleyCrue Theme  ("I figured it would only
work on a really hot chick so while at this new trendy happy hour bar, I
picked out this tall brunette in a shiny silver mini dress.  I felt I was
in for trouble because as I came up to her she started to freeze me out
before I even opened my mouth.  Instantly, as such, I figured I really had
nothing to lose now so I said "Hi, my name is Clifford, I have a nice dick
and I'm a great kisser."  She started burning and was totally pissed off --
she ran over to the security guard and wanted to get me thrown out."):

HA HA HA HA HA!  You are a fucking character and a half, Cliffy!  I am glad
you're experimenting with this stuff so I don't have to!  But I enjoy
reading this shit to no end!  Any self-respecting decent woman would have
(should have!) done the same thing.  You sure know how to pick 'em Cliff!
The dark side of seduction has always intrigued me too, and while I
consider myself to be experimental, I'm gonna stay over here on the comfy,
romantic, LIGHT side of seduction!  Sarge on Cliff!!  I want to see you do
this, too (from a distance!).  It's a tough job, but SOMEBODY'S got to do it!

Stephane commenting on Cliff's comment ("So this didn't work for me (maybe
I am missing a piece of the puzzle"):
Yes. You are not Motley Crue!  But you should have been!

Stephane commenting on Cliff's Comment ("I also keep coming back to Hugh
Hefner.  Women are always espousing their monogamy philosophies, yet here's
this 75 year old guy who is simultaneously and continuously with seven hot
women and he has become the idol of the L.A. social scene."):

Hugh Hefner is our GOD. Period.

Stephane commenting on RIO ("Rio (Comment on Peta "Peta provides the
following BLOW JOB ETIQUETTE FOR MEN, FROM WOMEN") Geez, Cliff -- what are
you getting soft? Another reason why not to have chycks on this list, but
'nuff said on that. Time to take this brawd to school"):

I just want to say to all you guys in her defence that "Blow job etiquette"
was not written by Peta, and nor did she claim to have written it!  She was
COMMENTING on it.  And her comments were pretty damn close to what WE were
all thinking!  I think that intelligent, open-minded women like Peta should
be welcome here.  It's obvious she has something to offer.  Rio, reading
your post gives me the impression that you hate women deeply.  I just think
that perhaps it's your attitude that's attracting dumb, flaky, insecure,
shallow chicks into your life, thus reinforcing your negative, macho,
overly-alpha attitude.  For example "RIO Uhm... If I  am going to go
through all the protocol of getting an HB, you bet your feminist little ass
you best give oral if I damn well want it."

To me, the protocol taught in SS is to treat women like they are PEOPLE,
and to stand up to them when they flake, without supplicating and putting
women on a pedestal. You know what I mean, so let's keep going

(Commenting on Rio "...ultimately real guys who are true to themselves want
one thing - sex. It is all men's birthright to want this, without a
supplicating mentality that I'm supposed to be grateful that you are doing
me some kind of  favor."):

This is where I have to attack you : )  I want more than sex, and so do
most of the guys and gals (people!) that I know.  And being grateful does
not = supplication.  Being in a state of gratitude feels really good.  You
should try it!  Hopefully (probably) your girls will reciprocate. OK, keep

(Commenting on "RIO I'll fart if I damned well please."):

And she will drop your disgusting ass if she damned well pleases too, so
you both win!  See, to me this is just gonna get you brawds who have no
self-respect.  Unless they have a fetish for bathing in your smelly
gasses.  You can have those girls.  I don't want em.

(Commenting on: "8. Having my period does not mean that it's "hummer week"
- get it through your head - I'm bloated and I feel like shit so no, I
don't feel particularly obligated to blow you just because YOU can't have
sex right now.
RIO No problem -- I'll simply bang some other chick."):
Once again, this attitude is gonna keep you from dating quality (inside and
outside) women.  Any self-respecting chick wouldn't put up with this, and
should never have to.  If she's feeling sick, why don't you make her some
tea and give her a back rub instead of 'banging some other chick'?  She
might do the same in return when YOU are feeling sick.

(Commenting on "15. When you hear your friends complain about how they
don't get blow jobs often enough, keep your mouth shut. It is inappropriate
to either sympathize or brag.
RIO Men should make no excuses for their desires. It's brawds like this
that have created a lot of resentment from men in America, and inspired so
many seduction materials and writing on how to get beyond this crap we
unfortunately are fed growing up in this country."):

I agree 1000%.  I would love it if my girls would brag to her friends that
I give lots of good head!  Actually, that sort of thing has gotten me laid,
threesomes, etc. in the past. More comments:

(Commenting on: "RIO Only a dumb eunuch would listen to her and follow her

I have to agree (and so does Peta, BTW) that those rules are too limiting
for both the women and men.

(Commenting on: "RIO The absolute perfect woman should turn into a pizza
after you get done banging her, but that will most likely not happen this

Pizza?  What do you mean?  I honestly have never heard this expression
before. Care to elaborate?  Pizza?!  Does this mean that she's all bloodied
and bashed (hey, the way you talk, this is almost a fair assumption!), or
does it mean that she is spent/tired/satisfied?  Or maybe you mean she
should LITERALLY turn into pizza?  If so, that's a funny joke...ok, I get it.

Anyway, I try to refrain from these kind of comments, and from attacking
people in general, but in your case, you really need a good kick in the
ass.  If you're going to get all defensive on me, don't bother commenting

back.  If, however, you have the RARE ABILITY to actually question your own
beliefs, as well as learn from other people's feedback/criticism, then
please reply.  I'm just dying to hear what you think of my comments, as
well as anybody else reading this.

(New Comments from Stephane):
There seems to be this unspoken (not always unspoken!) theme in our little
seduction cults (ASF and pretty much everywhere) that "Treat a woman like
shit and she'll love you for it".

Sadly, alot of women ARE attracted to bad boys and such, and acting like a
jerk WILL get you laid!  I read a theory on why this is so.  It says that
women that love assholes simply love them because that's what they learned
while growing up, so it's familiar.  That, unconsciously, these women
equate jerk behavior with
love.  Fighting=love.  Yelling=passion.  Jealousy=proof that he loves
you.  So what men do, knowing this, is deliberately act like jerks to
trigger these responses in women, and call it "utilization".

I'm here to challenge this idea.  Do we really want to live in a world like
this?  Do we really want to be around women who need to be treated
disrespectfully?  How does it feel to "treat em like crap"?  Does it bring
peace into our lives?  Those of you who are self-proclaimed jerks, if all
of a sudden, every man on Earth stopped being a jerk and started treating
women with respect and being pleasant and kind, what would happen?

What would happen is that women would have to take a good, hard look at
what turns them on, and they would be forced to develop a little
self-awareness.  Because all of a sudden, all the jerks would disappear,
and they wouldn't have much choice, would they?

Cliff's Comments:  What is, is.  Don't expect anyone else to change -- the
only thing you have control over is yourself.  There will always be jerks
and there will always be men who will always be treating women badly
because, like you say, for some that works and gets them the results they
want.  You would think that at this point in the world's development and
evolution we would have eliminated war but the newspapers everyday point
out that that's not happening.  And in those situations you are generally
talking of governments composed of numerous intelligent people -- so
expecting any mass change among individuals is pretty unlikely in my view.

Stephane continues:
You all talk about being ALPHA (Well, mostly on ASF anyway).  You wanna be
alpha?  OK, then don't let yourself be sucked in by these pathetic women
that make you feel that you have to act like a fucking DICKHEAD to get
laid!  You wanna be alpha?  Don't wanna make excuses for your
desires?  Good!  Then how about taking a good, hard look at what it is that
you desire in the first place!  How about wanting things that are more
worth wanting?  Because alot of us seem to want the very thing that will
make you miserable in the first place  Stupid flaky chycks.  Notches on
your belt.  Bragging rights, to be able to say, "I fucked 1000 girls, I now
have aids, my dick is falling off, and I'm an old-wrinkled asshole piece of
shit VIRUS."

Ross, I feel for you, buddy.  Speed-seduction is so misunderstood, it's not
even funny!  It must be very frustrating for you at times.  Then again,
look at all the shit Bandler had to go through.  You are both misunderstood
geniuses.  You are like the Eminem's of the self-help community : )  (I'm
not saying that Eminem is a genius, BTW!)  Rock on!


Dj eclypz:
It seems to me that people on this list have moved their energies to other
things, and meanwhile I have been lagging behind still caught up in the
whole ideology behinds Sis's and Ross's methods of attraction and seduction
(woops not to mention Mys's). If you find as I have that coming to
understand different models of this complex subject would lead you to a
place where you have more of a mastery of the skills presented here, then
go ahead and join me as I take one more look back at the different sides
(that have now essentially become one) and take note as I also throw in a
liberal amount of my own experience. If this is something that you aren't
interested in, then by all means look for the next line that represents a
new or continuing thread.

First, a story (I love stories):
This all came up for me one day when I was talking with this younger woman
around 18 (I'm 25 going on thirty), and I was working on my ability to
pattern, and discover a process inside of her for falling in love, and to
bring to the forefront that experience again, with me in the picture.

Well, if you may or may not be able to notice, simply the words I'm using
here might lead you to believe that I was not coming from the right place
in order to interact with this person in a  way that would bring me to a
stronger connection.

Comments like, "you sound like a therapist" came out and I paid attention
to them long enough to ignore them and continue with what I was doing.

What was my intent here?

I later reaffirmed my intent was to become more comfortable speaking in a
way that touched on her processes, but more importantly I was simply caught
up in creating elaborate descriptions of states, going on the principle
that to describe something in detail and to direct someone to experience
them is equivalent.

Well, I got that outcome, I learned to create a better experience by
describing it well and keeping the conversation directed in a way that made
her either go along with me, or shut off and feel uncomfortable.

Well, as you may have guessed she shut off and became uncomfortable, or at
least that was my generalization of it, and it was quite a useful one in my

Anyways, an awkward silence followed as I watched her eyes and noticed that
she was looking for a way out of the conversation. At that point I realized
I had my outcome but had my outcome been to attract her to me, I wasn't
being FLEXIBLE, and I certainly wasn't paying attention to WHAT SHE WAS
GIVING ME, until now.

At that point I looked away, breaking state, and figuring she was getting
ready to get up and leave, I reached into my pocket and pulled out my balls.

Not those silly, but rather those Chinese hand exercising balls, the metal
ones with the chimes in them.

I started to do the exercise, and she instantly became intrigued. "I've
seen those things before and always wondered what they are, they sound so
neat, and it looks really cool when you roll them real fast. What are they
for?" I went on to demonstrate how to use them, and the chiming sound
instantly put her to ease, as she told me about her grandparents house
having chimes outside of the window of the room she would sleep in.

I asked her if she would like to try it. She responded eagerly and before I
handed them over I couldn't resist to tell her that she had to be really
careful with my balls, because they are really gentle, and that most women
especially seemed to not be delicate enough. Most men on the other hand
were able to be really gentle because for some reason they knew, that YOU
HAVE TO BE REALLY DELICATE. She was cracking up at the seams as I later
realized I was actually being ambiguous about something so sensitive, no
pun intended (there I go again).

So she dropped them a few times, but with her right hand (her dominant one,
by the way.  She was amazed that I figured out she was right handed, but it
was simply that she reached out for them and first tried them with her
right hand) she became quite capable at rolling them in her palm without
touching them together, and that interesting chime sound and the shiny
metal of the near perfect orbs, just seemed to send her somewhere
completely different.

Of course,  I found an opportunity to try some more patterning (hey, it was
my outcome!) and so as she practiced I told her how the sound could just
relax her like her grandparents' wind chimes, and how she could almost look
at the balls and notice how it looks like two people about to fall madly in
love with each other. She looked up with confusion (who knows if that's
right and it doesn't really matter) and I said, "that's right... because
this one right here, is you, and this one is me (wow, was I being direct or
what? Hey, you're not supposed to be direct when you're doing SS, so I must
have not been seducing her!!).

I went on to explain that this is us going on in our normal lives, just
going around and doing things and just living life. And while it seems we
are running away from each other, every now and then we bump into each
other like that (right at that moment she bumped the two balls together and
was amazed at my psychic powers which I don't have!) but every now and then
we go around and around and around, over and over again, in perfect HARMONY
(OH geez, that's her name isn't it!). And the chimes, it's almost like the
chimes you hear when you have a great conversation. It's like you chime in
and say something and I say something that resonates with you, it makes the
perfect sound inside of you and so we continue, almost dancing together, in
a dance of seduction.

At that point I ask her if she likes to dance, as I stopped her from
playing with the balls, and took them back from her (Oh my gosh I just took
something away from her, that was way too direct for seduction, whatever
the hell that is).

We got lost into a conversation about dancing to the rhythm of a song that
feels really good. And I told her I'm a DJ and that I play at raves. She
lit up and said she had never been to one before but that it would be fun.
So I then future paced her going to a rave with me, and watching me
perform, and looking me in the eyes, and noticing how I almost take control
of her very essence and move her to a place of total rapture (I then asked
her if she knew what rapture was and since she only kind of knew, I went on
to describe a very detailed experience using not her exact trance words,
but doing what I could to notice her reaction to my words AND THEN DOING

Then I came out directly and asked her if she knew of a song that made her
feel really good because it reminded her of something.

I then directly taught her about how anchoring works (ooops, I wasn't being
covert! I didn't sneek it on her, so I must have been doing something else
other than SS!) and I anchored the feeling of total rapture to me mixing
records and just guiding her through this experience. At this point, she
asked me if I turn people into chickens on stage, like the hypnotists do,
and I told her that I don't usually do that unless they really want to be a

At that point I ignored her implied desire to continue the conversation and
told her I had to go and take care of some business (which always is a fun
thing to say because I'm not being direct and telling her exactly, oh my
gosh, could I be acting mysterious?).  As I went to shake her hand good bye
she took my hand, and asked me if I could fire off that anchor once again,
and I said,"How do you not already know that I am firing off that anchor
RIGHT NOW (as I looked at her shoulder and imagined squeezing it and going
into the feeling myself). Her eyes dilated and I don't know if the anchor
was real or not, and I didn't really care because I was getting a response
and that's all that matters! She immediately dug into her purse and gave me
her cell and home number, all the while apologizing if she wasn't there to
take the call and that she would call me right back. I didn't respond at
all to that, and just kept looking into her eyes, reached down, took the
sheet of paper, and walked off without saying goodbye (once again, I didn't
give her what she wanted so I must have been doing something else, whatever
that is).

I called her a couple of days later and she is going to be my groupie for
the night. I told her so, and said she would have to apply and that an
informal interview would take place tonight, and in a joking way, I told
her I think she might have what it takes to be a part of the team!

Ok, so if you're still with me, you might be asking, how am I going to wrap
this up?

Good question...

I stumbled upon flexibility. If I hadn't have stumbled upon it, I would
have remained so focused on my previous outcome, that I would have missed
out on the opportunity to recognize that there is no one right way to do
something. In retrospect, I was the performer that Mystery promotes, I was
holding back like Sis always talks about, and I was creating states by
describing them in detail like Ross suggests.

If you look at the big picture of all of this, you might find as I have,
that it isn't about any one thing that I did, but rather it was the idea
that I accidentally was open to trying anything, I was being absolutely
flexible. If I looked at SS as a thing, as a nominalization, if I looked at
the other methods like Sis and Mystery present as a "thing", my choices in
what I did would have been limited to the boxes that these things must fit
in in order to call them things. But they're not things, they are just
ideas, processes, that change every second just by thinking about them.

I'm not going to speak for Sis, or Mystery, or Ross. I'm going to speak for
myself. In gaining the ability to do anything that is taught here on this
list or anywhere at all!!!, I have to make a conscious effort at first to
incorporate them, and in that sense it might be useful to dissect any one
thing in order to understand how it fits with who I already am, and what
I'm already doing. And then at some point I just forget about whatever I
was doing. I allow myself to use this new resource (whether it is a new
state, a way of looking at things differently, or whether it is a card
trick, or a digital camera).

I'm a whore, guys, and I'm proud of it. I will try anything, and if it
works for me I will add it to my bag, and if it doesn't I will try anything

I might be stating the obvious when I say that I think almost everything
presented on this list is useful, and that if I find it useful to me, and I
want to incorporate something new, then I will gladly do so. But I don't do
anything, I just learn new things and call it all, call everything,
something new that I do.

So it's not a question of what is the best ideology, or what is the best
product, but rather how flexible are you willing to be in order to achieve
the outcome or the compelling future that you desire for yourself.

Mystery came back a while ago and mentioned something about envy. He likes
to create a state of envy in the women he finds attractive. I think we all
want to do that! That certainly is a useful state to arouse in someone else
whether it is a woman or whether it is a good friend, or whatever. So it's
not a question of whether or not you want to create such a state, but how
would you like to create it? There are a million ways, but for the sake of
my wrap up I will choose three. Before I write them though, I want to
extend all three guys I'm referring to to comment on this because this will
be my generalization and in no way reflects the truth (whatever that is).

So here goes:
Sis, Mys, Ross, and I are all sitting at a booth in a restaurant, and a
beautiful woman walks by. Instantly, Mys whispers, watch how envious I'm
going to make her by performing this. Then Sis leans in and says, watch how
envious she will be when I approach her with the confidence and ease with
which I carry myself. Ross leans in and says, go ahead, both of you, and I
will model these behaviors you present, and incorporate them into my
behavior so I can create that state in her.

I lean in and say, hey, after you guys are all done, and after all of you
get her phone number, I will go over as she's finishing her food, and I
will say,

Hey, are you going to finish those fries?


Clifford wrote:
> Women as Animals
> I picked out this tall brunette in a shiny silver
> mini dress.  I felt I was in for trouble because
> as I came up to her she started to freeze me
> out before I even opened my mouth.

Harrr!  I started working on what I call my "defroster."  I typically get
liquid nitrogen from most wimmin I encounter, and it just so happened at the
gym, this short blonde was sending me some sub-zero ice... so I just made
sure to walk slowly in front of the stair master she was on and said a very
deliberate and focused way, "Good afternoon.  How are you."  I guess she felt
she had to respond to such a friendly greeting, then I just followed with
"Have a great workout" before continuing on my way.  I continued to see her
at different stations in the gym and would make a brief bon mot or some
other statement to her.  I was ready to close when I spotted another girl I
had been working (she's recently emigrated to the USA from Mexico and speaks
little English) so I invited her to lunch, in Spanish.  I was at a
disadvantage, since I can't do trance phrases and the such in other
languages... but made her blush and giggle.  She said she would like to but
she has a tight work and college schedule.  I found out she works part-time
at a store in my office complex and every time I enter she smiles (she
normally keeps a stoic and mildly hostile expression, so I did crack some
ice there... just need to keep working it).  Anyway, I saw the blonde the
next day in the parking garage.  She was talking with some guy... I'll
assume he was a co-worker... and didn't seem to notice me, but I will
continue working her as well.
> She started burning and was totally pissed off -- she
> ran over to the security guard and wanted to get me
> thrown out.  I told him all I did was introduce myself
> to her and he told me he knew her a long time and
> believed her.  Fortunately he was cool

To run to the security guard shows that you really creeped her out major
league.  But at least you were able to patch things up somewhat with the
guard.  When I'm out, especially when I go out alone, I always stop for
friendly banter with the door crew, guard(s) and bouncer(s).  It gets lots
of mileage and gives me someone to talk to should the girls be particularly
hard to talk to.
> I also keep coming back to Hugh Hefner.  Women
> are always espousing their monogamy philosophies,
> yet here's this 75 year old guy who is simultaneously
> and continuously with seven hot women

I think this goes with the philosophy that women look at a guy who has a
woman as safe, since if he is good enough for the other woman, he's
definitely good enough for her.  Alternatively, many wimmin think that if a
guy is alone, there must be something wrong with him.  I remember going to a
local restaurant with one of the models I photograph.  I had a great time
flirting with the young waitresses.  However, when I returned two weeks
later alone and commented to one of the girls, "You really look beautiful
today" she freaked out and the other female staff kept their distance.  The
male staff had me feeling like a cat in the dog pound... I had to put on my
"Planet of the Apes" persona to get on top of the situation and establish
alpha dominance over the guys.

I found a young woman in the "friends only" section of the personal ads.  I
figure worst case scenario she makes a good wing when I'm in need of some
sarging.  Best case, I get to de-bone her.


(Commenting on "Clifford:  It's been a nagging thought that has grown and
continues to
play on my mind.  Recently, I have been reading "The Dirt" by Motley Crue.
And before you say "Well, yeah, but they are rock stars," note that this
started well before they were famous.  These guys' seduction techniques
appear to have consisted in its entirety of "Hi, nice ta meet cha, bend
over."  The accessibility they seem to have to having sex with attractive
women, is eye opening.  Consider that these women are literally lining up,
one after the other, for a quick sexual thrill with no intimacy involved.
I am not saying all women are like this, but I am certain that all women
have similar structures and accessing those structures efficiently
intrigues me."):

GoneSavage  You know, I had a college radio show three years ago, that
with a little effort and some scamming, allowed me to meet and hang-out
backstage with a lot of bands when they passed through Atlanta.  These
were mostly modern rock bands, some pretty big names, and I can tell you
that to the best of my observation and questioning, they are NOT having
women line up for sex.  Maybe the rock-star-sex-god attitude has shifted a
bit since the 80's; maybe. I mean, there's been a couple instances where I
could see something was obviously about to happen, and once I was on a
tour bus that felt like it was about to tip from the pounding some chick
was getting in the back.  But this is Atlanta, and everyone has stories
from somewhere else - LA, for example.  Once I asked the vocalist for a
pretty well known band why they don't tour Atlanta more often and he told
me, "We hate Atlanta, we never get any pussy in Atlanta."  So, it makes me
wonder how much can be attributed to the sexual disposition of different
cities.  I also briefly hung out with Tommy Lee after his new band Methods
of Mayhem had a show.  Chicks definitely weren't lining up to fuck him.
However, there were a few older chicks there who wanted him to sign Motley
Crue LP's and shit, so I'm sure he pulled something.   Plus I bet there is
a lot of exaggerated braggadoccio that goes into writing a book about the
sexual exploits of your own band.

(Commenting on "Clifford:  I also keep coming back to Hugh Hefner.  Women
are always
espousing their monogamy philosophies, yet here's this 75 year old guy who
is simultaneously and continuously with seven hot women and he has become
the idol of the L.A. social scene.  It seems like everyone, whether
directly or covertly, looks up to this guy -- men, women, his children
(just kidding), everyone.  Again, you may point to the money and fame, but
I have to believe that there's more to this.  I have always been intrigued
by the "dark side" of seduction, and I will be learning more.  Comments?"):

GoneSavage   I talk about Hugh sometimes with women.  Usually they notice
the A&E Biography and the "Once Upon A Time" tapes in my living room.  I
think it's great stuff; I talk about how he changed the prevailing sexual
attitude of the 50's, how his upbringing is analogous to mine, how he has
been attacked by so many institutions, how he works in bed in pajamas, the
amenities of the mansion, etc.  But I will tell you, Hugh is certainly not
the idol of the Athens, GA social scene.  I've been attacked for admiring
such a "womanizer" and "adulterer," someone who exploits and objectifies
women.  Whatever.  This is Athens, Georgia.

This brings me back to what I think of as geographical differences in
sexual attitudes, and what is normal sexual practices.  This is something
that NO ONE seems to talk about.  I find this odd, especially since we
have international members on this list. Every variation of every approach
is not going to have the same success rate universally. You can take the
best PUA from his city, put him in a different scene (a small rural town,
for example) and do you really think he can be just as successful?  I know
there is a lot to be said for personal flexibility.  But I think an equal
amount could be said for the prevailing social codes in different regions.
I've studied urban sociology and I definitely believe that each town,
city, neighborhood, etc. has its own disposition that affects its
inhabitants. Athens is a college town.  Nothing more, just a huge college.
And I admit, I do not have mastery of this scene.  I'm out
of place.  I know I could get more women if I conformed to the dominant
attitude, behavior, and attire of this city, but I'm not going to do that.
My game is so much tighter in the "big city" of Atlanta (1.5 hours away).
There I get recognized, respect, and I can get away with outrageousness.
Here there are different socio-sexual mores, which also differ from those
of other cities.   And I know that when I move to a "big city" in probably
a year, the PU tactics that I am honing now will be much more effective.

"In a small community it is the normal man, the man without eccentricity
or genius, who seems most likely to succeed.  The small community often
tolerates eccentricity.  The city, on the contrary, rewards it.  Neither
the criminal, the defective, nor the genius has the same opportunity to
develop his innate disposition in a small town, that he invariably finds
in a great city." --Robert Park

As far as the "dark side" of seduction, I think the best example is that
of a pimp.  This really is dark stuff, but I'm fascinated by the world of
true pimps.  I've read three books accounting the lives of real pimps, and
I suppose a review is in order.  There are a lot of analogous points
between the pimp game and ours.  BTW, I hate when a guy is dating multiple
women or he gets a couple numbers and he says, "Yeah, I'm a pimp."  That's
not a pimp.  You're a player at worst.  A playboy at best.

Anyway, here is my scenario from last night.  I'm at a dance club and I
spot a lovely redhead and her not-so-lovely friend sitting in a booth.
They seem to just be observing the action.  I sit down with a basic
introduction to them both.  Then I say,

"You know, I guess a lot of people make small talk with the whole 'What's
your major.  Where are you from' lines.  That's cool, but what I like to
ask is 'What's your story?'  Because your story can be anything!  It can
be as exciting as you want. And if it's really adventurous then, I'm
HB> I'm a  third year transfer student.
HB> And what do you study?
GS> Well, I'm a student of life, in the University of the Streets.
HB> And what's your major in this University?
GS> Well, I really shouldn't tell you, but I provide certain services, you
know,  for a certain price.
HB> Oh!  So you're a pimp!
GS> Yeah.  You looking for a job?
HB>  I've got a pimp back home.
GS>  So you're mailing him the money?  What's his name?
HB> Bob.
GS> Bob?  What kind of pimp name is that?  Listen, here's how it is.
We're going to cross old Bob.  He should have never let a pretty whore
like you out of his sight.  You've got a new pimp now,  GoneSavage.  I'm
you're sugar daddy and  I'm your agent.  I take care of you, I protect
you, you get thrown in jail, I'll be there with the green to bail you out.
Now, I want you on the streets 7 till 3, and right at 3, I want my money
on the dresser, or I put my foot in your ass.  You get 40 percent.
HB> I want 50 percent.
GS> 50 percent?  Who do you think you are.  My top bitch doesn't get 50
percent!  I don't even know if you can trick.  I need experienced whores
that are willing to do nasty things.
HB> Oh, I'm good.  The best.
GS> What's your specialty?  I want you in fishnet stockings, leather top,
and a whip in your hand.  You're my dominatrix.
HB>  Okay.
GS>  What about her?
HB> I've been working on her for awhile.
GS> Oh, I see how it is. U-huh. Good. I need girls that go both ways.
Maybe you two could work together. Two girls per customer.   You're going to be
my schoolgirl.  I
want you in a plaid skirt, white panties, and a white top, maybe some
GS> You know what we should do?  We should pick up another girl here to be
in our stable.
HB> Okay.
GS> So, what's you're type?
HB>  I dunno, what's you're type?
GS>   Well, there is this one girl.  She's very
cute, about 5'4", red hair, incredible smile.  I mean she is physically
appealing, definitely my type, and she
has a great sense of humor, but I suspect, at least I hope, she has more
going for her than just that.  The weird thing is, I haven't known her
very long, maybe fifteen minutes, and well, I'm really really shy, as you
can tell, and I just don't know what to say to her.
HB> Why don't you ask her to dance?

Well, I just take her hand and lead her onto the floor.  We didn't
actually dance, as soon as we were close, we kissed.  Not really
passionate, but a nice first kiss.  THEN, her friend physically grabs her
shoulder and pulls her off the dance floor.  Okay, I guess she has to tell
her something.  BUT, she proceeds to pull her entirely out of the club!  I
didn't follow.  But hey, the thing about a small college town, that is
sometimes a liability and sometimes an asset, is that you often see people


I want to point out a distinction regarding Mystery's envy theory.
While I understand, recognize and acknowledge the validity of Mystery's envy
theory, if a woman feels envy for you does that really translate into her
feeling attraction for you? Is it envy that translates into attraction or is
it admiration? And whether the answer is yes or no, would a better emotion to
evoke out of a women be admiration rather than envy?  I'd rather sleep with a
woman that admired me rather than envied me. Likewise, I am attracted to
women I admire, not envy.  There are women that I envy, but I would never be
attracted to them. now if the envy turns into admiration, then I can see how
it might turn into attraction. Also, it seems to me that eliciting a negative
emotion such as envy in a woman sooner or later will come back to bite you in
the ass.  I know that using a negative emotion (like envy) to attract females
works, and maybe I'm being naive, but isn't it wiser to use positive emotions
(like admiration) in order to attract females?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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