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I do volunteer work at the spineless-dickless-legless Bolshevik orphan’s center
8/28/01 5:01:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Rio (Responding to Stephane: "Pizza?  What do you mean?  I honestly have
never heard this expression before. Care to elaborate?  Pizza?!  Does this
mean that she's all bloodied and bashed (hey, the way you talk, this is
almost a fair assumption!), or does it mean that she is

It was referencing a surreal joke that Howard Stern made a while back. (The
ideal women shouldn't talk after sex, just turn into a pizza.)  I don't
know what sick thoughts you are having, but in no way do I mean anything
violent.  It was also the way it was posted that gave me the impression
that the blow job etiquette was her words.  I was just pointing out that
the blow job etiquette as posted is total nonsense. 'Enuff said.


Overall, a very good post by Sis; he's swinging gold lately.
Just a few comments/questions:
One of my favorite books is Gerry Spence's book "How To Argue And Win Every
Time" (I've listened to the audio tape version many, many times as well,
and recommend it highly). In that book, he talks about the concept of
personal power, and how most people give away their power to others."):

I've read that book and others by Spence, and I've met/consulted with a
lawyer (Richard Sherman, a very successful  attorney) who was Spence's
partner in practicing law for many years. He once asked him, "How did you
manage to get so successful?" to which Spence said, "I grew into the man
people expected me to be".

Interestingly, in that same book, Spence emphasizes the power of being
vulnerable to add to credibility.  That speaking about your fears and flaws
can actually sway a jury to believe your message more. As in, "Ladies and
gentlemen, I must say I stand here today somewhat afraid. I am afraid you
are not going to find my client a very likeable person. In fact, if you
have much sense, you probably will find him a nasty and even hateful human
being. I don't even like my client...

I am hoping that even though you probably won't like him...that you will
still follow your duty and keep a clear head..that you will allow the facts
to speak to look past my client's personality and see only the
truth about what you are going to learn.  Frankly, I'm not sure if I can do
that job as well as I would like, but if I can, I'm confident you will
properly find him not guilty.

That sort of thing...I don't know how this translates in dealing with
women, but I have some ideas.

(Commenting on: 3. You have power, she has power
Characterized by "I like myself and believe that I'm a great choice for
her, and I think that she's a desirable woman. I'm going to give her the
opportunity to take advantage of being with me. If she accepts, great... if
she chooses not to, that's fine because I can always find another woman."
This is probably the healthiest mind set, but there are a few problems
here. Namely, that most women AND men have a whole truckload of personal
issues, neurosis, and inner-children-needing-a-hug, so it doesn't come down
this way often."):

Good point. As Cliff puts it, you seldom meet the woman you want when you
first meet her, even if she is a terrific gal, because all the old
fear/pain/trust issues from her past will often pop up and get in the
way.  Same for us guys, later on in the relationships.

(Commenting on: "4. You have power, she has no power
For instance, if I've just started talking to a woman in a coffee shop, and
I want to get her number, I'll say... "Hey, it was nice meeting you... I'm
going to get back to my friends..." then I turn back around and say "Do you
have email?" If she says yes, then I take out my pen and have her write
down her email, and then tell her to write her name, and then her number
too. It's usually pretty smooth. But maybe half the time, she'll say "Well,
I don't give my number out..." or "Why don't you give me yours..." or whatever.
Originally, I was stumped because I just gave away all my power to her.
Amazingly enough, I would just kind of think "OK, well I guess I'll just
have to give her my number and hope she calls..."
I was giving my power away (I later learned that this is very unattractive
to women in general).
Now, if a woman says "Why don't you give me your number and I'll call you"
I do something COMPLETELY different. As a matter of fact, it's almost
comical in its simplicity.
I simply point to the piece of paper and say "It's OK, go ahead write it down."
If I get more resistance, I say "Just write it down, I'll only call you ten
times a day."
Now, I'm not perfect, but in most situations with women, I keep my power
for myself. I assume that I can handle the situation better than she can.
And by just telling her what I want her to do in a calm, confident manner,
I almost always get the number."):
Ok. This is not a dispute, a put down, an argument, but a legit question.
Because, as I see it, this is walking a fine line between pushing too far,
and getting a temporary agreement, but then getting all sorts of flaking
and pulling back on the other end of it.

So, here is my question for Sis, and on Tabby's life, it is a sincere
question.  How often, when you press THIS hard for the number, do you get
flaked on, no return calls, fake numbers, etc.?

I ask this because I think it is a fine line to walk between being powerful
and TOO powerful...into the realm of being scary or frightening.

Just to show I am NOT arguing, let me point out what I like:
1. Acting as if he is walking away and then suddenly turning back around
and making the pitch. This makes it seem as if his intent was NOT to hit on
her, but he suddenly re-thought it and decided to give her a chance! I
think this is VERY well played, well done, I've done this myself and don't
doubt it is a great technique.

2. I agree when she says "Just give me your number and I'll call" that
going along with this is NOT the thing to do! I totally agree; Sis is
right, 100%

So, again, my question is, when you push THAT hard for the number...and
they give it to often does this actually result in a further face
to face meeting? What is the line between being strong and pushing too far,
and scaring a girl away?

I've found that part of the answer has to do with how much time I've had to
talk to the person/build rapport, etc. before the pitch. I HAVE been able
to get numbers in about 90 seconds, but, invariably, these women were
always harder to get to meet again face to face or even talk to on the
phone. I found that if I didn't do something to reassure them and build
rapport on the phone when I did get them, the meeting I arranged would
invariably get cancelled. do you match "power" with also building some comfort and rapport?

Friday, having a crappy day, I was going into the gym and a VERY hot black
HB with killer abs came out as I was coming in. I stopped her and said,
"Great abs". She was wearing a belly-button decoration shaped like a
butterfly.  I poked her decoration and said, "Nice butterfly".

Swapped names.  Told her she looked tense after her workout...did a brief
test to see how she responded to touching by rubbing back of her neck..she
dug it. She had to go...

I said, "Look...I know we don't know each other...I don't know you and you
don't know me...but if you're not with someone who's with you in the way
you TRULY want them to be...maybe we owe it to each other to talk."

She said, "Hey, even if I am, we can still meet and talk." Then she asked
for my number.

I started to write it down and then stopped. I said, "You know I don't
normally give my number out to women in Los Angeles."

She laughed and said, "I don't normally give out MY number to guys in Los

I said, "It's nothing personal, it's just that so many women like to
collect guys' numbers and look at them as trophies to boost their
make themselves feel attractive...and I'm not about that. I only want to
talk to sincere people." (Thanks to Bro Rick H. who is a pal of Sis's for

She laughed and I said, "Why don't we exchange?

She seemed congruently ok with that, so she gave me her cell...a bit of a
protection/shield...not the home number...but actually, some women are
easier to reach on their cells.

My point: I don't think powering through and demanding her number would
have worked, or it might have gotten me a bogus number OR alot of

At this point, also, because we only talked for about 3-5 minutes, I
consider that I'll have to re-establish interest and rapport, and chat for
a few minutes on the phone before I structure an opportunity to meet.

Of course, this is just one example.

(Commenting on:  "Another is if I'm with a woman and she begins to get
upset or emotional about something. Back when I gave my power away most of
the time, I would let these kinds of things bother me, and I wouldn't know
how to act. Now, I just smile and say "How do you REALLY feel about it?" in
a sarcastic tone. Or I laugh and say "You're so cute when you're mad.""):

I think this is WAYY better than getting sucked into her upset and it's as
far as you need to go if you ONLY want to get laid. If you want to go
further than that, stay calm AND see if you can understand what is
troubling her...especially if it is something you are doing that genuinely
upsets her, versus it being just a ploy to manipulate. I don't believe ALL
women's emotions are generated to manipulate...women DO have real fears,
hopes, dreams, etc.  You don't need to concern yourself if you just want to
dip your willy, but I DO enjoy being friends with women I am with don't have to be an emotional vomit bag or tampon to show
you also have a human and understanding side...certainly staying calm as
Sis suggests is the start of that skill and it is wise advice.

(Commenting on: "You can also say "Excuse me" with a tone that says "I'm
scared to talk to you, and I need you to excuse the interruption because I
have low self esteem... and if you don't then I can't talk to you..." lol.
Are you with me here?
He's totally right.

Here's a really good frame to do approaches in

No matter what response someone offers you, you will notice and use it, and
stay calm and unaffected.

Today I was hanging out at the Venice Beach Street Festival. I saw
super-hot black woman and I said to her, very calmly, "Hi...if I weren't
totally gay...I'd go for you."

I then watched her was genuine amusement and laughter.

I then said, "Actually, I'm not but I figured you get hit on all the
time...and maybe it's time for something different."

I watched her response. It was half curiosity, half skepticism. Didn't
bother me a bit...I just mirrored her facial expression back to her then
shifted to full curiosity...she shifted a bit with me, but not all the way...

She said, "What's different?"

I played back and forth with her, totally calm...anything she offered, I
either mirrored and then shifted or commented on. At one point I backed up,
looked at her with my head cocked and said, " he making this up,
or is really being on the level?"

She laughed because I nailed her exact thought!

I call this "thought surfing"...any response she offers is a wave for me to
ride and enjoy.

I can ride it by mirroring it back, non-verbally, then shifting it
non-verbally. (I know ONE place to go to learn this and I owe it all to
them: http:///

Commenting on it by either saying out loud what SHE is thinking, as if I
were her "Is he putting me on?", or commenting on it from MY perspective
" you seem a bit skeptical"

Grab it and use it if it is positive and I can run with it.

My state is totally relaxed and utterly unconcerned with any final outcome.

At this point, her husband walked up, (She said,"Here's my husband"). I
greeted him...he was very cool...much older than she.

BTW, while I'm staying calm, I am also evaluating her for certain qualities
to see if she makes a good Sargy subject. Is she only temporarily a little
skeptical of a stranger talking to her, which is NORMAL? Or is her
skepticism a BONE-DEEP fear and distrust of men...even an anger and hatred?
If I sense THAT, then I back off and back away fast....

(Commenting on: "Yes, I'm saying that the guys who have mastered the body
language» aspect need very little more to be successful."):

I respectfully disagree. It's the guys who have mastered STATE control who
have an edge, because THEY can notice and use ANYTHING the woman offers.

(Commenting on: "Women are somewhere around TEN TIMES as sensitive to
subtle body language» clues as men are. Most guys have NO IDEA what they are
communicating to women with their appearance, dress, gestures, etc."):

I think women are 100 times more sensitive to non-verbal cues of all kinds,
including posture, TONALITY, attitude, etc.   It's most important to be
able to control your state AND calibrate where the other person is at.


In every situation there is a way to subtly or overtly communicate that you
are the one who is selecting her.  Just like my idea that you can increase
attraction in every situation, I also believe that you can communicate that
you're the one doing the selecting (which, of course, increases the

He's totally right. Set the frame that motivates them to respond and
anything you do within it will work much better. Right on.

(Commenting on: "Examples
1) When you first meet her say "You seem different from the other shallow
women that work here...""):

I've done this, "Excuse me...but I'm wondering  if you're confident enough
to accept an HONEST compliment"...

Now, look at the bind you put her in..what is she going to do? Say "no"?

(Commenting on: "2) Mention that your ex girlfriend called you (if it's
true, of course) and that she wanted to see you, but that you chose her
instead tonight.
3) If you find something that she likes, tell her "If you're a good girl,
I'll give you some more..."
Now, these are subtle ways of saying, in effect "I'm the one who's in
control. I'm desirable and I know it... but I'm going to pay attention to
you because I choose to."
Do you get this?
Most guys behave in a way that communicates "I'm a lucky guy to be getting
attention from you. I'll do whatever you want so you don't leave. I know
that I'm fortunate to be with you, and I'm insecure because you might leave
at any time."
This goes back to what I said earlier about giving away your power.
So think up some ways that you can communicate the idea that YOU'RE THE ONE
If you overdo this one, you can come off as insecure and arrogant... so
make sure to keep it on the subtle side. But used in small amounts, this is

Again, correct.

(Commenting on: "If you believe it, she'll believe it.
OK, I'm done....
A very good post.  I hope we can talk about being powerful without being
scary and seeming to be pushy.

(Commenting on:  "Stephane:  Last night was very interesting.  I went out
with some friends, including HBbarbie.  HBbarbie is basically the prom
queen I never got to fuck.  She hooked up with her supergoodlooking jerk BF
at 14 and has been putting up with his crap (cheating, drugs, verbal abuse)
ever since.  Now she's 25, and they have 2 kiddies together."):

Ha ha. Good life choice, Barbie.

(Commenting on: "So we show up to bar #1 to go meet the girls and have a
beer before going downtown.  I hug HBmel and deliberately give HBbarbie a
pathetic, wimpy hug.  She goes, "What was that?!"  So I now have permission
to give her a full-blown hug complete with feeling her up, and she goes
gaga for it.
I go to the men's room, and when I come out, I pretend to be a stranger to
HBbarbie and hit her with, "HI, I'm sorry to interrupt you here but you are
just so...absolutely sexy and I really wanted to meat you.  My name is
I was once riding around in my car with a HB friend of mine, and suddenly I
started to role play. "So, how long have you been an attorney?" just like
we were on a first date?

She looked at me oddly at first...I said, "Well, I hope I'm not
prying...but when I first go out with someone...I am interested in what
they do...and our mutual friend who set us up tonight told me you were a

Then I smiled..she got it and got into the role play with me!

(Commenting on: "The flirting's going extremely well.  I've got my arm
around her, etc., and she's really into me. I'm 25 but I look 18.  My
stupid AFC buddy notices my success and makes a joke, "Steph, don't you
think she's a little young for you???"  The HB 16 pulls back as everyone
starts ragging on me to "leave the baby sitter alone, Steph". JEEEEZ!  I
don't need this at all.  HB 16 goes, "how old ARE you?" Me, "25".
She's feeling very uncomfortable so I go, "Do you believe in re-incarnation?"
her "Yes"
me "So do I.  And in this life, my body is about 9 years older than yours.
But our souls are THOUSANDS of years old.  Who knows, your soul could be
MILLIONS of years older than mine!"
her (smiling and loosening up completely)
me "Got a light?""):

Dude, you are the king of men. My hat is off to you! BRILLIANT!

(Commenting on: "Anyway, I couldn't get HBbarbie back into state for the
life of me. If we hadn't stopped at her stupid house on the way home (!!!),
and gone to a loud, packed, disgusting bar, things would have turned out
differently.  Oh well.  Any suggestions?"):

Yes...once you get someone in a good state, anchor it, turn it up and have
them imagine just how far they could take their good feelings...somewhere
without all the distractions and noise...where you could really FOCUS...and
tune how good this is?

(Commenting on: "Hugh Hefner is our GOD. Period."):

I think Hefner probably is incapable of truly emotionally connecting with
any woman on a deep my book, that makes him someone to be pitied.
Plus, he does it all on money and offering fame..NOTHING about the person
or man he is. On some level, he's got to know that. He's a commodity  for
women to enjoy, as much as the women he bangs are a commodity whose
images   HE sells to other men.

Not anything morally right or wrong with it, but dehumanizing when taken as
a way of life, instead of a temporary foray into fun.

(Commenting on: "Once again, this attitude is gonna keep you from dating
quality (inside and outside) women.  Any self-respecting chick wouldn't put
up with this, and should never have to.  If she's feeling sick, why don't
you make her some tea and give her a back rub instead of 'banging some
other chick'?  She might do the same in return when YOU are feeling sick."):

Because genuinely caring for another person opens us up to getting hurt
when or IF it is not appreciated.   Scary stuff for scares me
sometimes too.

(Commenting on: "I'm here to challenge this idea.  Do we really want to
live in a world like this?  Do we really want to be around women who need
to be treated disrespectfully?  How does it feel to "treat em like
crap"?  Does it bring peace into our lives?  Those of you who are
self-proclaimed jerks, if all of a sudden, every man on Earth stopped being
a jerk and started treating women with respect and being pleasant and kind,
what would happen?"):

If you have to degrade others to win what you want, you chip away at your
own heart and soul as well.  Surely, there has to be a better way...if you
sense someone has this deep sickness at heart, move away from them, first
offering a bit of compassion and bit of a better feeling...

(Commenting on: "Stephane continues: You all talk about being ALPHA (Well,
mostly on ASF anyway).  You wanna be alpha?  OK, then don't let yourself be
sucked in by these pathetic women that make you feel that you have to act
like a fucking DICKHEAD to get laid!  You wanna be alpha?  Don't wanna make
excuses for your desires?  Good!  Then how about taking a good, hard look
at what it is that you desire in the first place!  How about wanting things
that are more worth wanting?  Because alot of us seem to want the very
thing that will make you miserable in the first place  Stupid flaky
chycks.  Notches on your belt.  Bragging rights, to be able to say, "I
fucked 1000 girls, I now have aids, my dick is falling off, and I'm an
old-wrinkled asshole piece of shit VIRUS.""):

You see, the line between GENUINE power and the IMITATION of power is
difficult one. To me, GENUINE power also means being able to walk with evaluate the person in front of you...and decide what you
will NOT do in order to "win" as much as what you can and WILL do.

If I have to play into someone's need to be degraded in order to have some
excitement and spue my goo on them, what have I won? Really...? I mean,
ok...I had some excitement while contributing to another human's need to be
degraded. What does that do to ME? My sense of being able to create win/win
outcomes in the world?

Guys who engage in this shoot more goo than me, but they also shoot holes
in their souls. What does Hugh Hefner think about in his quiet moments? Can
he even be alone and be at peace with himself?

(Commenting on: "Ross, I feel for you, buddy.  Speed-seduction is so
misunderstood, it's not even funny!  It must be very frustrating for you at
times. Then again, look at all the shit Bandler had to go through.  You are
both misunderstood geniuses.  You are like the Eminem's of the self-help
community  )  (I'm not saying that Eminem is a genius, BTW!)  Rock on!"):

Thanks. Somewhere between being an asshole and a wuss, there has to be a
better way. Somewhere between idealizing women and putting them up on a
pedestal AND treating them only as fuck-toys/jack-off tunnels, there has to
be a better way that makes us attractive AND extends humanity and dignity
to the other persons involved.  Lord knows, I get pissed off, frustrated
and even angry at some of the flaky bullshit I see women pull, but I try to
remember they came into this world the same way as me and will go out the
same way as well.  Someone who is frustrating you isn't your enemy and
ought not to be treated as such...they are just someone who is frustrating
you. As someone who has both HAD and BEEN a real enemy, I can tell you
there is a real difference.

(Commenting on: "As I went to shake her hand good bye she took my hand, and
asked me if I could fire off that anchor once again, and I said,"How do you
not already know that I am firing off that anchor RIGHT NOW (as I looked at
her shoulder and imagined squeezing it and going into the feeling myself)."):

BINGO! It is your intent AND your state that fire the anchor, NOT the touch!
htttp://, and if I seem like an ad for these guys,

(Commenting on: "I stumbled upon flexibility. If I hadn't have stumbled
upon it, I would have remained so focused on my previous outcome, that I
would have missed out on the opportunity to recognize that there is no one
right way to do something. In retrospect, I was the performer that Mystery
promotes, I was holding back like Sis always talks about, and I was
creating states by describing them in detail like Ross suggests."):

Dude, I have talked for the past two years about noticing what they are
giving you and using it. It's my "get handles" on the smooth metal ball
theory. I'll explain here if enough people ask for it.

(Commenting on: "Sis, Mys, Ross, and I are all sitting at a booth in a
restaurant, and a beautiful woman walks by. Instantly, Mys whispers, watch
how envious I'm going to make her by performing this. Then Sis leans in and
says, watch how envious she will be when I approach her with the confidence
and ease with which I carry myself. Ross leans in and says, go ahead, both
of you, and I will model these behaviors you present, and incorporate them
into my behavior so I can create that state in her."):

No, I'll sit back, alter my state, and watch what she responds to..then use
THAT as my starting point! Let ya be my ice-breaker!

(Commenting on: "I think this goes with the philosophy that women look at a
guy who has a
woman as safe, since if he is good enough for the other woman, he's
definitely good enough for her."):

With respect, Hugh is living in a world where ALL people are, are
commodities. The commodity HE offers to women is the shot at fame...getting
their career aspirations met.  Getting in Playboy can be a fast ticket to
TV shows/movies, acting career and some serious cash. THEY offer the
commodity of their beauty. EVERYTHING they do emphasizes THAT and ONLY that.

Today, at Venice Beach, to close a loop, I spotted a very hot young thing
in a bikini. I walked up to her at the corner as we waited for the light
and said, "If I weren't old and gay..I'd go for're very cute".

She laughed, gave me her name, but looked away and wouldn't talk to me any
further.  Just from the way she presented herself...her nails, hair, screamed out "commodity". I said to her as she kept walking,
"Nice meeting you,  Tara....keep being a commodity".

She laughed out loud...I swear it was the laugh of recognition.

This kind of thing is WAY exaggerated here in see women in their
thirties with HUGE, totally fake boobs...outrageous collagen lip
implants...doing everything they can to show their bodies...and they hate it.


Dwayne (htttp://
The "KISS" Principle?

I was out having lunch with some colleagues when I saw a very beautiful
young girlie... so I just stepped over to her and said, "Hi... I know you're
having lunch and don't want to interrupt... but I just had to come over and
tell you how breathtaking you are."

Well, she gasped and said, "Aww... that's so sweet."

But she happened to say that with a mouth full of half-chewed food, chunks
spilling out as she spoke.  This was such a turn off I gave a quick close
and went back to my table.  A few minutes later, she and her girlfriend
finished and they disappeared in the ladies room, then she came out (both
giggling) and said, "Bye, see you later!"

I figured I should try again... but this time not wanting to gross myself

I was out with my "gal pal" and our waitress was this cute Jennifer Aniston
look alike (only with a nice big bubble-butt which I just love).  After
dinner, I asked Lanie to wait outside and I put my arm around the waitress
and said, "Dinner was great... and you are just BEAUTIFUL."

She was wowed and (having no food in her mouth) I managed a graceful close.

In both cases... no patterns, no trance phrases... just a simple compliment
given confidently.


(Commenting on Sisonpyh's post: "The real trick when teasing a woman and
busting her balls is to do it in a completely calm, confident, indifferent
way. Women are great at detecting
FRAUDS. And it really doesn't matter what kind of fraud you're trying to
run... women just get uptight if you're not being who you are."):

This is THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of PUing if you ask me. When I started in
this venue, the single biggest mistake I made was to try and MEMORIZE
everything as a pre-canned method. My initial assumption was that if I was
able to memorize this stuff and go out there and try it, I would could not
go wrong. Sure, I would bomb a few times, but overall I should be
successful, right? I mean, if I use the FMAC model it SHOULD work at one
point or another. If I follow Maniac's guide to laying chicks, it SHOULD
work, right? DEAD WRONG. You can't use that approach. You end up being all
worried about not being able to say/do/act like a real PUA and you start
forgetting routines, you stumble, crash and burn. Not that there's anything
wrong with that; it's part of the learning curve.

Mystery said it best when he stated that you have to go out there, try some
stuff and figure out what works best for you.

Like Sis said above, women can detect frauds very easily. How do you detect
a fraud? A good exaggerated example is included below
"Well, I work 60 hours a week, but when I am not working I'm out hunting
squirrels. And I have 12 kids that I baby-sit, furthermore I do volunteer
work at the spineless-dickless-legless Bolshevik orphans center. I also
spend some time disarming nuclear missiles as a Greenpeace secret agent and
saving the world from evil demons while stirring pasta sauce on the stove,
because, YES, I DO love to cook too. See what an awesome guy I am? Give me
your number? What???? You want mine? HELL NO. I don't give my number out to
chycks. I have plenty of women that want to fuck me, why should I need you?
NEXT ... Well, I work 60 hours a week... bla bla bla"

What in HELL is this supposed to be you might ask? This is your typical rAFC
trying to apply all of the documented information in one PU; trying to be
someone he is NOT. The point is that you can do all of the reading in the
world, and you can idolize the PUA's who made this into a science, but you
cannot MIMIC someone's character.

You MUST find a level of comfort with YOURSELF, and stick with that. Once
you realize that you are NOT a moron, or a loser, you START incorporating PU
tactics into your style, and MAKE IT BECOME YOU. You must BELIEVE in what
you are saying, because if you can't get it past yourself, you can't get it
past other people.

I am sure that Ross's students don't just memorize lines and go pattern the
shit out of women. That would NOT work.

The point here is that people who do well with women have a shitload of
self-confidence, or find ways to build self-confidence if they don't have
any. Mystery's newbie mission is perfect for this. Coupled with
self-confidence, having a conceptual character towards learning definitely
helps. If you get the CONCEPT, you can go and apply the theory in your own

Think of this as a math problem. If you are sitting in class and you just
copy the problem down on paper, and revisit that particular example, the
test will come and when faced with a similar problem, you will bomb. OTOH,
if you UNDERSTAND the conceptual theory behind it, you will address the
problem logically and solve it within a different situation.

Be yourself. When you are sitting at home in front of the TV, just chilling
out, are you totally comfortable with yourself? YES. The same applies to PU.
You must be totally comfortable with yourself before you can make others
comfortable around you.

If you don't have what it takes, be ADAPTIVE. Don't go for a pre-canned
approach. Understand the concept behind it instead. Adapt PUing to your
style, and you are off to a better start than anyone else out there.

When I approach, I am myself. I am totally happy with the way that I am and
lead my life, and what I look like; to come back to what Sys was saying, I
do treat ALL women as old friend/brat sister/buddy. I am a pretty
adventurous person and I skydive, rockclimb and do water-skiing, so I have
loads of accumulated true stories. Over the past few years I have been doing
a lot of traveling for work, so I have been to many places and have tons of
fun times that I remember & can talk about.

I use this to my advantage, and my convos (when meeting women) are always
tangent-based. For those of you who might have trouble keeping up a convo,
and keeping it in talkative mode (as Mys would say), I posted a little
example of this in the lounge in one my replies here it is

I was @ this club and bla bla bla

So about this club, right, it's in the most upscale part of town, bla bla

And this upscale part of town has these condos with a lot of rich people,
bla bla bla

bla bla bla

You all following me on this?

This also works for questions to her (this is on;» just
pickup on her last response. Nice thing about tangent convos is that you
cover a lot of ground in little time. You keep talking (giving her chances
to stick her opinions in), and you are bound to hit on a topic you can both
relate to. I used some of this last Friday night, and I went from her
vacation in Italy to shopping in Italy to the shoes she bought in Italy to
pumps with 8 inch heels and how she uses them in bed because it makes her
feel like a slut. The girl was completely SURPRISED the I was able to pull
that much info out of her in such a short time.

You just have a conversation with a friend, and this goes a long way in
disarming their "flirt-radar". If you are talking to them about anything and
everything, and establish a high-level rapport, and that opens the door for
stronger advances later.

Now I am SURE that this would not work if you are not comfortable with
yourself. If you are trying to be someone you are not, basically you are
fucked. I tried teaching this to a friend, and he bombed because he was
trying to put himself on a pedestal. I heard him and it was somewhat like

HIM ... I love snowboarding!
HER Yeah I love adventure too! What else do you do?
HIM I kayak and bungee jump when I can (sounding unsure)
HER You don't look too sure ...
HIM I am serious! I really do!

That was the end of it. She saw right through it. I approached the SAME
chick later that night and we were talking about skydiving, and adventure
sports, and I was totally confident about what I was saying. # closed and I
was on my way out the door.

MTL_PUA (commenting on Stephane's comment: "You all talk about being ALPHA
(Well, mostly on ASF anyway).  You wanna be alpha?  OK, then don't let
yourself be sucked in by these pathetic women that make you feel that you
have to act like a fucking DICKHEAD to get
laid!  You wanna be alpha?  Don't wanna make excuses for your
desires?  Good!  Then how about taking a good, hard look at what it is that
you desire in the first place!  How about wanting things that are more
worth wanting?  Because alot of us seem to want the very thing that will
make you miserable in the first place  Stupid flaky chycks.  Notches on
your belt.  Bragging rights, to be able to say, "I fucked 1000 girls, I now
have aids, my dick is falling off, and I'm an old-wrinkled asshole piece of
shit VIRUS."):

Exactly the way I think. Everyone here seems to have a varied definition of
being ALPHA. You hear a lot of these comments being passed around on ASF
(especially). Be Alpha, man. Act like an Alpha. Walk like an Alpha. Eat like
an Alpha. Fuck like an Alpha. WTF is happening here?

Figure out what you want in your life, then go after it. You can't be master
of your domain if your domain isn't defined.

Another general comment:
Now don't get me wrong. I do strongly believe in learning from everyone's PU
experiences, and sharing mine with you all. I don't think that any of us
would be here was it not for Mys, Maniac & countless others whose names
escape me
at this time (no pun intended), and have helped open eyes.

Personally I have gotten a lot out of this community and it did OPEN my
eyes. It still keeps doing so throughout the countless posts and
discussions. However, just because some helped me to "see the light", it
does not mean that we both have to stare in the same direction. Find your
own and you will do just fine : )


1.    I have read of the importance of appearing "Alpha" when attempting to
do a PU.  By this I mean that lets say you go to a party and talk to and
appear to know the host and other males at the event, then talk to other
women, and then demonstrate to people that you can influence people at the
party (by appearing to be a leader to get someone to something for you,
like getting a beer).  There seems to be this notion of PU as chess game
talk to people, ignore others and then finally close in on a target.  My
question is, how much of a requirement is this?  A person could go thru the
intricacies of SS and then have to worry about how you appear to others,
specifically the women at an event. I recently talked to a very attractive
married women and asked her why she liked her husband.  She said  was it
not only his humor, but the fact that while they were "friends" before they
dated, he appeared to know many people at the clubs/bars they
frequented.  Later she mentioned how proud she was of her daughter leading
a group of her classmates around the playground at school.  Personally, I
can't stand leader types.  I know a lot of people get involved in
activities just so they can appear to be a leader solely to impress women,
but it does not always work.   Comments?

2. To all SS folk, this is a quote from a new Toyota Camry ad:
"The Camry thrills right to the core of your inner child."

Is there a "Camry" pattern in the works by the folks on Madison avenue?  SS
and advertising have a common thread...


1) What are some things that people send over the internet (i.e. fun links,
short notes, etc.) when they want to start more interaction with an HB?
Sometimes, I think something like The Warm Fuzzy is too much.  What is really
needed are just some fun links or e-mails, and then later you can send a Warm
Fuzzy, etc.

I'm curious about how people handle attractions in awkward situations.  In
one of Cliff's earlier newsletters, he posted a phenomenal example where he
wanted to Sarge a hostess or waitress but he thought it might be awkward for
her, and he didn't want to disturb her at work.  He labeled the possible
awkwardness and asked if it was OK.  I wish I could remember his exact

Cliff's Comment:  Me too!

Halbster Continues:
There are certain rules that I've been very steadfast about
1) I will not mix seduction with work, even when the connections are
extremely remote.
2) I always look at the ecology of the other people involved

This brings me to my current dilemma. Recently, I broke up with a long-time
GF (EK) who I will probably want to go back to if and when I am ready to
settle down and make a life commitment.  Since then I've been out with my
good friend's sister (JB).  She is very, very hot by my
standards, and I'm very attracted to her.  About 4 years ago my friend talked
about fixing us up together.  JB and I actually talked briefly on the phone
and via e-mail.  However, due to our busy schedules and other complexities we
never met.  I finally met her 2 years ago.  However, at that time she had a
serious BF that she was about to move in with, and my friend said they'd
probably get married.  During this time I started to represent her on a legal
matter while at my old firm.  We went out as friends a few times when she was
in town and we had things to do for her case.  (She is a flight attendant and
lives in another state.)  Recently, JB called me concerning her case (which is
about to end).  As usual, we made plans to meet at my old firm and then go
out afterward.  Then, she informed me that she broke up with her BF.
Later in the week we made plans to get together, but it was ambiguous and I
thought we were going out as friends.  I normally treat her because she is a
client, my friend's sister, and she has been going through a tough financial
time.  While out, I seem to get some positive signals from her (while we were
out, she referred to this as a date, asked me to massage her neck, laid her
on my shoulders as she napped while we drove home (we got lost & it was 4
am), date ended with a brief goodbye kiss on the lips.  Today, I had a v-mail
message that she called to say hello while she was at a semi-local airport.
We also talked about going to Vegas and some other places together.
Buddy passes are totally awesome : D
For me, this is not like a typical seduction because things are so ambiguous.
Furthermore, she is the sister of a good friend.  I don't want to do
anything that might affect my friendship or leave her in any way less than
utterly thrilled by any experiences that we share.  I also like her very
much, but don't think she is a potential soul mate or life partner.  We are
so very different in many ways, and sometimes I find it really challenging to
make conversation with her.  Although I am extremely attracted to her, I am
very cautious about getting more physical or even using sexual accelerators.
Fortunately, I don't think she is looking for a LTR.  I think she is more
interested in a fun friend who she can trust while we enjoy sharing passion
together.  Thus, I have a few dilemmas here:
1) How do I go about setting up a shared understanding of our relationship
2) How do I advance things to a more physically intimate level?
3) How do I break off this relationship down the road (Major Mark's Locket,
4) How do I do all of this while maintaining my friendship with her brother
and other family members?
5) How do I set things up so that after the breakup she is grateful for what
we shared (i.e. using Riker's 3 rules, etc.)?


Commenting on: "If it don't taste good it's probably down to chemical
incompatibility! We
might have lots in common, and/or we might really love that person because of
who they are, [emotional and social compatibility] but sometimes the chemical
compatibility isn't there.
It's the chemical compatibility that sparks off 'instant attraction'. When
you go weak at the knees and feel that surge of desire going through your
body it is because your body chemicals are automatically responding to unique
chemicals from the other person. It is chemically attracted.
If you are chemically compatible, you will probably mostly enjoy the taste of
your lover, if you aren't you might find them 'distasteful' most of the time.
If you are chemically incompatible but enjoy being with and making love to
the person, it's not the end of the world. You can find other ways to enjoy
sex that don't involve tasting bodily fluids. But remember, If your feeling
bad towards your partner, then change your attitude, you might find your
chemical composition mutating towards that of your lover! Who knows..."):

JOSEPH   Are you sure about this? It seems to me like it might be more
dependant upon the health of the person, whether he eats fresh foods and
keeps in shape, smokes or not, etc.
And I'm sure that there are some women who just don't like the taste of
cum, anyhow or whichaway.  My point is that I think it would be unwise to
start advocating cum tasting as a test for determining soul mates among lovers.


(Commenting on Stephane's comments):
I have been receiving Cliffy's emails for ages now. May I say that what you
wrote in your response to Rio is exemplary!  As we say down here in
Australia, 'Good on ya, mate!'  He desperately needed to be put in his
place.  He really does have to remember that what you put out is what you
get back, right?

I know there are a lot of decent guys on Cliffy's list who offer great
comments about 'relating'...but I have got to say that yours really
impressed me.  Your self respect is evident in what you say, as is your
genuine love of women....most of us are adorable, loving creatures...and we
respond best to adorable, loving and very real men like you...after all,
LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE!!!!  The truth about who you are and what belief you
hold is always reflected back to you by who, and what experiences, you
attract to yourself in the everyday reality of your life.  Change your core
beliefs, with self awareness and determination, and you change your reality.

Keep doing what you're doing Stephane....celebrate your body with lots of
(safe) sex!!!!!  After all, the human body is just a pleasure vehicle for
our spirit to journey through life in!!!!!!!

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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