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You’re learning a lot from me!
9/4/01 5:21:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time


The DAVID method
This is what I got from David, and I apologize in advance to David and
everyone if I distort anything that he taught us.  Dave, if you’re reading
this, feel free to defend your theories if I don't do them enough justice!

Yesterday afternoon, a few of us went over to David’s house for a
‘seminar’.  David is married with kids, in his early fifties, overweight,
and really nothing to look at.  But he has a very complete a-z system for
meeting, attracting, bedding, and keeping women.  And this includes
multiple women management as well.

We all sat down in his basement. He started talking, and we started
listening.  It soon became very apparent that this guy is the REAL
DEAL.  And although I've never seen him in action, I'm a believer.  This
guy reminds of Richard Bandler so much, because they can both easily
command the full attention of an audience.  David’s self-assurance exudes
from every pore.  When it comes to women, this guy is one enlightened

A lot of what he talks about is very basic stuff, but the way he frames it
great.  For example, he did manage to make me look very silly.  He just
looked at me very casually and said, “Steph, can you just get up for a
sec?”  I thought nothing of it, and stood up.  So he goes, “You see guys,
this is what I'm talking about.  You guys are all such fuckin' PUSSIES!  If
you comply with women’s wishes so easily, you’re going to get crushed.”

He talks a lot about being in control, and stresses the importance of
always having the upper hand, always being in the lead. Always!  And right
down to the little, ‘unimportant’ things like where you go eat.  If she
says McD’s, go to Harveys.  If she wants to go to a nice, upscale place,
then put on your jeans and take her to a lower-scale restaurant.  Your
attitude should say, “I'm going wherever I want to go, and if you want to
join me, you’re welcome to.  I'm not about to change MY lifestyle for YOU.”

I really think that alot of his ability to get laid is due to the plain
fact that he does not supplicate in any way, shape, or form.  He is the
same person whether he is with the guys OR with the girls.  He is just
David.  For example, he'll ask himself, “What is her best feature, what is
she displaying the most for everybody to see?”  If she has big tits and a
low-cut shirt that shows lots of cleavage, he will look directly at her
tits, without apology.  And if she gives him a dirty look, he STARES
HARDER.  He says that a lot of women are cool with it.  And when they try
to call him on it, he hits them with, “Excuse me, but I was just enjoying
sleeping with you.  This is the second time we've done it, and you’re
learning a lot from me!”

The most important idea that I got from him was simple, yet very powerful.
“Do not concern yourself with what she is thinking,  because you never know
what she could be thinking in that pretty little head of hers.  Don't
bother.  Be concerned only with what it is that YOU want.  And if she can't
handle it, then who needs her!”  And most men, including myself, have
always been concerned with this.  “What will she THINK if I do this, what
will she say if I do that.”  I now view this as my biggest handicap, and
realize how deeply embedded this is.  And as I pull up my ‘timeline’ and
see all the times I successfully got a girl in bed, those were the times
that I didn't hesitate, and just went for it.  I've gotten away with a
couple of things in my life that, to this day, as I look back on them, I
can't believe I pulled them off!  Sometimes it’s nice to discover that you
still have the ability to surprise yourself.

I'm no big shot SSer by any means, but I have had moments where I've shined.
Almost ALL of my successes have come down to this attitude of  “I don't
care what YOU thought you wanted, Princess, because THIS is what I
want!  And if you can't handle it, then goodbye.”

And this brings me to how David handles “LJBF”.  He just says, “Fine.  You
wanna be just friends?  OK!  Then be a good friend and get me some pussy!
Introduce me to some good women.  After all, that’s what friends do, isn't it?”

One of us yesterday (I won't say who, I'll let him ID himself here if he
wants to) met up with a girl for a second date.  The date was getting
nowhere fast so he tried it and it worked like magic.  He just looked at
her and calmly said, “Look.  This is now our second date, and there’s
obviously not much ‘spark’ between us.  So do you think you can be a good
friend…and introduce me to some women I can actually sleep with?”


She said, “I don't want you sleeping with my friends!  I want you all to
myself!”  So he took her to her car and fooled around with her.  He went
from “Nothing’s really happening” to almost fucking the poor girl in 20

(Dude, I know I can't tell your story perfectly for you, so please post!)

This is one of the most important discoveries I've ever made as a
pussy-hunter.  FORGET what she is thinking.  This one is right up there
with the AFC model, the supplicator.  Remember when you first learned that
one?  If you were like me, you went, “WOW!  I never thought of it like that
before!  YES!”  Learning the word SUPPLICATION did us all A LOT OF GOOD,
because that’s when we started to really NOTICE just how much we've been
trained to supplicate.  Some of us let it depress us!  The rest of us did
something about it, and IT ALONE has gotten us laid.  I'm asking all of you
(and myself) to give this idea just as much thought as you did with

Stop, and think about this.  How many of you are still concerned with what
a lady thinks?  How much of our energy goes into analyzing our approaches,
trying to figure out how she’s going to react to our overtures IN
ADVANCE?  When I first learned the not-so-subtle Blow job Pattern, for
example, my very first thought was, “How are women going to react to
this?!”  Aren't they going to think I'm (insert insecurity
here)?  Fortunately, I had another voice in my head that went, “She’s gonna
LOVE IT!!”  I got lucky, but I still try to predict responses, and try to
read women’s minds on a regular basis.  David couldn't stress enough that
doing this leads to masturbation.
We almost all spend WAY too much time mind-reading, instead of spending
that time doing whatever the fuck we CHOOSE to do, in whatever way we
fucking choose to do it.

I forget where I got this great analogy, but it demonstrates a lot of what
David’s attitude is about (in my opinion)  DO NOT pet the cat because the
cat enjoys it.  Pet the cat because IT FEELS GOOD TO YOUR HAND.

David is a man.  As a man, he wants to have sex, and is PROUD of it.  He
doesn't apologize for who he is and what he wants.  If a little woman
happens to think he is anything other than attractive,  then she is
gone.  He is HONEST, and genuinely doesn't care if she can't appreciate his
honesty.  After all, A LOT of women already do!  And this attitude is very
apparent in the way he moves, the way he talks.  He has mastered the art of
confidence, and that is a rare thing.

Another thing that he teaches, is what to do after a one-night stand.  A
lot of guys worry about calling her too soon, or too late.  But David is
also a gentleman.  He will call her the next morning, or just show up at
her door and give her a rose.  Then he tells her how much he enjoyed being
with her, and how he is looking forward to spending some more time with
her.  He does this to make sure she doesn't get too insecure, so it wasn't
just sex, it was romance as well.  And right after he does this, he is on
his way.  And he didn't say this, but I know enough to say that if she said
‘thank you and come on in’, he would tell her that he is busy.  Be in
control, always.  Women need to be led.  Give them the steering wheel and
you will crash.  And I for one can say that every single time that I gave
up my power in the past with my girls, I lost 'em.

I don't remember much about his case-specific ‘tricks’ for handling women,
all I really remember was his overall attitude.  And I hope that this
report conveyed it well. If you ever get the chance to meet David, you should.

(Separate post):
WHY LOVE SUCKS (by Stephane):
I have to address this issue, because I notice that when people say they
are in love, it's usually used in conjunction with being STUPID.  It's just
a way of justifying acting like a fuckin' idiot.

Believing you are IN LOVE usually means that you have lost your brain, and
there's nothing you can do about it, cause you're IN LOVE!  Therefore it is
a very dangerous, limiting belief.

Do you tell your significant other 'I love you'?

STOP IT!  Save it for when you are MARRIED.  Because I LOVE YOU really
means DO YOU LOVE ME.  Wanna be a dumbass?  OK, fall in love!  Go ahead.  I
can almost
guarantee you will experience more pain, sadness, frustration, dependency,
and just plain PATHETICness.

As you can see, I hate the word LOVE!

Whenever you say I LOVE YOU, you are probably triggering all of his/her
PAST, negative associations of all the times when this person ended up
hurt, depressed, confused, etc., as well as your own.

Try using words like connection, lust, and passion instead.  Or better,
make up a new word that you can share with this person that serves to
anchor all the good feelings you want to experience with each
other.  Remember the 'Our Song' thing?  OUR WORD!

Think back to all the times in the past when
a)she loved you, but you didn't love her
b)you loved her, but she didn't love you

In which of these two circumstances did you have all the power?  Stay away
from the word love, gentlemen.  You've been warned.


Mark B.:
This is a link to Power Persuasion How to Use Presupposition Language
Patterns to Get What You Want, which I found extremely informative and

For extensive work on Frank Farrelly and provocative therapy see

(Commenting on "Stephane:  A question for Ross (and the group)  Ross, I
often hear you talking about black HB's.  I want to taste one, and never
have. Are there any special opportunities/challenges when dealing with
black women in your opinion?  Cliff knows my fetish/curiosity for blacks)"

I've always done ok with black women, they were one of my few refuges from
abstinence BEFORE I knew SS.

They like me because I'm totally different from the macho black dudes MOST
of them are used to.

Comments on the above.

Here is my big revelation to the entire group. In the past 6 years I have
dated women of color exclusively, mostly black with one or two Indian or
dark skinned Spanish women thrown into the mix. As a teenager I did not find
myself attracted to white women at all and I began to think that there was
something seriously wrong with me. I remember walking around campus at
University waiting to turn a corner just to see if the next white girl that
I saw I would be attracted to but that never happened. I even had a few
white girls invite me to their homes and apartments but nothing they could
do could turn me on. I even began entertaining the idea that I could be gay
and started to look at guys to see if I could find myself attracted to a guy
but I quickly realized that proposition revolted me beyond description. So I
was stuck in a wasteland of confusion about my own sexuality.

Then Michelle, a stunning black beauty with long wavy hair and an ass to
kill for, came along. She was in one of my accounting classes and befriended
me. We were studying in the library for an exam one day and suddenly while
looking at her I got the most massive hard on you could imagine and I felt
like fucking her brains out right on the spot. Up to this point I never
entertained the idea of an interracial relationship since it was not
something that a white blond haired, blue eyed guy does. But the feeling of
attraction was so strong that I had to explore that part of my life further.
Suddenly I began noticing black women everywhere and finding myself drawn to
them like a 100,000 watt magnet. This was back in 1995 and since then I have
only pursued black women with a few Indian and Spanish women on the side.

Regarding black women I find them to be much easier to talk to and more open
toward life in general. They seem more confident and more open to new
experiences and situations. They seem more confident with their bodies and
generally have a highly sexual nature. I find them easier to relate to than
white women and more talkative in general. Many of them will entertain the
idea of an interracial relationship even if they never had one before. I
also found that the better looking black women will tend to go for white men
in general as many stunning black women I've dated were either married to
white men or were in previous long term relationships with them.

In terms of the sexual preference of a black woman, many of them that prefer
white men prefer those that represent the opposite of who they are. White
skin, blond or light hair, blue eyes. My biggest successes have come with
those black women that have some aspect of their personality that had a
white influence such as growing up in a white neighbourhood or having lots
of white friends. I also noticed that black women with bold streaks or light
colored hair seem the most receptive to advances by a white man since they
appear to strongly identify with white culture.

Another reason that black women seem more receptive is that they are the
lost group of women that many men do not consider as potential mates. 99% of
white men date white women and many black men prefer white women. In
addition many black women have been abused and taken advantage of by black
men and consequently they look for something that will offer them a better
alternative to what they had. When a white man comes along, he is seen as the
saving grace. And if you have an attraction for their women it's like
shooting fish in a barrel.

I also have questions on negs. Exactly what are the mechanics of using them
and why do they work?

Why do women feel compelled to prove men wrong when they're being
questioned?  Do negs have any basis in NLP and if so what is that basis?


(Commenting on: "They seem all frustrated because they thought that all
they had to do was use a certain set of words, or use a particular
tonality, etc. and the chick was supposed to fall over backwards with her
legs in the air.
If only it was that simple... we'd all be getting laid like Gene Simmons."):
I totally agree. What happens with lots of guys who make a living doing
linear type that they
expect people to respond like PROGRAMS.

When people do NOT respond in pre-set ways, these guys go back to the
default of being confused or the old "nice guy stuff".

I think a HUGE skill in being good with people is to notice what gets a
strong response and USE it. Your initial approaches, whatever they may
be,  serve to "prime the pump". THEN you deal with whatever comes out.

(Commenting on: "What I've been noticing lately is a key distinction.  Some
men have body language» that INSTANTLY makes women feel uncomfortable. And
some guys have body language» that causes women to feel like "Hey, this is a
cool guy that I want to talk to.""):

I think some guys DO make women more comfortable than others but I strongly
disagree that it is about body language» per se. I think it is more about a
"vibe". Women are VERY hip to vibes. Guys who are relaxed, comfortable and
matter of fact about being attracted to a woman...guys who can turn down
and control their lust...THAT vibe is a lot more attractive.

I don't doubt for a minute that their "body language»" is different, but I
think the body language» is a reflection of the vibe and not the other way

So I think one ought to work on designing and controlling one's internal

"Body language»" is not really too precise; as an example, some folks listen
best when they are looking away or with eyes closed. I routinely fold my
arms to listen and lean back to listen when I am REALLY fascinated.  This
might be viewed as "resistant" to some, but really it is me "clearing a
space" for the new ideas and folding the arms is my way of putting them
away and keeping them still so I don't interrupt the other person!

(Commenting on: "The funny part is that in my experience it's not only
about good looks. I know a lot of guys that aren't what you'd think of as
"Model Handsome" but they are charming as hell when it comes to meeting
women. I know several guys that blow me away when it comes to making women
feel comfortable and laugh when first meeting them. And most of these guys
are really "regular" looking."):

You know, I had a neighbor who was an albino BLACK man! (Try that one on
for size!)  He was Ugly as sin, in my book, but he was so relaxed and
comfortable around women, they warmed up to him very quickly. I can't say,
however, that he was actually banging any of them!

(Commenting on: "Now, one of my assumptions is that a good portion of the
women you run into in the world will either have a husband or a boyfriend,
be in a bad mood and not interested, be lesbians ("Hey Beavith, lethbians
are kool") or for whatever reason just not receptive to meeting a guy in
the moment.
So first you have to realize that some women are going to be colder than a
McFlurry no matter what you do... but..."):
I agree that a good portion will not CONSCIOUSLY be receptive to anything,
right out of the chute.  What they consciously perceive they want in THEIR
reality may have no intersecting at all with what YOU want for/with/from them.

Sis is right on.....

(Commenting on: "So here's a test to use
If more than 50% of the women that you start conversations with give you
cold, uncomfortable vibes, then you probably need to change yourself and

your body language» before you can expect anything else to work for you."):

One thing to do is to see if you can calmly accept the cold vibe and turn
it around.

Here are some master keys to doing this:
1. Notice the responses you are getting, but hold them outside of yourself
as NOT being about you. I get in a state of un-insultability where no
matter WHAT someone offers I am going to playfully play with it and use it.

2. Comment on the response you are noticing.  Example, " you're
wondering...what does this guy want?"

Or, put it like this, "Hmmm....what does this guy want?"

For some reason I can't yet fathom it helps to cock your head as you say
this...I think because a cocked head is a position for curiosity, so by
channeling it through that position, you convert it from suspicion to
curiosity as you feed it back.

BY commenting on the response accurately, without blame, you defuse it and
make her much more comfortable.

3. Use BODY POSITIONING (not body language»).  Physically back up or lean back.

Example I met a very cute HB in a market.  As I talked to her, I saw her
getting more comfortable. Then, I brought something up and she got a
distressed look on her face. So I PHYSICALLY backed up two big steps away
from her. She IMMEDIATELY relaxed and I got the rapport back.

Example I will also frequently, when seated and talking with a woman, lean
back and take some of my energy and presence back away from her.

(Commenting on: "If you don't have a demeanor and style that makes
receptive women naturally feel cool and calm around you, then you're going
to have a damn hard time with a kiss close."):


By the way, I want to mention another situation that I hear often... a guy
will email and say "Well, I do really well using palmistry and handwriting
analysis, but women just seem to want to be friends after this. What do I
do to take it to the next level?"

Start finding out more about her. Offer to demonstrate to her something
REALLY cool about how energy flows in her body (opens her to touching/kino)
how she imagines things (guided visualization)...or show deep curiosity
about her passions, how she thinks, etc.

(Commenting on: "I can appreciate this situation, big time.
I used to use handwriting and palmistry all the time, but I found that this
was setting up a relationship that usually caused the woman to see me as a
friend/therapist/life consultant/girly-man and not a potential sex partner.
Amen anyone?"):
Yes, if that is ALL you do you will just be viewed as her temporary party
entertainment! You've got to trance-ition to more than that!

(Commenting on: "See, if you have the kinds of behaviors that lead to women
feeling a little uncomfortable when they first meet you, but then you start
talking palmistry and handwriting analysis, I think that women kind of say
"Well, OK... this guy is a little freaky, but he's a psychic reader, and
all of them are freaky. I'll listen to what he has to say... this will make
a great story for my girlfriends..." etc.
I don't think that internally they're saying "Oohhh, at first I felt a
little uncomfortable, but now that I realize this guy is a fortune teller
I'm getting turned on... maybe he'd be good in bed!""):
Right.  These things are just icebreakers that give you a chance to build
rapport, calibrate to her responses and set a few anchors....they aren't
the seduction any more than cracking the eggs and mixing the batter means
you've baked the cake!

(Commenting on: "By the way, I'm not saying that handwriting analysis and
palmistry are useless, I'm just saying that if you don't have body language»
that is working for you, then your palmistry and handwriting aren't going
to make up for it. Make sense?"):

I think if you don't know how to follow it up, palmistry and the rest won't
get you too far!

(Commenting on: "So the big question is "What the hell kind of body
language» are you talking about? How do I do it?"
Here are my ideas
1) Slow down. Try slowing every single movement down to half speed. Breath
slower, move slower, walk slower, blink slower, use slower gestures. Slow
is suspenseful. It creates a kind of positive tension."):

Most guys do need to slow down!

(Commenting on: "2) Learn how to appear confident in any situation. One of
the most important things I've ever learned is that if you persist and seem
like none of her games, resistance, etc. is affecting you, she'll often
give in and start acting different. Too many guys I know throw in the towel
and act beaten before the game even begins. Or even worse, they get upset
and act like children because they don't get their way. My frame is kind of
like "Look, you know that I'm funny and interesting, so quit the games. But
if you must play hard to get for a few minutes, so be it. I'll let you be
difficult because I know that you really want me.""):

I think this is very good advice; Rick H, who is Sis's friend and a student
of mine, once said, "Nothing a woman can say or do ever affects me, outside
of bed."  It's a disassociation...a staying cool and calm.

(Commenting on: "3) Don't give away your power. Make sure you act as if YOU
are the one with all the power in the situation, and nothing she does will
affect you in any negative way."):

Yes. And also, as it gets more serious, set forth your terms and rules.

(Commenting on: "4) Learn how to be funny in different situations. I've
mentioned that I think it's important to study comedy... if you study and
practice, you can become funnier. But it's not going to happen on its own.
You have to actually work on it and do something. Practice using
juxtaposition, exaggeration, getting into character, etc. It will pay off
huge in the long run."):

Good advice again.

(Commenting on: "7) Improve your posture. Sit and stand up straight...
don't slump! There's a great book called "The Alexander Technique" by
Michael Gelb... this book has several pictures of what he calls "Poise." Go
look at a copy and check out how "Poised" people hold themselves."):

Take a yoga class. TAKE A YOGA CLASS.

Yoga will:
1. Calm you down
2. Teach you to disassociate and detach when you need to.
3. Improve your body strength, flexibility and posture

(Commenting on: "Do ANYTHING different. Just change your behavior!
Try a new hairstyle, dress different, wear some glasses, get rid of your
glasses, put on a turban, I don't care! Just start acting different until
you find what works. Hell, maybe your calling is to be a surfer. Who knows."):

Right again.  I have a student, Chet, who needs NO help getting women; he'd
rival Rick H. But he wears the most attention grabbing black horn-rimmed
glasses with ornate gold leaf all over them.  Works for him. I know another
student who bought a long-haired wig and got lots of play from women.

Another great post by Sis...I'd really like a response to my last question
about the actual results when you press hard for the phone number (just
write it down!).  This issue of being strong without being so strong you
frighten them is a big one for me.

(Commenting on: "Boris  I've been studying SS and other seduction
techniques for about a year and a half and I still haven't had any results.
I've been to one of Ross's seminars, one of Major Mark's and have spent
thousands of dollars on seduction material and I still have not yet gotten
laid. It's been about a year now and I am still a virgin in my early 20's.
It frustrates me because it seems like everyone around me is getting laid
except me, and I'm well trained. These days, when others post success
stories they make me very jealous."):

Let me offer a metaphor.  Do you know anything about electricity?

Ok. What conducts electric current better? A sheet of gold foil? Or a sheet
of wood?

The answer is obvious.  The gold. The wood will just burn to a crisp if you
try to pass current through it.

My point: Who you are...your attitudes, states, beliefs, etc. are like the
conductive medium. If you take the current (all the new tools, patterns,
understandings) and try to pass it through the OLD medium (way of seeing
things, frame, mindset, state, beliefs) you will just burn up.

(Commenting on: ""So who are you? Why are you here?  What do you
want?  What are you gonna do to me?!?"  So right off the bat I tore up her
expectational script', her idea of what I was going to do.  She was
expecting Don Juan.  I gave her Howard Stern."):

Please understand, this IS a pattern of seduction. Stealing someone's
script and getting them OFF of auto pilot is one part of the eight spoked
seduction wheel that I explicitly teach.  But notice, you tore up her
script by stating what SHE was thinking.  Your words were a good match to
what SHE was thinking, so you also demonstrated authority in her
world...understanding of where she was at. That is another one of the eight

(Commenting on: "So she sits down, and I'm just hammering away at the poor
girl (with a smile in my eye, of course) and everyone is just loving it.
"Why would I 'seduce' you? Are you some kind of bisexual, sperm-loving
Goddess or something?"  Once I completely broke her model of what to
expect, THEN I started using blow job patterns and sexual accelerators on
her, but I framed them like this"):

Right. Again, I teach this explicitly.

(Commenting on: ""Steph, don't fuck with me, because I KNOW that you sleep
with alot of girls.  So why do you want to sleep WITH ME?""):

Because I think you're hot as hell and I want to fuck you. And I would love
to turn all the energy of that marvelous brain into the sheer pleasure of
pounding on my cock...

(Commenting on: "OOOOUUUUCH! (If anyone has a clever answer/pattern for
this, please comment!)
ME But YOU have a TREMENDOUS amount of yang, because you're not afraid to
ask for what you want out of life, you GO FOR IT (HA!), you don't run away
screaming from the little household spiders of life (earlier, she saw a
spider and grabbed it with a Kleenex and flushed it). You're not only very
intelligent, but eye contact)
HER Good...answer...(kisses me passionately)"):
You gave her a strong self-image to live up to!  That's another of the
eight spoked wheel methods.

(Commenting on: "(A separate comment by Stephane)
I seem to have made a mistake, by saying that I've been doing alot of NEGS.
I just did a search on ASF for the word 'neg' and I realize that I've been
doing alot more than just negs.  I thought negs were the Bratty little
Sister frame."):
Be careful. What you are doing is deeper, you are doing negs that match her
view of herself. So, you are viewed as an authority after that and your
words are given MUCH deeper weight. Capeesh?

(Commenting on: "Those of you who have read Provocative Therapy by Frank
Farelly know EXACTLY what I have been doing.  It's not exactly negs, but it
includes them.  Frank Farelly is a shrink who realized that being warm and
genuine and nice was not only dishonest, but just wasn't working in general
to help his patients.  He decided that his patients just needed a good kick
in the ass, because they are not "Broken", they are just stupid."):

No, you've got that wrong. I love FF and his book, but you've got the
reasoning wrong.

Farelly makes it very clear that being nice doesn't work because it doesn't
match the patient's perceived reality. It doesn't work because IT ISN'T

Frank isn't just pattern interrupting...he's pattern interrupting in a way
that matches the clients' views of themselves. THAT is why it has extra power.

Get it?

(Commenting on: "He blatantly insults his clients, teases the shit out of
them, etc. to get a rise out of them.  Basically what he does is he tells
them that there's no hope for them, because they are just too helpless, and
stupid, and ugly.  But by doing this, they set out to prove him wrong by
becoming better.  He is VERY funny, he's a walking, talking pattern

Yes, but understand context. Most of his work is done with patients inside
of institutions. These folks are almost NEVER treated in a straightforward
way. They are treated like children who can't handle hearing what folks
really have to say.

Frank knows that and he breaks through by starting out addressing them as
THEY perceive themselves!  Remember, the pattern being broken is the
pattern of how most other people communicate with the patients as well as
the patients' own patterns of communicating with others!

(Commenting on: "One example I remember from the book is this severely
obese woman walks into his office and he shouts, "OH my God!  The Goodyear
Blimp has slipped it's moorings!"  Another example is when he had a client
who was gay, and the client 'knew' that everyone judged him for being
gay.  So Frank starts telling him that he's RIGHT, that he can't stand
tutti fruttis, and starts telling the client not to get any funny ideas,
etc.  So the client immediately says, "You're full of shit, Frank, I know I
can trust you."
Now, this kind of communication needs to be delivered with alot of humor
and a smile in your eye, obviously, because otherwise you're just being an
asshole!  The trick is to be a FUNNY asshole.  And Frank always holds his
ground, and almost NEVER stops teasing and provoking them.  It's just
hilarious!  His clients try EVERYTHING to get him to stop, too!  Everything
from crying, screaming, threatening him, being passive, everything.  But
this guy just persists no matter what and his clients do good things and
clean up their act in order to prove him wrong."):

Again, you are on dangerous ground; his provoking works because it matches
their view of themselves. That is the ground level principle that powers
everything else.


(Commenting on Stephane: "(used it.  As Cliff already knows, my specialty
is young girls at bus
stops.  This is my favorite place to sarge.  First of all, they are usually
just standing there BORED so getting them to talk is easy.  Second, as
long as the bus hasn't arrived yet, they're STUCK with you!  Hehe, I like the
concept.  Third, if you don't get a chance to talk with her for whatever
reason, just note the time of day.  Chances are, she'll be there tomorrow
at the exact same time!  Fourth, there's no other competition around.  I
could list a hundred reasons why bus stop sarging RULES.)"):

Please do share some details! I catch the bus to work everyday, and have
been trying out some stuff, but without much success. I find it
especially hard to start up a convo while already on the bus. Or is it
easier to just chat at the bus stop instead? What have you found to work

(Commenting on Sisonpyh: "What I've been noticing lately is a key
distinction.  Some men have
body language» that INSTANTLY makes women feel uncomfortable. And some guys
have body language» that causes women to feel like "Hey, this is a cool guy
I want to talk to."):
This reminded me of an example from the movie "Groundhog Day". The way
that Bill Murray was working on Andy Macdowell and trying to bag her.
But he was simply rehearsing some routines he found to work and even
though he did get a lot of mileage out of it, he just couldn't close.
Only after he changed and was congruent in the new persona he created
(it didn't seem "acted" or "forced" anymore)... was he able to close

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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