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"I’m willing to overlook your flaws"

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I’m willing to overlook your flaws
9/6/01 11:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time


I just wanted to add an insight to this ongoing conversation...

One important distinction that I've made in my own personal life is the
difference between quality and quantity when as it relates to sex (this
idea is also applicable to personality, etc. but for now I'm just going to
talk sex).

This isn't something that I usually would talk about, but because of what's
been happening in my life lately, I thought it might be a helpful point to

It seems to me that getting laid has at least two sides to the coin. Some
guys like hooking up with a different woman each time they have sex for the
variety and novelty elements. I can certainly understand this desire... I
personally think that most male mammals would have sex with as many females
as they could if given the opportunity.

But once you have sex with several women, I think you begin to notice that
there can be a HUGE difference in the enjoyment level... that is to say,
one woman will make you feel like you just got dipped in Ecstasy while
another might be a cold, lame fish (smell and all).

So my point is two points:
1) When you find a woman that you like, keep having sex with her (even if
you still want to see other women... I personally advocate honesty, so make
sure everyone is on the same page).

2) Teach a woman that you're with to do the things you like, and make you
feel good.

I know these are obvious, but since I really haven't seen much about this,
I think it probably slips all of our minds too often, and we wind up
settling for OK sex when it could be mind-blowing.

Here are a few things I do:
1) I ask what a woman likes at the beginning, and learn how she likes it,
so in turn it will be natural for me to tell her what I like and how. If
it's set up this way, you can just start telling her how to do things...
and it will seem natural. If you don't set it up this way, then you run a
higher risk of giving her the impression that she's not good in bed...
which can lead to her getting emotional... which can lead to that curious
dry feeling between your legs.

2) Be expressive enough so she can tell what you like while the big
performance is taking place. If you are specific when you like something,
she'll be more likely to remember what it was. Don't just hope that it will
happen again accidentally. Tell her.

3) Of course, if I find a sexual beast who's also good company, I put her
into the rotation and see her every week or so (don't see a woman more than
once or twice a week unless you're thinking long-term. If you do, you run a
higher risk of setting up a 'social contract' in her mind and triggering
the long-term love emotions).

I know more than one great pick up artist that doesn't get laid that often
because he thinks that he has to always be having sex with a different
woman. It's kind of like a self-image thing that leads to either NEW or NONE.

Now don't get me wrong, several guys I know have sex with 1-4 new women a
month on average. For most guys, this would be a heavenly state of affairs.
But the fact is that my friends could be getting laid a lot more often if
they'd keep a couple of their conquests around... and they could make it
into really good sex by teaching these girls how to please them in detail.

Every liberating idea contains within it the danger of a new mental prison.
(That's an original quote that I just made up... and I think I like it...
I'm going to say it again).

Every liberating idea contains within it the danger of a new mental prison.


At the beginning of this year I was seeing a few women regularly, and
dating others when I could fit them in. But one of the women that I was
seeing was so far superior to any other chick that I've ever met, that I
turned the rest loose and have just dated her since. Now, admittedly, this
is the hottest woman that I've ever seen, met, or heard of... and she has
about three times the sex drive of any woman I've known, so it makes it
pretty easy. I know for a FACT that I get laid a lot more than some of the
killer pick artists that I know (who, incidentally kick my ass when it
comes to pure one-night-stand skills). But this is because I have a horny
beast of a woman that comes to my house about 5 times a week.

Now, I want to make sure that I'm being clear here... getting laid like a
rock star is great, and having sex with a whole bunch of women is A-OK, and
fun as well. But it takes time, effort and energy for those of us who
aren't in KISS or Motley Crue. Most of us have to work part of the time, be
family members and friends, shop, do laundry and sleep. There's only so
much available time that can be devoted to notching the belt. So use your
time well.

In any event, I've presented opposite ends of the spectrum here, plus a few

So if you're into conquests and banging as many new biatches as possible,
you might ask yourself whether or not it would be useful to keep some of
them around for awhile and teach them how to make you feel good.

And if you are just learning, try what I mentioned above in order to teach
a new woman how to make you feel better. It doesn't take much time or
energy, but trust me... it pays off big time.

Peace, love, and harmony. And chicks.

I'm from Argentina, and the interaction between men and
women is quite different here. The people from the States who come and
visit get carried away by it very fast.

So what's it like? It is sorta Latin lover, ball buster (an Argentinean
specialty) and friendly...
if you still wonder, it's pretty much the style and
attitude that Sisonpyh and some others practice.

Most of what was said for that style I already 'knew'
yet wasn't aware of it. I was raised in the States but
have lived here since high school. And I get a kick
outta watching people from the States come and get
blown away by the way we act. So here are some things,
adding to Sisonpyh's Zen teachings, that I've tried
and had fun with.

*Be friendly and teasing, but use lotsa eye contact
(sorta like a mixed message) and close physical
*Be a gentleman but always have an outrageous comment
or reply ready to mix in or response to what she says.
*Once there is rapport and defenses are down, try
something seductive/romantic and uncommon, then go
back to ballbustin' fun.
Once, after doing the spiel a bit, I kissed this
chick's fingers, saying they were pretty enough to be
kissed.  You could almost hear mind starting to wonder
'am I pretty enough to kiss???'.

Hey there, troops.  Long time no post.  These thoughts have been percolating
through my mind for a little while, so I thought I'd write them down and see
how it helps y'all have more fun.

Your effectiveness as a communicator (i.e. ability to lead) is directly
proportional to the authority you command, and this authority varies
according to context.  If you are an NLP teacher and you're at the front of
the room talking, you have all the power within reason, you can say and do
anything and make people follow you.  On the other hand, the same NLP
commands a lot less authority once he's on the subway, or even worse, at a
chef's convention where he is out of his element.  The other day I was
talking to
these girls behind the coffee shop counter, and it occurred to me that as
long as they are behind the counter, the power imbalance is mildly in their
favor, even if I am brilliant, handsome, witty, etc., because they are in a
local position of control.  Once they step out of that place -- say, they're
on break, or you see them somewhere else outside the coffee shop -- they no
longer have the power, and the gradient usually tilts in your favor, because
globally, you tend to possess more power.  The point?  There are obvious
contexts in which the women we find desirable will naturally have more local
power.  For maximal success, seek out neutral ground, or places that give
*you* the advantage.  This is why male bartenders and bouncers -- who, after
all, have low-skill, relatively low-paying jobs with minimal global power --
often have great success with women.  Model that and use it -- perform,
teach, lead a hiking trip, promote or DJ for a club, or just wear a big
goofy sparkly hat ; )

Gradients of Attraction:
It occurs to me that a lot of the boys on this list chase women down, or
even bum-rush them, often unbeknownst to themselves.  Remember that, after
approaching a woman, our job is not to chase them down, but rather to create
an attraction and let them chase us (this is a reiteration of Ross's
'submission vs. surrender' principle in another form).  Think of women as a
body of water, a river.  When you put obvious effort into chasing a woman,
it's like building a mountain -- and water does not flow uphill.  Rather,
you should make yourself into a receptacle -- a low-lying lake, or the ocean
itself -- and give her a chance to flow towards you (credit to Lao Tzu,
author of the Tao Te Ching, for coming up with this c. 2500 years before I
did).  Another analogy is that of the doctor and patient -- even if he/she
wants to, a patient never has the opportunity to help the doctor out,
because the roles of care giver and caretaker are so set.  Don't let that
happen in your interaction with women -- you want to make sure you give them
the opportunity to chase *you* down.  Relax, take stock, and be the
gentleman who will give her the satisfaction of eventually getting you, *if*
she does all the right things.  You'll be that much more valuable for
letting her work for it.

Time Constants:
When I first started out with SS, I focused very much on the first S speed.
Things were supposed to happen, and they were supposed to happen fast.  And,
miraculously, for a while they did. Some while later, in my old age and
wisdom, I've found that that is not always true.  Once again, it is
dependent upon -- context.  Different contexts have different time constants
for success associated with them.  If you undercut the time constant, you're
likely to be shut down early (or get serious buyer's remorse if you do
succeed); if you exceed that time constant, the sale gets stale and the
window of opportunity closes.  What am I talking about here?  OK -- in a bar
or club, speaking to a woman for 30 minutes is an eternity; if something's
happen, it's gonna happen fast.  15 seconds is too soon (unless you're in
Motley Crue), but waffle for more than 1-2 hours, and you'll lose the sale.  On
the other hand, the time constant for a colleague at work is on the order of
days or weeks if you hit on her too soon, you come off as a slime ball, so
you establish easy familiarity over time.  But if you take 6 months before you
do anything, chances are nothing is going to happen between you two.  You
catch my drift?  So, how do you apply this principle?  Well, gauge the time
constant for a given context -- bar = minutes to hours; coffee shop = hours
to days; bus stop, mall, street = seconds to minutes -- and tune your
performance (with beginning, middle, and end) so you can close in the
allotted time.  Which brings me to...

The Paramount Importance of Closing:
Guys, I cannot even tell you how many times I have had an opportunity or an
offer and I blew it because I forgot to close, or was too chicken shit to
close, or was too busy hanging with my buddies to close, or whatever.
Always, always close, and make sure you do it *at the very first
opportunity*.  I don't recommend that you assault people; what I do
recommend is that you go whole hog with all the resources at your disposal
*all the time* until you either get a solid close or a solid rejection.
Think of it this way given a chance between flying Boston-LAX nonstop, or
taking a flight with a stopover in Houston, which one would you take?  How
about a nonstop vs. a flight with *two* stopovers?  As you already know, at
every stopover the possibility of something unpredictable going terribly
wrong goes up exponentially.  So given the chance to get digits/kiss/bed a
woman *now*, vs. 3-4 dates later, which one would you choose?  Women's
emotional states tend to fluctuate much more than men's, and with them
delayed gratification guarantees only one thing - delay.  So, for them and
for yourself, be a gentleman and make sure they get the gratification they
crave and deserve *right now* (not least for the reason that next time,
*you* might lose interest, too).  Thinking about what could have been really
sucks, so just go for it to see where the story leads you.

(Commenting on "Boris  I've been studying SS and other seduction
techniques for about a year and a half and I still haven't had
any results."):

Boris - you're telling us you've not got laid yet, but surely that's
not the same thing as not having had ANY results?

Have you made any women smile, recently?

Have you taken any action towards your goal, and felt good about
having taken that action, regardless of the outcome?

How good are your calibration skills?
Without these you won't even KNOW when you're getting results!
I used to think that anchoring didn't work - because I lacked the skills
to see it working as I did it.

Pay attention - Get curious about people. Women are fascinating human
beings, with all the same inner complexities that you yourself have.

(Commenting on: "Boris   It's been about a
year now and I am still a virgin in my early 20's.
It frustrates me because it seems like everyone around me is getting laid
except me, and I'm well trained. These days, when others post success
stories they make me very jealous."):

Boris - I've been where you describe yourself to be.
I'm 28 and I was a relatively late starter, too, losing my virginity in
my mid-twenties. And that took quite a journey!

Looking back, I'm reasonably sure that all the technique in the world
wouldn't have got me laid before then. The change came from within me,
possibly as a direct result of some of the personal development work I
did. Happened shortly before I got into SS.
(I don't want to bore the list with the details here, other
than to remind them of Major Mark's suggestion that we can benefit
enormously from "getting out of our own way")

Not everyone on this list has started from the same point, so I don't
think it makes sense for you to compare your progress against other
people on the list. Measure your progress in terms of how much fun YOU are
having. Keep a journal, like Ross keeps recommending.

(Commenting on: "Boris I do go out and practice quite often,
but it's hard to keep motivated when
I'm not getting results."):
If you're still feeling frustrated, then take a holiday until it
goes away. Give up seduction for a month. Maybe just concentrate on
making some women feel good instead?

(Commenting on: "Boris I have not yet figured out how to not
worry about the outcome and just have fun.
Seduction to me always seems like work, like a task. I've heard time and
again, "don't worry about results, just have
fun." When I hear that I think to myself, "obviously,
if I COULD just have fun, I wouldn't have any problems."):

How about, just for a week to start with, you deliberately spend
all your interactions with other people focusing on them, the
things they do and what those things mean to them?
Forget your "get laid" agenda for a while.

Listen to your BHSC again (Ross puts things so much better than I do,
and saves me typing, too!)

Do some "Manny the Martian"'s. You may be like many guys I've met who
think they know what's going to happen when they do this, and so don't
bother. Don't miss out like they do, do it and see! If the kinds of
results I've had from doing Mannies are anything to go by, then you
cannot possibly fail to have fun doing this. Aren't you at least a little
bit curious as to what might happen when you do this?

You might even view Manny as a test - Does this woman have a sense
of humour? They're the ones you want.

Commenting on" ("Cliff's Comments Sisonpyh gave good
advice to go out and find guys who are successful and ask them for their
help.  I think this is probably the best thing I can suggest to you.  It is
a very difficult thing to do -- you have to let go of your outcome in order
to obtain it.  I am convinced that it is through other guys that your
success will come."):

I agree with this but with reservations. I've met some SS/PUAs who, while
they were definitely getting results (i.e. laid) were not people I'd want
to be myself.

I'd definitely recommend you find guys to imitate who are good at having
fun. I'm less sure that "number of scores" is such a good way to select your
role model. Anyway, it's for you to decide what kind of person you want to
be. For myself, I don't buy into this "Don't care about what the woman
thinks" mind set. Sure, don't let her thoughts (or your hallucinations,
thereof) send you into
a negative state, but that doesn't mean you can't be considerate of her
thoughts and feelings. I don't see much sign of "Capture and lead her
imagination" in Stephane's
recent post about David's methods..

Final bit of advice - I guess the last thing you want to hear right now,
having spent whatever on seduction products, is more course
recommendations. And somehow I doubt that more "technique" is what you
need at the moment.

Having said all that, I've just come back from
helping Peta Heskell run one of her one day flirting play shops, where the
emphasis is on having fun with people and being yourself at your best.

Guys who know me know that I'm always plugging Peta's material.
Yes, because I think it is really great stuff. I got a lot out of it myself
when I first attended one of Peta's play shops.

It is my opinion that if you want to develop the kind of playful,
open attitude that allows you to make SS work for you in the most humane,
people-centered, ethical, ecological, win/win, caring and understanding
fashion, then you'd view
attending one of Peta's play shops as an essential and complementary
pre-requisite to Ross' material.

And if you can't make it to a play shop, then you could always buy Peta's
book, "Flirt Coach" through Clifford's Amazon click-through and show your
support for Clifford and the great job he does of keeping this list
together, at the same time.

I heard that there's A LOT of people on here not posting, and I want to
encourage you to.  I, for one, would like to hear success stories, old and
new.  Remember, it's not bragging, it's a FIELD REPORT!  I used to keep a
journal, now I write here instead, because it really helps me.

Commenting on (Mark B.:
Thanks for your enlightening post.  I had NO IDEA that blacks were so into
white guys.  I'm lovin' this.

You asked "I also have questions on negs. Exactly what are the mechanics of
using them and why do they work?"

Instead of launching into theory here, I've collected all the negs I could
find on ASF.  After you've read them, you will understand EXACTLY why they


1- Do you like that color of lipstick?

2- You are so cute!!  (Most women don't like to be cute.)

3- SILENCE...  Let uncomfortable silences lay... In sales when you make a
proposal and they are silent because they don't like it... the first one to
speak - loses!!  Don't talk to her.

4- You notice she has fake nails.  "Nice nails. are they
real?" she will have to concede, "No, acrylic." and you say (like you
didn't notice it was a put down), "Oh. (pause) Well, I guess they still
LOOK good." Then he turns his back to her.

5- You say, "Ahhh, that's so funny ... your nose moves when you
speak... (pointing and being cute) look there it goes again ... it's so
... quaint ... hheeeeey looky."  She'll say, "Ahhh, stoppp!  *blush*.
Now she is self conscious and having her in this state is where you
want her. You have with 3 neg hits successfully created INTEREST
(curiousity) and removed her from her pedestal (removed her bitch
shield.) You were humorous, you had a smile, you dress well, you are
confident and everything she would want in a man.

6- Are those size ten shoes? (As if you really have no clue.)

7- Guy What do you do?
Gal Oh, I'm a model.
Guy  What, like a hand model or something?

8- "You don't get out much do you?"

9- "Ooh, check this out .... watch this. Here, pull my finger. This is
good." She will pull your finger and you go, "FFFFT! OH MAAANNN! You
actually pulled my finger! Haaa! No, no jus' kidding, here, really,
pull on my finger. No honest this is good. "Fffft! Oh MAN! THAT'S
TWICE!!! I can't believe you! My NIECE is 6 and doesn't fall for that
anymore!  Man haaa!"

10- If she says, "You are soo young" you reply cynically,
"Yeah ... poor you."

11- "Wow cool, you are friends? How long have you known each other?" when the
1st girl answers, say, "I didn't ask you silly."

12- "Hello, I'm talking, geez."

13- Excuse me I'm showing HER the pictures not YOU geez : ))

14- Excuse me... may I finish my sentence first?

15- Shh! people can see us!

16- Oooh... Sick... You just spit on me!

17- You're too short... but I'm willing to overlook your flaws.

18- You are nearly as tall as me. I like tall girls. Are those heels 4
or 5 inches?

19- You blink alot.

20- Wow, you're breathing kinda heavy : )

21- Ewww, your palms are sweaty ... ewwww!!!!! Where have your hands BEEN?!
No, don't tell me, I DO NOT want to KNOW! : )

22- You've got some lipstick on your teeth!

23- I like that dress. Weren't you wearing it the last time I saw you?

24- You   Did anybody ever tell you that you could be a model?
       Her   (real bitchy) Yes, all the time.
       You   I think they were just being polite.

25- SHE   "What do you do?"
      HE      "I seduce beautiful women. I'm what they call a 'Ladies Man'."
      SHE    "Well it ain't workin' on me."
      HE       "Well, you, ma'am, are no lady."

26- I took a gum out and offered it to her. She said, "No, thanks, I'm drinking
beer." I replied, "I know ... take the gum!"

27- When a woman compliments ANYTHING about you:
     "It's a routine compliment but I'll accept it"
      "You're not so bad yourself."

28- Walk up to this 10 and say, "Hi. Could you do me a favour?"
Wait for her to respond. They will usually think you are hitting on
them at which point you say, "Could you take a picture of my friend
Good subtle neg hit. Give her a playful additional neg hit by saying,
"You, of course, DO know how to use a camera ... yes?"

29- Want to go out for coffee?
"I don't drink coffee".
"Well, you can watch me drink..." (make a face like she's being
weird) "...Shit you could watch me eat for all I care."

30- If her dress is skimpy "That's a great dress you're almost wearing."

31- Hey, didn't you mow my lawn one time...?

32- You are so full of shit.....

33- You're so beautiful ... blah blah ... now that I've been nice, will you
me a cigarette?

Mark also asked "Why do women feel compelled to prove men wrong when
they're being
questioned?  Do negs have any basis in NLP and if so what is that basis?"

Don't YOU feel compelled to defend yourself sometimes?

And the 'basis' in NLP is simple.  You are using NLP to interrupt her
pattern.  She is expecting you to act like an AFC, and you are interrupting
that mechanism.  A neg is sort of like the ol' handshake interrupt.  Once
the pre-conditioned response has been interrupted, there's no program.  So
YOU supply the program LOWERED SELF ESTEEM!  GOD I love knowing this shit!
Of course, as RJ points out,  if you can use her self-image the power
multiplies. (We all owe the word NEGS to Mystery, I believe.)

Steph, commenting on Ross:
(Commenting on ""Steph, don't fuck with me, because I KNOW that you sleep
with alot of girls.  So why do you want to sleep WITH ME?"")

Because I think you're hot as hell and I want to fuck you. And I would love
to turn all the energy of that marvelous brain into the sheer pleasure of
pounding on my cock...

MMMMMMMMM!  That might of worked too!  Now that I have spent some time with
David, I'm beginning to feel more and more like this.  A good book on
intimidation might be in order here..... ; )

Steph commenting on Veroxii:
This reminded me of an example from the movie "Groundhog Day". The way
that Bill Murray was working on Andy Macdowell and trying to bag her.
But he was simply rehearsing some routines he found to work and even
though he did get a lot of mileage out of it, he just couldn't close.
Only after he changed and was congruent in the new persona he created
(it didn't seem "acted" or "forced" anymore)... was he able to close

Learned more about 'sarging' in that movie than almost any other movie.
He went from being selfish to being generous, sarcastic to genuine. He just
kept pursuing her until he believed his own lies.  And this movie is so
funny, it's perfect for dates and is just an all-around amazing film.

Steph, commenting on Veroxii ("Please do share some details! I catch the
bus to work everyday, and have been trying out some stuff, but without much
success. I find it
especially hard to start up a convo while already on the bus. Or is it
easier to just chat at the bus stop instead? What have you found to work

I rarely start up with a girl ON the bus.  I haven't gotten used to
audiences yet!  I WILL start up with girls that are talking pretty LOUD,
but then it's easy.  My views have changed dramatically since I met David
this weekend, and now see myself being able to do it easily.  I now see
other people around as leverage.  Something I can use to my advantage.

Because if other people are watching/listening, she has to be on her BEST
behavior.  Somehow or other, that appeals to me!  Since she 'has' to be
nice, just have a pleasant convo.  I'm cured!  Does anyone else have
thoughts on public sarging?

At the bus stop alone, she can EASILY back away, flake, be rude, etc.
because nobody is watching her, she doesn't feel as much obligation to
'behave properly'.  I'm curing myself out of years of not being able to
sarge publicly here!

Anyway, I don't have much in the way of specific wordings.  I do love it
when they talk about something out loud.  That way, I can just cut in.  If
they happen to be talking about things that I am interested in, I'm a happy
man.  I also love taking things that they say "out of context" and starting
to laugh and 'attack' them playfully.  That has worked nicely in the recent
past.  I just pretend like I misunderstood something that she said, and
playfully 'attack' her on it.

If they get offended, I 'ignore' it.  I'll look at her like "You are such a
prude/snob and keep going, and smiling more, giggling, etc until they give in.

Stephane commenting on Ross ("Most guys do need to slow down! ")

If you guys remember my story about HBbarbie from last weekend, my friend
Scott bumped into her the other day and asked her what was her experience
of me.  And I never thought this would ever happen, but she said that I was
talking TOO slowly!  I have never been told this before and was shocked,
because I have no re-collection of having talked slowly at all.  I thought
I might have spoken too FAST, because this used to be my tendency.  So
don't overdo it either!  But generally, guys speak too fast.  I have been
working very hard at slowing down my movements, voice, etc., and have had
good results with it.

Stephane commenting on Ross ("Please understand, this IS a pattern of
seduction. Stealing someone's script and getting them OFF of auto pilot is
one part of the eight spoked seduction wheel that I explicitly teach.  But
notice, you tore up her script by stating what SHE was thinking.  Your
words were a good match to what SHE was thinking, so you also demonstrated
authority in her world...understanding of where she was at. That is another
one of the eight spokes.... "):

I'd love to get my hands on your spokes.  What course are they in?

Stephane, commenting on Ross ("Be careful. What you are doing is deeper,
you are doing negs that match her view of herself. So, you are viewed as an
authority after that and your words are given MUCH deeper weight. Capeesh?"):

You flatter me!  Although I haven't had much exposure yet to your stuff (I
have listened to BHSC once), it's obvious that we have shared a lot of the
same teachers, especially FF and Bandler!  I wish I had met you guys
sooner!  But this is exactly what I have been experimenting with the most
these days.  I try to figure out how she views herself, and use it as
Please understand that I am doing this to find out if she matches MY
criteria, not to take advantage of her in any way, because unless we BOTH
view it as a win/win I won't sleep with a girl.  I have had plenty of girls
that I COULD have gotten naked with but didn't, because they weren't mature
enough emotionally.  But this is very powerful.  Because when you know how
to frame something to make it fit inside their CORE identity, they will do
it.  So this stuff definitely has to be used carefully.

Stephane commenting on:
("Ross Commenting on "Those of you who have read Provocative Therapy by
Frank Farelly know EXACTLY what I have been doing.  It's not exactly negs,
but it includes them.  Frank Farelly is a shrink who realized that being
warm and genuine and nice was not only dishonest, but just wasn't working
in general to help his patients.  He decided that his patients just needed
a good kick in the ass, because they are not "Broken", they are just stupid."
No, you've got that wrong. I love FF and his book, but you've got the
reasoning wrong.
Farelly makes it very clear that being nice doesn't work because it doesn't
match the patient's perceived reality. It doesn't work because IT ISN'T
Frank isn't just pattern interrupting...he's pattern interrupting in a way
that matches the clients' views of themselves. THAT is why it has extra

Yes, not only self-image but model of the world in general.   'Niceness'
was failing for FF because his patients perceived it as FAKE.  Frank does a
lot more than pattern interrupts.  He takes whatever they are conflicted
about and plays Devil's advocate with them.  So if he wants to boost their
self-esteem, for example, he will cut into them, insult them, mimic them,
badger them so that they will defend themselves.  He finds the limitations
in his clients' world-model and encourages them!  If you believe you are
ugly and therefore can never find love, for example, FF will agree with
you, and start listing all the reasons why this is so!  Your nose is too
big.  Your dick is too small.  You look like a rat.   If you believe that
women are all whores, he would probably agree to that too, and he'd give
THEORIES on why this is so!  He will exaggerate your limited world view,
and offer NOTHING in the way of advice or positive feedback.  FF is a
fucking RIOT!!
If anyone has any info on how to purchase VIDEOTAPES by Frank Farelly,
please let me know.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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