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You can be something really worthwhile
9/9/01 12:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Just wanted to concur with what some of the guys have been posting. Control
is paramount in keeping a relationship interesting. My first LTR was
completely screwed up because I told her I loved her. Instantly the control
shifted and she started to freak out because she was scared of commitment
and she realized that she could manipulate me.
Better, I feel, to be more descriptive with your emotions, that way you
avoid negative anchors and you can plant some suggestions too.

In regards to David's suggestions about ALWAYS keeping control, I personally
think he's right. However as Ross said, why would anyone WANT to be always
in control? Surely you're hampering her creativity and spontaneity if you
are always in control. Well then, why not frame her control? For instance,
'Babe, I'd really like you to decide where we're going tonight.'  Well then
she's giving you her opinions and desires, but you have ALLOWED her to do
so. Or how about 'If you don't feel comfortable, then we can leave' with this
you have ALLOWED her to object. If she offers her opinion and you haven't
asked for it, then simply reject it unless it coincides with what you want.
If it does coincide with what you want then make a big deal out of it. Why
not condition her to do what you want? We do it with our pets...

I was watching this crummy dating program on TV a few nights ago, and it's
amazing how bad most men are at relating to women!!  Haha.  Anyway this one
girl goes off at how this guy never even listened to her. So I
started thinking... what would happen if all I did was listen... So I went
about procuring a date to test it out. I found this nice looking girl and
got her to come to dinner with me.

So there I am at this sweet little cafe sitting with this girl. She's
originally quite shy but I just ask her a few questions and she starts to
rant about something or other. I'm mirroring her like a ghost, being with
her in her emotions. Whenever she asks me a question I turn it around and ask
her what she thinks. All the time she's smiling and laughing. (I'm naturally
very talkative, I had to really struggle to not say anything, especially
when she was talking about music. I do crack a couple of jokes at certain
high points in the evening, just to set some anchors.)

Her  Blah blah blah. So, what made you want to ask me out?
Me  Well, I had reservations for these seats, and my girlfriend couldn't
come. These are great seats aren't they?
Her  (laughing) Are you joking?
Me  Of course... (set off the laughter anchor, just to make sure I didn't
offend) So what made you accept my offer?

I used silly things like that to avoid her questions all evening. Then I
just swapped it around so she was talking ALL THE TIME. (I was going for
total one way conversation to prove a theory.)  At the end of the evening she
turns to me and says 'That was a great evening. I feel really close to you.'
(bearing in mind she knows absolutely nothing about me except my name and
telephone number).  I smile and move in for a kiss on the cheek. She kisses me
on the lips. She takes a step back and looks deep into my eyes. I smile
again and arrange a second date. Now, she knows absolutely nothing about me,
she has opened herself up to me, she has not stopped calling me, and I'm
pretty sure she's ready for a close. Not bad for a silly theory test. (I
probably could have closed on the first date, but I wanted to see if she
would suggest it, which she didn't.)  That's with very little patterning at
all, just me being funny and listening EVERY single time. Occasionally I
would bring up something she had said earlier to reaffirm that I was
listening, and because she would enter a pleasure state on a couple of

So what do you guys think about that? Obviously I got pretty far. There's
got to be some negative sides to it, and I'm pretty sure you can point them


The Shark Unified Inter-Gender Interaction Structure(SUIGIS):
I have been on this list for a while and have decided
to synthesize the ideas of the main PU gurus who make
this list worth being a part of.
Below is what I have called the Shark Unified
Inter-Gender Interaction Structure(SUIGIS). It’s a bit
like Linux for those of you who know what open
software development is about. The information is
obtained from this list, and some other information
sources that I have been open to, over my few months
of foraying into the world of  cross gender
interaction and communication.
It would be a great pleasure for me if any of the
gurus will make any comment or scathing criticism or
inject some more specifics into the structure below
until this ultimately becomes “the intelligent,
disciplined, focused, flexible man’s comprehensive
guide to meeting, dating or choosing not to date but
sleeping with or choosing not to sleep with the woman
/women of his choice his life.
This is the  seminal work for the ultimate unification
of the various schools.
Clifford I naturally look forward to your personal
contribution to SUIGIS  and to take a Dictaphone and
have an in depth discussion with your man David about
this structure and sarging as a whole and get some
more feedback. That guy’s the man.

1)At Home
Practice positive affirmation (Ross)
Practice positive visualization (Ross)
Continuous learning (Common Sense)
Practice Pattern delivery with content intonation
lead-ins context and timing (Ross)
Understand Pattern theory
Practice pattern creation
Study Humour (Sis)
Learn to be a raconteur , performer of stories, entertainer (Mys)
Exercise to develop areas you lack, i.e. stamina,
flexibility, muscle, etc.
Collect stock phrases to be practiced and used
appropriately, one liners, closes, film lines, etc.
2) Form the following habits:
Self control
Positive action
Dressing well
Grooming well
Voice control to inject force, humor, etc.
Mental pre-preparation. Negotiators, soldiers go with
a plan; stick to it and debrief.
“Unplanned spontaneity yields no fruits”

With Her
3) Assess her, the time and the place and decide which
path you will take.(Sun Tzu)
Paramount thought
Don’t concern yourself unduly with what she’s thinking
Don’t concern yourself unduly with what those around
are thinking (my extension of David)
a) NLP
-Depending on what you choose or the situation, you can
get rapport by mirroring body and matching sentiments
-Steer the conversation to allow patterns (Ross)
-As you deliver don’t concern yourself with her
thoughts of what is he trying to do, what is this
stuff, etc. - don’t give a shit
-Be concerned with what you want her to have in her
mind and how it’ll make her feel and then act. (David)
-Value demo story could contain some embedded commands
(Mys + Ross)
-Elicit her values and regurgitate and anchor (R)
b)Non NLP
-Do what is right and necessary, aggressively and
congruently (David)
-Say “NO” directly without flinching (Sis)
-Neg and Tease depending on rating (Sis + Mys)
-Reveal one or two rules of yours early on and more
later (David)
-Drop a profound statement or idea (Sis)
-Watch for her negs and shock her immediately if she
tries it on you (MrSex4UNYC)
-Demonstrate value with all of above or tell value
demo story (Mys)
-Break rapport to use assumed rapport (Sis)
-In the beginning drop hint that you select (Sis)
-Don’t supplicate.  Study this in James Bond, etc.

4)To start off:
a)Choose 3 patterns
b)Memorize them
c)Try adapting them to suit your way of speaking
d)Know how and when to weave them into convo and try
each one 50 (YES FIFTY) times in the field. (Mys)
e)Look out for pattern situations in films and in
general and be imaginative
f)Debrief yourself each time or as much as you can and
learn from your gaffes
g)Approach with mentality that SHE could get to like
YOU and if SHE just want to be friends SHE can
introduce YOU to some friends YOU can bone. (David)
h)Choose a type of joke and master it then move to the
next type
In all things endeavor to maintain the PUA code of
silence. Similar but not equivalent to OMERTA.


Stephane commenting on Adrian ("I don't see much sign of "Capture and lead her
imagination" in Stephane's recent post about David's methods..."):

It’s there, but you’d have to meet David to see it.  David has a charm
about him that can definitely help a woman’s imagination to get a little

I can’t write everything about David, so I just wrote the stuff that he
does that, for the most part, goes against what I had been taught in the
past.  I wrote what interested me the most.

One of the things I said was not to think about/worry what she is thinking.
This doesn’t mean don’t calibrate.  It means do what you want to do in your
general life, and don’t be afraid to do it.  Very similar to the ol‘ don’t
make excuses for your desires’ that Ross teaches.  David just phrases it

Commenting on: "Ross commenting on Stephane (Ross
(Commenting on "He talks a lot about being in control, and stresses the
importance of always having the upper hand, always being in the lead. Always!")
You know, that's a HELL of alot of work. Used judiciously, I see the power
of it, but ALWAYS? Christ on a Cuckoo clock...I don't WANT to make every
decision.  At least long term, I'd like a woman with some kind of will of
her own.
ALWAYS needing to be in control hides a fear of being abandoned.  No
thanks. Wrong place to start.  As a good way to behave a good part of the
time, I love it. But all the time? TOO MUCH WORK! NO THANKS!"):

Yes, always.  According to David, a woman needs to know who is in charge at
all times, otherwise she will lose interest because she won’t feel safe.
She needs to know at all times that ‘you are the man’, etc.   He doesn’t
say to be a control freak, however.  OBVIOUSLY you gotta let the chick
Pick the restaurant, but let her choose what she would like to eat.

I could be wrong, but I didn’t sense David to be too big on equality!  In
David’s world, the male is supposed to dominate the female.  He refers to
the caveman model of power and domination. Now this kind of talk is easy to
criticize, but it has some merit.

This may sound funny, but David isn’t ‘macho’ at all.   He balances all of
this ‘controversial’ stuff with a basic, fundamental caring for
women.   And I wish I could describe him better.   I would love to see a
seminar with David and yourself.  Everyone that saw David that day were
blown away with him.  I’ve been involved with NLP/DHE, etc. for ten years
and he is right up there (skill-wise) with some of the best trainers I’ve
seen and heard.

Stephane commenting on: "Mark (Basically the degree of your ability to
assert yourself
seems to be directly proportional to the degree of success.)":

Words of wisdom.  You put it so well, and the more I assert myself the more
they seem to be attracted.  And this goes against everything women have
TOLD me (The same women that JUST happened to be sleeping with assertive
In fact, I had a very interesting discussion with my girlfriend tonight.  I
told her about someone on this list who uses an interesting technique on
women.  He holds his glass of beer in front of his chest, and as he talks
to an HB, he will ‘innocently’ touch her breasts with his hands.  Now, I
told her about this and she responded, “Well, I would probably go along
with it, too, and let him touch my breasts.  Because after all, if he has
that much confidence, it’s a turn-on.”

Commenting on: "(She recoils and I say "What's wrong with
you?  You jumped like a 15 year old virgin." Down her panties my hand went.)":

For some strange reason, women DO NOT want us thinking they are virgins.  I
have used this, “What are you a VIRGIN or something?!”  line and gotten
good results with it.

Commenting on: "Jeff (M I was just wondering...what would I have to
get really
I’m glad to hear that someone finally field-tested this underrated line!  I
got it from Bandler.  The only way she can answer this question is to
trigger her own natural attraction strategy.  This question is therefore a
powerful mindfuck.  I have also had lots of success with it.  A lot of the
time they’ll go, “I don’t know” in which case you just raise your eyebrows
expectantly and wait for the answer.  Once it didn’t work for me, and she
said, “Buy me a car”, etc.  She just kept on avoiding giving me a straight
answer, so I dropped the subject and let her off the hook.  It’s a good
thing cause the turned out to be 16!

Commenting on: "(H I don't know.  How old are you?
(Practically every girl asks me this!  Either they think I look to old or
in this case too young.  So I try to remember something else I believe I
read on Cliff's list)":

I get this A LOT.  I just have a baby-face, and at age 25, I still can’t
get a pack of smokes without ID!  It’s great because I enjoy young girls,
but on the other hand, 30+ women rarely take me seriously.  My standard
reframe is to say, “Awwww!  Poor you, you’re gonna have to teach me
everything, sweety!”  and if that doesn’t work, I will go into my “Do you
believe in reincarnation?” reframe.  But I only JUST started sarging older
women and haven’t closed too many deals, so I’m no expert.

Commenting on: "(I felt pretty good with this HB although I still
couldn't pick out any trance words while I was talking to her, but I was
really proud of my performance.)":

That’s because you performed like a pro.  You’ll get her trance words later
on after you sleep with her and elicit her relationship values.  Whenever a
girl has said to me, “Good answer!” to one of my questions, I hear a voice
in my mind that goes, “Her ass is mine!”.  Thanks for the field-report,
THIS is exactly the kind of things I like to read about.

Commenting on: "Gwiz (Jesus H. Christ!  Did I have to do some
unlearning after studying SS as opposed to the Women are from Venus blah
blah supplication framework!)":

John Gray is the Hitler of relationships.  I’ve read most of his books.
Let’s focus on what makes men and women different so as to justify being
unpleasant to each other.

Commenting on: "(Told me later she felt like a "sacrificial lamb" when
introed to me.)":

Sounds to me like she is telling you something here!  Either she is telling
you that she is afraid of you (doubt it) or she is surrendering to you.  I
would have tried closing her right then and there.

Commenting on: "(you fucking idiot!...37 years
old...studying SS for a year...psychologist...and you STILL can't think of
anything to say to a girl)":

Amen, brother, amen!  How many times have I thought the exact same
thoughts...hesitating and hesitating, only to find out later that she is a
total slut.  I once dated an HB10 and I was so afraid to fuck her that I
waited 4 months!!!  When we broke up, an old friend asked me why didn’t I
fuck her.  I said she wasn’t that kind of girl.  He then proceeded to list
the names of about ten guys I went to high school with that fucked her, and
several of them fucked her simultaneously.  OUCH!  Then again, maybe I’m
better off…NAH!  I should have fucked her brains out when I had the chance!

Commenting on: "(how do you remind yourself to stay "switched on'
or switch yourself on in an instant...I've tried anchoring the state but
it's never seemed to work for me...does anyone have any "psych up "

Yes, I do.  You must try to always ALREADY be in a switched on state.  I
try to live my life in a good state, this way I don’t have to worry about
‘getting there’ because I already am.  Self-anchors don’t do much for me
either.  The best ‘anchor’ for me when I don’t know what to say is to make
fun of her/tease her.  This state comes pretty naturally to me, so it’s
rarely a problem.  From there, it becomes easy to transition into almost
any other state.  But the best would be to make it so that WOMEN trigger
the states you wanna be in (DUH!), just by virtue of being around
them.  Also, a lot of people I know have cured themselves by using the UC
tapes, and one guy I know cured himself of a social anxiety disorder with
them.  His shrink must’ve been pretty pissed off about that…

Stephane (Commenting on: "Stephanie   It appears that there are mainly two
types of people in your list;  the ones who desperately want to be "the
man" and the others who think they are
"the man".)":

Yes, and then there’s guys like me who want to learn everything that they
can in order to meet, attract, and experience higher and higher level’s of
fulfillment in their relations with women.

Commenting on: "(I think the sexiest and most lasting way to keep a woman
is to be
yourself.  If she does not like you, then so be it.  Shit happens.)":

I respectfully disagree.  Be yourself.  I never knew that there was an
alternative!  I suppose you could be someone else, or a multiple,
technically, but it’s still YOU being a multiple.

Besides, why be yourself when you can be something really worthwhile??

Being yourself really means ACCEPTING your limitations, instead of learning
to get what you want out of life.

Sensuality, flirting, socializing, state control, persuasion, and SARGING
aren’t taught in schools, and a lot of people are suffering big-time as a
result of this.  One of the biggest problems in our society is
LONELINESS.  These people don’t need vague, ‘be yourself’ advice.  They
need to learn how to relate to the opposite sex.

Commenting on: "(But if she does like you in spite of knowing the real you,
that is much
more substantial than being able to make her think that you are the man she
wants and risk having her wake up and having a sane thought sometime
throughout your life together.)":

We aren’t ‘making her think’ that we are someone we are not.  Nobody here
is pretending, lying or deceiving anyone.  We are becoming more, because we
are learning new, valuable skills.  Communication skills, that are designed
to make us BOTH feel understood, appreciated, and sexy.  And everyone
deserves that.

I want to learn how to seduce women, and the more I learn about this stuff,
the more the women in my life appreciate it.  Women say things to me now
that I used to only dream of.  Instead of saying, “Steph, you’re such a
nice guy”  NOW they are starting to say, “I love it when you talk like
that.” Or “You make me feel like a woman” Or even just “Fuck me now!”

I now have the confidence to start a conversation with the girls I’m
attracted to.  Do you know how many men only WISH they had that?  MILLIONS.

I’m no Master SSer, but I am WAY AHEAD of most average guys now in this
department, and it feels great!  I LOVE MY LIFE.  Now when I talk to girls,
I have fun, and so do they.  And although most of them have no idea that I
study this stuff, they do appreciate it!  Just ask my girlfriend (a cute
redhead that I NEVER would have had the balls to pickup in the past).  Ask
her if she’s glad that I took the time to learn how to communicate and
connect with women.


Here's a chick I met before on aol. Found her thru the member directory
and searched by location. We spoke briefly, I got her pic
(shes very hot).  I cut it short and told her I gotta go, and that
I'd speak to her when I have more time.

Caught her online tonight, and here's how it went down.

  HB     yo
  VINIGARR   whatcha doing home.. ?
  HB     relaxing and u?
  VINIGARR   getting ready for adventure
  HB     yea what's that
  VINIGARR   everything .. : )
  HB     cool miss me
  VINIGARR   miss u, I can't even explain you
  HB     huh?

** she didn't get this, so I changed the subject. BTW Bay Ridge is
a part of Brooklyn, with bars & clubs, which previously she said she

  VINIGARR   Bay Ridge baby!!!!
  VINIGARR   u don't like hangin' in Bay Ridge, right

**I was attempting to get her to say I like Bay Ridge, and
I would lead into us getting a drink together. I lost her
here, so I baited her with the following...***

  VINIGARR   I'm gonna tell u sumthin u probably never heard b4
  HB     what's that
  VINIGARR   you're a brat!!!!!!!!
  HB     I've heard that b4. why u calling me a BRAT?
  VINIGARR   u know why
  HB     no I don't
  VINIGARR   u heard it b4... but never got the answer?
  HB     nooooo
  VINIGARR   you're cute
  HB     aww
  VINIGARR   I'm glad we are friends
  HB     yeah I'm sure
  VINIGARR   and you're a good friend right
  HB     yeah
  VINIGARR   so why don't u hook me up with some of your girls
  HB     why no hook up with me ? can't handle me?
  VINIGARR   I like u as a friend
  HB     damn
  VINIGARR   besides, u can't handle me
  HB     yeah, right
  VINIGARR   really
  HB     yeah I can
  VINIGARR   got any hot friends
  HB     yup
  VINIGARR   the kind that like a MAN
  HB     yeah
  VINIGARR   so what u waiting for?
  VINIGARR   get em out tonight
  HB     u baby I want u
  VINIGARR   awww how sweet
  VINIGARR   I'll let u get me a drink.. but that's it
  HB     oh yea
  VINIGARR   what's up with ur girls
  HB     what's up with me
  HB     don't u like me
  VINIGARR   I like u
  HB     yeah
  VINIGARR   now will u bring around a few hotties
  HB     I'm ALL U NEED
  VINIGARR   lol
  VINIGARR   you're cute
  HB     serious
  VINIGARR   hey we're friends.. n friends.. look out for me.. u know
  HB     yeah and friends can be lovers
  VINIGARR   that's true
  HB     ok
  VINIGARR   u hangin' with the girls tonight?
  HB     some
  VINIGARR   ok.. I'll let u introduce me to only the hot ones... right
  HB     ok
  VINIGARR   u got any pics
  HB     of me
  VINIGARR   I know what u look like
  VINIGARR   you're friend
  HB     no but I'm outta here gotta go in the shower talk to ya soon muahhhhh

*** I thought I lost her, but the following got her back ***

  VINIGARR   brat!!!!!!!
  HB     why am I a brat, huh?
  VINIGARR   cuz u play hard to get for ur friend
  HB     that's cause I want u for myself
  VINIGARR   what's up wit dat?!?!??!?!
  HB     just told ya
  VINIGARR   well, we're friends
  VINIGARR   now be a good friend and hook me up!!!!
  HB     still are baby, u know u love me -*
  VINIGARR   u gonna be in Bay Ridge anytime soon
  HB     tomorrow
  VINIGARR   if I give u my number.. u ain't gonna call 1 million times are u?
  HB     oh yeah
  VINIGARR   good, cuz thats how many times u got to reach me
  HB     yeah
  VINIGARR   yeah
  VINIGARR   I can't give it out, gimme urs again

**** Who usually says they can't give it out?? Gimme
yours again??? As if I had it already... hahaha.. did I lose it??***
  HB     I can't give mine out
  VINIGARR   brat!!!!!!
  HB     that's me
  VINIGARR   ok so how u gonna hook me up
  HB     gimme ya number punk
  VINIGARR   I'll hook u up 2
  HB     oh yeah
  VINIGARR   I'll tell u what, I'll trade w/ya
  HB     ohh yea
  VINIGARR   I'll meet ur friends n
  VINIGARR   I'll hook u up 2, fair
  HB     ok
  VINIGARR   718
  HB     718
  VINIGARR   930
  HB     99310
  VINIGARR   what a brat

*** she was playing with the #, and I knew it. The following got a response.
You'll see a pattern... nahhhhh***

  VINIGARR   ur definitely getting a spanking from me
  HB     ###-###-####

**** Think she's digging this spanking shit???? ****

  VINIGARR   is that a # u answer
  HB     huh
  VINIGARR   u answer that #
  HB     yeah
  VINIGARR   ok fair ###-###-####
  VINIGARR   don't call me tonight
  HB     why not
  VINIGARR   I'm busy, if u know what I'm saying

*** here my phone rings, with her number showing..... hahahahah****

  VINIGARR   funny
  HB     huh
  VINIGARR   funny
  HB     u  love me, admit it
  VINIGARR   cute
  HB     yea ain't I?  Gotta love me

*** Here we make plans to hang out and make friends. I tell
her what to wear, how to act, and to bring pics of her hot friends***

  VINIGARR   u hear me
  HB     my battery died
  VINIGARR   cool
  VINIGARR   look I gotta jet
  VINIGARR   shower n all
  HB     ok bye
  VINIGARR   remember what I said, k, brat!
  HB     ok bye muahhhhhh

Nice !  : )


Definitely some good material provided by Stephane. My question,
however,  is Stephane's story regarding staring deliberately at a woman's
tits during a pool game. I also read where she said "good-bye" which
might have been just a flirtatious thing on her part.

It is my understanding that it is not good to give what a woman wants. I
tend to agree with this, and if an HB is walking around with her cans
hanging out, she probably wants guys to look at them, which in a sense
is giving her the control. One writer on seduction wrote that "
soon as an HB sees that you "notice" her, than you are stuffed and
mounted." That is why I will make it a point to be very nonchalant and
indifferent around a hot looking chyck who seems to want attention.

Someone mentioned in a previous newsletter that pretending not to notice
a chyck is "..the oldest trick in the book." but how many HB's will
assume that your indifference is simply pretending/posturing on your
part??  Is it not better to be indifferent and not be like every other
AFC who gives the HB the attention she wants? I would like further
feedback from bros. on this.


(Commenting on: "Stephanie   It appears that there are mainly two types of
people in your list;  the ones who desperately want to be "the man" and the
others who think they are
"the man".  I wonder about the ones not in this newsletter who are getting
the women and not talking about it to educate or boast to others, probably
because they have their hands full.  I find that more fascinating than over
analyzing how to get whom you want, when you want
them.  I think the sexiest and most lasting way to keep a woman is to be
yourself.  If she does not like you, then so be it.  Shit happens.  Toughen
up.  But if she does like you in spite of knowing the real you, that is much
more substantial than being able to make her think that you are the man she
wants and risk having her wake up and having a sane thought sometime
throughout your life together.  (I know that is close to impossible, but you
never know with us women!  We can throw you a curve from time to time.)"):

This is the first time I have posted and have been reading this thing on and
off for two years now. This is the first time that I have felt compelled to
write something as I disagree strongly with what Stephanie has to say above.
"I think the sexiest and most lasting way to keep a woman is to be yourself.
If she does not like you, then so be it.  Shit happens."  Why would you
settle for that? If someone handed you tools that could help you to avoid
having the shit happen, what is the downside in using them? The greatest thing
that I have learned from this wealth of information I have been reading about
is that learning to communicate in the most effective way possible is the
hottest thing to a girl. It allows you to be completely yourself and be
totally understood. To pigeon hole everybody on this list into two categories
is both silly and untrue. Why suffer the slings and arrows when an
alternative exists? Why do something that doesn't work so that you can suffer
and then "toughen up"? That seems like some old school military thinking -
that which does not kill us makes us stronger. You know what? I don't need to
be out trying to kill myself so I can get stronger. I'll leave that up to you
as I'll be out meeting great, smart, funny, attractive women and being able to
talk to them in a way where we both learn something. I don't need
negativity or aggressiveness or bad attitude...I've worked too hard to
all those obstacles and be congruent with myself - finally I can just be me.
In spite of myself.


Here is something that I want to share with the list.  Although I believe
it is
hard to convey, and I'm hoping that it might spark some interesting
discussions that might lead to some more understandings about this topic for
everyone here (including me).

Yesterday, I met a hottie at an esoteric yoga meditation meeting.  There
seemed to be an immediate chemistry and I really didn't have to do much
seduction with her.  Although I still need to seduce her, it will happen.
Unfortunately, she had to leave early for work.  It was a lot of fun playing
with her because she really wanted to find out about me and she was asking
all of the usual questions, i.e. How old are you, where do you live, what
do you
do, what religion are you, etc.  I never gave her straight answers.   This
just motivated her further.  Several times she said "I can't figure you out."
I just asked her "Why is it important to figure me out?"  She said "I'm an
analytical person."  I told her that that is why she can't figure me out.  You
can't just put me in a box.  I'm not meant to be figured out, I'm meant to be
experienced, and enjoyed.  There are certain things in life that it is more
important to experience DEEP WITHIN (subtle crotch point) and enjoy than
analyze things like laughter, joy, passion, excitement, meditation, and sex.
At another point she commented "You always answer my questions with a
question."  I said, "Do I do that?" Yes!  "OK, I do that sometimes, don't you
love it?"  Got a laugh and a playful slap.  Anyway, I realized that this is
something that I frequently do.  I think it has some of the effect that
discusses with treating someone like your bratty kid sister (another thing
that I tend to do, and Stephane that was spot on and an excellent,
excellent way
of describing how to relate to most woman), and I think it offers some of the
benefits of neg hitting without having to insult or knock someone off a
pedestal (I believe very strongly in raising yourself up to their pedestal
rather than knocking anyone down).
There is a balancing act so as not to frustrate them and also disclose enough
so that you get to know them.  For example, when she said "How old are you?"
I said "Age is an attitude.  Why is age important to you?"  She then said "I
bet I'm older than you."  I asked her age, and she really shocked me because
she was 2 years older than me, and I would have guessed that she was about
8-10 years younger than me.  Once she told me her age, I told her my age.  I
could have played a lot with age like doing Rick's bit about how age is
different for woman than it is for men, but I passed on the issue.  Another
thing I do sometimes is just ignore their questions or treat it with
silence.  One way I do that is by asking them a question about some other
topic.  I don't do this with the important or difficult questions.  Those
questions I generally answer.  Usually I do this by occasionally bypassing
questions that have her somewhat intrigued, excited, curious (usually about
me).  Frequently, these are questions about either some skill I had or
something I did to get a certain result.  For example, how I learned to do a
certain massage/bodywork technique, how I learned hypnosis, or how I know
something, etc.  Sometimes I'll just smile and say it is a secret, or ancient
secret, or secret for some group (fraternity, profession, tribe, whatever).
Or, another favorite is I could tell you but I'd have to kill you.
Sometimes, I'll just pace them and say "You sure are curious.  Hey, that's a
good thing because it helps you learn and it helps us have fun.  So what else
are you thinking about?"
This usually bypasses the question.  Sometimes, (rarely) I'll start talking/
dancing around a subject, get sidetracked with a story and not answer the
question.  She is left hanging, but so long as she goes with me and we
interact while talking about a story, experience, or joke, this works great.
But, don't just give an inappropriate answer and nothing more.  You need to
get her absorbed, and then distract her with something else for that to work.
Another one of my favorite techniques is to answer a question with "THANK
YOU."  This only works with certain types of questions (usually a question
about a personality trait or skill).  I say it as if I thought she just made
a statement giving me a compliment.  Usually, out of habit people will say
"YOU'RE WELCOME."  Then, we move on to something else.

I hope some of you can chime in with some things that you do along these
lines, comments or questions because I think this stuff when done properly
really helps with seduction, and maybe if some of you can add in your
ideas or questions the model here can become more refined or I can better
explain what I do and how I do it.  I would urge those of you who are just
learning to do this stuff to proceed gradually with the above and experiment
because there is a fine line that must be walked.  You don't want to seem
really evasive, or like you've got something to hide or be embarrassed about.
You also (usually) don't want to overly frustrate someone or piss them off.
You also want to get to know them better in the process.  A MAJOR FACTOR IN
WITH ME, I'm doing it in a litehearted way, and with a sense of humor, and
creating, building just a little bit of curiosity about me.  I will also
usually turn their questions back on them.  Usually, I get answers for some
reason.  However, often (with the better, sharper, more humorous women)
they'll play some of my answers back on me, and we will laugh.  Usually, once
they answer a question I will answer it.  This is one of the few power things
I do.  It is subtle, but effective IMHO.  I find that playing these games
also makes the interaction more fun.
Several years ago, I told Ross that when I go into a room I usually sort for
who I approach with the following criteria:
1) Who looks like they're having the most fun -- or who does it look like I
can have fun or share some laughs with
2) Who can I learn from
3) Is there anyone here who I might be able to easily do something to make
their life significantly better
4) Who can I make money with or from?
5) Who would I want to spend time with or see/talk with again
6) Who do I want to get to know better
7) Is there anyone that I need to interact with for some purpose
All of these criteria are above seduction usually when I go some place.  I
think the fact that my primary criterias in the interaction are fun and
learning helps.  As opposed to a seduction agenda, I'm primarily interested
in having fun and getting to know who they are as a person.  In the process I
just happen to seduce them.

(A separate comment):
Regarding Mystery's theory about envy.  I think that respect is important,
perhaps it helps if they can appreciate something excellent about you ala The
Tao of Steve.  However, I find it funny that some of my best seductions are
almost the reverse.  I find myself saying things like "In my next life I want
to come back as you!"  or "I want to be you when I grow up."
I've said things like this to a GF who is a Flight Attendant.  She flies to
different cities just to tan, eat in a certain restaurant, go see a concert
or show, or visit friends.  She is also in the Navy reserves and she can stay
at Navy bases for free.  I've also said this to a GF who is a full time
student.  She's earned enough money soon that with her investments she can
herself as she currently lives probably forever.  She spends her day going to
activities sponsored by the college, i.e. golf, kayaking, yoga, salsa.  There
is a part of me that envies these people and I'm real honest about it.  I
tell them they lead the life of Reilly.  Hey, anyone know who this Reilly guy


It is just like the commercial "Just do it", The Scotland gal:
Some of you may remember seeing my post a few days ago requesting
information about how I should proceed with this young lady I have become
interested in from Scotland who is 15 years my younger.  Well... last
Tuesday she kind of left me miffed. Pretty much ran over me in an instant
messenger conversation...saying she was bored, saying that "what kind of
music do you listen to, Dolly Parton"? When I asked her what a particular
name meant from her list of links was...(like I would really be up on the
discotheque scene in Glasgow). Pissed me off basically. I pretty much gave
up on her by mid week, making excuses to myself that it would've never
worked any way and that the cultural and societal differences were too
broad to cross. Later in the week I changed my mind and began reading and
rereading some of the posts from this list since no one had replied
directly to my post. I had my mind made up to give it one last shot, no
holds barred.  I was going to beat her at the game or disappear into the
night a raving madman in her mind. Never to talk to her again. I don't have
the exact conversation saved but basically I came across as wanting to
level with her...that I did not want to pursue an online romance without
the possibility of a meeting in the future. Almost lost her initially from
the shock of me talking in this way and almost made her think I was mad. To
make a long story short, she said that it was not a waste of time, that she
would meet me. We continued to talk that I may in fact go to see her in
Glasgow and that if it didn't work when we met in real life that I would be
a location that I would have other girls to select from since I like girls
from the UK and, in particular, Scotland. Then relayed some of my feelings
that we would have to intensify the relationship and know each other much
better before we could have much of a chance if and when I arrived. Then,
when things had progressed to that point, it crossed my mind to make an that is what I did...out of the clear blue! Told her I had some
things to do and had to "cut". This conversation is the only one I have
been in with her where she used smiling faces or any sort of outward
expression at all. Last thing she said was accompanied by a smiling face
with hearts around it! I think back to an episode of Seinfeld where George
comes up with the idea to do everything the exact opposite of what he had
been doing...if it was white it was black, up was down, left was right, in
was out...this is almost what I did today. I basically did exactly the
opposite of what my feelings and heart would've said in a conversation with
her. I don't know if this will ever lead to a meeting but it sure as heck
taught me a lesson....

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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