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"I was just keeping it warm for you"

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I was just keeping it warm for you
9/16/01 10:33:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time


Matt (Replying to Don:
"Cliff, see if anyone on the list knows about this shit;):

It's Medical Research.  It's not a list of women who want to get laid.


(The following is from private email I sent to Elvira for her comments:
"I had a date last Monday night that ended up just being "nice"
conversation.  I was mad at myself about it and I wrote the girl the following:
"I realize that I had gotten up at 4:00 a.m. to wake up my friend so that
he would make his plane, then I hit the gym at 6:00 a.m., and then I was in
the office from about 8:20 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., on top of having run around
all weekend showing my friend the city (Note to readers - that was
NightLight9), so perhaps I was more tired than I thought and wasn't
thinking clearly when we got together that night.
It all got off on the wrong start when you came in to my apartment and I
accepted to kiss you on the cheek.  Hey, this was not a first date (or a
sterile meeting of two friends, which is what it turned out to be) but
should have been an opportunity to reconnect with an almost lover who
reentered my life to fulfill what had been postponed due to illness.  I
want to apologize for not taking you in my arms and kissing you
passionately when you came into the apartment.  I realize that this was all
my fault and that set the tone for a bland evening."):

Elvira's Comment: I would drop this last have already
apologized......this would be overkill...and it will also make what you
wrote before flow better into the next paragraph.

(Clifford continues: "Now clearly we haven't been intimate for awhile but
my thoughts about you
are essentially the same.  I would not be surprised that after my
lackluster performance on Monday that you have put me in that category of
"friend", and if that is the case then perhaps you can introduce me to
someone like you, attractive, intelligent, and fun to be with.  Otherwise,
I have enough friends.  If, however, we can try and forget about Monday
(it's been a terrible week all around) and pick up where this should be,
you can invite me to visit your new apartment Tuesday evening at 8 p.m."

What do you think?"):
Elvira's Comments:  This letter is refreshing and to the point.  I love
it.  If I were the recipient, you would be at my place on Tuesday at 8 8:05 pm I would be tearing your clothes off.....etc. etc.
etc.  LOL  LOL..but then again that's me...I love directness and honesty
like that.

Seriously, it is so honest.  If for any inconceivable reason she does not
respond positively to you, then she is either plain stupid, has another guy
tucked away somewhere and is feeling guilty, or she is a lesbian!   LOL.

I've got one question....what did you mean when you said you "accepted" to
kiss her on the cheek?

Cliff's Comment: When she came into my apartment, I moved to kiss her
"hello" and she gave me the cheek.  Somehow, I think every guy reading the
comment without this explanation knew what I meant.

Elvira:  Did you go out or did you stay at your place all night?  And the
illness...what happened?...did she get sick?..And how long ago was
that?  I'm asking so that I can fill in the see a clear
picture.....not because I am being nosey.

Cliff's Comment:  We went out and did not return to my place.  The illness
was something she had gotten that she contracted shortly after meeting me
-- this was probably a year ago or so and I slipped out of contact with her
(mainly because of her illness which made it impossible to be intimate, and
we were not really connecting as friends without that part) but ran into
her at a cocktail reception about two weeks ago.

Elvira: When we express ourselves with integrity and honesty, that stems
from a place within us that feels strong and totally self accepting, we
always draw people who will respond to us in attracts if she does not respond to you positively, know that someone
better is being drawn to your wonderful energy and passion....(mmmm,
yummy!  I am almost jealous!)  If what you write in your letter to this
girl is any indication to the type of person you are generally, then you
sound delightful and a heap of fun....don't see any reason for her to say 'no'.

I like how you apologize....most women love that, and if she is feeling
awkward for not being a bit more forward with you, then this will help her
save face..and she may even insist that .."no no wasn't just was me too"...type of thing.  Know what I mean?

It's very flattering to her, too....that's the type of guy I would be if I
was a man....probably because that is the type of woman I am


(Commenting on: "Fusion I'd rather sleep with a woman that admired me
rather than envied me. Likewise, I am attracted to women I admire, not envy."):

This debate is more than semantic ... to admire is strictly positive while
envy is stronger with a slant towards DESIRE. To ADMIRE something doesn't
mean you DESIRE it, too. THAT, to me, is the difference. You certainly want
them to ADMIRE you ... but add in the "I WISH I WAS HIM" and you have
DESIRE. So when you offer her a chance to possibly learn what you know by
hanging with you (the close) she will BITE. If she just thinks, "Good for
him" ... then the close won't necessarily bite.

(Commenting on: "Also, it seems to me that eliciting a negative emotion
such as envy in a woman sooner or later will come back to bite you in the

I don't see how things bite me in the ass after. This is some sort of fear
of the unknown and an attempt to "predict the future".

(Commenting on: "I know that using a negative emotion (like envy) to
attract females
works, and maybe I'm being naive, but isn't it wiser to use positive
emotions (like admiration) in order to attract females?"):

ADMIRE = "Good for you."
ENVY = "Damn I wish I had that."

Which do you think is more valuable to a PUA, opportunistically speaking?

(Commenting on: "Here's a thought that has come into my mind that I wanted
to throw out to
those reading this.  What do you think of the idea of holding a seminar
here in Montreal next summer based on this email list?  My thoughts are
that an array of the guys who have great ideas that you have read about
here would each get up and talk for 1-3 hours and give some of their best
seduction tips.  How it would be done I am not sure -- my first thought is
to follow the intent of these emails and do it purely for fun and to help
out those who appreciate such help; the cost of attending would be based on
covering the expenses and not on making money.  Imagine a seminar where
Ross, Mystery, GameMaster, Major Mark, Steve Piccus, Mark B., Sisonpyh,
Rick, Craig, Dr. Dennis Neder, Arte from New Sex, Oscar Bruce, Maniac High,
David, NightLight9, Peta, Jobet, David Shade, Nathan, Dan Scorpio, and
numerous others who's names escape me for the moment (but who, you may be
surprised to know, are all currently subscribers to these emails) are not
only in attendance to share their ideas and experience with you, but who
are there just for fun.  The other thing which I try to do here which I
would hope will be reflected there would be that we should keep away from
personalities -- no one learns anything from someone attacking someone
else; let's keep this on a real practical, down to earth level where we
focus on where we can benefit from someone else.  Obviously, not everyone
is going to be able to make it but the idea has hit me and has been growing
stronger, getting brighter and more intoxicating as the days go
by...  Comments????"):

I'd be up for it ... I have a lot to contribute. I haven't even gotten to
my SPELLS! The SS/MM debates have taken place in a debate forum ... ASF. We
are on the same page I believe now. Doing a seminar where SS and MM are
taught is all good, I think. Nothing contradicts anything else. Or course,
I believe all the pros would want to be financially compensated for their
expertise and time.

(Commenting on: "Question for you to ask Mystery:  I have become quite good at
drawing chycks and if he were this artist, how would he incorporate the
sketchbook angle in with the stripper rules??"):

I wouldn't use the artist gimmick with strippers. No attention span. You
need to do a lot more than merely SHOW your work ... you have to
DEMONSTRATE it. That means drawing for them right there and then. And you
better not just be GOOD! You have to kick ass! Not in a strip club though.
You will NOT keep the attention. No way.

(Commenting on: "I can only work from photos - so I am unable to draw on
the spot. I
assume that this can replace the Photo Routine of Mystery's??"):

God, no. The photo routine is used to convey specific characteristics of an
alpha male». Pix of the adventurous you, the social you, the center of
attention you, the sexually attractive you, etc. All these things can be
conveyed in 30 seconds if you use the photo routine. Showing drawings do
NONE of this.

(Commenting on: "My Comment  We'll wait to hear from Mystery, but in the
meantime I used to do the drawing thing myself (I have a BFA and my focus
was on drawing).
Contrary to you, one of my strengths was drawing portraits live."):
See, now THAT is a great gimmick. (Sorry to belittle the skillset by
calling it a gimmick but you guys know where I'm coming from.)

(Commenting on: "I am not sure how much I recommend this angle, better I
think to tell them you'd like to draw them and maybe arrange a sitting."):

Yeah, maybe using this angle during the CLOSE to set up a reason to see
each other again would be ok. Or better yet, just bring your sketchbook on
day 2.

(Commenting on: "Problem with this is that it is indirect, impersonal and
anything like that always blows up in my face with (here for example) the
woman looking at me as "the artist", but not as her man."):

Artists are stereotypically POOR.  This is a BIG disadvantage unless you
use provide evidence that you have money AND the skills of an artist.

(Commenting on: "I crash and burn when I am indirect, unless I smell that
the women
is attracted to me then it doesn't really matter what I do.  I think if I was
doing this today, I'd use it as something to do on a date - 'hey, how
about you come over and I will draw you?'"):

I don't think this makes a woman jump up and say, "OH BOY! I can't WAIT!"
If you can draw, you want to DEMONSTRATE it FAST. This means ... have a
notepad with you (not a big one, just the one you use to write a phone #
on) and say, "Here, check this out."  Draw something (something you
practiced and so all the girls will get the same pic) in a mysterious way
... such that she won't know what it is til it's done and then she'll look
at it and say, "Wow you are amazing." Like, draw the image upside down and
then when you turn it around, "Voila". Give her the paper and tell her,
"Remember me."

(Commenting on: "Of course, the prospect of nude modeling hangs in the air."):

This is similar to the NUDE PHOTOGRAPHER thing which I guess I would
prefer. If a girl will get NUDE for you, you might as well pull out your
digital cam and snap away :D

(Commenting on: "This comes untested (I can't draw).  Why not bring some
drawings and look through them while you're there at the club?"):

Horrible. Their attention span is too short. A photo routine could work but
ONLY if the pix are PARTICULARLY interesting ... you jumping out a plane or
something they wish THEY did ... like hanging with famous people (remember
my talk about ENVY?!!).

(Commenting on: "A girl is sure to ask you about them (even if she just
wants to ask to start a convo that ends with you giving her $20 for a lap
dance).  I would work the angle that  "I come to study the human form.  I'm
not interested in a lap dance, but thank you.  I just look so I can learn
and get new ideas for my work."):

This is to EXCUSE your purpose for being there and that is a good point. I
like it. But don't bring a sketchpad to a strip joint. Not cool.  Again,
saying, "Here, check this out" and draw something for them within 45
seconds and then turning it around so they can figure out what it is I
think is useful. In fact, ANYONE can do this even if they can't draw
because you only have to get good at ONE small drawing. Just make sure it's

(Commenting on: "I think the human body is so interesting and
powerful.  Sexual, and at the same time so much more."  Later "That's just
the kind of guy I am.  I can see the skill
that goes into performing.  It takes a real presence to project.  A lot of
inhibited people can't see that, like a lot can't understand my art.""):

Coming off as only an artist, especially in a strip joint, ain't gonna cut
it I believe. You'd get so much farther with the photo routine than the
"Drawing Routine".

(Commenting on: "Don't try to get them to pose or even hint at the
opportunity.  If no one bites
the first time, come back again."):

Come back again?  Ouch.  In a strip club, one and done it. Go in, spend 30
to 45 minutes tops and then leave.

(Commenting on: "It will take practice and possibly a little patience, but
I think this is a pretty good angle."):
What sorta small drawing would be cool to impress the girl with?  A puppy,
or something. You could say, "If you could be any animal, what would you
be?" then say, "check this out" and draw it.


Ross: (Commenting on: "Stephanie (Commenting to Christopher)
A person who needs to be trained to speak on how to get a woman in one's
life likely doesn't really have much to offer to begin with.  If you are
lacking in personality no matter how many lines or techniques you learn,
you are still a bore."):

YOUR philosophy amounts to, "don't" bother trying to improve who you are
and how you reach out to other people. If you are lacking skills, tough
shit...too bad".

My my. So, I guess if someone wants to learn to dance or sing or play
music, they shouldn't bother, because they don't have the natural talent to
begin with?

I've seen the courage and persistence of brave guys learning to acquire
skills that never naturally came their way. I've seen them grow and blossom
into complete humans and people like you say it is not only impossible, but
speaks badly of them if they even try.

I think this attitude is contemptible. AND hypocritical...the next time you
put on make up...the next time you hide a bulge by the way you dress or
accentuate a nice feature in the same way...well, I guess that is wrong
too, isn't it for not NATURALLY showing how you really are?

What it appears to me to be is an ingrained distrust of men and hatred of
men having power, that you'd PREFER men to be clueless.

(Commenting on: "I would much rather date a man who is intelligent and not much
to look at than some pompous asshole who had to be taught how to appear
attractive to me and subtly manipulate me into liking him and sacrificing my
entire future to be with his sorry, no good ass."):

So, in your mind, persuasive ability..the ability to communicate powerfully
and reach out, can ONLY be used in harmful ways.

Stop using the Internet, in that case. And if you don't believe in
manipulating, stop typing and while you are at it, what do you think your
THUMBS are for? MANIPULATION (via opposition, by the way).

Manipulation is what lets us build tools. It's what lets us build
CIVILIZATIONS. The opposable thumb and the thinking mind are each together
what brought us down from the trees.

(Commenting on: "If you really know yourself and are comfortable and
accepting, more
people will be willing to do the same.  Someone like this sounds to me like
someone who is
a miserable person who avoids love and real intimacy at any cost. If you
are not yourself then whoever you end up with will not be in love with you,
but rather the image you project."):

Whenever I hear "be yourself" what I actually here is, "Don't you dare try
to change ME! I'm comfortable with what is familiar!".

Be yourself usually means, stay limited. Don't step over the walls of your
own fears. And if you do it, it makes me feel bad because then I know
***I**** have no excuse.


(Commenting on:  "Tristan  You know' I said, ' one thing we can say for
sure, today, many new friendships will be formed. People will connect in
incredible ways, millions of New Yorkers roaming the streets, thousands of
travelers  will inevitably be drawn towards each other in the face of this
common tragedy.
Sons and daughters will remember to call their parents and  tell them that
they love them, parents will hug their small children and thank God that
they are  safe. Those are the moments that may redeem us yet.')

Tristan, do you write romance novels?  You should!  Dude, you are GOOD.

(Commenting on: "Stephanie (Just because a person (man or woman) does not
feel the need to boast or inform others of their sexual exploits does not
mean they don't have any,
but rather happen to have manners and class.  Whatever happened to men with
good manners and no underlying motives?  Or at least if they have one they
are subtle about it."):

The purpose of this newsletter is for us to share our experiences in order
to learn the structure of successful seductions.

(Commenting on: "A person who needs to be trained to speak on how
to get a woman in one's life likely doesn't really have much to offer to
begin with."):

I respectfully disagree.  Stephanie, you’re missing the forest for the
trees.  Learning to enhance your communication skills is SO
important.  See, evolution is NOT over!  Not only are we learning how to
use verbal and non-verbal communication, but we have a RARE ability.  And
that’s the ability to admit that we don't know everything.  It’s the
ability to question our own behaviors, motives, and beliefs.  We all have
the rare ability to choose useful beliefs, and let go of limiting ones.

(Commenting on: "If you are lacking in personality no matter how many lines or
techniques you learn, you are still a bore.  No matter who you are, if you
are in a long term relationship your true colors will show eventually."):

I agree 100%,  Stephanie, and correct me if am wrong guys, but we ALL know
this to be true, don't we?  No ‘canned’ words will amount to much in life
if they aren't delivered with true sincerity.  If you deliver a
‘connection’ pattern, for example, and have no idea how to feel such
emotions for yourself, you’re going to lose.

Most men just haven't learned how to communicate with women.  It ain't
taught in schools, and for the most part, our parents failed
miserably.  And I'm still waiting for a reply from you (I commented on your
first post about a week ago)!

(Commenting on: "I would much rather date a man who is intelligent and not much
to look at than some pompous asshole who had to be taught how to appear
attractive to me and subtly manipulate me into liking him and sacrificing my
entire future to be with his sorry, no good ass."):

Learning SS doesn't mean you are pompous or an asshole.  Manipulation is
not bad.  Trust me, MY girlfriends LOVE IT.  There is A LOT more to SS and
NLP than you seem to think.  A LOT.

(Commenting on: "As far as who you are, yes I do believe that man has
control over his feelings, interests, morals and goals.  And if you have no
poetry in your heart you won't touch me, but if
you don't even know your own heart how will even you know whether you do or
not?  If you really know yourself and are comfortable and accepting, more
people will be willing to do the same."):

I agree.  Actually, I can't speak for everyone here, but for me, I believe
that everything you need to know is already within yourself.  I just have
trouble finding it sometimes. I misplace everything; keys, wallets, phone
numbers, INFINITE WISDOM….  But this newsletter helps me remember.

(Commenting on: "If you are not yourself then whoever you end up with will
not be in love
with you, but rather the image you project."):

We definitely differ on this one.  If you pretend something well enough, it
will become real.  There’s all this talk about ‘being yourself’, as if you
had an alternative.  People are sometimes turned off by NLP, for example,
because NLP teaches things like how to change a belief in a matter of
moments by doing simple visualization techniques.  Now, I went ahead and
built the belief, “I am a happy person”.  When I was done, I was
transformed, and even the people around me noticed a big difference because
my stress just melted away.  For those of you who know what I look like, I
believe that I look this young because of this belief change I made years
ago.  Does this make me less human?  Does learning to use language patterns
make us less of a person?  Of course not!  These are skills, and they work.

The image you project is very important, because you will tend to become
that person.  Start off by projecting that you are someone who is honest
with themselves, and the rest will probably follow.

Of course, if you pretend that you’re happy, but you really are miserable,
if you pretend to be wealthy, but are broke, if you pretend to be a nice
guy but are really an asshole, chances are you need to take a good look at

(Commenting on: "These guys think it's important to retain all the control
all the time.  I think it's funny and smacks of rigidity, like a little boy
who throws a snit fit over not getting his little ice cream cone or toy or

A lot of you seem to be getting the wrong idea of what I meant by control!

(Commenting on: "There was a study done (Cialdini, if I remember right),
that showed the best way to extinguish an undesirable
behavior was an absolute lack of response."):

Yeah, a dog trainer taught me that, too.  It works.  If the dog jumps up on
you, just turn your head and ignore it.  But there are certain behaviors I
just wouldn't ignore in a woman.  Ignoring doesn't always work.

(Commenting on: "Punishing undesired behaviors often reinforces those
behaviors.  I wouldn't be surprised if every time you go off on some
woman's bullshit some part of her mind is laughing up it's sleeve and
saying "look at how stupid that fucker looks!"  Even if you do it in a low
key way, with maximum possible dignity, she may just indulge that behavior,
just to show herself she has some control over you."):

I agree.  There are better ways to deal with her unacceptable behaviors
besides losing your temper, etc.  Guys, I'm going to try one last time to
reframe your perception of CONTROL.  Just keep reading…

(Commenting on: "All of that goes away when a woman perceives you as a
rare and valuable commodity, and knows you are willing to "next" her.  Then
she knows her act had better come together, or she will end up forgotten in
the trash bin of your history."):

You’re getting warmer, MUCH warmer.

(Commenting on: "I really enjoy being surprised by a woman anticipating
my desires and satisfying them in her own inimitable way. This only happens
with a woman who has enough latitude to show initiative, and for whom
pleasing me is in itself a reward.  That won't happen when put the blinders
on her and crack the whip constantly."):

Some like whips, some don't.  Constantly telling your woman what to do is
definitely wrong and won't get you very far.

This is my view of ‘control’:
I know what I want in life, I intend to get it.  Along the way, I'm sure
that I will find other things that are more worth wanting.  My attitude
with women is simply, “You can't bring me down.  I am here to enjoy life to
its fullest, and baby, if you'd like to join me, then you are welcome
to.  But I have rules, as I am sure you do, and if you break them you are
gone.  Now, I'm going to McDonald’s because that’s where I want to go.  You
are welcome to come with me if you'd like!”

This is being in control, but not controlling.  (Where did I hear that from….?)

(Commenting on: "Robby  Hi, I want to say to all of you out there that I
really want to be as good
as all of you are at seducing women. The thing is I am a student and don't
have enough money to buy the products I should."):

AMEN to that!!!  I just graduated last week and have been in school my
whole life (I'm 25).  Believe me, I know the pains ($$$) of being a
full-time student.  I once walked up to a girl in a bad mood (this was way
before I learned this stuff) and said, “HI THERE.  My name is Steph.  I
live in a very crappy apartment.  I have no job, no money, and no
car.  Would you like to go out sometime?”

(Commenting on: "1. Approach You should always approach with confidence,
directness and power. As if it is something you are comfortable with doing
and thus they will believe you know what you are doing."):

Remember to be playful and have fun.  No fun, no pussy.

(Commenting on: "Be inquisitive, interested, and never argue.  Mirror
everything she does so
she thinks you are like her and you are Mr. Right. Use open body language»."):

Careful.  Be inquisitive, yes, but don't be a drill Sergeant.  A LOT of
guys overdo ‘curiosity and interest’.  I used to be one of them.  I used to
walk up to them and play ‘20 questions’!  It just weirds them out.

And CAREFUL with mirroring.  Bandler says to mirror happily married Nobel
prizewinners who party well and wisely.  Don't go mirroring some depressing
bitch to get her to like you.  Pace to lead.  Mirroring can be dangerous,
you don't wanna become a chameleon, either.  Pace her breathing to start
off with, then change your state and she'll go right with you.  You
shouldn't need to go DOWN to her level.  LEAD her.

(Commenting on: "I don't know how to ask for a date"):

Wait till you are in rapport, try to get her laughing.  Then, hit her with this
“What would I have to do to make YOU WANT to go out with me.”

(Commenting on: "NightLight9   Generally someone's
speech speed indicates the speed at which their brain processes verbal
communication and the speed at which they are comfortable listening to.
Don't forget the pauses though.  Stephane, did she speak quickly in general?"):
I agree 1000%.  People speak at the same rate that they understand.  I have
no idea what was up her ass, because SHE speaks slow-to-medium!  In
retrospect, I thought I was going too quickly.  Who knows.  Perhaps I was
saying something and trying to find the right words.

(Commenting on: "Lately you've been posting a lot of awesome stuff.  Really
good thought provoking things about framing and challenging her views.  This
is one of the diamonds that might easily get lost.  I do this all the time,
but I never realized it.  Just change the subject, subtext and tone of
conversation just like that.  It definitely causes a state change in them. Use
it to your advantage."):

Thanks!  Changing from teasing to sincere really interrupts them, thereby
increasing suggestability (unless you overdo it, of course.  I have to
watch out for the chronic mismatchers on this list!)  I love challenging
her views, whether it gets me laid or not.  These days, 70% of the girls I
walkup to end up losing MY interest.  Too many limiting beliefs and crappy
attitudes out there.  So while I'm there, I might as well install a new
belief or two.  Who knows, this may regain my interest in them.

I learned to do this (changing from funny to sincere) from using hypnosis
on beginners.  For a long time, whenever I hypnotized a ‘beginner’, they
would ALWAYS instantly POP out of trance once they got to a certain
‘depth’.  They went a lot deeeeeeeper than they expected to and it
frightened them, so they instantly pop out, looking like they've just seen
a ghost.  So now I fractionate them, and this usually solves the popping
out problem.  Of course, sometimes I don't bother cause I get a kick out of
watching them pop out with that look of astonishment and fear.

(Commenting on: "Rocker  Do you attract a dominant woman by being
submissive from the beginning, or by being dominant and then "switching
roles" in the bedroom?"):

Good question.  My guess is to switch roles in the bedroom.

(Commenting on: "Pablo  My first LTR was completely screwed up because I
told her I loved her. Instantly the control
shifted and she started to freak out because she was scared of commitment
and she realized that she could manipulate me."):

It is my belief that nobody is truly scared of commitment, only
dissatisfaction.  If you give a woman the power, I think we all agree that
she won't be able to handle it.  It is not her role.  Our role is to make
the decisions, protect her, and then she gets our sperm if she’s been a
good girl.  Anyone care to add anything to this ‘roles’ thing?  I would be
interested in some varied views here, and especially controversial ones!

(Commenting on: "Vinigarr  VINIGARR   so why don't u hook me up with some
of your girls
HB     why no hook up with me ? can't handle me?
VINIGARR   I like u as a friend
HB     damn"):
Nice to see someone field-testing this approach.  It works wonders.  I'm
going to be getting PLENTY of threesomes with this little trick, as I have
just used it on my GF recently who is now begging ME to do a 3some with her
and her little friend.  It uses their fears of abandonment, but not in a
nasty way.  Instead of what most guys would do, “Either we are going to
have a threesome or I'm dumping you”, this pattern isn't mean or nasty at
all.  You’re simply asking her a question.  You’re saying, “Since you don't
want to do X, that’s perfectly OK, sweetie.  I, however, still want to do
X.  So do you have any friends that would be into doing X?”

May I offer you some ‘constructive criticism’?  I think you pushed it a
little too far, though.  She kept saying, “I want you” and you kept saying,
“Hook me up with your friends”.  If you were just EXPERIMENTING, then I
congratulate you.  But if this was a woman I really liked and respected, I
think once or twice would suffice.   So just be careful what you wish
for.  I like women to feel GOOD when they are with me, not insecure.  I
want my girls to feel wanted and such, so long as they appreciate it.

And as for the spanking comment, I agree that women love this.  My friend
Al taught me that in order to keep an HB in line, you should spank her!  He
is about 50 years old, and when he talks about spanking his women, you know
that he means it!  He says not only do they love this, but it let’s them
know on the most basic level that you are in charge.

I have adopted this and use it on my girlfriends and they genuinely love
it.  Wanna date younger girls?  Just spank your wife and she will BECOME
younger.  She will talk younger, and look younger, too.  A good spanking is
the best age-regression tool I know of.  And once you've spanked her good,
you've got an INCREDIBLE anchor set up.  Whenever she ‘steps out of line’,
all you do is raise your hand and she'll relive the spanking.  Great for
when you are in public!  You can turn hard core bitches into giggly little
girls with this.  And don't be afraid of offending them, because they
universally get off on it (unless there’s some trauma or something).

One last thing about spankings.  Just the MENTION of the word spanking
seems to get them giggly and wet.  Do not dismiss this as a ‘cute
idea’.  It’s just too effective to be overlooked!  Remember that post about
finding out what her father is like and then mimicking the father?  Think
about it!

(Commenting on: "Roland   Definitely some good material provided by
Stephane. My question, however, is Stephane's story regarding staring
deliberately at a woman's tits during a pool game. I also read where she
said "good-bye" which
might have been just a flirtatious thing on her part."):

JUST a flirtation?  Of course that’s what it was, and I view that as a good
thing!  She was with her BOYFRIEND, and very clearly did it when he wasn't
looking.  When a girl slaps your ass and winks and talks to you in a sexy
voice, to me this is a green light.

(Commenting on: "It is my understanding that it is not good to give what a
woman wants. I
tend to agree with this, and if an HB is walking around with her cans
hanging out, she probably wants guys to look at them, which in a sense
is giving her the control. One writer on seduction wrote that "
soon as an HB sees that you "notice" her, than you are stuffed and
mounted." That is why I will make it a point to be very nonchalant and
indifferent around a hot looking chick who seems to want attention."):

I agree and I don't.  Yes and no.  You need to give her what she wants ON
YOUR TERMS.  If she has her cans hanging out, I agree that she wants men to
notice!  And I also want to look, so I do.

As for noticing a girl, and being ‘stuffed and mounted’ because you noticed
her, I disagree.  IF, however, all you do is notice her, and turn away when
she looks at you, then you are stuffed and mounted!  Because you are just
being a pussy in that case.  Don't turn off your sexuality just because an
HB walks in the room.

Being indifferent is very hit-and-miss.  I prefer to make my desires
known.  I'm going out to a Toastmasters convention tonight, and I plan to
use the tit stare.  I'll let you all know how it went!

(Commenting on: "Halbster   I find myself saying things like "In my next
life I want
to come back as you!"  or "I want to be you when I grow up.""):

First of all, I'd like to point out that I did not invent the Bratty Little
Sister frame (it was Sisonpyh).  Second of all, I field-tested this
yesterday.  Here’s how it went:

I was sitting in the subway car, and I had my feet up on the seat in front
of me.  This woman comes in and gives me a dirty look, so I take my feet
off the bench, give her a smile and raise my eyebrows twice.  I was
conveying a, ‘so you like bad boys, huh?’ type of body language».

As she sat down, she started giving me shit and saying how people shouldn't
put their feet up on the benches, because it’s rude.

ME: I was just keeping it warm for you, sweetheart.
HER: (surprised at my comment, smiling) Well, I don't mean to be rude, it’s
just that...
ME: (Interrupting) It’s OK, I admire any woman who can stand up for
herself…it’s a very rare and attractive quality.
HER: Are you always like this??
ME: I try
HER: You’re so…(looking for the right words)
ME: You started off giving me shit, and now you’re falling in love with
me.  I just want to warn you, I'm a very bad boy.
HER: HOW do you do it??
ME: Do what?
HER: Does ANYTHING bother you?
ME: Yes
HER: Like what?
ME: YOU bother me (wink)
HER: (laughing) Don't ever change, young man!
ME: So now I'm a ‘young man’?  Does that make you an old BAG (wink) or what?
HER: (laughing) You’re terrible!
ME: Terribly attractive.  It’s a standard compliment, thank you.
HER: (laughing)
ME: I'm a lot older than you think, btw
HER: How old are you?
ME: How RUDE!  How old are you?
HER: I'm 36
ME:  I disagree.  You are not 36.  Your BODY is 36.  I figure I'm about 600
000 years old, give or take a couple thousand…
HER: Ahh, you believe in re-incarnation
ME: It’s not something I believe, it’s something I've always
KNOWN.  There’s a difference.
HER: Really?  But when you come back, you might be a snail or something!
ME: Well, right now, I'm a snake.  But I'm thinking of coming back as YOU.
HER: ME?!  Why me (laughing)?
ME:  There are a few lessons I need to learn from you.
HER: Yeah, like what?
ME: My intuition tells me that you’re very adventurous

Here, I was trying to set her up to sleep with me, but it backfired.  She
responded that she isn't adventurous, and that she annoys a lot of
people.  Why?  Because she is a Jehovah’s Witness!    She started in on me
with her religion so I said, “Lemme ask you a question before I go”  She
said OK.  I asked her, “If you had truly found Heaven on Earth, if you were
truly fulfilled, then you wouldn't harass people with those damn comic
books all day.  Enjoy getting rejected for a living.”

(Commenting on: "Rocky  Last thing she said was accompanied by a smiling
face with hearts around it! I think back to an episode of Seinfeld where
George comes up with the idea to do everything the exact opposite of what
he had been doing...if it was white it was black, up was down, left was
right, in was out...this is almost what I did today. I basically did
exactly the opposite of what my feelings and heart would've said in a
conversation with her. I don't know if this will ever lead to a meeting but
it sure as heck taught me a lesson...The impression I have of you based on
your post, may not be completely accurate, because I don't know you, so
please forgive me for generalizing.  You seem to be taking the whole dating
thing waaaaay too seriously.  “Pissed me off basically. I pretty much gave
up on her by mid week, making excuses to myself that it would've never
worked any way and that the cultural and societal differences were too
broad to cross. Later in the week I changed my mind and began reading and
rereading some of the posts from this list since no one had replied
directly to my post. I had my mind made up to give it one last shot, no
holds barred.  I was going to beat her at the game or disappear into the
night a raving madman in her mind. Never to talk to her again."):

The reason you feel these states around women is because you aren't being
playful enough, if AT ALL.  When a chick throws you a neg, this is the
perfect opportunity to show her what kind of a man you are: PLAYFUL AND
FUN.  And especially with women that are so much younger than you.  You
must ALWAYS have fun in your dealings with women, otherwise you'll get killed.

And the heart thing is NOT necessarily a good sign (“Last thing she said
was accompanied by a smiling face with hearts around it!”).  She could be
testing you, control-wise.  I would call her on it by saying something
‘bad’ such as, “Don't fall in love with me TOO SOON, sweetie, I don't want
to break your heart!”  Remember to keep it playful.

Again, I could be wrong about you, but it’s just the vibes I get from your
post.  How far were about to travel to meet this particular
girl?  Glasgow??  I hope for your sake that you live near Glasgow, or were
at least planning to take a vacation there anyway!  Forgive me for sounding
like a pretentious little prick.

Doing the opposite of what I feel  (Like George Costanza did) is something
I'm doing as well, and especially with the tit staring thing!  It’s what I
did when I learned the word ‘supplication’.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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