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We just get together once in a while for some banging
9/22/01 9:51:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time


I was thinking about our debate on false pretenses the other day and I
realized something very interesting. I'm such a sexual person, that I don't
think it's possible for a woman to spend time with me without thinking about
sex and me and sex with me. That combined with my ability to calibrate
women's responses makes me think that when I invite a girl to do something on
a "false" pretense we are generally sharing the same false pretense. I also
think there is part of my game that very important to my style. That's that
I make the process of a woman getting involved with
me feel like something that "just happened". I let them believe that we
just accidently fell into each other. We just happened to both be at the
bar, we just happened to end up talking over coffee. We just happened to
end out going to get some food, which we then realized we need to cook on my
stove. Then we happened to end up kissing and cuddling. Then my dick
happened to land into her mouth. Oops, we're passionate lovers. The
pretense is never false, because 1) I'm always willing to accept not having
sexual relations 2) it's a natural progression, not a trick. To that end
that's why I thought Dwayne's close (in Montreal, where he got a woman's
email address offering her to pose for his website) was not a false
pretense. He really did
want to take her picture even if she didn't want to sleep with him.
Similarly, I was going to eat dinner if she came over or not and always
enjoy company, the sex for me is the bonus.

(Commenting on "Pablo
At the end of the evening she
turns to me and says 'That was a great evening. I feel really close to
you.'  (bearing in mind she knows absolutely nothing about me except my
name and
telephone number). I smile and move in for a kiss on the cheek. She kisses
me on the lips. She takes a step back and looks deep into my eyes. I smile
again and arrange a second date. Now, she knows absolutely nothing about
me, she has opened herself up to me, she has not stopped calling me, and I'm
pretty sure she's ready for a close.")

This is one of my standard mechanisms for the first meeting. I know all
about these women, and they just assume that if you don't say anything then
we agree. If you really want to be an asshole you can actually not even
listen to what they say, but just move your eyebrows and mirror them. I don't
do this, because it's boring and you lose tons of useful information, but
it's a cool experiment to see how much you get away with without ever
knowing what they are saying.

(Commenting on "So what do you guys think about that? Obviously I got
pretty far. There's
got to be some negative sides to it, and I'm pretty sure you can point them

Two things can happen. 1) sometimes they catch on. I once told a chick
that she could tell I was thinking about her when she heard a specific noise
(that noise was me typing on my keyboard). She knew what I was doing and
thought it was funny ("Are you typing?" I answered "whenever you hear that
you can tell I'm thinking about you"), but she caught on and now I have to
pay attention and tell her stuff about me :-)  BTW, this is actually a very
intelligent woman, before you get any ideas to the contrary. 2) If you do
too much of this, a lot of times you will get resistance right as things get
serious sexually. It's almost like they do a quick reset and realize that
they really don't know anything about you. This is where patterning comes


I would like to give you some recommendations and testimonials for your
fantastic newsletter. You can make amazon links
For those in the U.K., this should work:
to these books, with my highest recommendation.
Leil Lowndes Talking the Winners Way.
I have been telling you guys about this book for years, and for good
reason. If you want women to come to you, which for me is the ultimate goal
of PUA, you must project a powerful and confident image. This book will
show you how.
David Lieberman Get Anyone to Do Anything, and Never Feel Powerless Again.
This book hits on so many powerful alphamale traits and tactics that it is
impossible to pick them up in one read. His points on relationships are
phenomenal and spot on with what I have learned from the best naturals around.
David DeAngelo / Sisonpyh Double Your Dating»
I LOVE and HATE this book. Why do I love it? Because this book has saved me
more time than anything else I have ever read in my LIFE! I am an
experienced PUA, and with that comes an unbelievable amount of guys asking
you for advice on everything! Anyone who has been in this game as long as I
have knows that when you are starting from scratch there is a fuckin'
UNBELIEVABLE amount of knowledge that is REQUIRED to be successful with
women. Everything from what to wear, say and do, how to kiss, hug and fuck,
and when to call, approach and EJECT! It is impossible to explain these
principles to someone in one sitting, and I don't have time to train
someone every day until they get it. I used to feel bad, because I remember
how hard it was for me when I was an AFC, but now I have a solution for
these soon to be womanizers. Now, when someone asks me "How do you do it?"
I tell them to READ THIS FUCKIN' BOOK! Never in my life did I expect to
find such a comprehensive guide to womanizing as "Double Your Dating»". Why
do I HATE this book? David, where were you 4 years ago when I got into this
game? I spent YEARS weeding through ASF, reading bullshit success stories,
and trying to memorize patterns. I had plenty of successes along the way,
but all the while my head was spinning, wondering what was the best system
or the best technique or the best line. The reason I love this book is
because it isn't about learning some new techniques or some new patterns,
it is about learning to be a NATURAL», which is what I have strived for all
along. I also believe that this is the only seduction book on the market
(with the exception of Mystery's upcoming book) which would be of any
benefit to those with experience in this game, because it has helped me
work at a few bugs and fine tune my style to become UNSTOPPABLE! I have yet
to meet David in person, but I have seen his current GF (Surprise!
Surprise!...Small world David!) and she is drop dead gorgeous, so I know
that he practices his preachings.


(Commenting on Clifford "I had a date last Monday night that ended up just
being "nice"
conversation.  I was mad at myself about it and I wrote the girl the following
"I realize that I had gotten up at 4:00 a.m. to wake up my friend so that
he would make his plane, then I hit the gym at 6:00 a.m., and then I was in
the office from about 8:20 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., on top of having run around
all weekend showing my friend the city (Note to readers - that was
NightLight9), so perhaps I was more tired than I thought and wasn't
thinking clearly when we got together that night.
It all got off on the wrong start when you came in to my apartment and I
accepted to kiss you on the cheek.  Hey, this was not a first date (or a
sterile meeting of two friends, which is what it turned out to be) but
should have been an opportunity to reconnect with an almost lover who
reentered my life to fulfill what had been postponed due to illness.  I
want to apologize for not taking you in my arms and kissing you
passionately when you came into the apartment.  I realize that this was all
my fault and that set the tone for a bland evening.
Now clearly we haven't been intimate for awhile but my thoughts about you
are essentially the same.  I would not be surprised that after my
lackluster performance on Monday that you have put me in that category of
"friend", and if that is the case then perhaps you can introduce me to
someone like you, attractive, intelligent, and fun to be with.  Otherwise,
I have enough friends.  If, however, we can try and forget about Monday
(it's been a terrible week all around) and pick up where this should be,
you can invite me to visit your new apartment Tuesday evening at 8 p.m."
What do you think?"):
As far as your date goes, I have a couple of questions.
First do you really like her?
Second does she appear to be a potential girlfriend?
Has she responded to you yet? Are you getting together tonight? I guess my
impressions of what you described below are one of two things, depending on
how you respond to my two questions above. Either you really like her and
are trying very hard to impress her with your interest or you are being
overly analytical about the situation (perhaps more focused on the
techniques and learning) than really getting to know her as a person. If
she gets together with you then she either really likes you or is desperate.
If she does not get together with you, I would have to say that if I spent
an evening with a guy and have an average time and feel he is a decent
enough guy there is a pretty good chance I will go out with him a second
time (not all women would agree and some are very tough on average first
dates, but I am not of the same mind). Your email below would have made me
decide against it. I would think you were reading way too much into it and
if you really wanted to say all of this to me it would have been better
received at the end of the date, rather than the next day when you have had
time to think and write your master piece spending way too much time
thinking about the forgettable date. That is a red flag for scary, clingy,
desperate and weird. You don't want to come across that way. I don't know
how much things differ dating wise there from here, but guys play it much
cooler than that usually and when they don't they are usually freaks. Again
though if you started a really open heart to heart conversation with me
about it I would have thought we were being real and on the level, since
there was no reflection or prep time. What the guys in your newsletter
don't seem to get is that slight manipulation is one thing, but flat out
deception is not right. We all play little games in the matter of love, but
becoming someone you have no ability to be does not work. I am all for
improving ourselves, but we need to also remember to be realistic with our

Cliff's Comment  Two things - one she responded with a rather cold short
email saying that
she couldn't on Tuesday and that she would get back to me.  The other is
that this was far from a
first date, as we had gotten together 3-4 times about a year ago and had
made out fairly significantly.
If not for her getting sick, the deal would have been closed back then.  As
far as my "really" liking her, I
did like her, but she was just not affectionate or as warm that night as
she had been before and that affects how I feel.
I think I made it clear that if she didn't want to be intimate with me,
that I was not going to pursue the relationship -- so I
am not sure how you see this as "scary, clingy, desperate and weird."  I
thought I was "refreshingly honest" with her
with that email, but you never know how another person will see what you see.


My GF said something interesting to me tonight.  She loves reminiscing
about the day I sarged her, and said that there's one thing I did during
that sarge that really won her over, and made it impossible for her to
forget me.

I sarged her at the bookstore, initially, and when I tried to close her,
she told me that she lives with her boyfriend of two years (heh…as if
that's gonna stop me).  I hit her with the 'is he with you in the way you
truly want him to be?' (Thanks RJ) and she hesitated, and said that he
wasn't.  I told her that breaking up marriages wasn't my thing, and as I
wrote down my phone number, I said this

"I know that there are things that you like about your BF and things you
could definitely do without.  And I don't know about YOU, but when it comes
to being in a RELATIONSHIP, I want all of MY desires to be fulfilled.  I
don't want to grow OLD with someone only to RESENT THEM because they
couldn't give me everything that I needed.  AND NEITHER DO YOU.  If your BF
isn't EVERYTHING you've ALWAYS WANTED in a man, then you OWE it to
yourself, and you OWE it to HIM to leave.  And in fact, now that we've
briefly had a chance to connect with each other, I have a feeling that
you're going to remember me.  And every time your boyfriend makes you feel
bad, every time you feel dissatisfied, every time that you feel annoyed by
him, every time that you feel like there's something in life that you're
missing out on, I want you to see an image of ME in your mind.  That's
right.  You're going to see a big, bright image of me pointing and laughing
at you.  Because I laugh at anyone who doesn't realize that you owe it to
yourself to be in a relationship that truly fulfills you."

She ended up calling me 6-8 weeks after I said this to tell me that she
dumped him, moved out, and I am the only person that she can 'truly' talk
to!  I was amazed.

Anyway, I've been seeing her for about 3 months now, and she remembers word
for word what I said to her that day.

She is proving to be a great little girlfriend and is coming along great in
the Steph Training Program.  I tell my girlfriends about the Steph Training
Program, and they think that is so cute.  If you would like to hear more
about the STP (hehe), let me know.  It's no big deal, actually, but it's a
lot of fun, and step 5 is where she has to design her own Training Program
for me.

This brings me to a belief that I would like to reframe that a lot of us
have been taught.  I read a Barbera DeAngelis book that said you should
never try to change your partner, and just accept them as they are.  Now, I
like Barb, respect her work, and would definitely do her!  But this is
wrong, in my opinion.

Why date someone if you can't influence each other?  My GF's learn a lot
from me and I learn from them.  I want them to change me and challenge me
and I do the same for them.  In fact, I try to change everybody I come in
contact with.  If I meet you, I want you to leave better off than you were
before.  Otherwise, why communicate?

(Separate comments by Stephane)
Someone recently sent me an email saying really nice things about my posts
and asking for some advice on state-management.  My advice is nothing new,
but perhaps the words I chose to use will enlighten some of you on this list.

(Commenting on: "I've been practicing my walkups vigorously, in fact did 7
of them fuckers on
Sunday. Although none were successful, I knew the
problem... I was like uh.. uh... couldn't think of
shit for patterns to say... conversations were ok at
the beginning but dried up quickly since I was so
fucking nervous and tired I guess. Question how do you
keep your state when you first start off?"):

What you focus on will control your state.

I'm going to try and keep this advice as unique as possible.  Cause I know
you've heard ALLLL about advice such as 'memorize the patterns better' and
'don't make such a big deal out of it', and 'stop caring so much', and 'see
it as an opportunity for her to show you what she is about', which is my

I know that you know that the way you perceive 'the walkup' or 'sarge' will
result in your feelings about it, and is responsible for your state during
the pickup.

Now the following is how I used to view 'The Pickup' shortly after I
discovered SS.  Perhaps you can relate to this.  I saw it as a three-step

1- The initial approach ("You are so...absolutely breathtaking and I really
wanted to....").
2- The hypnosis (Running a few patterns to create attraction).
3- The Close.

Whenever I thought about a walkup, these three things came together in my
mind as a short movie.  At first, when I would see an HB, I would run this
movie in my head and see myself blowing it at one or all of these three
stages.  My strategy was simple I wanted to run through all the worst-case
scenarios in order to 'prepare' myself, so I would know what to say if she
did this, or if she said that.

I think that this is what 80 to 90% of guys do.  Obviously, this strategy
sucks, cause I was planning to fail.  I was doing WAAAAY too much, way too
soon.  So, I decided to do the opposite.  Makes sense, right?

So THEN, I got to the point where I would spot an HB, and generate my
little internal movie, only now I was generating GOOD pictures.  It wasn't
a war movie, it was a work of art!  I taught myself to see myself walking
over there, flawlessly executing my initial approach, I could see the
delight on her face, the intense eye contact, the soft brush of the get the point.  I thought I was cured!  After all, I felt much
better and was more easily able to walk up to HB's.

But there was something missing.  For some reason, I was still nervous, in
SPITE of the good internal computations.  As an NLPer would say, I had my
submodalities down pat.  I had a positive strategy.

I still don't claim to be 'there' yet, but the following has helped me
tremendously.  I haven't solved the puzzle of maintaining unstoppable
confidence, but I'm CLOSE.

What I've been trying to do (it's so hard to break such ingrained habits!!)
is to simply STAY IN UP TIME.  That's NLP lingo for keeping your awareness
on the outside.  It's hard to do, especially at first, but this is the best
strategy I have found so far.  I know Ross recommends singing cartoon theme
songs in your head before you approach, and it works for pumping yourself
up BEFORE you approach, but WHILE I was sarging, the nervous feelings
always snuck back in.  So here is the simple solution that I found

TRUE FREEDOM is the total lack of concern about yourself, and ONLY concern
about other people.  Re-read that again!

The only way that you can be shy and nervous is to be
SELF-CONSCIOUS.  Instead, what would happen if you suddenly lost the
ability to think about YOU?  If every time you went to make a picture of
yourself internally, your awareness automatically went FFFT to the
OUTSIDE.  Where the more you try to hear your internal dialogue, the more
you become aware of the HB in front of you.  Re-read that again, too!

You've got a beautiful HB in front of you.  How do you stay calm?  Stay
outside and keep 100% of your awareness on her.  I know I know...easier
said than done.

Record something on TV that has a gorgeous HB talking about something that
is important to her.  Now practice JUST listening to her. No thinking about
what you're gonna say next, no thinking about the way your hair is placed,
the way your voice sounds, or what was that pattern, anyway??

As I am doing this and staying completely outside, I'm trying to find out
who she is so I can decide if I want to close her or not.  And if I WANT to
close her (90% of the time I don't), you better believe I'm gonna try!

In this UP TIME state, I am just completely free and flying by the seat of
my pants.  Hopefully, she will like my pants, but I'm not going to think
about THAT until later!

Now, alot of people told me to just stop caring so much.  Somehow, not
caring doesn't appeal to my inner nature.  I've always thought about myself
as a caring person!

But now I get it.  I finally get it.  What they meant was to stop focusing
my attention on ME, and put it strictly on HER.

Anyway, I've been doing this for over a month now and it has helped me
tremendously.  I never would have been able to perform those 'sarges' that
you referenced earlier without my newfound UP TIME strategy.  I'm not fully
there YET  I'm close.  And the patterns?  They just SHOOT right out!  And
they are MY patterns.  I talk about her, and relationships, and things that
feel good.  In this state, I am able to spin patterns on the fly, and I'm
getting really good at being descriptive AND vague enough so that she can
fill in the blanks for herself.  Maybe this is what those well-meaning
people meant when they said BE YOURSELF.


Mark B.:
This is not the most relevant piece on seduction but in the context of our
discussions of suggestion, giving commands and being in control I think it
Last night I bring back to my place one of my black dancer friends for a
little session of crazy banging. After about 45 minutes of non stop action,
I had her on her back with her lower back on a pillow below her, with my
forearms holding her legs up in the air by the back of her knees. I say to
her "You know you have always been able to have a very powerful orgasm in
this position". Literally 4 seconds later she came and squirted about 2
feet across the bed. I thought "this is great, let me see how far I can
take this."  So I said to her "Wow, you can easily find yourself cumming
like that again". Boom, within 3 seconds she came again and once again
squirted about 2 feet across the bed. The reason I saw it was two feet was
that I had to pull out of her because being on her back she twisted her
legs and went into a convulsion as she came making it impossible for me to
stay inside her, hence the two foot squirt, some of which ended up on me.
Then after about 15 seconds she calmed down and I once again said to her
"You can do this again easily" and again within seconds she squirted again.
She did this a total of four times. Now she has had multiple orgasms before
with me but never in such quick succession and with such intensity.
After I took her home and on her way out of the car she was just about to
shut the car door when she opened it again, looked back and said "Mark, I
want to tell you something", I said "What do you want to tell me" She says
"I love you". This is a woman who has never told me she loves me nor do we
date or anything of that nature. We just get together once in a while for
some banging. Interesting eh?

(Separate comments from Mark)
Last night I was talking to my statuesque blonde (SB) on the phone that I
met a few weeks earlier at a bar outside of Toronto. I described my
experience with her and how I picked her up back in "I have to go home and
play" post. Here are some interesting tidbits from our conversation that
lasted 2 1/2 hours.
We were in discussion about how men are afraid to express their desire for
a woman and I say to her
Me: "You know many men are afraid of saying something like 'I would like to
make passionate love to you all night long, go down on you and make you cum
all over yourself"
SB: "Wow, that is amazing Mark"
Later on I said to her:
Me: "The key to a good relationship is where the man can make you feel
really good inside"
SB: "Mark, stop saying that. You have no idea how that makes me feel inside
right now"
Then we were discussing who should make the first move when making love.
Me: "I think it's the man's responsibility to make the first move"
SB: "Me including most of friends like to be sexually dominated by a man
and have him make the move. When a man is sexually dominating that is the
ultimate turn on for me and most of my female friends. It's a huge turn off
for a man that does not take the initiative" Hint, hint, hint.
Then we made plans for next weekend and she says:
SB: "Mark, we talked about a lot of things. When we get together we will
have nothing to talk about"
Me thinking "She probably just wants to fuck since we got most of the
talking out of the way"
I said "Well, there are many things we can do besides talking. we'll figure
it out when we see each other".
She is 34 years old, bleach blonde, firm high and tight breasts (surely
implants), tight ass and legs, she said she works out 4 times per week and
walks a lot, looks like a porn star.
In addition throughout the conversation I purposely often changed topics
and expressed my opinion even though at times it was differing from hers. I
mismatched a lot and interrupted her frequently basically dominating the
topics of the conversation but I let her do most of the talking though. She
did not want to get off the phone and near the end she told me how she
likes to be taken sexually. She also said that she gets approached by many
good looking guys but the minute they open their mouth if nothing
intelligible comes out she is turned off right away. So the key here
appears being able to express yourself somewhat intelligently to women
while holding control of the conversation and holding your own opinions
despite what women may think. The latter point she said makes a man really
attractive to her and most of her girlfriends. It's funny how many times we
supplicate and act agreeable at our peril thinking that being agreeable
makes us more attractive. Nothing could be more erroneous. Heed these
experiences gentlemen, prosper and get laid.


MTL_PUA's thoughts on the NYC situation
Unfortunately, tragedy struck NYC last week. I would like to take this
opportunity to offer my deepest regrets to all that have been touched by
the actions of a few demented people. I would also like to extend an
invitation to all of you who need a change of pace or need to get away from
NYC for a little while. Myself, and the rest of the Montreal crew (I am
sure) would welcome you up here with open arms.

MTL_PUA on the Textbook PU (cont'd):
Now for my part on the Textbook PU; This has been posted to Mystery's
Lounge but I thought some of you might get a kick out of the reading the
follow up here. I am going to insert comments and make this an interactive
story so you all know how the night went simultaneously

(Commenting on NightLight9: "MTL_PUA says "Let's go." I say "Hold on. Let's
see where they settle" (They just got a drink, so if we walk over there now
and we get there right as they turn to leave, our opener is blown, dead
before we even start). They walk to other side of the bar, so MTL and sarge
I way over, but theirs nothing interesting to talk to, so move pretty

This proved to be important. If we would have approached right away, they
would have walked off ASAP.

(Commenting on NightLight9: "MTL_PUA and I are in a great playful and happy
mood. We walk up and I do the 15 minute opener.
NL9 Are you girls really shy or something?
HBs No…
NL9 We've been here almost 15 minutes and you haven't even said hello."):
If you use this opener, wing can do a quick follow-up to the opener. I used
the" Yeah seriously! Not a wink, not a wave or even a hand signal ~LOL~
what's up with you?

(Commenting on NightLight9: "At this point MTL_PUA does a great special
positioning move. When we walked up, we were obviously next to each other,
with me a little to the front. MTL moves himself to the left to engage
HBArt and starts to spin their group of two so we have instant separation.
This is CRUCIAL in all standing position PU's with wing on a 2 set. You
want to isolate them ASAP, and since you are standing, it kind of becomes
natural. It works as the HB PUA PUA HB setting prevent them from talking to
each other immediately, so you become the focus of her attention.

(Commenting on NightLight9: "MTL puts his arm, fist out towards me at about
6 inches higher then my head (expecting me to finish the fist equivalent of
a high 5, by doing the same). I do and as I do it, I say."):

Always works. Stick your fist out and say "Don't leave me hanging on this!"
Let them knock your fist with theirs. It's a sign of acceptance and creates
an immediate bond. I have used this with HB9/10's and it lowers their bitch
shield fairly fast. No one ever does this to hot women. Use it and abuse it.

(Commenting on NightLight9: "Everyone was laughing again and because of MTL
great movement, we're already in natural position to separate. From this
point on, I'm just working with my chick and he with his."):

I took this one step further at this point.
I started convo and ask the basic questions, the actor question, etc... She
says she & her friend are from Toronto, studying Art, bla bla bla. Find out
she loves theatre, so I go into the "loved the Lion King on Broadway"
(everyone loves the Lion King; if they have not seen the play they loved
the movie; especially chycks; they find it cute). This one is great with
art chicks goes like this:

Have you seen the Lion King? NO???? God, you call you self an art
student?~LOL~ It's really awesome. If there is one thing you need to do
before you die  it's to see the Lion King. It's awesome! You go in not
expecting too much out of it but you end up loving what you see
So I ignore her agreement I swear MTL are sharing a brain, because his
chick goes, "lets go upstairs." So I know he just asked her the same thing -)
MTL is obviously rocking too. They head towards the front of the bar, where
the stairs are. Oddly MTL and his HB head to the terrace there, but I take
my chick upstairs as planed. When we get up there, she notices they aren't
there. She isn't freaking out, but I can tell she's not comfortable."):

I had to pull this move. If we got them back together, it would be hard to
get back to them looking at us like DDB (doggy dinner bowl).

(Commenting on NightLight9: "HBB Where did my friend go?
NL9 I don't know, but I'm sure that she's with MTL and he would never leave
me.  "):

Hehe. This was good. I knew you were going to do this. That was weird.
Every time you split 2 chicks up, you will face the question of Where did
my friend go? Where is she? What is she doing? What they are basically
looking for is approval that what they are doing is OK. I just tell her
that she is with NL9 and there is NO WAY that my bro would leave me
stranded here alone with a woman I just met ~LOL~

(Commenting on NightLight9: "I can tell she needs a gf check in, so I say
"lets go find them."
We go down stairs, and I take her right to them. She asks her friend if she
is ok and she definitely is -) So we go back upstairs."):

This was good. Acceptance. She is OK, and seems to be having a good time.
Let me go back to this interesting and uncommon guy (NL9 is quite the
character ~LOL~). If you do NOT let them check in on each other, you will
be labeled as "pushy" and "inconsiderate".  So while NL9 was upstairs, I do
my thing on the terrace downstairs. I run into a girl I used to work with
and we chat for a bit. This chyck blushes at ANYTHING, so I make it seem as
though I am lightly flirting with her. Come back to my artsy chyck and I
pull a bit of "ash magic" on her (little trick I picked up from Phoenix
HB's from 2 weeks ago). She is charmed completely. We look at Montreal, I
ask about how she likes the city, and obviously get a good response. I cube
her. This whole time there is LITTLE KINO as we are sitting facing each
other. I just touch her hand every time I make her laugh (relevant later).
Here I fuck up. NL9 once told me that if you get EC with a chyck for 3
seconds or more after you have been talking to her for awhile, you should
kiss. I got EC but did NOT move in.

(Commenting on NightLight9: "MTL_PUA and his chick appear and MTL_PUA
starts dancing with his chick. I ask mine if she wants to dance too and I
can tell she is nervous about performing in front me. She says "before when
I said I knew the meringue, I was lying" "):
This was totally fucking money. All of the people on the terrace upstairs
are looking at both of us.
Here is what is weird. Her shield (ASD) goes up from one minute to the
next. As I am dancing with her, she tells me that she met some guy the
night before and he was expecting something at the end of the night and he
was pushy but she was only looking to have a good time outside the bedroom.
This was weird 'cuz it caught me off guard.

ME You don't have to worry about that with me. I believe people should
follow their heart in whatever they want to do, and I am following my heart
just dancing with you. Relax. Besides, I don't think you kiss that well,
either :-P
This gets a huge smile out of her, and I am somewhat unbalanced.
HER What makes you think I don't kiss well????
ME (playfully) I told you; you're WAY TOO SHY, and you don't follow your
heart enough. You'd probably be trying to figure out how much pressure you
should apply to my lips ~LOL~
HER I WOULD NOT!!!! I kiss VERY well!
ME Whatever!
I leave it at that, and dance some more, etc... I know she is thinking "Why
did he say I do not kiss well???"

(Commenting on: "It's getting late, we take a few pics and I say lets get
out of here. Everyone agrees and then girls go to the bathroom for a gf
check in. MTL_PUA tells me his chick has a bf, but it's clear she doesn't
like him, just having a bf. The bouncer comes to get us to leave and girls
walk out. They have big smiles, so I know we're in."):

I did not say she had a BF, just that I THINK she has a BF. I did not bring
it up in any way whatsoever. I let them ask me first; ALWAYS. I know she
has something for me, and something was holding her back. My GUESS was the
BF, but I did not want to bring it up until she did.

(Commenting on: "We leave the bar, much kino and start walking. We walk a
while and decide to get a cab. I've reached the point where my tired ness
is preventing me from being very effective. On the cab ride I'm just not on
and because only 3 of us sit in the back seat MTL doesn't have good access
to his chick."):

This is where I find out she has a BF. We are walking in front of NL9 and
his chick, I grab her hand and hold it (I can see her smile/laugh...this is
a direct result from the terrace light kino) and she asks me if I have a
GF. I say no and ask her back. She says she has a BF. She asks how come I
do not have a GF and I just tell her that I have not found that ONE PERSON
THAT MAKES ME FEEL like committing to a relationship. I run a quickie on
her You know what I mean? That ONE PERSON you KNOW you CAN TRUST and have a
She answers NO. I have NOT met that person until.... .
I should have followed up on that. I am certain her next words were going
to be tonight. Immediately, I know I am in. If the BF is not the ideal man,
then I am.

(Commenting on: "We get there and we blow the fuck close because I'm so
tired and I say, "lets go up stairs." which would be fine with 22 year olds
but young girls don't know how to manage this situation. My girl wants to
go, but I can tell she's nervous about her friends BF even though it's
clear she wants to go up too. MTL_PUA's chick says it's up to you, to my
chick, who hesitates a few seconds teetering and says "maybe we better
not". Fuck, blew the close!!! We make out hard core for a few minutes in
the lobby with other people in the room, and MTL is kissing his chick right
there too, but it's clear they are going up without us.
The next morning I wake up like a bolt and all I can think is, "We can only
come up for few minutes." "We can only come up for few minutes."
"We can only come up for few minutes." Live and learn."):

Yes, gentlemen, we blew the close. Got a *close, BUT we did not fuck them.
Why? I KNOW NL9's chick wanted him to come up. HOWEVER, his chick was
thinking "my friend has BF". I was not next to mine in the cab, and by the
time we got to the hotel, she was NOT in that trance mode anymore, with not
enough time to re-engage. This sucked BIG TIME.
The alternative close would have been better as it is not an imposition;
rather, it's an assumption that we will go up for a few minutes and chill
out. This would have had a living chance, at least.

(Commenting on: "I want to thank Clifford, Dwayne, Tristan, Alex and
MTL_PUA for the great time I had in Montreal. Hanging with you guys and
seeing all your different styles, really helped my game. Cliffy, you rock,
but then, you already knew that..."):

It was awesome having you up here. I learned quite a bit from you, and I
even tested out Bridal Tactics last night ~LOL~. It was indeed a good sarge
and we WILL make up for the fuckup. No problem. Otherwise, I am sure there
is plenty of other hotties just waiting to get some.
In retrospect, the PU was very good and I am getting that feeling that when
we see them again, it's a sure thing as long as we do the proper
retrospect/remember Montreal work. The pictures of this escapade are in
Mystery's Lounge under TOM PIX, and NL9 posted them too.
Regardless of the non-close the important thing is that I HAD A BLAST sarging.
And Cliffy, you know you rock the house ~LOL~.

MTL_PUA on a follow-up to last weekend giving you all the 411 on a
follow-up to a successful sarge
Let me make a long story short NL9, Cliffy and myself were at a local bar
on St-Laurent 2 Fridays ago, and we approached a 3 set. While I was working
on my target, Cliff and NL9 were nice enough to jump on the grenade with
the two other ladies, who would have inevitably been CB's. I got the # and
left to go sarge some more.
This girl was extremely fun and a good conversationalist; that's what kept
me there to start off with. She came off as someone who does not play mind
games, and is genuinely nice to people. It's great to meet someone like
that once in awhile.
I saw her again 2 days after and *closed before meeting up with Cliff and
NL9. I was to go to her place on Monday but it did not happen as I got held
up at work. She called me on Tuesday and gave me shit. In light of what had
happened in NYC (I had 2 friends working in the WTC that day; both are OK
now) I was NOT in the mood for BS so I just told her to drop it, and let
her go expecting nothing more out of the situation.
FFWD to the following Saturday:
I saw HB again last night. I met up with her after she called me on Friday
night; she asked me if I was busy on Saturday, and I said that I was.
However, I could meet up with her at 7:30 PM for a drink somewhere
downtown. 7:30 comes and we meet up. Get good convo going, but little kino
because of the seating arrangements. A few interesting things came out of
the initial convo.
1) She kept talking about sex, but stressing that she does not sleep with
men right away. She went to the extreme by saying "Tom, if you think you
are going to sleep with me tonight, I would definitely tell you to forget it."

Cliff's Comment:  While I personally haven't mastered the tactics to
convert this to the close, I have it on very good authority that after a
woman says this to you, this is almost an absolute certainty that you now
have a confirmation that she will sleep with you that night.

MTL_PUA Continues: 2) She told me that she was reluctant to meet with me a
second time because of my age (her 26; me 22)
3) She asked me if I was the type of guy to flirt a lot when I get into a
4) She was totally amazed at what I do for a living and for fun.
Because I am not getting any kino opportunity and the place is starting to
get crowded, we get to another bar, and I tip the guy at the door to get us
onto a couch, where kino will be easy to do.
just on a side note I am actually interested by this girl. I haven't had
someone get me curious about them for a long time now : )
We talk some more, and she hits on a topic that allows me to go through a
modified age regression scenario (my first success with it). I ask her what
she would like to re-do in her life, where she stands now, and where she
expects to be in 5 years. I then tell her to close her eyes, and gently put
my hand on her cheek. I just tell her this:
"Imagine that you wake up at 30 years old, you got to the office where you
have a secretary bring you coffee. You sit down at your desk, and get a
call from a good prospect that informs you that the $2 million deal you
were working on has been approved and they want to move forward with the
advertising campaign (she loves marketing). You get out of the office at
lunch and hop into your Audi (her favorite car) and drive to a trendy
restaurant where you meet a friend. You go back to the office and follow up
with a perfect presentation to the board of directors. You get out of the
office at 4:00 PM and go back to your home, park your car in the
double-driveway and go up the stairs where you are greeted by the love of
your life (what she wants more than anything). And then it hits you like a
ton of bricks: Had you not been surrounded by the right people 5 years ago,
this would not have happened. Had you not followed your heart back then you
would not have this level of happiness. Had you not worked hard then, you
would not be here now. Had you not kissed the right person back then, you
would not be here now. Follow your heart and you will attain all of your
I tell her to open her eyes and she has that "that was incredible!" look on
her face. She proceeds telling me that NO ONE she ever met has brought her
to the level before. Somehow, just this little bit told me that I was in.
She was totally into me now. * closed her (again) and we ended up back at
her place fooling around for a little while, before I had to leave to meet
some friends (friends before women, always!). While I did not hit a home
run this time around, I really did not care. It was one of those deep
realizations that all of this theory is finally getting embedded into my style.
A few realizations:
1) What chicks say and what they do are completely different. I had not
experienced this to this level before. This girl was OBSESSED by letting me
know that nothing would happen. Now I know.
2) It seems that age regression works much better with women that have a
lower level of self-esteem. I have tried this with "happy-go-lucky" girls
without much success, because they have no regrets. This is valuable
information, as this is something you can see right off the bat with women.
All in all this was interesting. I got a call from her today asking me to
re-consider the dinner at her place. We agreed on Tuesday evening. Should
prove for a fun evening.
MTL_PUA on NL9's comments:
I've seen MTL-PUA in action and one thing he does really well is not
apologize. For instance, if he says "What's your name" and she doesn't hear
him and says "What?", he says "Your name... You do have a name, right?"
like she's being the asshole. The funny thing is, he does it with the
slightest smile, and they love it. That's one thing I'm really trying to
incorporate into my game.

I don't feel the need to apologize to women I just meet on the fly. Why do
people gather in crowded bars? Why do women and men go through the trouble
of dressing up, putting on perfume/cologne, and looking their best? So they
can go out and NOT meet interesting people? HELL NO! The underlying
principle I follow is that everyone is up for meeting people, and I set the
tone for letting them let someone interesting into their lives. If they
don't, too bad. Women who are too uptight are just no fun. They like to be
in the spotlight? GREAT! Let's aim that spot RIGHT AT THEM. Let them be the
center of attention for a few minutes; and take it all away afterwards :-)
That's the way it's done. I don't owe people an apology for trying to get
to know them. They owe ME ONE for not letting me into their lives. 'Nuff said!
No name? No problem; I'll call you #1 and you #2 and you #3.
No immediate interest? Just tell them they are BORING. They WILL cheer up;
otherwise, eject as they are NOT worth knowing.

MTL_PUA commenting on Mystery:
(ADMIRE = "Good for you."
ENVY = "Damn I wish I had that.")
Couldn't of have put it better myself. These are wise words. Keep them in
mind EVERY TIME you utter words and it will prove beneficial to your game.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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