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Ross meets David!
10/4/01 8:29:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
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Ross:
My lunch with David...
This past weekend, I was visiting Bro Cliff and Tristan in beautiful
Montreal! Cliff..thanks for being such a genial and awesome host! If you
ever go to Montreal you simply HAVE to go to Schwartz's and get a smoked
meat sandwich!
Anyway, I finally had a chance to have lunch with Cliff and his legendary
friend, David. Here are my impressions:
First of all, David is very bright; he's got a quick mind, processes fast,
and is far from being the macho "get in the kitchen, bitch" that some might
think him to be, based on some of the descriptions of him on this list.
He's in his 50's, is my guess. A stocky, balding guy, with a very strong
presence. He's also a great story teller and VERY funny.
David seems to have a natural talent for setting frames; he always makes
sure that HE is the one setting the frame that HE is the opportunity and
that HER attempts to control the frame are NOT going to work.
What he said to me is that he DOES enjoy being kind and giving to women,
but he lets them understand that HE comes first. He's very honest with
women, doesn't lie, but on the other side of the cover doesn't reveal
everything either and enjoys keeping them stimulated by keeping them guessing.
I asked him at one point about where you draw the balance between staying
strong and in control, and the natural and healthy tendency to WANT to be
kind to someone you care for. That's when he told me his idea about always
making sure you put yourself first, but also his view is that women require
"Benevolent dictators". That is, the sense of strength you radiate frees
them to feel comfortable enough to let go and be as wild, sexual,
subservient or whatever they fantasize about being.
I think part of his approach is to always make sure the woman understands
that she is NOT doing him any "favor" by fucking him, being around him,
etc. etc. etc
One of his phrases that he used over and over is, "I am relentless. You've
got to be relentless" and then he would slap his fist into his palm.
I think what he really means is that you need to be disciplined and
prepared for the frame-stealing and other ploys women will naturally
attempt in their search for strength in a male. I'm sure if I probed a bit
deeper David would admit alot of his success has been from hard work and
the willingness to keep doing what works.
I'm also sure there are some women he'd put off and offend, and I'm equally
sure he wouldn't give a fuck.
David also has a knack for ambiguous language. He does this naturally...as
an example, when he would date younger women, and they'd ask his age, he's
say something like, "Hey..I'm NOT your Daddy, ok? I'm the person you're
really going to like LATER on."
Now...does "later" mean in the next hour or 20 years from now? That
ambiguity gets her thinking and wondering...
I explained that to him and he said, "Exactly!"
So, David DOES use languaging, especially being vague, but I don't think
he's ever sat down and consciously sussed it all out. Most "naturals" don't.
He also believes, with most women, you need to equally at times keep things
simple and don't rely on them being able to figure things out TOO abstractly.
Example: he and I were exchanging ideas on dealing with women who had been
burned before. I told him that often what I will do is use a very powerful
reframe: Hey...if you want to build walls to keep pain away, that WILL
work. You will keep people out and you WILL keep pain away.
But what you haven't realized is that you are also WALLING YOUR LIMITATIONS
IN. And you're letting the people who hurt you most be the architects of
your life, because THEY are the ones who helped build and design those
walls. Now is THAT where you really want to go?
I've found this a powerful and effective reframe.
David's idea is that this is too abstract for alot of women. As he said to
me, "Hey...I said women are smart but I didn't say they are as smart as
you! Keep it simple!"
His idea is to say something like, "Hey...I've been through bad
relationships and pain too. But I'm willing to give you a blank slate. And
I think you should at least be willing to extend the same to me and give me
a blank slate too and let's see what happens."
I think I will actually add this ON to my own reframe! Gives her a good
direction in which to view things!
Other observations: I think guys are misunderstanding what David means when
he says, "Stop caring about what she's thinking."
What he means is make sure YOU are aware of what YOU want and keep THAT the
focus of every communication and interaction. Don't put HER concerns above
your own.
He did NOT mean "Don't listen to what she is saying." He will listen to
what she says as a way of gathering useful information that he can then use
to forward what it is HE wants. He simply doesn't let her set the frame of
what their interaction is going to be about.
Get it? So he's not saying close your ears. He's saying KEEP YOUR INTENT
Anyway, I enjoyed meeting the guy, learned some good things and damn, the
Dim Sum is excellent in Montreal...I am seriously thinking of doing an SS
seminar there next year.
Cliff's Comment: It was a real pleasure having you here and it would be
great to see an SS Seminar in Montreal in 2002! And those reading this
will have a unique opportunity to learn David's original system and ideas
at the seminar that is being held in Montreal, November 16-18, 2001. Cost
is $500 U.S. with a $200 U.S. deposit to hold your place (seating is
limited and a sell out is expected). For additional information, email me.
(Commenting on: "Cramias: Here's a review of the KenXtions tapes
(http://www.kenxtions.com/). I received the tapes about a month ago, and I
am very impressed with them. The system focuses entirely upon walkups and
phone calls. For a beginner, these tapes would be tremendously useful. And
there is plenty of innovative stuff that may benefit those more experienced
as well. For instance, the openers in this system are entirely situational
-- he gives 40 or so openers for different situations you find yourself in
commonly. This really appeals to me, as using situational-type openers
makes it feel less canned, to me, than the typical SS opener."):
I don't know what version of SS you've been studying, but the openers I
teach are all designed to illustrate PRINCIPLES of walkups so you can
create your own, based on those principles.
I can divide this into overlapping categories:
*Making an observation/commenting on ongoing situation
*Being outrageous/using a put-on (fake gay approach as an example)
*A statement of intent made in a clever way with a challenge thrown in, and
done VERY matter of factly
*Sincere compliment mixed with a challenge, "I'm wondering if you're
confident enough to accept a sincere compliment: (then give it)
but it sounds like this KenX has delivered a quality product, so I'll be
looking into getting his tapes myself. Does he do anything with regard to
building your state so you can effectively do all this stuff?
(Commenting on: "He gives a great framework for walkups which I think was
already mentioned on your list. The nice thing about his framework is he
shows you how to transition smoothly from the opener to the convo and from
that to the close, which bridges nicely across the two most awkward moments
in a walkup. The most impressive thing about the system though, is the tape
on closing. This former telemarketer knows his shit when it comes to
closing. He tells you how to distinguish between autopilot objections,
conditional objections and buyer's resistance, and how to "dig" into an
autopilot response and find out her real objection so you can reframe that.
And some of his canned rebuttals are GREAT. One example that I've gotten a
lot of mileage out of lately: (In response to "why don't you give me your
#) "Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I'll give you my number... and you
give me yours... and if I don't hear from you in a week then I'll give you
a call. Is that fair?"):
I like that he is dealing with the auto-pilot stuff.
(Commenting on: "NightLight9: HBB: "No , I need to know because if it's
just sex then I am going out there and if I meet someone else I will go out
with him and the fucking stops then."
Me: "If that is the case then I will now stop the car and you are getting
out right now on the street and you can go to see the movie on your own and
I am done with you."):
Good; this is a good pattern interrupt. She was expecting to continue on a
tirade and now that you have stopped her she doesn't know where to go. She
could drop it or she could discuss it CALMLY with respect for you...but no
more tantruming.
(Commenting on: "HBB: - dumbfounded look on her face "You would not do that
would you?" Me: "You will continue fucking me as long as I want to and
accept the situation for how it is. You have it really good with me. No
else can fuck you like I can so relax and calm down."
By this time she has a stunned look on her face and cannot believe what I
am saying to her. She tries to act tough but each time I stand up to her
and mismatch whatever she says. Eventually she calms down, we park and
start walking to the theatre. Then in the middle of the street I am telling
her how women need to feel dominated by men and how they love that
treatment. She starts to get all upset and starts yelling at me in the
middle of a busy street with people all around us. I yell back but I am
calm inside being fully aware that what I am doing. She says I am making a
scene and then I look around me at all the people there and yell out loud.
Me: "Excuse me everyone look here. I am having a scene here with this
woman." About 10 people start to look and I am killing myself inside of
laughter. She gets all embarrassed and finally calms down for good for the
night. We get to the theatre and she buys the tickets and a latte and see
the movie. After we went back to my place but it was that time of the month
so all we did was just get each other off with our hands. But once again
standing up to their bull works like a charm. She became another soft puppy."):
Keep us posted with follow ups with this woman. Remember, she will STILL go
back and talk to her girlfriend who will re-vivify her fears. Bottom line
emotion she has is FEAR. You can squash how she expresses it by
interrupting her pattern, but that won't resolve her underlying emotion.
That will take something else or you will be moving on.
(Commenting on: "(Separate post by Mark):
Not stating your view makes you look weak. Forcing your view on others by
repeatedly trying to get them to agree and by not backing off is too
onerous and pushes people away. Stating your opinion contrary to what
people think while respecting theirs by not trying to change their view
garners you the most respect. I see this gets the best results because you
come across as manly enough to assert yourself, not some geek, and
confident enough, not some desperate guy, in your view that you do not have
to impose your view on anyone. Winner all around."):
Very true.
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Adam:
(Commenting on: "David Johnson's, "Overall a great weekend, lots of learning
- but still problems closing. I know alot of the problem is fear of
rejection - but
that is something I REALLY need to get past. I need to find the window and
go for it."):
I used to have this problem, too. And to be honest, sometimes it reoccurs.
Especially if I've been sick or locked in the office for several days and
haven't been "Out on the town." Here's how I over-come it: Half-way
through your conversation, remember how PISSED OFF at yourself you're GOING
TO BE if you let another opportunity slip away. And the PAIN YOU WILL FEEL
at letting yourself down. And tell yourself-- at that moment-- "Oh, no!
I'm not going to let ANOTHER opportunity slip by!"
And even is she does refuse your offer (your close)... you'll FEEL A SENSE
OF RELIEF because at least you GAVE IT A SHOT and have the satisfaction of
knowing that YOU'RE POUNCING ON every opportunity.
In sum: ABC. (Always Be Closing).
By the way... I just received Kenny Gordon's "KenXtions" package
(http://www.kenxtions.com/). Watched the video and just listened to the
first disk. -- This product is AWESOME! Definitely one of the best for
discovering the science of the Walk Up. Especially for the price.
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Mark B.:
(Commenting on: "If this is how you treat women, you're only going to
attract low
self-esteemers. How about enjoying each other's company? Making women
feel good, feels good"):
Easy big boy. You did not understand what I said. I was experimenting here,
buddy. I am not like this all the time. I decided to be hardcore for that
night only to see how it works. Obviously it was asshole but I had to see
it's effects. She loves my company and she is not out there looking for
another boyfriend and I seriously doubt you could get her. We have extreme
sexual chemistry that keeps her around. She sometimes calls me in the middle
of the night begging for some good fucking.
(Commenting on: "But there's another word for chronic Mismatcher in NLP:
ASSHOLE. If you think that you need to be an asshole to get laid, you are
dead wrong. Maturity = the ability to state your opinions BALANCED with
the respect for other people's opinions. By that definition, YOU only have
the ability to state your own beliefs, and seem to have need to show
respect for the feelings/opinions of others. Bad Karma for you otherwise."):
Maybe NLPers should get out into the real world rather than theorizing all
day. You have no idea how much women want you to state your own
opinion in spite of theirs. There is nothing asshole about it. You are just
being what women need. The fine line is broken when you begin to put down
the other person's view or begin to convince that theirs is wrong rather
than simply expressing your own. This is asshole and something I do not do.
It's insulting and turns people off. Expressing your own opinions, even
though it's different from hers but leaves their view in tact maintains
respect for both parties. Also Karma is not some secret heavenly account of
your actions that come back to haunt you. Karma is about the same things
happening to you because you have not learned your lessons. Read "Right Use
of Will" and you'll know what I mean.
To cite an example I have been talking on the phone for 5 months to one of
my ex girlfriend's best friends, a HB perfect 10. I tried every fucking sex,
connection, love, bonding, attraction, roller coaster and bullshit pattern
there is and nothing I could say or do would get her to go out with me. She
said she felt guilty about seeing me because I dated her friend. I even tried
"Have you ever found yourself in a position where your guilt began to shrink
and it was replaced by feeling of comfort blah, blah, blah..........." Did
not work.
Nothing I would say worked until I did the following. She was telling me
about her ex boyfriend and his problems. I really did not want to hear about
him so I began expressing my opinion in spite of her. I said to her "It
would be a great idea if we did not speak about your ex anymore because it
does not interest me" rather than "Stop talking about your ex because it
does not interest me". The first is an opinion, the second is a command. She
respected the opinion and stopped. She also talked about her life problems
and how people hurt her in the past. I simply said "It's important for you
to stop talking about people that hurt you and begin to focus on the
positive aspects of life." She thanked me for correcting her. Before I would
tell her "Let's go out and see a movie. Can you be ready for 9:00?" she would
make an excuse as to why she could not i.e. guilt, my past with her friend
etc.. Then I said "It would be a great idea if we finally saw each other in
person and talked some more." To this she said "Great idea, Mark." Later
out of
the blue she said "Mark, I want to see you tomorrow (Friday) we could go for
a walk on the beach (Toronto lakeshore) and then we could do all the things
you talked about (sex)." I did not even have to ask her, she came out on her
own and asked me. I realized that every objection a woman makes to a good
natured, positive, mutually beneficial request is not what they really
oppose but they simply want to know "Are you man enough?" If you are then
guilt, husbands, borefriends, insecurity, uncertainty, hesitation and
everything else disappears better than all SS patterns combined could ever
hope to do.
She is now doing all the asking out and initiating dates and sex. All I do
is express my view, when I disagree with her I tell her and I give her
direction with my opinions. She loves it and as much resistance as she had
before it's now all melted away. No patterns, no matter how carefully
crafted could have changed her mind. She said she likes how I am able to
stand up to her and all other guys either insult her and push her around or
act meek and shy - both turnoffs for her and in general. Finding the right
balance of strength yet respect is the key.
As far as SS is concerned, I would first work on confidence and ability to
have and express your own views and go for what you want. This alone gets
you laid like crazy. If you choose to use patterns, being confident sets the
ground work for the effectiveness of SS. Without it, patterns, no matter how
carefully crafted will only have a minimal impact and could even take you
backwards at that. But confidence, combined with ability to assert yourself
gives SS patterns that rocket fuel to take you to the highest strata of
success with women. Being confident about your views and able to express
them is like being a Corvette with 400 plus horsepower. Adding SS is like
giving you another 50 horses that will get there faster. But if you are a 90
hp Pinto adding another 50 hp boost will blow the engine and you'll go
nowhere.
Now when I go out all I do is work with this "express my opinion mindset"
and women love it. I do not have to ask for numbers or dates as often. They
just seem to happen automatically. "You seem like a great guy. Here is my
number. Call me." No need to say anything more.
(Commenting on: "Dwacon Huh??? That time of the month is not a showstopper
for me. It just adds a little extra flavour... and more lube for the
pumping. I like to use it to paint
myself like a wild Aborigine or something. But that's just my opinion... I
could be wrong."):
Neither for me but it's very messy and I get burn marks on the sides as I am
fairly well endowed and because blood negates the effect of her natural
lubrication. But I'll try war paint next time. Great idea, buddy. Could be
funny as hell.
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Stephane:
(Commenting on: "Franky the Tux how do I break down any
resistance to her exploring her feelings for me while her
borefriend is away?"):
I posted something of a 'boyfriend destroyer' that I used to attract
my current GF, so here it is again. Hope this helps.
I just want to add that the main theme here is "If you limit yourself
to only one person that doesn't satisfy you in every way, you're an
idiot". I've had alot of sucksess with this frame.
"I know that there are things that you like about your BF and things
you could definitely do without. And I don't know about YOU, but when
it comes to being in a RELATIONSHIP, I want all of MY desires to be
fulfilled. I don't want to grow OLD with someone only to RESENT THEM
because they couldn't give me everything that I needed. AND NEITHER
DO YOU. If your BF isn't EVERYTHING you've ALWAYS WANTED in a man,
then you OWE it to yourself, and you OWE it to HIM to leave. And in
fact, now that we've briefly had a chance to connect with each other,
I have a feeling that you're going to remember me. And every time
your boyfriend makes you feel bad, every time you feel dissatisfied,
every time that you feel annoyed by him, every time that you feel
like there's something in life that you're missing out on, I want
you to see an image of ME in your mind. That's right. You're going
to see a big, bright image of me pointing and laughing at you.
Because I laugh at anyone who doesn't realize that you owe it to
yourself to be in a relationship that truly fulfills you."
(Commenting on: "Brighton I walked around a few times and
suddenly found someone worth pursuing. Sitting on the ground, reading a
book on 'Soul Mates'"):
It doesn't get any easier than that!!! If I ever see a girl reading a
book called SoulMates......
(Commenting on: "I was staring right into her eyes, unbelievably focused,
talking - I was embarrassed at how intently she was looking back! And guess
what? I
didn't know what to do. I froze and looked away, and changed the
subject."):
Sucksess can be a scary thing, and I wouldn't worry about it. Next
time you get good DDB like that, CLOSE HER RIGHT AWAY. Then leave.
DO NOT stick around for too long. If you get a good state, you should
CLOSE HER!
(Commenting on: "At this point I had been sitting on a bench, face to face,
while she
sat on the floor. I purposely moved to sit beside
her, telling her my back was sore and needed to lean
against the books. She smiled, but sort of moved
away."):
You should have closed her waaaay before this, but let me add something
here. WHY did you feel the need to EXPLAIN yourself? Just sit down!
NEVER apologize for who you are and how you feel UNLESS you hurt someone
that didn't DESERVE it.
(Commenting on: "Well, she left and I was sitting in the silence of my
own stupidity. I picked myself up and walked out the
store. She called again to me saying 'See you David.'
I left feeling somewhat dejected, thinking that even
in the end I should have gone up and said 'Listen, if
you are not with someone that makes you feel totally
fulfilled, maybe we owe it to ourselves to get
together later.' But I didn't."):
The day that I decided to STOP being so hard on myself is the day that
I stopped acting like a wimp around women. Weird, eh? Lord knows I've
blown quite a few opportunities in the past. I have said and done the
DUMBEST things. But I learned something about being hard on yourself:
DON'T DO IT. Be as nice to YOU as you are to HB's.
In this culture, we have learned something called punishment. It's
where you take a 'bad' behavior and try to associate 'bad' feelings
to the behavior.
We have learned, mostly unconsciously, to punish ourselves.
We do something dumb, then we try to attach bad feelings to it. This
is the big Motivation Strategy, and it DOESN'T WORK.
The ways we punish ourselves (I should write a fuckin' BOOK about this)
vary from cutting yourself, drinking, drugs, etc., BUT the most common
motivation strategy is NEGATIVE SELF-TALK. We actually YELL AND SCREAM
at ourselves!
How many of you have seen American Beauty? This is my all-time favorite
movie and has special meaning for me, personally. Anyway, there's a
scene it in where Annette Benning fails to sell a house and begins
crying hysterically, SLAPPING herself, and screaming at herself.
Now, most people don't go THAT far, but they do the same TYPE of SHIT
inside their own head. And yet we don't even realize just how fucking HARD
we really are on ourselves.
Well, one day I thought long and hard about all this, and decided that
I would change the way I communicated to myself. It was not an overnight
thing, but the results came quickly.
Probably the best thing I have EVER learned came from Richard Bandler.
He encourages his seminar participants to replace your internal dialogue
with the sexiest voice you can find. You can still say the same things
to yourself, but do it in Marilyn Monroe's voice. Stop and do this NOW.
Say to yourself is the sexiest voice, "You stoopid piece of shit!"
Another thing I did (and still do) was to take the sense of urgency
out of my internal dialogue. I never felt so FREE as when I learned
that 'punishing' yourself, being hard on yourself is STUPID.
Paradoxically, the minute I stopped being so hard on myself is the
same time I became comfortable being around women. Now, this is
starting to sound like another sappy self-help book, so let's get
back on topic, shall we?
(Commenting on: "I told her that I thought I had met my soul mate, but let
her get away.
Even as I was saying it, I realized I set myself up
for a fall. I ruined any chance before I even began
because I was talking about a connection that had
NOTHING TO DO WITH HER! I should have 'quoted' it
using a friend that had experienced it instead of me."):
I don't think that's so bad. Women are VERY competitive. While you
were in your head thinking about how you screwed up, SHE was probably
thinking, "Soul Mate, huh? I bet I could get this guy to fuck me...."
(Commenting on: "he was a major bigot, a
coke-head, & had an unchanging black/white narrow myopic
view of the world. If that is the price for being a
alpha PUA, I don't wanna be one."):
Alpha, to me, means that you do the right things for the right reasons
regardless of what others think. It has nothing to do with what this
guy was. It's weird, but some of the best PUA's I've met fell into
this same damn category. It's time for that to change.
(Commenting on: "I know alot of the problem is fear
of rejection - but that is something I REALLY need to
get past. I need to find the window and go for it."):
If you're serious about this, and ever find yourself in Montreal,
drop me an email at ste***0@ho***.com[ ? ] I've been thinking
about getting back into the NLP business, and shyness, etc. is what
I used to specialize in. If I can get over it, anybody can!
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Chuck:
I've been following up on your "Recommended List" and have learned an
incredible amount of good and very useful stuff from the recommendations.
What fun! And what a difference it has made! I especially second your
recommendation for David DeAngelo's "Double Your Dating»" newsletter and
book(http://www.doubleyourdating.com/cl/). His book is just killer and
filled in all the gaps of what really is running behind the scenes with
women. Knowledge is Power and this is Huge
Knowledge.
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Alan:
(Commenting on: "Mark B.:
On the topic of confidence.
...
You feel a sense of confidence about yourself and you
almost lose perception of yourself. You are able to remember
patterns, NLP, dog tricks and know exactly what to do and
say to a woman (I am not trying to do a pattern here).
Well, it's not that the world slows down but that your
perception has speeded up, i.e. your brain is working
faster. How do you get your brain to work faster? The
right amount of constant glucose entering your blood
stream, gentlemen."):
I suspect what Mark is describing is the effect of
heightened levels of dopamine, a neurotransmitter
associated with alertness and arousal.
Proteins tend to boost dopamine, as does caffeine.
Long-term, you can manipulate your neurotransmitter levels
using diet, exercise, and behaviour. For details, see the
book "Peak Performance Living", by Dr Joel Robertson.
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| cliff’s list advertisment section |
| Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
at no extra cost to anyone. NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:
RECOMMENDED:
NOT REVIEWED YET:
|
| cliff’s free plugs section |
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
|
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