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"Although it was dry at times"

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Although it was dry at times
10/9/01 3:36:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time


The David Seminar:
There have been a lot of inquiries about The Seminar and one thing that
keeps being asked about is whether there will be tapes or videos
available.  Eventually there will be both and David is also available for
individual counselling, both on the phone and in person.  One thing I can
say is that you will find a lot of his ideas to be pretty unique.  His
intuition is highly developed and he has a special ability to tune in to
situations as they are described to him like few people I have ever met
before.  You owe it to yourself to meet him and learn about his complete
system to find, meet, attract, close and keep women.

Among the topics David will discuss and present his views on will be:
- Confidence
- How to really get back your ex or to attract that one special girl
- How to pick up strippers
- How to create, manage and keep a "stable" of women simultaneously
- How to have threesomes and multiples
- How to overcome resistance when you are about to close the deal
- How he uses language (he has many unique ideas that you won't learn
through NLP or anywhere else)
- The importance of setting your rules and sticking to them
- How honesty, trust and respect are your golden keys (this is the reframe
to beat all reframes)
and much more.  David will also spend time giving his ideas about how to
solve your individual issues.
This seminar will be held in Montreal on November 16-18, 2001. Cost is $500
U.S. with a $200 U.S. deposit to hold your place (seating is limited and a
sell out is expected). For additional information, email me.


Someone want to check this out:  To become a High Earning "Private Male
visit the website


This new book "The Art Of Seduction»" is really a masterpiece, guys.
I've never seen anything like it, period. Although I personally don't like
using the idea of "seduction", and, as you know, I prefer to cause women to
feel attracted to me by using other techniques, I want to say that this
book is riveting. Although heavy on theory and light on technique, I think
that it offers the would-be-seducer an insightful historical look at the
concept of seduction, and how it has been used through the ages.
So why do I like it so much if I don't like "seduction" per se? Because
hidden in the pages are insightful gems about how humans work, and how men
and women play each other... as well as some truly useful insights into
what causes men and women to feel attracted to each other.
One thing that Greene clearly points out is that "seduction" is a feminine
technique, that it was originally created and used by women, and that men
who are the best "seducers" are able to adopt and impersonate these
feminine aspects, and combine them with their masculine sides to create the
"seduction" effect.
Just like his last book "The 48 Laws Of Power»", this book is very dark. It
reminds me of "The Prince" by Machiavelli, in that it puts forth an
argument for what works, and makes no attempts to judge the concepts
contained within as good or bad, right or wrong.
My advice would be to not let this book sway you to the dark side... I
think that a lot of us like to play with fire when we find it, but how much
better we feel when we do the right thing for the right reasons than when
we focus only on what works in order to get what we want, and without
regard for others.
This book is like reading an organized book of the great seduction stories
of all ages, with commentary.
In any event, it's a must read for those interested in what we discuss here
on Cliff's List.
Read the entire table of contents first, which has excellent summaries of
each chapter... then turn to page 149 and read the purple section first...
I personally think that the book should have started with this section.
Scroll down to the bottom and click the link to Amazon and order it.

(Commenting on Alpha Male»'s question about seducing his LTR's younger
sister. " ... She has had a bad time with men and yet she enjoys sex ..."):

Try integrating the little sister into your relationship.
E.g., maybe you can talk with the younger sister towards her dating/sexual
life and her problems/insecurities. Then you can share with your LTR how
concerned you are about her sister's problems. If she gets into discussing
them with you, you might be able to generously suggest to help in any way
possible and gently steer things towards a triple.


Online Dating» Service to be Avoided
As many of you know, I have become quite the expert on using Online
Services to meet women.
In the past, I have discussed and recommended some.
I still believe AOL is the Best. Yahoo works well for some guys. These
have the advantages of having Instant Messaging systems integrated into
the services. is ok, but its features are a bit outdated. is quite good. It's only real downside compared to AOL is
its lack of a real-time chatting feature ... but you can always do a
transfer to some other IM system if you meet someone interesting.
The reason I am writing THIS email is that given all of my experience,
and also my personal sense of ethics and good business practices, I must
suggest that one service be AVOIDED.
"". This service is buggy and poorly implemented.
The people who run it lack integrity and good business ethics.
And especially if you know women on the system, tell them to get OFF of
it, or at least be VERY CAREFUL when they are logged on.
Here is why.

This service has a (java based) one-on-one chat feature. It seems to be a
good feature. There are just a few problems - it's buggy - and it's NOT
That's right, a man and woman start a 1-on-1 chat session. You think that
you are the only 2 there, typing, reading, what is being communicated in
the chat window. However, what you don't know is that in some cases, a
hidden third party is there ... watching and reading. The 3rd party can
sit back quietly, OR they can type in text that appears to be from of the
2 legitimate participants!
Imagine the problems this might create, as a woman is maybe having a chat
with another woman, maybe sharing Real Names, her phone number, address,
personal info. Imagine where a woman knows a man (or maybe is getting to
know one) and maybe provide personal info (maybe including her name or
phone number) ... now imagine the problems when AN UNKNOWN, UNSEEN AND
I became aware of this problem because on SEVERAL occasions I HAD a 3rd
party join a chat session I was having with a woman. This 3rd party
actually typed in text (which looked like I HAD TYPED IT when I had NOT).
Quite alarming. I wonder too - how many times had this occurred and the
3rd party said NOTHING, and simply read all that was discussed?
I attempted to solve this issue by contacting the site admins, and it was
ignored. They vaguely admitted that they knew of a problem, but did
nothing. I even pointed out the potential risk to their female members.
They did nothing.
I then made a point to go to a sort of "message board" section of the
site, to let other people know of the issues. I was and am honestly
concerned for the women on the site, their safety and security. My post
was removed within a day! When I complained about that - I was kicked
from the site!
I know of a group of women who are on this site who had had problems with
harassment by men, and this is beyond the "normal" levels. One guy was a
liar who had this uncanny ability to "seem to just know a lot about"
woman he met on there - it seemed almost magical (maybe HE was monitoring
the chats?). Another guy has harassed several women, even making THREATS
to them of a personal nature - who knows what personal data HE may have
gained from this "bug"?
Now - is the problem a "bug", is it a result of "hacking" - who knows?
But regardless of what the reason is for this problem, the problem
exists. And the people running the site seem to not care about it, and
won't even allow their members to be made aware of the problem.
So, do what you want. Ultimately the choice is up to you.
However, in good faith I believe I should make at least SOME people aware
of these issues surrounding this site. At times, people have looked to me
for advice, guidance, and input regarding meeting people online. Because
of that honor, or responsibility, I believe I should also make people
aware of issues such as this when I become aware of them.


(Commenting on: "The Trust pattern, Find That Girl pattern, The Solution
pattern and the Discovery Channel pattern. You could tell from her
eyes that we were going somewhere, but how does one get *there*,
there being where there are no clothes involved?  Also, has anyone
ever done this, it's such a dang thrill!"):

You say you ran four patterns.  How far apart were they?  Last night I
was out and I was running patterns in groups of 6.  Because one pattern
by itself and then another one the next day probably won't cut it if
there's 'loyalty to sister' issues going on.

You should also play on the fact that sisters argue and have jealousies
and resentments and all that.  She may bang you just to get back at
her sister.

You need to lay it on thick and take care of any beliefs that she has
surrounding 'doing the sister's BF' topic.
And alot of booze will help too.

But to me the best frame to put around this is gonna be to go for
the 3some and label it as a spiritual experiment or some other
nonsense!  Why not go for the gusto?

Another approach would be to tease them into a 3some by 'accusing'
them of wanting it.  There's always gonna be that certain percentage
of women who respond very well to that approach.

(Separate post by Stephane):  This is the pattern that was being asked about:
(Credit: MTL_PUA) I ask her what she would like to re-do in her life, where
she stands now, and where she expects to be in 5 years. I then tell her to
close her eyes, and gently put my hand on her cheek. I just tell her this:
"Imagine that you wake up at 30 years old, you got to the office where you
have a secretary bring you coffee. You sit down at your desk, and get a
call from a good prospect that informs you that the $2 million deal you
were working on has been approved and they want to move forward with the
advertising campaign (she loves marketing). You get out of the office at
lunch and hop into your Audi (her favorite car) and drive to a trendy
restaurant where you meet a friend. You go back to the office and follow up
with a perfect presentation to the board of directors. You get out of the
office at 4:00 PM and go back to your home, park your car in the
double-driveway and go up the stairs where you are greeted by the love of
your life (what she wants more than anything). And then it hits you like a
ton of bricks: Had you not been surrounded by the right people 5 years ago,
this would not have happened. Had you not followed your heart back then you
would not have this level of happiness. Had you not worked hard then, you
would not be here now. Had you not kissed the right person back then, you
would not be here now. Follow your heart and you will attain all of your


Mark B.:
(Commenting on: "Does anyone have a good strategy/pattern to use in this
very crazy
situation? I am in a ltr (long term relationship) and quite happy. It's
just that
sometimes you need a little variety and I have had my eyes on this HB 8.5
with killer tits and a really phat ass. Trouble is, she is my ltr's younger
sister and I have had some success but not even close to a coke."):

Good going, my man. I am glad that you are not constrained by the generally
accepted rules of misery.

(Commenting on: "Why? Well, 'cuz of the obvious, she knows I am bonking her
sis, so
she is very protective, but at the same time wants her happiness."):

My experience is that these sort of comments from a woman are only a result
of her wanting to know whether you are man enough to strongly assert your
view and make the experience positive for her.

(Commenting on: "I've tried loads of stuff on her. She has had a bad time
with men and yet
she enjoys sex, I just *know* that! Going back to what I tried: The Trust
pattern, Find That Girl pattern, The Solution pattern and the
Discovery Channel pattern."):
I also have been using every type of pattern that I could think of on women
with limited results. What finally got them over the edge was saying
something along the lines of what I wanted and thought was appropriate and
acceptable under the circumstances. Rather than saying ".....back and forth
ride on the roller coaster as you find your attraction building and growing
and feel all hot and wet inside burning with desire..."  I tried the
following "....You know I believe it's perfectly fine for us to engage in
lustful activity with each other and fuck earth other's brains out as we
explore our limits of sexual desire and orgasmic release."  This puts a woman
at ease because you have taken charge of the situation and explore what you
want. Also you are not asking her to do anything, just telling her what you
think and on this basis if she sees your logic and feels your assertiveness
she will give you permission to take things further. If she offers further
resistance you can say "You know, you are young still but I feel our level
of attraction is so great that if we were to make love to each other it
would be one of the best experiences you could ever imagine."  Watch how she
responds. This I believe is more powerful than simple patterns because it's
assertive and she sees that you are making a reference to her and yourself.
Patterns to me make a vague and somewhat unclear connection between you and
her. This enables her to see that you are being assertive and it allows
her to free herself from constraints she may have such as guilt,
uncertainty, fear etc. This will not obviously work all the time but it will
allow her a greater freedom from many self imposed constraints and better
connect that freedom to act with you.

(Commenting on: "You could tell from her eyes that we were going somewhere,
but how does one get *there*, there being where there are no clothes
involved? Also, has
anyone ever done this, it's such a dang thrill!"):

Read my post from the last letter. There I describe how I was able to get my
ex girlfriend's best friend to fuck me after 5 months of resistance by
simply changing slightly how I communicate with her. I believe your
situation is very similar. You can try my tactics for yourself.
This is what I would do. Get her to go out with you for a coffee. "It would
be great if we were able to go for a coffee and talk."  Once you are there
you can say "You know I believe that our attraction for each other is great
and that it would be great if we were to explore that further." If she says
sure then your next stop is the local motel. If she says "You are my sister's
BF/that is cheating/I feel guilty/I want a LTR," you can say "It's perfectly
fine for you to want to sleep with me and go through with it actually. You
can let go of your general concerns. I believe that you and I would greatly
enjoy the experience of fucking each other."  I would never give into her
I would not back down and at the same time I would not ask her to do
anything. The great thing about framing what you want this way is that when
they are in agreement with you they will act upon your opinion and if they
are not they do not feel overly pressured and feel like running off. You can
hold her attention and keep trying. Good luck and keep me posted.

(Commenting on: "This is a perfect opportunity for my "I think close." This is
one I've had awesome luck with. Just say to her. "You know what I think?"
She'll invariably ask. You say, "I think we should meet me for coffee."
what ever close you want, but this is my favorite here in Seattle."):

I don't know why the "I think" works (I think it might be because it
demonstrates your confidence and openness, without supplicating or being
overly aggressive).  I began using the same approach except I say "In my
opinion..." or "I
think that...." Success rate has increased dramatically for me also. I
myself have not been able to really figure out why this works so well. I
suspect though that it works so well because expressing your thoughts is not
explicitly controlling as saying "I want you to" which is. People have a
naturally higher predisposition to oppose what you say you want them to do
because that implies giving up their power. Saying "I think" maintains
their power and frees them to act.

(Commenting on: "I do know that I use it when I feel like I've created
enough attraction
that she's interested, but that I don't think I've done enough to have her
fully mentally committed to the close (meaning the attract phase wasn't
enough to make her want me, but she is intrigued/interested"):

Why not use the "I think....." to get the close? "I think that it would be
great if we could see each other for a coffee. We can make this happen by
exchanging numbers."

(Commenting on: "This is most useful when you need a quick close.
The other day I used a kiss opener on a fine 9. And then immediately went
for the I think # number close because my buddies were leaving...
NL9: "My friends are taking off, so I'm going to have to get going."
HB: "Oh..."
NL9: "You know what I think?"
HB: "No, what?"
NL9: "I think you should give me your number so I can call you and we can do
all the things we're supposed to do before we kissed."
HB: "OK"):
When you want to fuck her just say "I think you should take off your clothes
so that we can engage in some of the most passionate and lustful lovemaking


Here are two questions for the group, I'm really
curious about what you guys think:
1)What does it mean to be a master of seduction; how
would you know if you were a master?
2)What's the difference between a PUA and a seducer?


Dwacon (
Who's Sarging Who?

I was at LensCrafters to get my new glasses when I saw an HB6 trying
different lenses. I figured "what the heck" and point out one of the two
pair and said, "that one is better."
She came over and did kino on me, thanking me profusely for helping. I
grabbed another pair that seemed to suit her and said, "but these also look
good on you."
She stated that that was the style she *used* to wear. So I replied, "that
means I can see your past... I see your present... and I can see into OUR
This continued for a while until we both got our glasses and were ready to
leave. She asked if I had a pen, I didn't... so she pulled a pen from her
purse and gave me her grocery list (her next stop was the supermarket) and
asked for my number.
While I was writing she repeated her name a couple times and said, "Now you
will know who I am when I call you" and before I could get a word in to ask
her number, she winked and exited.
Will be interesting to see where this leads...


NightLight9:  (Commenting on: (Mark B Kiss lyrics): I agree lots of songs
are full of (sexual) NLP. However the guys in KISS and many other rock
bands have social proof out the wazou, a perception of talent, money and a
very sexual presence. Women have always been attracted to these things. To
say the lyrics are the reason is missing the boat I think. No question the
lyrics help, too, though.
NightLight9 in response to: ("Alpha Male»: Has anyone read this new book
that is out, it is called the "Art of Seduction" and is by Robert Greene."):
I have the book on CD and Hardcover (I was a big fan of the 48 Laws of
Power», although it was dry at times). So far I'm about half way through the
1st CD, so my thoughts are pretty limited although I am enjoying it. The
one thing I would point out is that the narrator has some of the best
tonality I've ever heard. It is prototypical.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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