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"If you proceed seductively she will surrender"

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If you proceed seductively she will surrender
10/24/01 7:35:07 AM Eastern Standard Time


Update on The David Seminar:  Below you will find commentary on David's in
person consultation and another from Giri who had a phone consultation.

Now you can pay through Paypal and this allows payments by credit
cards.  Just go to

The seminar will be held November 16-18 here in Montreal and more
information is available by emailing me.  Cost is $500 US with a $200 US
deposit.  Early registrations are greatly encouraged.

David will be elaborating on his system to find, meet, attract, bed, and
keep women.

Among the topics David will discuss and present his views on will be:
- Confidence
- How to really get back your ex or to attract that one special girl
- How to pick up strippers
- How to create, manage and keep a "stable" of women simultaneously
- How to have threesomes and multiples
- How to overcome resistance when you are about to close the deal
- How he uses language (he has many unique ideas that you won't learn
through NLP or anywhere else)
- The importance of setting your rules and sticking to them
- How honesty, trust and respect are your golden keys (this is the reframe
to beat all reframes)
and much more. David will also spend time giving his ideas about how to
solve your individual issues.


Meeting with David was less a matter of learning a
specific technique, but a way of BEING. This guy was a
spontaneous blast! One learns simply what it means to
set forth through the world with your best foot forward and
essentially attract women because of that. Though he
scratches his head and wonders why guys are having so
much trouble in their romantic life, it's really
because he does all of this so subconsciously on auto-pilot.
For fellow SS'ers, you will notice his process language
skills are quite evident, though he never studied
Speed Seduction». However, David's attitude/confidence
is the true missing link for a lot of us that bridges
all seduction study skills and brings everything full
circle. This is the kind of "jump-start" that a lot of
us need to become better in the Romance world. Among
his philosophies, David points out that YOU are the
most important person in the relationship, but
stresses that you do not have to treat women
negatively in order to achieve this. He teaches us not
to be afraid of anything in life.
David is a man who likes life and likes to make people
happy which shows and I think is fundamental to his
success with women. I would highly recommend folks
attend David's seminar next month.


Giri (Commenting on his telephone consultation with David):
Here is what I learned.
David has some simple rules:
Rule#1: Who cares what they say
Rule#2: You are the most important person in the
Rule#1 does not mean that you don't listen to what a
woman has to say. It just means that you do not attach
an inordinate amount of importance to it. I think this
is an especially helpful frame to take during
approaches. Approach her, get her attention, attract
her and close the deal. The seasoned pros don't think
of whether it is rude to disturb her, what will the
spectators think or how will she react. This is your
world and you have to congruently go for what you
want. This is all you have control over and this is
all you should focus your attention on. If you control
the things you can, the other things will just fall
into place. And if they don't, you learn and move on.
Who cares what anybody says!
I think many people have written about the
implications of David's rule #2. I will not go into
detail here - just refer to earlier posts.
David says the that three things that women look for
in a man are:
1)Sense of humor
I think the first one is pretty obvious. Honesty does
not mean voicing aloud all your intimate secrets but
telling them exactly what you want. David does not lie
to women. A part of our telephone conversation
happened while he was driving his wife somewhere.
In the presence of his wife, he openly admitted that
he had slept with over 500 women in his lifetime and had
stopped keeping count after 500. He then went on to
explain that his friends decided to play a cruel trick
on him and introduced him to the 'worst bitch' in the
world. Of course, he ended up marrying her! He said
that his wife scared a lot of people but he was never
scared of her. As he finished saying this, I overheard
his wife saying to him, "Except when you see me in the
morning". Just goes to prove that the guy walk his
As for strength, he says that women expect men to
lead. They hate 'Yes' men who will do anything they
ask them to do. At the beginning of our conversation, I
told David that I was born in India. David said that
women in the eastern cultures are naturally taught to
be subservient to their men and, therefore, there is
little confusion about gender roles. Perhaps, this is
why marriages last so long in the east. What David
said to me next was a real revelation: He said that
there are more women in the west than anywhere else
that are willing to be submissive to a man. Thanks to
the increasing social status of women in western
society, men have begun to become intimidated by
strong, attractive women. A man believes that the only
way he can impress a woman is by kissing her ass.
While on the surface she may profess that this is what
she wants, she secretly desires a man who has the
balls to let her know what he needs from her and will
not supplicate in any form. Such a man is honest
enough to make no secret of his desires. Yet he is
secure enough to know that not every woman will want
him or that, even if every woman wants him, he will
not want every woman. David told me about a guy who
asked him how to seduce this gorgeous HB who had a
shitty attitude and was a real bitch. David's reply
was, "Why would you want to seduce her, she would just
be a pain in the ass". As he put it, "It is not the
face you fuck but the fuck that you have to face."
There is 'good pretty' and 'bad pretty'. You have to
choose what you prefer.
I had an epiphany while David spoke about honesty. The
epiphany was this: In order to be honest with others,
you have to first be honest with yourself! This is a
big paradigm shift for me. It caused me to question
the real reason for wanting to become a better PUA. Am
I really looking for what I want or am I really just
looking to fulfill other people's expectations. This
has caused me to do some soul searching.
I have come to realize that if I just relax and stop
taking myself so seriously, I can go out and have fun.
When I am just having fun, I become more responsive to
what is happening around me. I am not afraid to try
new and outrageous things without really caring about
the outcome or other people's perceptions of me. When
I am in such a state, things just fall into place
effortlessly. I learn and enjoy myself at the same
time. Sounds simple enough, doesn't it? But as David
likes to say, "We just have to get back to the

The most important thing I learned from David is that
you just have to relax and not take yourself so
seriously. This is so simple, and at least for me, yet
incredibly profound. A few years ago I attended a
Bandler seminar on DHE and the gist of his attitude
and his message was the same. If you just learn to
relax, most of your problems simply vanish into thin
I realize that people like David and Bandler manage to
magnetically attract people because they just don't
care about how they are perceived or what others
expect from them. They are secure enough to not need
anybody's validation or approval. Think how refreshing
it is to interact with a person who does not need
anything from you. Most people in our lives usually
need us for some reason or other. Even when they help
us, they may be doing it because they would like us to
think well of them. Very few people have attained the
level of presence that David and Bandler have.
This, of course, does not mean that they don't do nice
things for others. However, when they do anything
nice, it is totally natural and unbelievably sweet.
This is part of their mystique and appeal. As I was
talking to David, he had to cut short the conversation
because he had to attend a friend's wedding. He told
me that his friend was marrying a drop-dead gorgeous
woman who just happened to be an incredible human
being, in other words, everybody's dream woman. He
said that not long ago, this friend was having the
same problems that I am having. In fact, he said that
his problems were worse. He went on to say that some
day soon, whenever I am ready, I too will find my
dream girl as effortlessly as his friend did. What was
so sweet about that was that he had genuinely wished
well for me. He didn't say this so I would like him.
He didn't say this as validation that his system
really works - he does not need that. He already KNOWS
it does. More importantly, even though he was giving
me advice, he appreciates my inherent worth as a human
being and has no doubts about my potential. Now, that
is a true gift!
I think those of us who learn to become better at
seduction sometimes fall into the trap of taking
ourselves too seriously. We focus too much on
technique and outcome. Inevitably, our sense of self
worth becomes tied to our success in picking up women.
We may want to pick up every woman even though there
some from whom we should probably run. If you ever get
stuck in such a rut, you are probably picking up lots
of women but not having too much fun doing it.
If we can just relax and not take ourselves too
seriously, we may find ourselves doing less work. We
may even find ourselves having more fun. The trick is
not to model anyone but to find out for yourself what
you are like when you are at your best. Perhaps that
is the ultimate state that every true PUA should
strive to attain! This was the most important lesson
that I learned from David.


Mark B.:
There is a great section in the Men's Health site with a woman honestly
answering guys questions.
here is the link.
Check out the one about nice guys versus not so nice guys especially.

I am reading "How to Succeed with Women" by Ron Louis and David Copeland.
It's a down to earth no-nonsense realistic view of how to succeed with
women. I can easily relate to
many of their suggestions. What makes the book great in my opinion is the
fact that it seems to be
based on real life experience and what really works, no some idealistic
view of how things should work. I easily integrates word patterns,
touching, kissing, mental framework and others all into one workable
theory. A great read.
Check them out at
and download their free seduction guide. You also get a newsletter.

Regarding the "How to Succeed with Women" book:
162 pages into the book I see the guys are geniuses.
They recommend going to hotel bars where one can find lonely
business women looking for company that night - perfect for one
night stands. I'll try this one out this weekend as we have tons
of hotels with bars in Toronto.
They also suggest complementing a woman within a short time
of meeting her to show your romantic interest - something that
has always worked for me no matter how much others suggest
that it's wrong to do.
They have a slew of other tips and recommendations and just by reading
the first 162 pages one could have great success with that alone.


(Stephanie wrinkled her brow and scribed:)
> I would say that from my personal experience men are much more
> hung up on what a woman looks like and women are more hung up on
> what they themselves look like. I know plenty of women who date
> or are married to less than attractive men. You see it all the
> time, especially in these movies where the old guy gets the young
> hot thing.

Not all the time. The rest of the time the silly bitches call me
a pervert. Which I am, but age difference has nothing to do with
> Get real! Women are more willing to look beyond looks (not always,
> but more so) and get to know the man.

You're right, looks aren't everything to a woman. They tend to
have other autopilot crap to get hung up on, usually centered
around money and power.
But then again, in Iowa there is a certain type of woman who
will rise above that.
> How about asking your readers if they would date a less than
> appealing woman with a terrific personality rather than a
> gorgeous model that bored them to tears?

I have a minimum baseline. A woman has to be physically healthy.
Doesn't have to be Anna Kournikova, but dewlaps (that's when the
belly fat folds over just below the navel) make me gag.
Seriously, your question seems to presuppose that a woman with
a terrific personality is less than appealing, and that models
are all vapid. I don't think it works that way. Why would you
want to believe that?
I personally look at the total package. There are a lot of good
looking women in the world. None of them are perfect. So I look
for the ones that turn me on, and then I look further to see if
I enjoy being with them. If I do, they're in luck. If I don't
there's lots more to meet.
By that way, this is a classic way of dealing with the issue I
learned from Ross. Not one of those things you learn from your
Dad, or even your peers. Thanks, Ross.
There's something about a woman who is happy on the inside that
transforms her appearance on the outside. She moves differently,
her facial expressions are more inviting, and as she gets older,
habitual facial expressions cast a distinctive wrinkle pattern
on her face. You can tell a woman who's spent 45 years laughing
and smiling from a 45 year old woman who's been snarling all her
life, and I don't have to tell you which looks better to me.
Since I know that eventually I'm going to hook up with a woman
permanently,  I choose happy personalities over sullen persona-
lities, not to mention that short term pleasure is greatly enhanced.
> Women are so busy judging what other women are wearing and
> doing with their hair. You think men stare at women? Men will
> walk into a room where a party is going on and check out the
> women in there. I think women (on the average, of course) will
> walk into the same room and also check out the women, prior
> to checking out the men. Sizing up the competition, so to speak.

LOL, we know. We find this nearly universal trait in women useful
in our seductioneering.
> I have this girlfriend who is tall, big boned and can stand to
> lose about fifty pounds or so. She is average looking, but being
> overweight does not help her out.

She'd fit right in here in Iowa. This is the spiritual homeland
of fat women. You know what they say about Iowa women, don't you?
In the winter they keep you warm, and in the summer they give you
Must be the karma from raising all those pigs for slaughter.
> I guess we are our own worst enemy.

No. Our worst enemies are the people who feed us fucked up
things to believe while telling us it's for our own good. I'd
have them all summarily executed, except that would pretty much
be the end of the species.


Brother Marcus:
[responding to Maxin:
> >What's the Frame that allows having more than one woman in his life that
> >lets them all
> >be at peace with it and even like it? My experience has been that women
> >tend to want
> >exclusivity even more than longevity.]

Marcus' frame for polyamory/open relationships:
Commitment: the determination to attain the best possible outcome for
everyone involved, BEYOND any limiting beliefs.
You're right. A woman often wants all your attention. But she would be
mistaken. If she really stops and thinks about it, she DOESN'T want all your
attention. If she got all of your attention, you wouldn't do the work
required to keep your own life together, you wouldn't learn anything new to
bring into your relationship, and you would eventually become exactly the
opposite of the fascinating man she got with in the first place. This is
true EVEN if you two are shacked up together, which I would never do. I
should emphasize that I have had the foresight NEVER to cohabitate with
someone, so I don't know much about that particular situation. Thank Gawd.
So, if she wants you to be "faithful" to her, she has a limiting belief. It
limits the potential for you to bring new understandings and experience to
her. She is basically saying that the things you two do together make it
appropriate to give her dominion over everything ELSE that you do. And
that's just imperious and domineering at its core. Whether it looks
reasonable depends on your sense of possibility. If she doesn't think she's
good enough to keep you coming back, then she's not acting according to the
best possible outcome. Therefore monogamy is a lack of commitment.
Now, she needn't know that you've been with someone else to benefit from you
having had that experience. My primary GF and I have a don't ask, don't tell
policy. I don't know whether she knows about the other people I see from
time to time, though I kind of assume she does. I don't know whether she has
enjoyed anyone else, and it shouldn't matter whether I know. The point of
our relationship is what we enjoy together. What we enjoy with others is
completely immaterial. Allowing the world outside of yourself to affect your
emotions is not the highest outcome. Therefore jealousy is a lack of
So! The more she wants commitment, the more she gets to let go of limiting
beliefs like monogamy and jealousy. Sounds like a win-win to me. Anyone who
can't be at peace with that and like it to boot is trapped in some serious
limiting beliefs. If she wants exclusivity above all else, then she isn't
interested in you as a person. She just wants an accessory. It's not up to
me to learn her lesson for her, and I don't feel like being someone's Ken
For the other women, the frame changes. It's actually a lot easier than I
thought it would be. Somehow the expectation of getting your exclusive
attention is diminished when they know you're already with someone. I think
it was Rick who shared with us that letting all the women in your life have
equal access is a prescription for disaster. Civil war always breaks out
eventually. If it's clear that there is a primary, then everyone has a
framework within which to achieve the best possible outcome. There is a
between limitations and constraints.
I'm always fine-tuning the way I present this whole thing, but the last
successful way I framed it was that it's not as if there's a real
relationship in the middle with little flings surrounding it. Rather, they
are all real relationships, but some have a different sense of time from
others. My GF is primary because she has shared with me almost three years
of exploration and growth, with good prospects for another three to come.

[now responding to Stephanie: Women are more willing to look beyond looks
(not always, but more so) and get to know the man. How about asking your
readers if they would date a less than appealing woman with a terrific
personality rather than a
gorgeous model that bored them to tears?]

Wow. Generalize away, sweetheart. You know, men are not only different from
women. They are also different from other men.


I'm wondering, how do some of you guys handle flakiness from chicks?
Lately, practically every girl that has agreed to meet me for a coffee date
has ended up not showing up. What's up with that?
It should be noted that all these girls are right around the ages of 19-21
so I assume that flakiness should be expected. I'm curious about how much
the flakiness has to do with me and how much it has to do with the fact
that young girls are generally pretty flaky. If anyone has experience in
dealing with younger chicks, your help would be appreciated.
Also, does anyone have any good responses for when chicks say, "I don't
give out my #." I've heard that one a few times in the past couple of weeks
and haven't been able to overcome it yet. Thanks.

Here's an good opener that me and a couple of friends have been using
lately (mostly on the
street) will good results:
"Hi, can I ask you a question, if you were a color what would color would
you be?"
"Cool, how to it feel to be (color)?"
She'll respond with something and it's usually easy get her talking about
her interests/aspirations/whatever from there. As a stand-by, you can also
say, "wow, I'll bet you're a pretty imaginative person..." then you can go
into also sorts of SS/PUA speak like the cube, rose demo, etc.
I found the above routine to be a good way to screen for chicks that want
to play. If they go along with it, it's a good chance that they have a
sense of humor, imagination, and are probably a someone worth talking to.


This is in response to the mail you sent last .. and about MTL_PUA's
idea.  Well, it worked and like a charm.  I sent it to 5/6 people and got
it back from 4 within two days ....
> Here is a good little gimmick for flaky bitchez. If I
> feel that some woman are
> disconnecting from me, or not calling me back, I just
> run a new edition of
> MTL_PUA 's Life List (hehehehe). This is a bogus email
> that I send out to
> chicks
> under the impression that it is a mailing list to all
> of my friends. Intro
> like this:
> ---------------
> Subject: MTL_PUA 's Life List
 (without knowing that it's geared especially towards
> her), and WILL reply
> as long as the email makes sense. It will peak her
> interest at least.
> It has worked like a charm in the past, and it always
> has them emailing me
> back and asking when I will be seeing them again, and
> other bullshit. Tip
> the scale in your favor.


The Asiatic:
I got this email today:
> Hi! (asiatic),
> I just think I should explain why I didn't call you back very actively.
> Besides, this message would relieve my little guilty of not respond to
> a good guy's kiss.

(She means when I tried to kiss her she said "too early!")
> In honest, you are the nicest guy that I have ever met in New York. You
> are very intelligent, gifted, and warm. However, I think you are too
> good for me.
> Therefore, I don't want to go through the difficult process just to
> prove that my six sense is right. It would be much better if we met at
> school, I would have a very good excuse to get to know you naturally
> and wouldn't get hurt. Most of strangers talked to me on the street are
> for my apperance. However, I am just a very normal Taiwanese girl. In
> fact, I am not attractive at all. I am sufferring folliculitis on my
> thighs and bottom. And I am receiveing treatment at --- health center.
> I don't think any guy would think it's an attractive thing to date a
> girl like this. Since I know you value honesty, I think it's better to
> tell you the truth. Therefore, if we accdentally meet again on this
> crowded city, I won't feel so embarrased.
> I appreciate your patience in spending time to know me. I could really
> know myself through your help. Personally,I really like you. But for
> your happiness, you should find someone better than me.
> It was nice to talk to you!
> You are a real master of communication.

I know that when a woman falls in love she will instinctively say "go away"
to protect herself.
If you proceed seductively she will surrender.
Is that what's happening here?
Regardless, she just called me "to return my call" from a few days ago...
She asked if I got the email.  I said yes and I'm surprised.
You didn't strike me as the kind of person who doesn't feel that she deserves
the best.
Some people feel they don't deserve the best in life, but I thought you would
be the kind of person that feels that (soften tonality)YOU DESERVE TO HEAR
and not perfect but...).  She said "maybe I'm not ready" and I went into
Ross's not ready pattern and she said "Wow, I never heard anything like
that before."  She said "but I don't wanna waste your time" and I started
with "you don't think much of yourself do you?"
but I caught myself and stopped in mid-sentence (thanks TOM).
Instead, I went into Ross's I walk through the world as an adult...pattern.
I said I don't have time for a serious relationship, I can't promise anything
but I keep an open mind and if you can KEEP AN OPEN MIND then we can hang
out and just see what happens naturally..
(she was really happy with that)
I said I like being with you and I know you like being with me so ...
why should we stop all these good times now when we have so many more
wonderful times to come?
("You're right" she says)
PARK, cause in six months it'll be summer, and we can have a picnic, and
imagine us
laughing and having a wonderful time and looking back on this moment, talking
on the phone as having been the start of all these wonderful times together,
(she says "Why do you wanna spend time with me? and I said "I don't wanna be
your therapist or your baby sitter."
She said "Yes, people say I'm a baby."
"You're an adult and up until this email I enjoyed being with you and
hearing your voice, seeing your smile (said in my softest tonality), etc."
"I dunno when I can see you" she said, and I said "I'm busy, too and I'm glad
you're busy cause I don't like when someone doesn't have a life.  So we
understand each other this way, you know, no pressures, no expectations, ok?"
Now I wanted to read this poem to you.
"Really, oh wow" she said.
TA:  You wanna hear this right?
she: "Yes, I wanna listen with my ear"
TA: huh?
she: "and my heart"

(I read caterpillar/moth which I thought was appropriate
and she loved it.  Then I said I will tell you the word when I see you,
so what's your schedule like?  Remember she said she doesn't know when she can
see me?
Well, we set it up for Thursday.  I said I'm going shopping and I want you
to come with me... so think about the caterpillar and we'll talk about it
when I see you...)
Now I think she just needed a little validation. She called to see if I
would "save her" right?
Ok, I didn't slap her as hard as I could have.  It was a gentle slap,
but now I know I have to slap harder next time and I will!
She is a real goody-goody girl and she told me previously that her ex-bf's
used to tease her...
and she seems to like that.  When we shop, I will tease her big time calling
her "baby," etc.  What do you boys think of all this?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

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Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

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Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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