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"Don’t you have any decency or chivalry?"

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Don’t you have any decency or chivalry?
10/31/01 6:34:02 PM Eastern Standard Time


Remember to remember to attend The David Seminar:
We are planning this out and it should be a real blast.  If you are
thinking of coming, make your reservation early!

Now you can pay through Paypal and this allows payments by credit
cards.  Just go to (the email address you need to use is
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ]).

The seminar will be held November 16-18 here in Montreal and more
information is available by emailing me.  Cost is $500 US with a $200 US
deposit.  Early registrations are greatly encouraged.

David will be elaborating on his system to find, meet, attract, bed, and
keep women.

Among the topics David will discuss and present his views on will be:
- Confidence
- How to really get back your ex or to attract that one special girl
- How to pick up strippers
- How to create, manage and keep a "stable" of women simultaneously
- How to have threesomes and multiples
- How to overcome resistance when you are about to close the deal
- How he uses language (he has many unique ideas that you won't learn
through NLP or anywhere else)
- The importance of setting your rules and sticking to them
- How honesty, trust and respect are your golden keys (this is the reframe
to beat all reframes)
and much more. David will also spend time giving his ideas about how to
solve your individual issues.


NightLight9 comments: I was listening to the radio this morning and they
were asking people when a relationship started (i.e. how do you
know/classify you're in a relationship). I swear most of the women who
called sounded like they were doing Ross Jeffries sound bites. One of them
said "I just felt an instant connection." Another one said "we were writing
a book and was giving the perfect marriage proposal for the character in the
book" (quotes anyone?). Of other note: One chick was a stripper and said
she said she had love at first sight with her BF who was the manager of the
club. She auditioned for him. During the audition he said to his co-worker
"I'm going to marry that woman."  Then he walked up to her after the
audition and said, "You know you are going to be my woman now, right?"
Obviously these two had a "chemical" response to each other. Now, when I'm
really on, my goal and reality as a seducer is to have a chemical response
with every woman I meat.

(Commenting on: "Mark B: There is a great section in the Men's
Health site with a woman honestly answering guys questions. here is the
Check out the one about nice guys versus not so nice guys especially."):
Definitely check out this link! There is some crap to wade through, but
even most of that is not too AFC. Some of the stuff like this is golden:
Q: I was just skimming through the questions and I came across one in which
you mention the "sweet spot" of a woman's back. "-and he definitely won't
put his hands on that sweet spot just above her hips when he kisses her good
night." Your words. I'm curious, where exactly is this spot?
A: Glad you asked. It's the area halfway between her armpit and hip on the
sides of her torso. While you're kissing her, put your hands on her waist,
then slide them up to this part of her body, just barely brushing the side
of her breasts as you do it. You'll be turning her on without really making
a move, which is perfect for a first or second date situation. There's
something about that almost-touch that makes us kind of crazy.

(Commenting on: "Mark B: They also suggest complementing a woman
within a short time of meeting her to show your romantic interest -
something that
has always worked for me no matter how much others suggest
that it's wrong to do."):

I think that compliments when a women feels like you are on the same or
higher level than her, or when she's already attracted to you are great
(particularly if you know which ones she will respond to and how to deliver
them). I think the problem is most guys seem like they are trying when they
compliment. If I were teaching you to play basketball, I would tell you to
square up for every shot. If you were to ask Michael Jordan if you should
square up for every shot, he'd probably say yes. If you watch him play,
it's clear he doesn't need to square up for every shot. If Kobe Bryant asks
MJ if he should square up for every shot, I bet his answer would differ a
lot from what he told you.

(Commenting on:
>I'm wondering, how do some of you guys handle flakiness from chicks?
>Lately, practically every girl that has agreed to meet me for a coffee date
>has ended up not showing up. What's up with that?
>It should be noted that all these girls are right around the ages of 19-21
>so I assume that flakiness should be expected. I'm curious about how much
>the flakiness has to do with me and how much it has to do with the fact
>that young girls are generally pretty flaky. If anyone has experience in
>dealing with younger chicks, your help would be appreciated.):

I think you need to address the bigger issue of getting them to want you to
call them. It's easy to get a phone number. If you think you are PUA
because you get lots of phone numbers, you are sadly fooling yourself. One
phone number of a girl that really wants me to call, and who I can continue
the seduction on that call is worth ten that don't want to see me, but gave
me their number for one reason or another.
There are lots of reasons a girl might give you her real number (thinks you're
harmless, is too nice to say no, figures you won't call, is never home...)
To carry this further, you could be blowing it on the call because you don't
have your state right. I consider from Intro to first planned meeting of
first kiss to be attract phase. A number close is really only an opportunity
for an extension of the attract phase.
If at least 30% of the women don't seem genuinely excited that you called,
you bet your attract phase is the problem.

(Commenting on:
>Also, does anyone have any good responses for when chicks say, "I don't
>give out my #." I've heard that one a few times in the past couple of weeks
>and haven't been able to overcome it yet. Thanks.):

Once again, if you get this (a lot) it is a good indication that your
attract phase wasn't as strong as it should have been. That said there are
lots of answers to this one. Search ASF archives and you'll find lots of
counters to overcome this well known objection.

(Commenting on: "Mark B.:
>I also wanted to know what is the real motivation for any of you to want to
>become great PUA's. Other than having sexual gratification what motivates
>you to have the ability to have and get many women. A friend of mine who
>is on the list suggested that many of the things we post are hateful to
>women. I would disagree but I am curious what are the deep seated
>motivations for us being so heavily involved in wanting to be highly
>successful with the opposite sex?):

The quest to become a great PUA is inherently a little 'unhealthy' (as are
all quests that lead to being great at something), that's why completely
'healthy' people are so boring, they never amount to anything :-)
For me there are a few things.
1) the acceptance and value by women of me is important to me. This is
something that I see as negative and is changing over time.
2) It is a challenge.
3) I want the respect of other men.
4) I want to settle down and marry someday if I meet the right woman. When
I meet her I want to be in the best possible position to get her.
5) I really like sex and BJ's.


I'm studying for a Drama Appreciation class and I came across this quote.
It is a piece of a LECTURE made by Tyrone Guthrie in 1952. It's a lovely
metaphor, reframe through contrasts, and I can just picture this dude
standing in front of his audience using dick points, tonality shifts, and
all that. I found it too amusing not to transcribe. I know someone on
this list will pick it up and actually use it anyway. Remember this is
a direct quote!
"A GOOD conductor is a man with a fine technique of the stick. He has a
clear and expressive beat, and is an interesting chap to watch. He can
bring one section in with a fine gesture and blot another out. He knows
his score, but it is all interesting showmanship.
But the GREAT conductor does not require any of those things. He can have
a terrible beat and look like nothing on earth, but if he is a great
conductor every man in the orchestra will give, under his baton, not only
a better performance than he would under another conductor, but a better
performance than he new he could give. It's not gotten out of them by
instruction; it is a process of psychic evocation."


Here is the first post from a student of my workshop ... there will be more
on asf but I'm sure many would like to know how it went. just so you know,
it kicked ass!  I will definitely do more of them ... they will be 3 days
long and not 4 and I'll charge $600 ($100 more than before) but will do 6
hours a day rather than 5.
From: christopher powles (cpo***0@ho***.com[ ? ])
Subject: Re: Mystery's seminar in LA
Date: 2001-10-23
Yes, it went great. I have so much to say, and Í'm out of the country
right now.  I have a few quick thoughts to share if you are READY for it,
it is invaluable. In other words, if you have absolutely no game and cannot
carry on a conversation with a woman, it
may not be worth it. If, however, you have some game and want to
improve it or get to the next level, the class will really blow you
away. I learned so much in just a few days that it will take me months
before I can implement it. But I know that the field report I just
posted the other day with four kiss closes would not have been possible
without what I learned. It makes such a huge difference to be watching
and doing it, instead of just reading about it. I got three number
closes and one kind of weak kiss close my first night out, which is
alright, considering I was in a group of five guys.
And, honestly, what I loved most in the class is that it was like
being out with the asf newsgroup whispering in your ear. Many people
here go out sarging, come back without a good close, and then post
asking for advice on what they should have done. Well, here, you're
sitting on a couch with a girl, and Mystery is coming over or sending
someone over to whisper just what to do in your ear, like MORE KINO or
HER SHOULDER or whatever.


I want to know about natural penis enlargement exercises.  I've read about
some on the
Internet and I am sick of being 'average' all my life! Has anyone done them
and got them to work (I haven't!) and have any hints or tips for little
('average') Sergio?


Mark B.:
On the topic of assuming a negative outcome.
Over the weekend I read a book called the Positive Power of Negative
Thinking by Julie Norem.
The book talks about defensive pessimists which are people who assume that the
worst will likely happen and prepare extensively for that occurrence. These
are not negative
people because they have hope for a positive outcome but remain realistic
by assuming that there will be problems along the way and things may not go
their way. She also says that not everyone can be an optimist or converted
to one and have it work for them. In fact, she has conducted studies which
show that people who are pessimists by nature do worse on assigned tests
and tasks when they are told to be optimistic about their outcomes.
Conversely people that are natural optimists do worse when they are told to
assume the possibility of failure. Therefore the attitude of assuming the
worst outcome is not something that can work for everyone but it can work
for those of us who worry and feel nervous and anxious about meeting women
or dealing with them especially for the first time. By assuming a high
likelihood of negative outcome but having hope for a positive one,
defensive pessimists are able to deal with their anxiety and nervousness.
North American society has ingrained in us the need to be positive and that
it's really the only way to achieve our goals. When we have negative
thoughts we somehow see ourselves as bad people or inadequate in someway.
The problem is compounded when we try to be optimistic, fail and feel
crushed as a result and immobilized from further action. I know many people
who say they had goals and objectives only to be crushed and give up when
they did not pan out. It's never good to
feel this way for you want to live your life to the fullest.
I realized that in essence I am one of these defensive optimists. I do the
best when I assume that odds are that things will go wrong or nothing will
happen but I still have hope they will work out. I do the best when I
assume things will be difficult and when I place huge goals for myself,
almost ones that are impossible to reach. But although they seem impossible
to reach I work my butt off and even if I get half way there I still do
well. Reading this book and looking back over my life I see that
I thrive on adversity and do the best when I set huge challenges in front
of myself and assume
high difficulty of achieving my goal.
For example, I am much more motivated by the goal of sleeping with 100
women in one year than with 10 which is more realistic. It's likely that if
my goal is 100 than I may reach 30 or 40 but that is better than 10. I am
much more motivated to improve when I assume that most women will not want
to go out with me or by knowing that picking up women is difficult and when
it happens I am not crushed but when I have success it's a pleasant
surprise and I am much happier this way.
I also looked back at the beginning of my two LTR's and realized that when
I went out with both women I had no intention of either one of them being

my girlfriend but only wanted to go out and have a good time. I assumed
nothing would ever come out of it but something did. Each time I went out
with the intent of making a woman my girlfriend little ever worked out.
When I did not care about whether a woman agreed to a date, virtually all
agreed and vice versa but I could never understand or figure out how to get
myself to that non-caring but still caring state. Now I know - assume the
worst but hope for the best. It's like becoming aware of what works for you
and then living it.
For me the most frustrating thing in my life has been trying to be positive
and think positively. Virtually every book in the self help section tells
you how to be positive but for me it only serves to further my anxiety.
When I think of approaching a woman and wanting a positive response even
the thought of being shut down is enough to make me not approach her but
when I assume that she is most likely not to be receptive I have a lot more
courage and feel calm and relaxed when going up to her. This is my key for
being totally confident and relaxed with little anxiety over my outcomes.
This is my way of living the Tao of Steve. With this realization I feel
invigorated and energized to go back out there and become the true master.
I highly suggest this book and some honest self reflection to anyone who
has ever tried to be positive only to feel worse about it or for those with
high levels of nervousness or anxiety about an outcome that seems to stifle
your best efforts. It prevents you from feeling crushed and immobilized
when things do not go your way and more importantly allows you to keep
going in the face of failure and adversity which is really the key to
success - being able to get up after being knocked down by life, and in our
case by women. Like I said, it's not for everyone but for those that are
this way it's a life saver.
I highly suggest you at least browse through the book and I would like to
hear your thoughts and experiences with this.


Voodoo Daddy (
I was at a happy hour and figured it's time to try some high-octane
sarging... so I meet this HB10+ and start with some generic patterning (no
connection, all arousal) and she's touching me and we're doing kino... so
she tells me her favorite sex joke (penises are like fish: throw back the
small ones, eat the medium ones, mount the big ones). So, I tell her RJ's
"voodoo dildo" joke. She says, "that's a long one." I say, "you can tell
while we're still dressed?" She gives me her number. I go to leave, she
says to meet at her place.


Time for an outing (rather, fuckup) report from my side for the list.
First some background info on the thing .. this is about a marriage I went
to recently.  Hindu marriages in India are a long drawn out affair, spread
over three odd days, and several rituals and ceremonies.
The main thing was on the first nite when we had a Ladies' music programme
(some singing and dancing plus some traditional makeup).  Now on this day I
met three different females, one a 19 year HB8Eyes who had those seductive
eyes like the models.  Then a 15 year old HB9+ who was a neighbour (I'd
have done anything to get her when I was 15 - I'm 19 now ; ) and a 17 year
old HB7. Now in the evening we teenagers were having our own dance party
when this HB7 (the 17 year old)comes up to me and puts a bag in front of
me. The conversation followed:
Me: (I wait for one second then look surprisedly into her eyes) Hey, what's
this for?
HB7: Well, don't you have any decency or chivalry? What does a girl mean
when she does this?. Take this to
Me: (I laugh as if some big joke is on) hehe .. Decency and chivalry
 me? You've got to be kidding.  No way, you ain't my sister and you
ain't my gf.  It's your thing do it yourself.
Then I walked out of the room calmly leaving her fuming and fretting.  Next
time I see her she says 'You are so baad ...'  I put on a really amused
expression and say 'SO?' and all my cousins nearby break out laughing.
(Thanks, Sisonpyh, for the bratty sister frame, which I consciously
Neway, meanwhile I also met this 15 year old HB9+  I'd talked about
earlier.  Perfect body, pouting lips and a killer smile.  While on the
dance floor she was preening quite a lot (good dancer, though) so all I do
is go and copy her best steps right in front of her and in a really idiotic
fashion.  In such a comical way that even she stops, bursts out laughing
and says "Brother, don't do that!"
Later she hangs on to me during the rest of the ceremonies, as in I'm the
only guy she stays with. She acts damn cold with the other guys and my
cousin later tells me that they were really surprised by her warm and nice
behaviour towards me which wasn't typical of her.  Bratty sister frame rulez!
Yeah and another thing I did to her: she had her hair tied up in a bun.  So
I went up to her and said: "Hey, you look sooo cute!
smile> Your hair looks like an ice cream scoop
can I take a bite?"
Omigod, everyone around cracked up laughing and I had such a ball.  But
that sure set the tone for her to talk to me and she wasn't bitchy at all
with me ; )  She knew I was a practical joker and that she'd better watch
her step around me.
Then there was the bride's sister (a 7).  Met her on the dance floor and I
start some light kino.  And later without much talk, only a few jokes in
between I got in to heavy kino, much to the surprise of others around.  Got
her number at the end though.
Onto the big fuckup: the 19 year old HB8 eyes I mentioned earlier.
Met her, built some rapport then went into the strawberry and cube
games.  Her cube btw was: small 20 cm, ladder resting on cube, horse strong
but far from cube and standing alone while flowers were far out. The clouds
kinda hang over the cube (what do these clouds mean, guys?)
did some more value elicitation and kinda busted her when she talked about
her ideal relationship. She said she needed a guy better than her current
bf, someone who was fun and exciting and not just a door mat.  Someone who
could turn the fires on within her and someone who could give her the kind
of relationship that she needed, and she said some lines about following
her heart and doing what she really wants deep inside.
Now during this she had gone into a DDB state but some cousins came over
and took her away for some shit job (Q:how could I have avoided this
cockblock?).  I kinda resisted but then said okay. Now I didn't know how to
close here cuz we still had some more time which we had to spend nearby
each other and I felt like I was staling going on talking.   But I didn't
know anything better,  so I disappeared for some time only to find her back
and looking for me.  Then we spent some more time together about some fluff
(I was damned tired) and soon left though she didn't say bye to me properly
(suddenly disappeared without me doing a proper bf destroyer on her ;
)   The next day, we meet and I say "Hi, I think we have met before,
haven't we?  Aha! I met you at 's marriage.  What
side were you from: the brides' or the grooms'?"
Now at this point she breaks into a smile and apologizes for not saying bye
to me last time and then grabs my arm and says "Come to the Dance
floor."  I Kinda show some resistance but go there and get light kino
going.  Some 15 minutes later her friends show up and they take her
away  while I was dancing there (I was dancing with the other females
mentioned earlier).  Her bf appears and she dances with him for some
time.  Then without any warning she kinda ignores me and dances with
another guy who was her neighbour.  This happens for some 10-15 minutes
after which I tell myself "Fuck it" and proceed to have a ball with the
other girls I already had with me and ignored her.  Some time later, she
gives me one of those "Why are you not paying attention to me?" looks while
with her bf.  Now this is where I think I finally fucked up:  I couldn't
decide what to do, but rather than supplicate and go to her, I just ignored
her and continued dancing till the end of the evening.
So guys, do send in your opinions and constructive criticisms especially
with regard to the last HB8eyes.  How could I have improved it?


Leo: (Commenting on:"Mark B.:
Regarding the "How to Succeed with Women" book:  162 pages into the book I
see the guys are geniuses. They have a slew of other tips and
recommendations and just by reading the first 162 pages one could have
great success with that alone."):

Their tip to wave to girls is priceless. Just wave to them anytime anywhere.
You'll be amazed with the response.
Another great advice (not related to PU directly) is to put shoe trees into
your shoes.
Their book, however, just like anything else, requires discretion: some of
their advice is totally AFCish.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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