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"Kiss Openers"

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Kiss Openers
12/1/01 10:08:47 AM Eastern Standard Time


Kiss Openers

This the opener where I just walk up and kiss the girl with no
verbals. I did a few close to this, this weekend.  One was a one sentence to
the kiss (the sentence was just fluff, everything was really non-verbal) and
the other was about 2 minutes to the kiss, which is not an opener, but
fairly quick.  I don't know exactly how to make this work on paper, but
I'll try.
It must be clear that this is not a beginners move, so "if you try this at
home, do so at your own risk/reward." I've only used it in bars.
Anyway...  It's really about where you are at with your state. I sort of
get in this mode where I decide that lots of women want to kiss me, and I
just have to find out which ones. When I walk up to a woman to open it's
like looking for the prize under a bottle cap. Not everyone is an instant
winner, but you find enough to make it worth looking. So, I walk up and try
to kiss her, but your sensory acuity has to be very high. I watch for the
same glazed over eyes, quivering lips and flushed face that I would to see
if a girl would kiss me in general. There is more to this than just that,
because I have done this from across the room without getting eye
contact.  In other words, I saw a girl and knew the kiss opener would work,
so I walked over and started kissing her even though she never looked up. I
could just
tell. Back to the bottle cap analogy, with some of them you may not be an
instant winner, but sometimes you can still win prize in the mail. In other
words, if you move in to get the kiss, but for what ever reason it isn't
there you can transition into a standard opener as long as you haven't gone
so far as to commit to the kiss. I'm also not sure by any stretch that the
failed kiss opener is a dead end unless she is actually freaked out by it
and runs away, etc. To be clear, the move in for the kiss is very slow and
deliberate, not fast and forceful. She has every opportunity to make it
clear that she does or doesn't want to be kissed, but no opportunity to
think it over. You can show no hesitancy, but also no eagerness. The art is
in the slowness. The slow confidence. Too slow though and she will freak
out. I would say it's about 2.5 seconds from the start of the head movement
to the touch of the kiss.

(Commenting on: "DoctorDick:  I can't get in edgeways and anything I do try
to put in looks like a lame add-on or just out of place. I really don't
know what to do as in the area I live and the social situation I'm in,
these are the type of environments I'm in constantly. I don't know how to
knock other guys out of the water with efficiency and smoothness. Could
someone please help me...")

NightLight9 replies: Dude, you are in a bar situation. People go to bars to
have fun not to get deep. So you need to build rapport and generate fun
(should be easy, that's why they are there). Then at the right moment you
can get deep, but only if it's demanded. Sounds like it's not, as everyone
else is getting laid being funny... Think about the second sentence again
and again. SS is all about generating positive states. You are in a place
where people come to generate a positive state. Use it to your advantage.

Nightlight9 asks Halbster. Did those questions come from the book "if"?
They were awesome, where did you get them? Who wrote "if"?

(NightLight9 commenting on: "Gregory Rasputin: Well, maybe if there was a
Webster's definition to GM then you could make a statement like that, but
because there's no solid definition for it, you can't tell me what is and
what isn't GM."):

Actually, Nathan SZILARD coined term and the definition is pretty well
understood by those who were there when he did it (to describe a specific
person and later it was expanded to cover a genre).  The usefulness of any
jargon is weakened if we allow it to be improperly used. I agree that there
is no one standard definition.  GM is being over top with insulting and
cocky attitude towards women followed with heavy kino, all with complete
disregard for their comfort level.


I still not feel completely comfortable going to a club alone.
What do you answer to the question 'Are you here alone?' to not
come over as having no friends or just making up some stupid

Cliff's Comment:  I tend to go into places and, if asked, I respond that I
am waiting for some friends to show up (which is true, only these are
friends I haven't met yet...).  If you end up spending a lot of time with
someone or a group and they ask you later, it is really not unusual that
people changed their plans and ended up not coming to a club as they were
supposed to.  This also goes back to David's rule #1 "who cares what they
think?"  It really shouldn't make any difference to you.


Ross: (Commenting on: "Marco: Are you sarging alone in NYC? How much faster
could you learn if you had dozens of skilled wingmen right there with you
at your disposal? New York City Team Strike Force (NYCTSF) is a group of
highly committed members dedicated to the discovery of "hyper-seduction" by
APPLYING any and all tools available to us. We not only discuss our
best/worst principles, spotlight fellow New York pimps, do demos and
change-work, but we always GO OUT AND TEST what we learned out on the
pavement, where it all happens. Our yahoo Jurassic Lair forum is one the
BIGGEST in the world with nearly 100 members and we meet every 3-4 weeks to
trade notes and hit the streets together. Although we have many
high-profile members attending our meetings (including Asiatic, Vinigarr,
Mike2velli, Mearkin3, etc), Ross Jeffries the guru of the seduction world -
came by personally, to tell us
that what he heard and saw at our Lair was “pure GOLD!”"):

Guys, I will say it: Marco has a GREAT group going. Top flight members(and a
few weenies too) and great organization. JOIN!


Mark B.:
(Commenting on: "First, let me ask you a question. What do you guys think
is THE ultimate
KEY SUCCESS FACTOR in seducing a woman? Appearance? Confidence? Being cocky
and funny? No, the MOST important key success factor to get laid is NOT
appearance or
being a jerk or being funny or whatever. It is simply TALKING. That's all
there is to it. Just TALK to them."):

I agree, partially. Sometimes just opening your mouth will cause a woman to
ramble on forever but what do you talk about? You can talk about the WTC
bombing or how attractive she is and how you want to set her pussy on fire.
I have discovered the need to ask questions as well as make contributions
to the conversation of your own thoughts and opinions. Good opening for me
too is to talk first about something relevant about the situation based on
where you are. Best is making your intent known right away, though.

(Commenting on: "This brings me to the second secret I want to let you
REJECTION!!! Surprised? Well,
I cannot express how surprised I was when I heard this revelation from a
PUA friend! It opened a whole new world for me. Let me explain. In my
previous AFC years, I didn't have the guts to approach and talk to a girl,
just because I was too afraid to be rejected. Sounds familiar? Well, let me
tell you that rejection is a misconception, it's something that doesn't
have to exist. It's possible to NEVER get rejected!!! Ok, ok, I will
explain this in detail. I found out that a real PUA never gets rejected,

I have news for you. THERE IS SUCH A THING AS REJECTION, BUDDY. The more you
face it the more you succeed. Besides, why are most guys so afraid of it
anyways? It's a part of living. There are many things beyond your control,
such as her attitude, her past scars, the type of man she is attracted to,
her preferences, her mood, etc. that you should not be concerned about. I
have learned that rejection is personal but I have little or no
responsibility for it because if I know her only for a short time I have no
or little influence over her ideas and attitudes. The only thing I can do
is take a stand to see if she fits into my mold and take it from there. If
she does not then that's part of the game. Next. But taking a stand and
having a mold is important because if you try to mold yourself to everyone
else you end up nowhere because people want value not something they
already have which is themselves. By moulding yourself to others all we do
is become more of them which is what most people are not interested in.

(Commenting on: "He doesn't close EVERY TIME he talks to a girl. For me, I
think about 90% of my approaches are now without a close. Most times
because the HB isn't as attractive or fun as I thought she would be, or I
didn't establish the amount of rapport for a close right away and decide to
close her another time (i.e. an hour later) or maybe I just want to talk to
her and nothing else (because I'm with my girlfriend, whatever)".)"

I think this is more of a defence mechanism for someone that has been
scarred with rejection. It's fine to walk away but do not use it as an
excuse for not going for what you want. "or I didn't establish the amount
of rapport for a close right away" - you never really know whether you have
rapport - many times I thought I did only to get nowhere because they wanted
to be "nice". Set the frame and work her within it. Forget getting rapport
first. Go for what you want right away and then seek rapport.

(Commenting on: "He DOESN'T APPEAR to pick her up. He just establishes a
conversation using a remark about her surroundings as a casual opener,
listens to her, has fun and is very upbeat"):

This could work if she is already interested in him. But if she is neutral
then it could work against you.

(Commenting on: "He doesn't close by asking for a DATE, but instead he
offers her an
OPPORTUNITY. For instance, I never say: "Do you want to go out with me?" but
I present it as an opportunity. Last week I talked to a HB a about how great
it is to ski on the slopes of a white mountain, enjoying the speed, feeling
the warmth of the sun on your cheeks, blah, blah (patterning)"):

I say "It would be good for us to go skiing together."  I talked about this
earlier. Never ask because that forces her to reveal herself and some HB's
may not want to right away. This way at least you are making yourself part
of the equation rather than just the skiing.

(Commenting on: "My enthusiastic story got her excited and I said: "But
before I go on holiday, I have to refine my techniques. So next week I'm
going to (name of a familiar and popular indoor ski center in Holland)
together with some friends." HB: "Oh, sounds great." Me: "You should join
us next week! It'll be fun!" So she gave me her number to call her what
time we would go. It's really that easy! See, I didn't ASK her"):

I see danger here because you are making the trip your focal point rather
than you. If you want to bang her when are you going to make it known? Are
you going to tell her that she should fuck your body so to protect yourself
from being rejected? "It's my body she is rejecting, and not me so I am not
being rejected". You may be putting yourself in a position where you are
making something else the point of focus rather than you.

(Commenting on: "Ok, so what if she would say: "Well sounds fun, but I have
some other
things to do"? I would then just say: "Too bad. You would have loved it.
Maybe some other time" See? I didn't get rejected. She rejected the skiing
opportunity, NOT ME. And believe me, next time you see her, express how
great it was she'll be much more receptive".):

If you were Brad Pitt she would have said yes. Let's not overly rationalize

(Commenting on: "If a girl however doesn't WANT to talk, he still didn't
get rejected, because she didn't want to TALK and he didn't CLOSE her. For
me, I would just leave her after a couple of minutes saying to myself:
"Geez! SHE is boring, SHE probably has her period, SHE must be a real
bitch". All with a smile on my face and laughter in my heart. Cause I'm
always happy that they revealed their true personality so quickly. It saved
me a lot of time and some money too!"):

News for you. You were rejected, buddy. But it was not your total
responsibility that it happened. I believe that there is a difference
between taking things personally and responsibility. Rejection is always
personal but whether it's your responsibility is more based on the length of
time you spent with her.

(Commenting on: "So don't be a wallflower and make the same mistake as I
made. It took me
four years to find out that rejection is something that doesn't have to
exist. So there is no need to be afraid to approach a girl. Sure you'll
feel a bit nervous in approaching a girl, but to me that's excitement, not

Rejection does exist. It's the meaning you attach to it that makes a

Cliff's Comment:  I tend to agree that there is no such thing as rejection
unless you take it yourself that way.  Generally speaking, women turn guys
down "because they don't know them" (their usual crap).  Of course,
sometimes they turn guys down because they DO know them.  But how you
respond to it is the key.  Again, we come back to David's rule #1 - "who
cares what they think?"  I personally have become pretty immune to
"rejection" when you are just meeting someone (I think if you really think
about it, the only time "rejection" is real is once you've really gotten to
know someone and then they dump you) because I know they don't know
anything about me and I don't really know what is going on with them (I
will never forget how once I met these two girls when I was on vacation in
St. Maarten and they seemed like very normal, easy going women.  When I was
alone once with one of them, she explained to me how the other one's fiance
was killed in a car accident a few weeks earlier -- how can anyone expect a
warm reception from someone who just went through something like that, and
how do you know the girl you are approaching hasn't just gone through some
similar tragedy?  So if you go up expecting nothing but look for the best,
you can't lose.

Mark B. continues:
On another note, check out this e-mail from a girl I have known for 12
years who I am only friends with. She is getting married next year. More
curiously check out her response.
This is me going first.
"We have to get together before the end of the year. Also I was wondering
that since you are not yet married if you are 100% faithful to your
borefriend, you know, since we have known each other for so long and it's
probably good if you take a last bit of fun before it's illegal for you to,
you know...... How about we get together on December the 14th at 12:00 for
lunch. Let me know.........."
Her response:
"Hi Mark,
I know that this is a small consolation but I'll take you up on one of the
offers....lunch on Dec., 14th. As for the other offer, sorry to disappoint
you, he has my heart. It's better to be safe than sorry with respect to my
P.S. I got to give you brownie points for trying.
P.S.S. Where to you want to meet for lunch?
See, she did not hide or get upset or try to bite my head off or take great
offence to what I said but actually appreciated the offer.....


I met this girl, Lacey, and her girlfriend friend a while back. My goal is
to have her to become my girlfriend. I first was first trying to get with
her friend, but then I decided I want her instead. I called her last Sunday
and told her she missed out on this party I went to and we talked for a
while about how we both are not going out with anyone and how good it would
be to have someone to go out with. I talked to her about this great new
movie theatre between both of our houses and invited her to check it out
with me this weekend. She told me to call her on Wednesday or Thursday
(Thanksgiving). I tried using the, "No, you call me on Wednesday," thing on
her before, but this did not work before so I did not use it. I called and
left a message on Wednesday on her answering machine (I just left a plain
message because she lives with her mom -- anyone have good NLP/SS messages
appropriate to leave on an answering machine of a girl who lives with her
mom?) Called on Thursday and did not leave a message, called on Friday, and
she was not there. At this point, I went to go see this other girl and
banged her in order to maintain my mental edge. Called the girl I really
want on Saturday and her sister gave me her work number. I talked to her at
work but then she had to go and she said she would call me back. I waited,
but not for long, for her to call me back and later checked my caller id
and found she did not call me back! Meanwhile, I went to a party, which did
not pan out. Afterwards, I went to the same club I met this girl at. She
was there with her girlfriend, the same one I originally met.
As an aside, Lacey has previously complained that guys always approached
her friend. It appears that her friend has a more dominant personality than
her. When kinoing the girl I want, the girlfriend told me that some guy was
trying to talk to her and started inserting herself in the kino situation
so the guy would leave her alone. He left and I was there with my arms
around both of them. In the past, all guys that they have met have been as
a result of her friend doing the meeting.
Background wise, the girl Lacey is smart, several of her cousins go to
Harvard, but she does not go to college presently, though she is 19. She
had a car, but got into several crashes. Anyway, miscellaneously, she has a
very humorous personality and has stated she is not really into sleeping
around and supposedly has had sex only 6 times with one guy. I suspect I
have oneitis for Lacey so I have been PUing other girls and banging them
but I still find myself wanting to out with her even more as my girlfriend.
Well, I have tried so far complimenting her, saying that she is hot because
she is always talking about those other girls "who look like models."  I
noticed that when I mentioned me getting other girls, she mentioned that
they probably had perfect bodies She also has said that I am hot. When
asking about her ideal guy, she mentioned that she liked big/fat guys with
tattoos and piercings. I checked on her friend with this, and this is
actually true. This is not me, so I tried to have her imagine feeling that
way with a guy who looks like me. She has asked me, "So, how many girls do
you have sex with a week?" I told her, "Wouldn't you like to know. How many
guys do you have sex with in a week.?'" She said none, and when asked per
month, she said none also.
Anyways, at the club, I danced with other girls while they were watching
me. Her friend asked me to, "hold her spot" where they were standing while
they wanted to go to the bathroom and I disappeared and was found by them
talking to another girl and kinoing her. Later, I did do the "you're hair
is so soft" thing with Lacey. This was well received and appeared to be an
excellent move. And, I told her she smelled really good while smelling her,
and was able to get more kino with her than I was previously.
Lacey's friend, who incidentally has a boyfriend, does think that I am good
looking, and was feeling up my abs/stomach and said she would get with me
if she didn't have a boyfriend. I then tried to enlist her to try to get
Lacey extremely interested in me. And not to worry if she found herself
thinking about me many, many times throughout her week while going about
her daily business. We drove around for a while to go to another club but
they could not get in because they were not old enough. I suggested we go
back to my place or get a hotel room but eventually they dropped me back at
my car and everyone went home because they were tired. Note, these girls
have previously came to my house but always in groups, never individually.
I know I am not putting out any vibe about me being needy for sex because I
can get that. I worry that I may have implied somehow that I am somewhat
eager for a girlfriend type situation. I know I can get sex -- it is just
managing to get girls to go out with me as my girlfriend that is my
problem. I even was talking to her on the phone once and used this embedded
command, "You know, it's interesting, these girls out there just want to
use me for sex, Lacey."
I tried asking Lacey what her fantasy was, implying sex. And she mentioned
that she wanted to go to Disneyland, jokingly. Incidentally, we also have
an ongoing joke about getting married. I then segued into a Discovery
Channel pattern, and she replied that if she died on the roller coaster, at
least her family would get a lot of life insurance. Anyways, I have managed
to keep her intrigued with me by her noticing I am getting all these other
girls, but have not managed to convince her to go out with me.
What to do???

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


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