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"She is the catch of all catches"

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She is the catch of all catches
12/3/01 5:57:51 PM Eastern Standard Time


Sly (rea***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]): I will be in Toronto between Dec 24 and Jan 1,
I was hoping you could let readers interested in getting together for
sarging during that time know by passing on my email address. Also, I would
like to add that your emails are a great service for helping "clueless"
guys understand that being an ass kissing little whiner baby will not make
you a ladies man.


Dwacon: King of the Sex Toys
(Commenting on NightLight9:  This the opener where I just walk up and kiss
the girl with no verbals."):

I had to laugh. I did something very similar at an event... but I opened
with, "What is your perfume? May I have a sniff?" then pulled her tight and
kissed her neck. She purred, "Oh, you're a baaaad boy" and seemed
simultaneously fascinated and evasive. I found out later that she was
married and her husband was only a few paces away. D-OHH !!! This was a
singles event but it turned out that there was a high percentage of couples
attending. Go figure.
The perfume thing is a favorite but one must make no bones about your "bad"
intentions. Don't be apologetic or back away. When we were in Montreal I
remember grabbing this one chyck on the street and giving her a playful
bus.  It didn't go anywhere but we had quite a fun exchange while Cliff,
MTL-PUA and the others had a go at her friends. There is something to be
said about being forward.  I find that you can tell the receptiveness of a
woman scientifically.
Ferinstance, it is pretty much established that a woman is her horniest
near her ovulation cycle and when she goes out she shows more skin and is
more flirtatious than at other times. I was at a party at the Australian
Embassy this week (it is their Centennial, or I think they called it
Centenary) and the usual D.C. socialite snobs were there... but I noticed a
few women who
would angle their group in front of me and preen... talk louder and make
gestures (unlike the normal liquid nitrogen freeze-out) and I walked away
with one phone hook-up with a very toned Angela Bassett look-alike. She has
a body-builder physique and I think she could hurt me. I might even let
her. But seriously folks...

(Commenting on: "Anyway... It's really about where you are at with your

This can't be emphasized enough. By nature, I am verry quiet and laid
back... and my friends say this is most frightening to them. When I flick
on the "gregarious switch" people seem more at ease. The more forward and
in your face I am, the better... but when I wax quiet and introspective,
you'd think I had a chain saw in one hand and a Freddy Krueger glove on the
other. Go figure...I was at the café last night when this Lee Ann Rimes
wannabe was performing
with her band. I wanted to find a rotten tomato to throw, but her big chest
and double-onion derriere made me overlook the fact that I would rather
listen to my dog howl than hear her singing. Anyway, turned out she was
married (D-OHH!) but her road manager was easy bait... but she wasn't the
type of fish I was hungry for so I threw her back.


Re: Kiss Openers:
I reckon this is bad idea. I have done something similar tho, which worked
(amazingly well).
Me and a friend (the one in question) were working together on a project,
and basically, by leading her sense of humour, managed to get her so that
she was trying to block me on some stairs (all for fun). Instead of just
dodging her, I went straight up and kissed her, really fast. Naturally she
was stunned, and froze. I smiled, and walked around her with no resistance.
There rest, well, is history.
About doing this in clubs, etc. with people you don't know (even if you
have a sort of intuition), I reckon it's a bad idea, because it only takes
one mistake to find out you were wrong, or she's got a 9 ft bf who's just
gone to the toilet or whatever..... i.e. shit could hit the fan, when you
could just do standard chat --> kiss jobbie, which is reasonable fun
anyway. But then,
that's just me, I'm not in it just for the sex.


(Commenting on: "NightLight9 replies: Dude, you are in a bar situation.
People go to bars to  have fun not to get deep. So you need to build
rapport and generate fun (should be easy, that's why they are there). Then
at the right moment you can get deep, but only if it's demanded."):

Well put. I have said again and again and again to NO avail: patterns and
such work in CONTEXT.  CONTEXT includes:
the physical environment
the social rules of that environment
The woman's personal emotional map and suggestibility and experience
External interferences/interruptions


(Commenting on: "In other words, I saw a girl and knew the kiss opener
would work, so I walked over and started kissing her even though she never
looked up. I could just tell.")

Whenever I model people, I always love it when they talk about their
abilities and use the word "JUST" before they describe the skill set.  "I
could JUST tell".  Now my job is to take the verb 'tell' and get them to
elaborate, but it's gonna be a challenge because they put the word 'just'
in front of it.  When they say 'just', it usually means they are at the
limit of their world model and will fight me tooth and nail when I ask,
"How specifically do you engage in the activity of being able to 'just
tell' if she will be receptive to the kiss opener?"

Now, when you ask them, they will give you the answer non-verbally within
the first second, and the conscious, verbal answer will be
meaningless.  Because the skill of 'just being able to tell' is most likely
completely unconscious.  Too bad I'm not there to make you cough it up.......

NightLight, do you have two beds?  You must.  One for you, and one for your

(Commenting on:"Souris:
I still not feel completely comfortable going to a club alone. What do you
answer to the question 'Are you here alone?' to not come over as having no
friends or just making up some stupid excuse."):

This is the high school mentality.  Keep on thinking this way and you are
going to have a miserable life and die alone in your dirty diapers. You're
so concerned about what others think STOP IT and live your life.

"Are you here alone?"

"Are you here alone?"
"Not anymore : )"

"Are you here alone?"
"I am one with the Universe."

"Are you here alone?"
"Just me and my dick."

It doesn't matter what you say because there's nothing wrong with going
hunting alone!  I actually prefer it.  Remember, YOU are the commodity, not

(Commenting on: "I have news for you. THERE IS SUCH A THING AS REJECTION,
BUDDY. The more you face it the more you succeed. Besides, why are most
guys so afraid of it anyways? It's a part of living. There are many things
beyond your control, such as her attitude,
her past scars, the type of man she is attracted to, her preferences, her
mood, etc. that you should not be concerned about."):

Yes, there is such a thing, and the way I look at it is that she can't
reject ME because she barely knows ME.  She can reject my looks, my style,
my approach, etc., but not STEPHANE.  She doesn't have access to the real
ME...yet...she can if she behaves herself.

Since rejection is a fact of life, why not enjoy it?  I make a friggin'
GAME out of it.  Last night I gave a girl a nice hard-hitting compliment on
her looks, and she barely smiled, and looked at me
weirdly.  So I said,"You need to learn something."  I said,"You need to
learn how to accept a compliment--it's a sign of maturity." After I said
that, she bought me a beer and was all over me.

(Commenting on: "I met this girl, Lacey, and her girlfriend friend a while
back. My goal is to have her to become my girlfriend."):

There's a story that I like about a guy who found this magic lamp and
rubbed it and a Genie came out and asked him to make 3 wishes.  So we
wished for all the gold and riches in the world and he got it.  Only
problem is it fell out of the sky and killed him immediately.

(Commenting on: "we talked for a while about how we both are not going out
with anyone and how good it would be to have someone to go out with."):

You need a good kick in the ass, and I am more than happy to give it. You
are what's known as a PUSSY.  Because instead of getting straight to the
point and going for what you want in life, you are jerking her around and
being vague.

I read your post, and you're doing alot of things right and alot of things
wrong.  I won't comment on the good stuff, like hitting on and sleeping
with other girls in front of her.  I will ONLY comment on your mistakes:

"I talked to her about this great new movie theatre between both of our
houses and invited her to check it out with me this weekend."

PUSSY!  What do you want??  Do you want the movie, or do you want HER?

"I just left a plain message because she lives with her mom -- anyone have
good NLP/SS messages appropriate to leave on an answering machine of a girl
who lives with her mom?"

Why should you have to hide from the mother?  If you want to leave a
seductive message, then DO IT!  Look at it this way--if the mother hates
you, then the girl will love you : )
It is a known fact that pretty little girls date bad boys, etc. to piss off
their parents. Besides, why should you make yourself boring for the
mother?  If you like the girl and want to be seductive
and romantic THEN DO IT.  Who knows, perhaps you will nail the mother, too.

"I talked to her at work but then she had to go and she said she would call
me back."

Always be the first one to hang up the phone and always be the first one to
end the date and always be the first one to do the dumping.

"Lacey has previously complained that guys always approached her friend."

That's because her friend doesn't act like such a Virgin fuckin' Mary.  I
would tell her that, too!

"Background wise, the girl Lacey is smart, several of her cousins go to
Harvard, but she does not go to college presently, though she is 19. She
had a car, but got into several crashes. Anyway, miscellaneously, she has a
very humorous personality and has stated she is not really into sleeping
around and supposedly has had sex only 6 times with one guy."

Get to the part where she opens her throat.  Can she deep throat? That's
what I want to know!  She had sex only 6 times with one guy?  Then RUN, my
friend, RUN!  Because either the is a liar, or she only had sex 6
times.  In that case, you will have to train her, and once you do, you
won't be able to get rid of her.  Take it from me, I used to be into Virgin
Mary's.  Now I want my horses to be trained.

"She also has said that I am hot."

Then why didn't you at least kiss her right then and there?  Don't expect
them to tell you that they want to get fucked.  Those types are few and far
apart.  You have to take the subtle hints and go for it.  I'm not saying
you NEED hints (you should just go for it anyway no matter what), but
JEEEZ!  She told you that you were HOT!

"When asking about her ideal guy, she mentioned that she liked big/fat guys
with tattoos and piercings. I checked on her friend with this, and this is
actually true."

Remember what I said about pissing off the parents?

"I tried to have her imagine feeling that way (attracted) with a guy who
looks like me."

If a chyck tells me that she likes fat ugly guys with piercings, I would
ask her,"What about them do you like?"  If she truly does like them and
goes into a horny-type state as she describes them, I'd anchor it.  Then I
would say,"I really respect a girl who knows what she wants." and fire off
the anchor and kiss her.

"I worry that I may have implied somehow that I am somewhat eager for a
girlfriend type situation."

The problem is that you haven't stated it enough.  Women want a strong
romantic guy.  They don't want a shy guy who beats around the bush (instead
of getting into her bush directly).

"I know I can get sex -- it is just managing to get girls to go out with me
as my girlfriend that is my problem."

You're too young for marriage.  Having girlfriends will just give you a
fuckin headache--especially if they are 19!

"What to do???"

Eliminate your habit of caring what she thinks.


This is a great parable to make a point when you really need to or even as
a live story it's pretty effective...can't remember where I found this,

The Woman and The Stone
A wise woman who was traveling in the mountains found a precious stone in a
stream. The next day she met another traveler who was hungry, and the wise
woman opened her bag to share her food. The hungry traveler saw the
precious stone and asked the woman to give it to him. She did so without
hesitation. The traveler left, rejoicing in his good fortune. He knew the
stone was worth enough to give him security for a lifetime. But a few days
later he came back to return the stone to the wise woman.   "I've been
thinking," he said, "I know how valuable the stone is, but I give it back
in the hope that you can give me something even more precious....Give me
what you have within you that enabled you to give me the stone."

(New post by GameMaster):
For the following, the names have been changed to protect my ass!
I was visiting the family over Thanksgiving and by the luck of the draw was
seated at a table with my cousin Jamie. I don't think I've ever mentioned
her but every family should have at least one Jamie to stare at when you
run out of boring conversation. She would be your basic movie star package
if she weren't so shy...a 28 year old school teacher and church goer minus
a boyfriend for about 4 years. Anyway, the bloody mary's were flowing and
the shit was getting pretty deep at my table, Jamie was playing casual
observer without much to say until someone asked me what I was doing in my
spare time! I thought what the fuck, out with it..."I teach guys how to
hypnotize and seduce women."  No reaction from anybody at the table (just
more weird shit from me), except Jamie perked right up and said "Tell me
about that". Holeee Shit, the
door was standing wide open, and BTW, she lives in Alabama so it's OK to
have impure thoughts about your cousins down there and I'd been having
those thoughts for a while. "Well, it's like this, it's not classical
hypnosis....and nobody can be seduced really unless that's 'what you want'.
It's more like, well do you like to hear stories, don't you? Well, I like
to tell stories, I hear sometimes that alone can be very hypnotic...the
seduction thing is just a by-product, I guess. At least it's not intended
that way, and it would never work on you....but look, I have to meet my
ex-GF Angela down here next week for a beer and if you'd like a
demonstration, I'll pick up the tab. She's your age and I think you guys
would be great friends". The trap was set, Jamie said she's love to get to
get together...all very innocent right - I just want to introduce her to a
"new" friend!
Classic plausible deniability.
Anyway, I called her the next day and asked her to meet us for drinks on
Saturday at 5:00....Jamie said it would have to be earlier because the
"Iron Bowl" was on the TV and she wanted to be "at home" for the game.
BINGO! She suggested 2:00 was better for her...I said I'd set it up.
She arrived at exactly 2:00 looking just perfect...pure, virginal, radiant.
I flirted with a twinge of guilt as she ordered a Marguerita. Fluff, fluff,
fluff....I told her about an interesting article I had read about Royal
bloodlines in Europe that extend to the Americas and how they are all
related in some form or another and can all trace the bloodline back to
Charlemagne and Ramses, including the Bush family (which BTW IS related to
the British Royals). Anyway, this seemed like all very innocent
conversation and at 2:20 precisely, I had my friend Dave call my cell to
"make an excuse" for Angela! Oh my, she's stuck at work and can't get away
till later - too
bad! "Sorry Jamie, Angela can't make it ....but look, why don't we just
hang out here until the game starts and we can just have some intelligent
conversation for a change.
You can meet Angela when I come home for Christmas...besides, that stuff
would never work on you, but you'll be amazed at the effect."  Jamie
ordered another drink and settled in, I had a minor flash of an army of
attorneys frantically writing me out of the family will!
Anyway, I did offer one example while we were killing time...Ross'
"caterpillar to a butterfly" story (I think that's on the Masters Series,
it's great). Jamie..."Wow"!
I had just learned Jamie was a very good subject, she dropped. I knew I
would have to stay away from anything sexual or overt...this was sensitive
territory and Jamie was going to have to connect her own dots. So I
launched into a series of random but connected classics like the "hot guy",
"romantic hero," etc. The clock was ticking and I had about thirty minutes
to kickoff and needed to secure my invitation so I worked in my version of
Ross' Blammo (which is still deadly) and I treated it all as an innocent
passing of personal philosophy and shit that I had
read about...Jamie was hooked. "Oh, damn, look at the time...I've got to
get home so I can catch the second half of the game."  Jamie says "I've got
a better idea, why don't you come over to my house and we can watch it
together, besides you haven't seen the house yet."  I mulled that over for
about 2 nanoseconds and I think I had enough presence to say "I would love
to come...with you". Check please!
Ten minutes later, I'm getting the tour and complimenting her on her
"taste"! I had no idea where this was going cause I couldn't make a
move...she had to initiate it or my long standing 'blacksheep" status would
be instantly upgraded to Anti-Christ!
So we settled in with a beer and the remote and I'm trying to figure out
where I go from here when Jamie offers...."Why do you always wear those
cowboy boots?"
God loves me after all. So I start into the whole rodeo deal, she hadn't
heard any
of these stories onacounta being two generations off the mark. Anyway, she
horses but she was intrigued about the bulls, SO......."Rodeo Pattern"....I
think we
both came in our pants. While I had her on the ropes, I didn't hesitate to
launch into
the forbidden "duality of women" pattern followed with several hyper-empiric
"demonstrations"...she was in paradise. Then I hopped up off the couch and
"walked into the kitchen, flipped on a light, and opened the refrigerator
door," all
part of the content. I came back with a Coke and noticed that Jamie had
slid down
to the end of the couch formerly occupied by yours truly.  I sort of stood
there with
a bewildered look like I didn't know where to sit when she reached up with
hands, grabbed the collar of my shirt and pulled me down next to her and
started this
arm-in-arm, head-on-the-shoulder cuddling deal. I let her settle in for
comfort for a
few minutes and then leaned over and began kissing her neck and whispering "we
can't, we shouldn't, you shouldn't feel this way, etc"...all the basics.
This just drove
her to a frenzy and she rolled over to straddle me and began kissing me in
can only be described as a "pre-lim". All the right body parts were making
and after a few minutes I stood right up with her, she wrapped her legs
around me
and we headed to the bedroom where I gently laid her on the side of the bed
her legs hanging to the floor. I wasn't going to waste any time and
immediately peeled
her jeans off and went down on her and she came almost immediately but I
done so I kept going until she had a second orgasm. Now, this is one of my
moves...not only does it put them in a deep hole, it establishes you as a
and accomplished lover...they have to reciprocate. When I was done I pulled
up to a sitting position (eye level) and in about 3 seconds she had my cock
out and
exactly where I wanted it. Women understand reciprocation. Anyway, I made sure
that Jamie would never forget this experience....and we missed the fucking
but I didn't care. I won't bore you with the aftermath of tears and guilt
and all that
bullshit but I assured her as best I could....we'll see what happens
Christmas. We've
only talked once since then but it wasn't about THAT! I think I've got the
hooks in
pretty deep so we'll see.  Worst case, that's one fantasy I can mark off
the list!


Dr. Vital:  (Commenting On:  "I tend to agree that there is no such thing
as rejection
unless you take it yourself that way. Generally speaking, women turn guys
down "because they don't know them" (their usual crap). Of course,
sometimes they turn guys down because they DO know them. But how you
respond to it is the key."):

This is pretty basic stuff, but I know that for me fear of rejection has
been my #1 challenge that has kept me from moving forward.  Even though
I've had plenty of positive responses when I've overcome the fear of
rejection, I was not able to move through it consistently, and therefore
was unable to really begin to challenge myself and use the more "advanced"
techniques that appear here.
But recently I've been able to blast through it every time, consistently,
and I wanted to share it for those who are reading about these amazing
skills, but still struggling with the big step #1.
Every time my fear begins to rise I have a voice in my head that says (in a
nice thick Brooklyn accent), "You're not afraid of *girls* are ya?"
This puts me in a great frame:
She's just a chyck. What is she going to do to me? Fuck me to death? So she
rejects me. So fuckin' what? What difference does it make? Why the hell
would I let this pretty little stranger scare me?  Nothing works for
everybody, but I've tried a lot of different tricks, including the SS
stuff, and this has been working like a charm.  It's easy to play when
there's nothing to lose.


Justin: This isn't for everyone, but one thing I've found to be helpful as
far as getting a good constant state for being outgoing and having fun is
periodically making it a point to go to as far an extreme as possible
without getting arrested (e.g. If you're in a club - go dance in a cage,
even if you suck and guys really aren't allowed, or use any one of the
'dramatic approachs' on ASF). It really helps me put just approaching and
engaging a girl in conversation in perspective.
The other day, I entered a hard body contest on college night in a local
club; loads of fun - something I'll definitely do it again. However, seeing
the winner (and proud wearer of a pink thong) do his thing made me realize
that my groove left something to be desired. Does anyone have any
experience with this kind of thing? How do you learn to dance (I have no
rhythm); is watching MTV/VH1 good or are there any good Internet resources?


Mark B, your posts are thoroughly blowing my mind. I'm curious, what age
group are you targeting with your ultra-direct approaches? Do you find that
they work better with older/younger girls? It seems that it might be a
little too intense for the younger ones, 18-23 or so, mainly the part where
you say you want to have passionate nights with them, etc. Maybe I'm wrong?
Also, would you do that outside of a bar/club setting? I ask because this
approach really caught my attention, it's something that I've been wishing
I was able to do but haven't really attempted yet. I've always thought to
myself, "Fuck wouldn't it be sweet if I could go up to women, no
bullshiting, no patterns, no playing hard to get, and just say whatever the
hell I want, tell them I'm attracted to them and see what happens..." But
this is very against what most PUA's are teaching here, and what I've been
taught. Sis recommends just casually introducing yourself, making her laugh
and being cocky, and acting disinterested and even aloof, creating a little
doubt in her mind that you might not really be interested in
her.  Mystery's method seems somewhat similar, using negs and creating
social proof and being entertaining using a rehearsed routine.  Your
strategy seems so simple I almost can't believe you're getting away with
saying the shit you're saying. Even though it makes perfect sense because
you're just being
completely honest and hiding nothing. I'd like to get some opinions from
you and other people here on why this approach can work when there is no
mystery, she already knows you are into her, there's no game playing, no
playing hard to get, versus other PUA methods that kind of tap-dance around
your true intent.


Mark B.:
Here is something amazing gentlemen.
Two weeks ago I began tanning at my local gym as we have a tanning bed
there. Living in Toronto in the winter does not make for great sunshine and
being naturally very white and pale does not help my cause in the looks
department. After the first session, I took no notice except for a few
people making comments on the improvement of my naturally pale white
complexion.  After the second session a week later here is what happened:
The same day of the 2nd session, movie date with a HB9 I saw about two
months ago. Back then she would hardly kiss me. This time she easily came
back to my place and stayed until the next morning.
Two days later, a woman at a local grocery store tries to pick me up. A cute
cashier smiles and makes deep eye contact - she has served me before but
never even made any eye contact nor smiled in any sort of way before.
Day later - I am having a meal at a strip bar one street down from my house. A
HS10 (hot stripper - HS) comes over and sits down. Does not ask for any
dances and proceeds to tell me she wants me to cook for her at my place and
wants me to eat her pussy because she is horny. Got her number and made
plans to see her later in the week. I never get dances and most girls there
know that but ones that have never given me the time of day actually
commented on my look, said hello and stayed to chat for a bit - big change
from before.
Same night, one hour ahead - arrive at the gym. In Canada we have $1 dollar
coins so not having any I walk up to a HB9.5 at the counter and ask her if
she has any loonies ($1 coins) for the tanning bed. She says no but gives me
some lotion for my body and face, drops some on her pants and says "Oh fuck
me" to which I reply O.K. - she smiles. Next day I see her, chat for a bit,
and at the end she says "Bye, honey."
Next day,  I am in a mall across from my office building where a married
woman works who I fooled around with in the spring. After a major make out
session, she would
not even talk to me when she saw me in her store. I went to see her and she
was all smiles and happy to see me with lots of touching.  The only problem
is she is about 6 months pregnant.  Another big change from before.
Saturday night - Christmas party for an accounting firm as I am a dinner
guest and know only my date. About 6 women approach me during the whole
night and initiate conversations and remain engaged without me really trying
anything special.
All of the above were unsolicited responses from women. I do not recall any
other point in my life where I've had so much attention from women in such
as short period. The only variable that changed was a darker tinge to my
skin which increased my overall level of attractiveness. Could this be
something significant? I think so and only time will tell to what extent.
The significant part of this is that I feel much more confident and relaxed
as a result of knowing that I can easily elicit such a positive response. I
suggest to all you white pale ghosts get a nice tan and see what happens.
Take time to find a good bed and lotion and undoubtedly you'll see your
responses fly.


Marcus:   I was out the other night with two of my buddies who are pretty
quiet at the bar. Steve can hold his own, but Jaime is a mute. Jaime just
broke up with his girl so the mission was to hook him up. I had to find a
threesome to make it worth our while,  obviously. We were at a busy
nightclub in Calgary.  Anyways, I bumped into three tighties after
exchanging shots with a bartender girlfriend of mine.
I went up to the hottest one and began to introduce myself. I lied and said
that I was a national champion speed walker, Steve was the quarterback at
FSU and Jaime is the Canadian snow boarding champion. She looked at me like
I was crazy and trying to pull a line on her so I then told her that I was
lying about myself and Steve but Jaime was honestly the man. (He needed a
boost anyways, right.)
(I play semi-pro hockey and I don't mention that until after I shag her.
Then they are like mmmmmmm and athlete to boot!!!!.)(Athletes initially get
a bad rep.)
Anyways, you could tell that my targeted victim of prey was the ring leader
and was not going to let her guard down easily.
I then told her that I am really a speed walker in training and work pretty
darn hard at it (sarcastic, of course).  I asked her if she had been to any
events lately. She finally broke and she crumpled like the Berlin Wall. She
was in complete and utter hysterics. She couldn't stop laughing for the
rest of the night as we danced and flirted and kissed. I always try and
downplay stuff like that, you know I'm a professional body builder, etc. If
they know that you are kidding and trying to make them laugh they generally
do give in. If not, they are not worth a damn anyways.
She bought all of her own drinks except the one at last call when I was
still motivated to drink so I handed her one for good measure.
She was really a knockout. I took her home and that was that. We're talking
last Thursday night.
Girls at the bar are easy. Some times it's a numbers game.

One thing I have a problem with is this girl that I go to college with.
She's not a problem, she's quite amazing actually. We're both attractive
and neither of us has problems getting a date but we are doing the
friendship thing. Don't get me wrong, she is worth it. We are planning on
being business partners and could quite possibly be good friends for a long
time. She wants to take courses with me. She is known for having guy
friends (no big). Just giving you a low down.
But Cliff, she is the catch of all catches. She's a socialite kind of girl
with all the connections. Eau Naturel and all!! She is really too busy to
realize what she really needs (you and I both know what that is).
Now I am far from perfect in dealing with this one. I have played the laid
back carefree approach without getting frustrated and needy (in her eyes).
Now... I have given her the impression that I am not interested in her in
any way shape or form and she has managed to achieve the reciprocal with
me. Everyone thinks we're dating and we are honestly "at this point" just
She knows we flirted before but pretends she didn't realize it. We kind of
dated (sort of) and then butted heads HUGE. We bumped into each other after
the summer at school and then began just hanging out. No discussions other
than how we both acted like idiots. Fair enough right?
Any advice while being the same laid back person? I don't want to come
across as all of a sudden having a different agenda. I just want to maybe
find out what she is thinking with out revealing myself outright. Does that
make sense?  Each situation has different dynamics and this one is no
exception. What would you do?


(Commenting on: "News for you. You were rejected, buddy. But it was not
your total responsibility that it happened. I believe that there is a
difference between taking things personally and responsibility. Rejection
is always personal but whether it's your responsibility is more based on
the length of time you spent with her.
(Commenting on: "So don't be a wallflower and make the same mistake as I
made. It took me four years to find out that rejection is something that
doesn't have to exist. So there is no need to be afraid to approach a girl.
Sure you'll feel a bit nervous in approaching a girl, but to me that's
excitement, not fear"):
Rejection does exist. It's the meaning you attach to it that makes a

It's been a long time since someone with so many limiting beliefs as this
has posted on this list. I just had to say something.  I think this whole
post shows Mark's belief that WOMEN are the prize and not the PUA.  I
wonder if you have studied any seduction techniques whatsoever or are you
just making this up?  When I walk up to a woman, I am not asking her for
anything. I am having a friendly conversation, like I would with a man. If
I walk up to a man and ask for the time and he says, "Fuck off, asshole,"
did I get rejected or did I just find out that this is an asshole who I
don't want to get to know?
If an HB is going to get me attracted to her, she will have to show me some
serious personality because, unlike Mark, looks aren't enough for me.  If
you walk up to what you call an HB10 and try an opener on her, and she's
got a 20 IQ, and can't understand what you're asking, do you still get
One of Ross's main teachings is that an SSer never gets rejected, he just
finds out whether a women has good taste.  It might seem arrogant, but it
is the truth. If a woman is not doing anything, a man comes up to talk to
her with a friendly disposition, and she acts like a bitch...then he walks
away. He has rejected her because she is a close minded bitch, and
therefore there is no point in talking to her. She fucked herself up
because of her decadent, self-centered attitude.  Your comment about Brad
Pitt shows that you could know more about women and their attraction
process. If Brad Pitt had the limiting beliefs that you had, then he might
not be getting laid too much himself.
Women aren't dependent upon physical looks for attraction the way men are.
They are attracted first by emotions, not body parts.
If I walk up to an ugly wart hog chick, and tell her she has a nice purse,
and she acts like a bitch, would you say that I got rejected?  I wasn't
requesting anything, just making an observation. When I walk away, I have
rejected her for being a closed minded sheep.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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