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"I call this my “Have you seen Thomas opener"

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I call this my “Have you seen Thomas opener
12/8/01 11:03:40 AM Eastern Standard Time


Major Mark's seminar schedule for 2002 will include:
July 26-28 Montreal no topic yet
Oct. 18-20 Austin Texas no topic yet

Cliff's Comment:  Let's look for more seminars in Montreal in 2002, right,

(NightLight9 comments):
I've been thinking on this a bit.
It seems like "Your right to say yes" has a nice ambiguity in it. That much
should make reading this email worth it. In screwing around with this, this
is what I came up with.
OK this sentence has a ton of NLP in it:
You don't have to say yes, but keep in your mind, your right to say yes.
I'm actually thinking this is more powerful to actually use the negative
(this goes against what I know of NLP):
You don't have to say no, but keep in your mind, your right to say yes.
But I think this is best but is even worse from an NLP standpoint.
Keep in mind, your right to say yes, if you want later you can always say no
That's the best I've come up with so far.
Keep in mind, your right to say yes, and if you say yes now, you always have
options later.
I think other principles of persuasion are very important here:  No pressure
being the most important.


Brenton (commenting on the above):
"You don't have to say yes, but keep in your mind, your right to say yes,
or not"
Give them the illusion of choice - upturn the tonality of the 'or not',
embed the rest of the commands.
'You always have options later' is vague, and causes them to resolve it -
hence they have to generate the 'no' option themselves. I think that's
worse than explicitly stating it in the sentence (making sure not to make
it a command).


See Tom Leykis live stream is at:


(Commenting on Joseph:  "One of Ross's main teachings is that an SSer never
gets rejected, he just finds out whether a women has good taste. It might
seem arrogant, but it is
the truth."):

This attitude may help you, but it is certainly not the truth. Maybe she is
a bitch, but maybe you got a predictable response from a woman who isn't a
bitch. Thinking to yourself that all the ones that didn't respond well are
bitches keeps your focus on your good responses, which may be plentiful
enough. But I think the process of improvement works better when you stay
cool and objective.


Ross: (Commenting on: "I thought what the fuck, out with it..."I teach guys
how to hypnotize and seduce women.""):

Hey! That's MY line!

(Commenting on: "Anyway, I did offer one example while we were killing
time...Ross'  "caterpillar to a butterfly" story (I think that's on the
Masters Series, it's great). Jamie..."Wow"!"):
Originally, Dan Scorpio came up with that story. I just improved it.

(Commenting on: "I had just learned Jamie was a very good subject, she
dropped. I knew I  would have to stay away from anything sexual or
overt...this was sensitive territory and Jamie was going to have to connect
her own dots. So I launched into a series of random but connected classics
like the "hot guy", "romantic hero," etc. The clock was ticking and I had
about thirty minutes to kickoff and needed to secure my invitation so I
worked in my version of  Ross' Blammo (which is still deadly) and I treated
it all as an innocent passing of personal philosophy and shit that I had
read about...Jamie was hooked."):

Blammo IS mine. I've got a simplified, modified version that works great!

(Commenting on: ""Oh, damn, look at the time...I've got to get home so I
can catch the second half of the game." Jamie says "I've got a better idea,
why don't you come over to my house and we can watch it together, besides
you haven't seen the house yet.""):

Fascinating when the mechanisms they used to AVOID you become the
mechanisms they use to get WITH you!

(Commenting on: "I mulled that over for SO......."Rodeo Pattern"....I think
we both came in our pants."):

I don't know the "Rodeo Pattern". Care to share it?

(Commenting on: "While I had her on the ropes, I didn't hesitate to launch
into the forbidden "duality of women" pattern followed with several
hyper-empiric "demonstrations"...she was in paradise."):

Yeah, that Hyper-empiria just about always does the trick.

(Commenting on: "...and we missed the fucking game..."):

The fucking game? I would say you played and WON "the fucking game". Ha ha
ha. Nice ambiguity.

(Commenting on: "I suggest to all you white pale ghosts get a nice tan and
see what happens.  Take time to find a good bed and lotion and undoubtedly
you'll see your responses fly."):

My understanding is, at least here in Southern Cal, it's a great way to MEET
hot women, because they tend to frequent the tanning salons.


Where is a good place to meet wings besides that push board or whatever.  I
mean where do cool twenty something dudes hang out besides bars and
work?  I am 26.

Cliff's Comment:  Where to hang?  Good question.  A friend of mine recently
separated from his wife (dated 3 years, married 12 years) and he's been
getting laid a lot since then (I guess about a minimum of 4 times a week
since he broke up about 3-4 weeks ago) and I see the key with him as being
that he has a very easy going manner, always joking and he's very
flirtatious.  He always flirted while he was married but didn't follow up
on it, but now it's a different story.  He told me last night he could get
laid every night if he wanted, no problem.  The women are after him.  While
he's a reasonably good looking guy, I am certain it is his attitude with
everyone he meets that makes the difference.  He doesn't go to bars -- in
fact, he works until 8 pm most nights.  He calls me once in awhile after
work and I join him for dinner (I have usually eaten by then, but he likes
a place near me and if I have nothing on I join him).  Last night he
flirted and joked around with his waitress and she gave him her number
eagerly -- and all it really was was his kidding around attitude.

To be more specific to your question, I also have a bad habit of
frequenting the same places and not opening my eyes to the thousands of
other places to go in a big city.  I remember when some guys came in last
summer here and they looked at every place as a new adventure, a place
where they wanted to see what was going on.  I think you just need to open
your eyes as to where to go and to notice everyone who crosses your path as
being a possible entree to themselves or other people.


Mark B.:  (Commenting on: "I'm curious, what age group are you targeting
with your ultra-direct
approaches? Do you find that they work better with older/younger girls? It
seems that it might be a little too intense for the younger ones, 18-23 or
so, mainly the part where you say you want to have passionate nights with
them, etc. Maybe I'm wrong?"):

MB: I go for women 25 and older. I have no patience for under 25. Too flaky,
too inexperienced, and insecure in general but not always. Direct works no
matter what age group, I believe. The main issue is the general flightiness
of younger women that occurs regardless of what approach you use.

(Commenting on: "Also, would you do that outside of a bar/club setting? I
ask because this
approach really caught my attention, it's something that I've been wishing
I was able to do but haven't really attempted yet."):
MB: Anywhere is fair game except where it can hurt you such as an office
setting where you work. I never "dip my pen in company ink," so to speak. But
malls, sidewalks, bars, clubs, stores anywhere is fair game.

(Commenting on: "I've always thought to myself, "Fuck wouldn't it be sweet
if I could go up
to women, no bullshiting, no patterns, no playing hard to get, and just say
whatever the hell I want, tell them I'm attracted to them and see what
happens..." But this is very against what most PUA's are teaching here, and
what I've been taught."):

MB: My question is what is stopping you from just saying what is on your
mind? My search in life has always been for the truth. I attempt to get to the
truth by being direct and to the point. Being this way was borne out of
frustration with not getting anywhere by trying these so called techniques.
To me these so called "techniques" are created in a fashion designed to
"better deceive and mislead a woman to thinking you want something else and
are about something else while really wanting and being about something
else" such as wanting to fuck her but pretending you are cocky, funny, etc.
Out of frustration I said "What if I was to just say what I wanted with no
bullshit?"  I did and it worked over and over again.

(Commenting on: "Sis recommends just casually introducing yourself, making
her laugh and
being cocky, and acting disinterested and even aloof, creating a little
doubt in her mind that you might not really be interested in her. Mystery's
method seems somewhat similar, using negs and creating social proof and
being entertaining using a rehearsed routine. Your strategy seems so simple
I almost can't believe you're getting away with saying the shit you're

MB: It's extremely simple. I say "Hello. My name is Mark. I could not help
but notice you. I think you are stunning." I get her response and then I
say "I wanted
to let you know that you are hot, I find you attractive and it would be
great if we had a chance to get to know each other for the possibility of
having great times together and perhaps many nights filled with passion."
That's it. Then she will say "I have a boyfriend," " I am married," "It takes
time for me before I sleep with someone," "I need to be romanced or know
someone better," blah blah blah......
The basis for this approach is that it fishes out the potential from the non
potential right away. This approach virtually guarantees that you will
encounter resistance but that is the whole point for any resistance she
gives you is a way of her telling you what issues you need to address before
she sleeps with you or agrees to go out. Most men think that resistance or
objections equals rejection and that is why they avoid being upfront in
favour of being more subtle, i.e. cocky, funny patterns, etc. To me when a
woman says "I need to get to know a guy better," she is telling me what it
will take to get her and more importantly she is not saying "fuck off,
asshole" which is rejection. Objections and raising of concerns are not
rejection. Most people, though, see any signs of resistance as rejection which
it is not. This, I believe, is where most people draw the wrong conclusions
favour being anything but upfront in the hope of warming her up to you thus
avoiding any resistance later.  In my way, you still have to warm her up but
you do it after you make your intent known and this is where I can be cocky,
funny, use patterns, etc. The advantage to my method is that at least you know
what you need to do and you also know whether she is open to your initial
suggestion - this is the key for you do not want to waste your time if she is
not at all interested or never would be no matter what you do.

(Commenting on: "Even though it makes perfect sense because you're just
being completely
honest and hiding nothing. I'd like to get some opinions from you and other
people here on why this approach can work when there is no mystery, she
already knows you are into her, there's no game playing, no playing hard to
get, versus other PUA methods that kind of tap-dance around your true

MB: We can theorize all we want but all women I have ever slept with or
dated I made my intent known right away and then worked from that base. With
ones I got nowhere I took my time and hid my true interest only to get shot
down while revealing it later.
Examples - I meet and slept with a woman within 1 week after meeting her on
the street by telling her I want "many nights filled with passion" within 5
minutes of meeting her, she tells me she usually waits about 4-6 weeks
before she sleeps with a guy. I sleep with a woman within two hours of our
first date when after dinner she says what do you want to do now and I say
"fuck your brains out."  I meet a woman who says she does not like talking
about sex and that is not the way to get her to sleep with me - I mention
nothing about sex but just start kissing her and undressing her, I sleep
with her the same day.  I met an hot exotic dancer feature Ms. Nude Pageant
winner and even before she has a chance to say anything I tell her I want to
get to know her and take her out. Two weeks later we go away for a crazy
weekend and on and on............

Cliff's Comment:  This has always been the case for me as well.  If I am
not clear about my intentions, I am almost never successful.  Letting a
woman know where you are coming from (and it's not like you are telling a
hot looking woman something she doesn't already know) puts her at ease.  I
am sure most of us have had the experience of being indirect and getting
suspicious looks from them -- I believe that's deserved when you aren't
clear.  On the other hand, I know guys who only use the indirect approach
and do very, very well.  You have to use what works for you.

(Mark B. commenting on: "Joseph: It's been a long time since someone with
so many limiting beliefs as this has posted on this list. I just had to say

MB: When I hear guys make comments like this I laugh because I know that
your opinions are based on what you read and heard about and not real life
and real world experience.

(Commenting on: "I think this whole post shows Mark's belief that WOMEN are
the prize and
not the PUA. I wonder if you have studied any seduction techniques
whatsoever or are you
just making this up?"):

MB: Yes, to me women are the prize. And why not? Unless you are a model,
wealthy beyond belief, or a celebrity you will have to work to get her. I
bought SS (ask Ross), Double Your Dating», & Doc Love's "The System."  I
keep in
touch with Dennis Neder almost daily and read his book Being a Man in a
Woman's World, as well as How to Succeed with Women by Louis and Copeland
and the one by Anthony Badalamenti as well as How to Make Anyone Fall in
Love with You (Leill Loundes), Secrets of Seduction, Dating in the 90's and
others. I check and everyday and have about 7 years of
experience and about 100 women under my belt. So there. But it comes down to
being direct, open and realizing that you cannot be everything to everyone
and that is fine.

(Commenting on: "When I walk up to a woman, I am not asking her for
anything. I am having a
friendly conversation, like I would with a man. If I walk up to a man and
ask for the time and he says, "Fuck off, asshole," did I get rejected or
did I just find out that this is an asshole who I don't want to get to know?"):

MB: You were rejected and you found out he was an asshole. Let's stop
kidding ourselves. But it was mostly his problem due to his bad attitude and
not yours.

(Commenting on: "If an HB is going to get me attracted to her, she will
have to show me some
serious personality because looks aren't enough for me."):

MB: Looks do matter to me as well as her personality. I would rather though
sleep with a HB10 with a poor attitude than a HB7 with a great one -
unfair? Maybe. Do I care? No.

(Commenting on: "If you walk up to what you call an HB10 and try an opener
on her, and she's
got a 20 IQ, and can't understand what you're asking, do you still get

MB: Well, what if you walk up to a hot babe and she has an IQ of 31.264?
You say hello and she walks off but you chase her and tell her you have an
IQ of 124.  She stops and chats and you go for her number but she takes
yours.  She says she is busy and has a boyfriend and says she does not have
time but smiles then runs off and says she will call you - did you get
rejected? What nonsense and who cares? Bottom lines is it went nowhere.

(Commenting on: "One of Ross's main teachings is that an SSer never gets
rejected, he just
finds out whether a women has good taste. It might seem arrogant, but it
is the truth. If a woman is not doing anything, a man comes up to talk to
her with a friendly disposition, and she acts like a bitch...then he walks
away. He has rejected her because she is a close minded bitch, and
therefore there is no point in talking to her. She fucked herself up
because of her decadent, self-centered attitude.") :

MB: To me that is the wrong attitude to live with. How do you
know she lost out? Good taste in what? You? Maybe you are not her type, or
she does not like your hair, or she has a boyfriend or is not into men and
being with you would not serve her purpose at the moment. Perhaps being with
you would set her back in her mind. You are not the answer to every woman's
wish and desire as you might want to believe, only to some women. Ross wants
you to imbed that into your head in order to make you feel better about
yourself but it does not address the reality that you are not the answer to
every woman's wish and neither am I. The moment you accept that you can feel
better about being rejected is the moment when you stop taking it
personally. In
fact, I believe that it's better to assume you are not the answer to every
woman's needs, only a select few. This is the truth and when things do not go
your way it's easier to accept that you were not what she was looking for.
If there was no such thing as rejection we would not have invented a word
for it. I suggest you consider having a little humility.

(Commenting on: "Your comment about Brad Pitt shows that you could know
more about women and their attraction process. If Brad Pitt had the
limiting beliefs that you
had, then he might not be getting laid too much himself. Women aren't
dependent upon physical
looks for attraction the way men are."):

MB: What you are saying makes no sense to me. When was the last time a
woman said
"He is so fat and ugly but I feel so good around him that I just want to
jump his bones every time I see him."  To me it's a package of the physical as
well as the emotional just like you would not sleep with a HB10 if she was a
total bitch. A guy in the office has a brother who comes to visit him once a
month who looks like Alec Baldwin. Whenever he comes in all the women here,
about 6 of them all cream their pants and all admit they would sleep with
him right away. He does not validate their feelings but just looks hot and
they want him.

(Commenting on: "They are attracted first by emotions, not body parts. If I
walk up to an
ugly wart hog chick, and tell her she has a nice purse, and she acts like a
bitch, would you say that I got rejected? I wasn't requesting anything,
just making an observation. When I walk away, I have rejected her for being
a closed minded sheep."):

MB: Can you honestly say that when a woman meets you for the first time for
a few minutes and has no attraction whatsoever you can keep her engaged long
enough to develop an emotional connection and that would be enough? NO women
I have ever met has admitted that she slept with a guy she was not at least
a bit attracted to in some way as long as she was sober. What if you say to
her "I am great at validating your emotional needs so date me. Here this is
how I can make you feel" - nonsense. There was someone who posted recently
who said he was at a club and all the hottest women went home with men of
their choosing at the end of the night. Do you think that was a result of
them developing a deep emotional connection at the club? They are attracted
by the emotions they feel as a result of them feeling good about being
attracted to you. Sorry to burst your bubble but all things being equal the
more attractive guy will get laid more often than the less attractive guy if
they used the same techniques equally well. But at the same time you do need
to address a woman's needs emotionally to keep her around.
I suggest you get some more real life experience as opposed to what you get
books and courses.


OK more on (near) kiss openers. I did some more work on this weekend
hanging with MTL_PUA. I would guess I kissed about 15 girls in the 4 days
we hung out. Quite a few with only a sentence intro. Still not quite a
kiss opener (which I and MTL_PUA have done). These were in bars and in the
street after the bars let out. MTL_PUA kind of helped me figure out the
Walk up with a big smile.
Invade her space.
Talk slowly and confidently
Keep invading her space until you are close enough to put your arms around
If they look you in the eye, it's over.
Lean in.
Pick her up off the ground.
Turn her a little in the air.
Put her down.
Kiss her...
The talking part doesn't matter too much about what, but be very sexual in
your tone and don't use 'lines'. You are making a connection, but the
connection is non-verbal. The talking is more just an excuse for the
physical communication going on underneath.
The picking up off the ground is important, I don't do it every time, but
more often than not and some situations I believe it's required (thanks
MTL_PUA for picking up on this and field testing it, BTW).  My theory is that
doing this causes her to see you as very masculine and breaks the touching
barrier in a less sexual way than the direct kiss. (Note: I think that in
some case you could even come out and say you have beautiful breasts and
touch them after this with no kiss, but I haven't field tested this since I
like kissing so much and I know it will fail more than kissing which has
never failed after I've picked them up).
Two examples (that have some talking because otherwise it reads just like
what I wrote above).
1) Walk up to a girl in the street.
NL9: In fake French/Italian accent: "Have you seen Thomas?" (accent is
important) (I call this my "Have you seen Thomas opener")
HBInnocent: No
NL9: He was right here...
else, this misdirection takes some of the pressure of my approach off>
HBInnocent: Really...
NL9: Uh, huh, but I don't see him now.
watching> What kind of pizza is that?
HBInnocent: It's from over there.
NL9: Looks good.
HBInnocent: Here have some.

NL9: I wonder where he is. That's good pizza.
continue natural interaction...>

HBInnocent: What happened to your accent?
NL9 Which one?

shirt and rubs back>
Kiss her again
NL9: That's a cute sweatshirt, I like it
not really having conversation>

HBInnocent: I've heard about these 6th Street stories.
NL9: Really
shirt down some (the draft must have been pretty cold :-)>

up :-)>
2) walk up to girl in street (lots of people around)
NL9: That's a cool cowboy shirt. I love the buttons
HBCowgirl: Thanks

NL9: Reminds me of one I had when I was 12. Used wear it all the time with
this suede jacket that had tassels all over it.
HBCowgirl: Really...

NL9: I'm going to spin you.
HBCowgirl: What...
NL9: I'm going to spin you...

Finally friends drag her away.

More NightLight9 comments:  New transition phrase (transition phrases move
from casual fluff, to personal conversation and are key in many PU's for
turning the corner). Use
this in bars in the city.
I call it the "Suburbs Transition:"
NL9: Intro
NL9: Fluff question(s) (not more than two)
HB: fluff answers

NL9:  We really shouldn't talk right now.
mean, we'll end up talking... and really liking in each other... Hanging
out all the time... Then we'll end up falling in love. The sex will be
great and before you know it we'll have 2.3 kids... move to the suburbs...
And who the hell wants to live in the suburbs."
(Note how quickly sex has come up, but in a very non-threatening way. She
would have to make a real effort to bring it back to the convo, but it's out
there in her head and your conversation. You've demonstrated that you
aren't afraid of sex, but you aren't crass or starved for it, just
comfortable with it as a natural progression of a relationship)
She'll comment on this transition in some way (after she laughs) and now you
can talk about personal stuff.

(Nightlight9 commenting on: "Ciz: Anyways, I have managed
to keep her intrigued with me by her noticing I am getting all these other
girls, but have not managed to convince her to go out with me.
What to do???"):
Two things: tell her it's great that you have such a good friendship, and
that you are lucky you don't fool around. Tell her you used to think she
was hot, but you're glad that for whatever reason you never hooked up.
Then tell her you love spending time with the women you date, and most of
them are interesting but you'd really like to meet the right girl who could
be an honest and true girl friend. Don't mention your fidelity (just the
potential GF's), it's implied by you saying you want a "honest and true" GF,
and it seems contrived if you mention it unless they ask, which she likely
will do. If she does, say "Oh, when I've had a girlfriend in the past it's
just not been an issue. When I date one girl it's because I wanted to date
THAT one girl... That's the whole reason I chose to get into the
relationship in the first place."

(NightLight9 commenting on: "Justin: How do you learn to dance (I have no
rhythm); is watching MTV/VH1 good or are there any good Internet resources?"):

Watch BET. Video tape the best rap videos and practice in front of a
mirror. Start with the foot work, then add the arms. Keep in mind that
dancing is constantly evolving, so if you are going to go dance at hard core
hip hop clubs (ones where 90% of the people there are black), you will have
to keep up with it. If you just want to go dance at normal dance clubs
though, just get somewhere between rave dance and hiphop and you'll be fine.

(Nightlight9 Commenting on: "Stephane: Whenever I model people,
I always love it when they talk about their abilities and use the word
"JUST" before they describe the skill set. "I could JUST tell". Now my job
is to take the verb 'tell' and get them to
elaborate, but it's gonna be a challenge because they put the word 'just'
in front of it. When they say 'just', it usually means they are at the
limit of their world model and will fight me tooth and nail when I ask,
"How specifically do you engage in the activity of being able to 'just
tell' if she will be receptive to the kiss opener?""):

NightLight9 responds: It gets worse, I'm highly kinesthetic with trailing
auditory, finally to visual, so pretty much everything "just happens" for me
:-). Anyway, here are some other things that made me think she would be
approachable with a direct kiss. She was with a couple that was getting
pretty kino. She looked like she was having a lot of fun and would be good
natured (I'm not going to kiss open someone with a scowl on their face :-).
She was siting in a very open posture (knees turned out from the table,
etc.). She was easy to walk up to (the mechanics of this approach demand a
clear, unencumbered path and for the most part, girls don't "just end up"
that way
either). She was hot. Hot (happy) chicks seem to be the most receptive to
crazy stuff. (Like my bridal party approach, which is always a VERY
aggressive kiss opener and where the idea of the general kiss opener came
from.)  She was really alert (this turns me on, and my state is obviously
important). I do agree there is huge subconscious part of all interaction,
and I think this girl and I would have connected if we had met in a bus
station and talked.

(Nightlight9 Commenting on: "Stephane continued: Now, when you ask them,
they will give you the answer non-verbally within the first second, and the
conscious, verbal answer will be
meaningless. Because the skill of 'just being able to tell' is most likely
completely unconscious. Too bad I'm not there to make you cough it

NightLight9 responds: Next time I'm in Montreal, I'd love to hang out. Your
stuff is great, and I know I would learn a ton ( I'm
definitely an excellent modeler, definitely, definitely an excellent

NightLight9 asks Stephane: When you said,"You need to learn something."
"You need to learn how to accept a compliment -- it's a sign of maturity."
tonality/attitude did you use?

NightLight9 commenting on Mark B.'s comments on tanning. I agree that
tanning is a great technique. It makes you LOOK healthier with a better
complexion and more rugged. (worked for JFK...) It works just as well for
women. Don't over do it, but I think it's a great tool. If you ever
watched the sex in the 90's series on MTV, some of it was actually pretty
useful. They had these two brothers who were total dogs, fucking chicks
left and right in their shag van. Total Players, telling women they were
Part of Bon Jovi, etc. Anyway, one of the first things that they said to
this AFC was "You need to be tanned all year round."

(NightLight9 commenting on: "I just want to maybe find out what she is
thinking with out revealing myself outright. Does that make sense? Each
situation has different dynamics and this one is no exception. What would
you do?"):

You just want to find out what she's thinking??? She's currently NOT
INTERESTED. (I think you know that, but...) If she were interested you'd
be fucking her right now, instead of posting . You need to change that.
Have done any value elicitation? That's the first thing. "So what do you
look for in man?" It sounds like you may be too far in LJBF land at this

(NightLight9 commenting on: "Joseph: It's been a long time since someone with
so many limiting beliefs as this has posted on this list. I just had to say
something. I think this whole post shows Mark's belief that WOMEN are the
prize and not the PUA.
[snip] If Brad Pitt had the limiting beliefs that you had, then he might
not be getting laid too much himself."):

NightLight9 responds: Mark claims to get great results. If you don't
believe them, say so, but to attack his methods, based on his results, seems
out of place to me. He offers his view point which differs strongly from
Ross's. That doesn't make it wrong.

(NightLight9 commenting on: :"Joseph: Women aren't dependent upon
physical looks for attraction the way men are. They are attracted first by
emotions, not body parts. If I walk up to an ugly wart hog chick, and tell
her she has a nice purse,
and she acts like a bitch, would you say that I got rejected? I wasn't
requesting anything, just making an observation. When I walk away, I have
rejected her for being a closed minded sheep."):

NightLight9 responds: What does being a sheep have to do with any of this?
(Unless you think all people who don't like you are just trying to fit
in...) To the point, yes she rejected your offer of friendly conversation.
It's fine to frame this as something different because that's a useful
model for
you, but that doesn't mean someone can't frame it as you being rejected
(which most English speakers would consider to be correct). Then you
rejected her offer of having a conversation where she acts in a way you
don't like. You both rejected each other. You can frame that as just you
rejecting it.   Fine, live in that model but remember being "crazy" just
means that you disagree with most people in a way that they don't accept as
viable. Most people would consider your idea of rejection to vary from the
accepted definition, and I'm not sure they would say you were any more than
deluded though :-)  The point is we use models that help. Mark's model seems
to work great FOR HIM.


I noticed a couple of people here asking about how to improve their dancing
If you are working in a bar/disco environment then it is essential that you
do not jerk around like some busted spring whenever you hit the dance
floor. Even for hi energy techno, faster is better than slower if your
middle name is not Nureyev.
First of all, sign up for a short Tai Chi class. Not only might the teacher
be a slinky Chinese babe, but the movements you learn will improve your
dance floor technique by 100 percent. It will improve your rhythm, your
flow and your confidence. There are only 48 different movements to remember
and many translate very well into disco territory.
I had an Australian teacher when I was living in the West who looked a bit
like Yanni in a Chinese robe. One of the first things he told us was that
Tai Chi would automatically affect our dancing skills as a welcome side
effect. And he was very right. Now that I live in the East, I no longer
study any martial arts but I constantly get comments on my great dancing.
The person that you dance with also makes a difference. Occasionally you
will find somebody with whom you naturally click in a choreographic rather
than romantic way. Dance with these people whenever you get a chance.
Always try to have a few extra moves tucked away for when there is an
opportunity to dance on the bar or the tables. Lots of eyes will be on you
and this is a great time to impress. But once the rugby team starts
dropping their drawers to show off their fat hairy cracks, it's definitely
time to get out of Dodge.


Any one ever seen this before? Looks like some hyped up BS to me...

"Seduce Any Woman You Desire in Less Than An Hour...Guaranteed!"
"I call it, "The Lazy Man's Way to Seduce Single Women." All you do is
simply pop in one
of our Subliminal Seduction cassettes and she thinks she's only hearing
music, but she's being sexually programmed and stimulated to uncontrollably
want to make mad passionate love to you, her subconscious mind is saturated
with romantic and erotic thoughts only of you, and she wants to make the
first move. "


Franky the Tux:
(Commenting on: "Justin: The other day, I entered a hard body contest on
college night in a local club; loads of fun - something I'll definitely do
it again. However, seeing the winner (and proud wearer of a pink thong) do
his thing made me realize that my groove left something to be desired. Does
anyone have any experience with this kind of thing? How do you learn to
dance (I have no rhythm); is watching MTV/VH1 good or are there any good
Internet resources?"):
About a year and a half ago I moved to a new city where I didn't know anybody.
I also didn't know how to dance a lick except "freestyle" (and maybe the
so I decided to do something about it. Someone suggested I check out a local
country music club. I'm from the northeast, I don't do country but I thought,
what the hell. One of the things that impressed me was that so many of the
dances they did were couple dances - swing, waltz, cha cha, two step. You got
to hold a girl in your arms and you could TALK to her while you were dancing.
The line dances looked fun, too, and if you were intimidated by the thought of
taking a lady out on the floor you could first do the line dances and get used
to your body moving to a rhythm. Since everybody is doing the same move you
don't have to worry about not being as good or cool looking as everyone else.
So that's what I did first and then moved to the couples' dances. The club
offered lessons on Wed. and Thur. (most have a similar arrangement) and
they were
friendly to new people (good for business). After I was comfortable with line
dancing, I moved on the couples' lessons.
Taking lessons is a great way to meet girls. Even if you're partnered up with
someone ugly/old, they have friends/daughters and if you play your cards right
you get introduced to them. Girls like a man that is a good dancer (I'm
talking specifically about couples' dancing) who can take them out and lead
into doing good feeling things with their bodies. The chance to tie this in
with SS/NLP should be obvious.
Now I consider myself to be an intermediate dancer and it's easier to get
girls to
dance with you if they've seen how good you are out on the floor with someone
else. Learning to dance swing at the country club comes in handy at clubs that
play oldies from the 50's and 60's (the songs are old, but not necessarily the
clientele). The basics in dancing are the same no matter what style you do. So
if you get the basics down at a country club and get used to moving your
body, you
can transfer that to R&B, techno pop, Latin, or whatever you're into. So
that's my advice - find a country music club, learn the line dances to start
with, then move on to the couples' dances, then transfer some of that skill to
other forms of music. Once you learn one dance, the learning curve keeps
getting shorter for each subsequent dance since a lot of the moves are the
same, it's only the basic steps that are different.


(Commenting on: Cliff: I tend to go into places and, if asked, I respond
that I
am waiting for some friends to show up (which is true, only these are
friends I haven't met yet...). If you end up spending a lot of time with
someone or a group and they ask you later, it is really not unusual that
people changed their plans and ended up not coming to a club as they were
supposed to. This also goes back to David's rule #1 "who cares what they
think?" It really shouldn't make any difference to you."):

NO WAY! Cliff, remember your "I'm sorry we didn't get into heavy kino the
day before yesterday and after all it was a lame meeting" supplicating

Cliff's Comment:  Sorry, I don't remember that!

TGB Continues: You got off course here, again. At least in regard to Souris'
question. Didn't he say he is not completely comfortable being alone in the

Cliff's Comment:  I think this uncomfortableness stems from his caring what
someone else thinks, otherwise it wouldn't make a difference.

TGB Continues:  He did, so you would see an uncomfy guy. No matter what
they think,
when they are for some time with someone who doesn't feel comfortable when
alone left alone by his friends, this is not what we call social proof. It
just isn't.

Cliff's Comment:  Social proof is not necessary in every situation.  Most
of the time, personally, I just go up to a woman and don't even think about
the fact that I may have no support system in place that offered validation
in the immediate circumstances.

TGB Continues: OK Cliffy, you go places and tell people you are waiting for
people to
show up - apologies for my harsh tone but a much better reply to a lonely
question is that he enjoys meeting new people. You know there are your
friends and you really, really like them but sometimes you've got to go
out and meet someone you don't know. Some people are frightened even by the
thought, some by experience but I enjoy to conquer the fear I carry with me
when I reach out for someone I am not THAT familiar with but can
become.  This is
true and almost a pattern.

(TGB Commenting on: "Mark B: P.S. I got to give you brownie points for trying.
P.S.S. Where to you want to meet for lunch?
RP" See, she did not hide or get upset or try to bite my head off or take
offence to what I said but actually appreciated the offer....."):

She is in a situation of accumulating force for future fights with her
husband, I believe. You just got some brownie points. Can you spell
b-r-o-w-n-i-e p-o-i-n-t?
P.S.: Do you know her husband? Does she have a phone line of her own?

(Commenting on: "Ciz: anyone have good NLP/SS messages
appropriate to leave on an answering machine of a girl who lives with her

Anything that shows warmth, wit and compassion.  By the way, I got your
photo finished and you look like Naomi Campbell.

(Commenting on: "Wouldn't you like to know. How many guys do you have sex
with in a week.?'" She said none, and when asked per month, she said none

You ask the same complex question twice? Which week do you mean?

(Commenting on: "I even was talking to her on the phone once and used this
command, "You know, it's interesting, these girls out there just want to
use me for sex, Lacey."):

It seems not to be this easy with her? Do you say sex on the phone? I
suggest you get in deeper by starting softer. Try to get her in your bed for
a massage :-)  Maybe she's just not the kind who enjoys being
hand-tortured. You know, man, there are folks who just can't relax and let
bliss happen for as long as they like.
You have little rapport.

(Commenting on: "...'just tell' if she will be receptive to the kiss
opener? - If you ask if she
is alone her reply is "I'm waiting for some friends," she avoids eye contact
and plays with the black straw in her Molotov. Her perfume smells
unbelievable. She wears a tight fitting HIM top and has polished
fingernails. I won't tell you everything. But another hint: you saw her last

This is pretty basic stuff, but I know that for me fear of rejection has
been my #1 challenge that has kept me from moving forward.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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