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"She would send her husband out to Chuck E Cheese"

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She would send her husband out to Chuck E Cheese
12/11/01 5:40:21 PM Eastern Standard Time


It would be great if you could give my site a review in your newsletter at

Cliff's Comment:  I haven't had time to do more than visit the site, but it
looks like a lot of fun and there's a lot of stuff relating to seduction
there.  Someone else should visit it and give us a more detailed review.


Mark B.:
Very few actually admit to having a borefriend. If there is another guy in
the picture they usually downplay his role and say something like "Oh, there
is this guy but we are not serious or anything" which means she is serious
and wants to let me know there is someone else but wants to underplay his
role in order to keep the door open for herself. Married women tend to be
more up front about being married. When they say they have one, I do the
following. I say "I am not interested in your husbore or borefriend. I am
interested in you, getting to know you and giving you all the fun times and
great passionate nights that you can imagine."  If she says "Do you want to
be my boyfriend?" which they do a lot, I say "As long as he is in the picture
our relationship can only be sexual. He has to leave before we can discuss
anything else."  If they say they are not open to it, I say "Here is my
number. My offer stands. When you are open to exploring having your needs
fulfilled as a woman you can feel free to call me."  Then I leave her alone.
When they give me an opening, I try to keep the focus away from the other guy
and on her and our potential together. I try not to put him down or play
him up but ignore him completely. After all it's her and I that matters here,
not him. I have found that I have been able to appeal to a woman much better
by showing her advantages of being with me while ignoring him instead of
pointing out any
disadvantages of being with him. I also found that if I try to put him down
women tend to get defensive as if I am insulting their ability to make right
decisions and good choices. So the attack on him is a judgement on her
ability to choose, which is a subtle insult and this I try to avoid at all
costs. She will see for herself that I am a better choice as a result of
spending time with me and feeling good about herself with me. So to answer
your question, I destroy him by ignoring him and making her feel good about
being with me so she can see what she is missing by being with him herself
and what she is gaining by being with me.

(Commenting on: "Put all this together and once you have a woman who has
her children and a
settled home life, does this mean that at that point she feels free and is
most likely to indulge in extra-marital activities?"):

MB: In my view, she does not even need to be settled but enticed enough with
an offer of excitement and fulfillment in her life with something of high
value or with something that fulfills something missing in her life.

(Commenting on: "CPowles100:  They say, "He's so cute and sexy that I just
want to jump his bones..." This may be the same fat and ugly guy, but he's
convinced them (and they've
convinced themselves) that he is sexual and desirable."):

MB: I believe this happens because he is really cute and sexy to her even if
not to us and it has to do with the fact that he may be really her type
irrespective of other factors. In other words, if he is fat and ugly and she
is with him, it's because that is what attracts her physically. I seriously
doubt that he can win her over if there is no attraction whatsoever and if
he is not her type purely on the basis of personality or "techniques." Kira
Kenner, a stunning porn star, said in an interview once, that she prefers
men with large beer bellies because she likes the warmth of a big gut and
that is sexy to her. A few
weeks ago I was listening to a radio program which features men who love fat
women, the fatter the better. If men can have those sorts of perverse
attractions why should we assume that some beautiful women would not find
some fat men or men out of the norm of attractiveness equally attractive and
assume that these men were only able to get them on the basis of
personality, patterns etc?

(Commenting on: "A lot of women sleep with guys they aren't attracted to AT
FIRST. But over
time (be it ten minutes or two months), they can become attracted to that
guy. How? They call it magic, chemistry, whatever. But you and I know what
it really is..."):

MB: Yeah, sure. Women, just like men, know whether or not they are
attracted to
someone when they first meet them. Women just tend to not want to give
themselves away too soon by revealing their attraction too early and not
appear slutty or easy. This is why they say it took them time. Women
themselves in their moments of trust have revealed this to me.

(Commenting on: "Furthermore, it sounds like you depend too much on alcohol
as a crutch.
Alcohol just gives a lot of women an excuse to do what they already want to
do deep inside. You can give them that excuse without alcohol."):

MB: You misunderstood. Re-read carefully please. I do not drink and neither do
any women when I am out with them. What I meant was that a drunk woman may
sleep with a man she is not attracted to because she is drunk, nothing else.

(Commenting on: "Again, I see your point here, and overall you are right.
But it is framed
in a self-defeating attitude about looks. Yes, women can be into looks and
giggle over attractive guys. But at the same time, the guy who looks more
interesting, or more dangerous, or more exciting can win out. And we are
only talking about first impressions. We've been through this a million
times here. So try thinking about it this way: at the end of the night, the
women go home not with the guys who are the best looking, but with the guys
who are the least boring. (Plus, who says women go home with the men "of
their choosing." That's what I used to think. I choose women now, and if I
can let them THINK that they chose me, all the better."):

MB: Listen. When I am in my best shape: lean, full, tanned and wear a night
T-shirt women drool over me even though I ignore them and treat them like
crap, mismatch, say little, insult them and they come back for more. When my
shape is off, my tan is gone and I wear bigger clothes no matter how
"interesting, or more dangerous, or more exciting" I am, little happens. It
seems when my look is on I have to do very little and can get virtually
40-50% of the women I approach to come home or get to go out with me.

(Comments on: "Joseph:  I don't get rejected, in the real world, but
sometimes a woman puts me in a category or "dating frame" because she is
ignorant of the opportunity she is
missing. Either she has the wool over her eyes, or she has bad taste.
Either way, she is
the one missing out, because 99.99% of the men on this earth can't do what
I can do with women."):
MB: Once again, you may think you are the best in your own mind but you are
not the answer to every woman's dreams and neither is every other man on
earth the answer to every woman. Some humility please.

(Commenting on: "So they get stuck with a man who doesn't have the power to
give them an
orgasm by anchoring it and giving it to them anytime they want with just a
touch. Who is missing out more? Me or her? There are plenty of other women
who are
smart enough to see the opportunity and take it when it is offered."):

MB: Boy. If you could give a woman an orgasm just by touching her, then why
are you not on National TV or Oprah as the "man who could give women orgasms
just by touching them". It's dangerous to buy into something that easily as
you did into NLP. NLP is an opinion and a way but, like everything in this
world, it's healthy to be skeptical before accepting something as totally and
faithfully as you seem to have done. Personally, I believe you can get a
woman to think of an orgasm by anchoring it and even get her pussy to
pulsate but not actually give her one equal to that of one she was actually
fucking or getting oral. That would require her to be in the right mental
and physiological state as well as relaxed enough to let herself go.
Otherwise, all sex would stop and all we would do is just think about it and
get the same feeling. I believe that only the highest trained Buddhist Yogis
could do that. Could you make yourself cum just by thinking of Pam Anderson
giving you a blow job? Thought so...

Cliff's Comment:  There is a lot of precedent to getting women to have
orgasms quickly and easily via hypnosis.  I suggest you visit David Shade's
site (see below).

(Mark B. commenting on; "In my real world experience I agree that if you
hide your intent, you get shot down. Anytime I have tried to "hook up" with
a woman on some other
pretext besides getting to know her, I have failed. However, I would be
being very dishonest if I used your approach. I guess you can tell just by
looking at a woman that you want to spend
"passionate nights" with her. I can't."):

MB: I suggest you try saying that. Once I had a date with a girl where
before the date she told me that she is sick of men who just want to fuck
her soon when they meet her so I held back. She asked me to call her when I
got home and I did. She thanked me for a great night and I said "You know I
wanted to be respectful to you. I could have said 'let's get a motel room
and fuck each other's brains out' but I did not."  She said "Well you should
have." So it's better to go for it and get shot down then not go for it and
lose an opportunity.

(Commenting on:  "What if she can't string three words together to make a
sentence? What if
she is frigid? What if she has no sense of humour and brings everyone around
her down with her poor energy? I am not being indirect when using SS. I let
a woman know she is attractive on the walk-up by a sincere compliment, but
MY intent is to find out whether she is the kind of person I'd like to get
to know better."):

MB: "I could not help to notice you are a marvel of genetic perfection" is
not the core of NLP. What if she is a drone? You will still find out but after
you've made your intent known, you may end up with the same result but at
least you've made your intent known and maybe you could even get her. I've
had women with an intellect
equal to that of an amoeba but they made for some wild nights, so who cares?
If she is frigid, I challenge her attitude, have fun with it.

(Commenting on: "I don't know I'm going to want to fuck her until we've

MB: Come on, man. You can't be serious here. 100% of all guys I know
including me, know whether or not they would sleep with a woman as soon as
they see her. It's then up to her to turn us off by her attitude, not the
other way around. If I see Halle Berry and she turns out to have an IQ of 20
but is willing to fuck, I am not turning her down. After all, it's her body I
want not her brain when I am fucking her. It seems to me you have bought in
too much into this NLP business at the expense of all other lines of

(Commenting on: "Or if you had more fully learned the SS tapes you bought
and learned the
techniques, you would be the one who can make women hallucinate and have
orgasms just by talking to you. Then you would be much more valuable than a
rock star or millionaire. Even if you didn't show your intent and happen to
just do it for fun with a couple chicks who you were talking with. Then
they would be telling their friends and you would be the guy who sends
women into states of ecstasy just by talking."):

MB: I cannot believe what you just said. "you would be the one who can make
women hallucinate and have orgasms just by talking to you" - show me one guy
who can do this and I'll bow at your feet. NLP is Neuro Linguistic
Programming. Notice how NLP says nothing about women. SS is NLP coupled
with certain beliefs and attitudes about yourself and women, some of which
may or may not be accurate. To me NLP and SS is about getting into the mind
of a woman by talking. I want to get to her body. I accomplish this by
suggesting what I want and can do to her and how I can make her feel thereby
making her long for the real thing. Besides, if you could give women orgasms
by touching them on the wrist, why would they want to fuck you? Tell them
what you want to do to them and what you can do so that they will want to
experience that with you.

(Commenting on: "I have studied most of what you mentioned as well and I
look back and laugh at almost everything but the SS and Sis's stuff. Those
stupid "dating
books" kept me from getting laid quite a few times. Sis's stuff isn't
nearly as powerful, but it gives some great ideas about being funny and
having a fun time with teasing people harmlessly."):

MB: No one but no one has ever suggested in any books I have ever read on
women to be up front with your desires right away. But I once read a book
about a woman who studied the Mustang Ranch, a Vegas brothel. One of her
conclusions suggested that the majority of men who used the services of a
prostitute have real problems with asserting their sexual needs for one
reason or another. So there - make your needs known openly and you will not
need any techniques or books or systems. I believe that a book or system
that suggested being up front would be too short and seem far too
easy to do to make any sales. The more complicated a system of style seems
the "better or more effective" it appears. Also, why would anyone really give
away the real secrets and empower their competition?

(Commenting on: "Precisely. Perhaps our definitions of rejection are
different. In my world,
to get rejected you have to "try out for something." You know, like a job
application or a position on a sports team. I never try out for positions
as HB's lovers or boyfriends. However, I do give them a chance to fill out
an application themselves. If they don't want to take it, I don't consider
that I'm being rejected. If I thought of it like that, then I guess I
would think that every American who isn't attending Harvard has rejected
Harvard's offer to accept students. After all, they DID make the
applications available."):

MB: I think that you equate rejection only to it being verbal. When you walk
up to a woman and you make a comment and she walks away, she is rejecting
your non-verbal intent to talk and on and on. Regarding Harvard, you would
reject them when they made you a direct offer and you declined but to not
take them up on their general offer is not really rejection because there
was no direct contact or intent between either of you specifically. Hence
the word indifference.

(Commenting on: "Well, me too. I usually only give "applications" to HB 9's
and 10's. Doesn't
mean they'll pass."):

MB: Then you must be a real star. I only wish I could walk up to a hot babe
and say "I would like you to impress me so that I could figure out whether I
would want to go out with you" like you can. Teach me how to do this.

(Commenting on: "Yeah, I like that. "It went nowhere." "We didn't connect."
Seems alot better
attitude than saying "She rejected me."):

MB: It's just semantics. Rejection by any other word is still rejection and
really it's not so bad when it happens, laugh at it.

(Commenting on: "Well, then she just needs to stick around to hear the
"Looking vs. Seeing
Pattern." If she doesn't, no sweat, let her stick to "her type" and wait
years between orgasms as the majority of women do. What truly fulfills women
is her "type" of seduction, not her "type" of man. Ross teaches guys how to
elicit her perfect seduction, and then put it into use. Sometimes we have to
show them that this is true, cuz they usually don't know."):

MB: This is where you need to be consistent. First, you say you decide if you
want them, then you say you figure out how "to elicit her perfect seduction".
This is a contradiction. Why not seduce her your way, the male way? Have her
fall into your lap, not the other way around. Say "This is me and what I have
to offer and it would be good for you if you are open to it."

(Commenting on: "Cool, then we can be friends...unless of course her
boyfriend is only
fulfilling a role. After all, my intent wasn't to fuck her, it was to find
out if she was the kind of person I'd like to get to know better."):

MB: Sorry, but my intent is first to fuck her. If she is good then I can
choose to get to know her better, but not backward like you suggest. Many
times I just stuck around until I fucked her and then left because of some
annoying personal attribute. But I am not interested in being friends with
any woman that I want to fuck and she does not.

(Commenting on: "Then it's my job to change her mind and show her the error
of her ways, if
I choose to accept her "application."):
MB: Many times you end up beating a dead horse. If they are not open then
better to move on to more willing participants.

(Commenting on: "But that's my whole point. If I were applying for a job,
and I did my very
best, but someone right next to me got the job instead, I'd feel defeated,
rejected. But if I were just talking to the owner to have fun, and mention
that I'd
like to work in a place like this, then he might not offer me a job for
many reasons, not just because I'm not worthy. Hell, like you said, she
might not be accepting applications, so how can you get rejected if there's
no job to apply for?"):

MB: I think your goal is to avoid rather than gain. If you set your goal to
gain something, then you will stop worrying about rejection. But when your
goal is to avoid rejection, you prevent yourself from being at your best
which guarantees it causing you to try less next and sending you into a
vicious circle of less effort and less results and less effort and less
result and...

(Commenting on: "But haven't you seen beautiful, fun women with Jabba the
Hut look alikes? I
have. I'm sure the fat didn't attract them. It must have been something

MB: Yes I have, read my comments above.

(Commenting on: "Yes, I know a few guys like that. However, there are many
women who won't sleep with guys who are so attractive because he doesn't
realize his own attractiveness and kisses ass when he meets a girl he
really likes. If Brad started developed a crush on Penelope Cruz and acted
silly over her, supplicating and kissing ass, he might not get that pussy."):

MB: Guys supplicate because the woman has no interest in him to begin with so
he supplicates thinking he needs to do more to get her. If she liked Brad Pitt
back and he sent her flowers, kissed her ass and went out of his way, she
love him for it. I believe it's incorrect to think that women do not show
because guys do too much. Women do not show interest because they are just
not interested and many times nothing you can do will turn her around.

(Commenting on: "Well, I'm no master. I hope to be able to one day. I think
that if a woman
is turned off by you on the initial approach, it's pretty tuff to install
attraction. But if she's just neutral, then you can install it if you're
good enough. Unless you smell or something, you're usually at least going
to be neutral in her eyes. Unless of course she is a snob, in which case
who wants her anyway?"):

MB: A friend of mine once met a bunch of women at a club. Shortly after
meeting them he said the word "big tits." They banished him for the night
until the very
end when they asked him to come back with them to their room. He ended up
fucking all
three of them. I know because I met two of these women later and they
verified his
story. He is also a great looking guy. So attraction is there or it's not
and if it's there, (even a tiny bit) your goal is not to fuck up thereby
enhancing it rather than trying to create something which is not there.

(Commenting on: "I think that no one gave them a deep connection at the
club, so they
settled. Doesn't necessarily need to be emotional- the experience needed
depends upon the woman."):

MB: There is overall too much emphasis on deep connection being the sole
factor for getting a woman interested. How about being funny, being natural
and comfortable, attracted to the other person, having a sense of humour, a
common language, common views, etc. These are all important parts that help
create connection.

(Commenting on: "NightLight9 commenting on Mark B.'s comments on
tanning. I agree that tanning is a great technique. It makes you LOOK
healthier with a better complexion and more rugged. (worked for JFK...) It
works just as well for women. Don't over do it, but I think it's a great
Guys: You gotta think long term. Sure tans look great--but there is no such
thing as a healthy tan. Sure JFK and Cary Grant could get away with it back
in the day, we had an ozone layer back then. You should be wearing
sunscreen everyday, even in winter. This year some sun damage showed up on
my cheek, and it looks fucking gross to me. (My dermatologist says that
it doesn't look so bad: "Max you have so little sun damage, your friends
are going to be jealous of you for decades.") I am an insomniac
bookworm/barfly who rarely sees the light of day. In my early 20's I knew
an HB10 who also happened to be a genius. I thought she was weird for
wearing sunscreen every day, even in the winter (and this is in the
ever-cloudy Pacific
Northwest!) Now I realize that she was even smarter than I thought.
Neutrogena has a great sunscreen in stick form: its almost completely
invisible. Don't just think skin cancer, it'll slow down other signs of
aging as well.)
Cliff's Comment: I dated a stripper last year who said that a guy with a
tan was a huge attraction. Those who know me know I am Mr. Pale and stay
out of the sun like poison (it is the number one cause of making people
look older) so while I appreciated the advice, the trade off isn't worth it
to me.)"):

MB: I use the artificial type of sunlight in a tanning bed. For me the
biggest difference I noticed is the large number of unsolicited positive
from women and a huge increase in responsiveness from women I actually pursue
while I am tanned versus when I am not. As far as aging goes I would rather
large for 20 years than average for 50.


Jeff (Commenting on: "GameMaster:
For the following, the names have been changed to protect my ass! I was
visiting the family over Thanksgiving and by the luck of the draw was
seated at a table with my cousin Jamie. I don't think I've ever mentioned
her but every family should have at least one Jamie to stare at when you
run out of boring conversation. She would be your basic movie star package
if she weren't so shy...a 28 year old school teacher and church goer minus
a boyfriend for about 4 years. Anyway, the bloody Mary's were flowing and
the shit was getting pretty deep at my table, Jamie was playing casual
observer without much to say until someone asked me what I was doing in my
spare time! I thought what the fuck, out with it..."I teach guys how to
hypnotize and seduce women." No reaction from anybody at the table (just
more weird shit from me), except Jamie perked right up and said "Tell me
about that". Holeee Shit, the door was standing wide open, and BTW, she
lives in Alabama so it's OK to have impure thoughts about your cousins down
there and I'd been having those thoughts for a while. "Well, it's like
this, it's not classical hypnosis....and nobody can be seduced really
unless that's 'what you want'. It's more like, well do you like to hear
stories, don't you? Well, I like to tell stories, I hear sometimes that
alone can be very hypnotic...the seduction thing is just a by-product, I
guess. At least it's not intended that way, and it would never work on
you....but look, I have to meet my ex-GF Angela down here next week for a
beer and if you'd like a demonstration, I'll pick up the tab. She's your
age and I think you guys would be great friends". The trap was set, Jamie
said she's love to get to get together...all very innocent right - I just
want to introduce her to a "new" friend! Classic plausible deniability.
Anyway, I called her the next day and asked her to meet us for drinks on
Saturday at 5:00....Jamie said it would have to be earlier because the
"Iron Bowl" was on the TV and she wanted to be "at home" for the game.
BINGO! She suggested 2:00 was better for her...I said I'd set it up. She
arrived at exactly 2:00 looking just perfect...pure, virginal, radiant. I
flirted with a twinge of guilt as she ordered a Marguerita. Fluff, fluff,
fluff....I told her about an interesting article I had read about Royal
bloodlines in Europe that extend to the Americas and how they are all
related in some form or another and can all trace the bloodline back to
Charlemagne and Ramses, including the Bush family (which BTW IS related to
the British Royals). Anyway, this seemed like all very innocent
conversation and at 2:20 precisely, I had my friend Dave call my cell to
"make an excuse" for Angela! Oh my, she's stuck at work and can't get away
till later - too bad! "Sorry Jamie, Angela can't make it ....but look, why
don't we just hang out here until the game starts and we can just have some
intelligent conversation for a change. You can meet Angela when I come home
for Christmas...besides, that stuff would never work on you, but you'll be
amazed at the effect." Jamie ordered another drink and settled in, I had a
minor flash of an army of attorneys frantically writing me out of the
family will! Anyway, I did offer one example while we were killing
time...Ross' "caterpillar to a butterfly" story (I think that's on the
Masters Series, it's great). Jamie..."Wow"! I had just learned Jamie was a
very good subject, she dropped. I knew I would have to stay away from
anything sexual or overt...this was sensitive territory and Jamie was going
to have to connect her own dots. So I launched into a series of random but
connected classics like the "hot guy", "romantic hero," etc."):

This is sick! But it also got me hard. Could you post the hot guy, romantic
hero, and rodeo patterns?

GameMaster Responds:
Clifford, the Romantic Hero pattern is a spin off from Mark's material. The
Hot Guy pattern I came up with to counter the age objection. I'm 48, and
the fact is that
I'm not as hot as I used to be. It's one of my lead patterns if I'm
chatting it up with anyone
under the age of ~35.

"You know, I was reading an article about trends in the new millennium, and
they were talking about everything from market forecasts, political trends
and how relationships will be viewed as we move into a new and different
shift in our focus and awareness. And they said that one of the vanishing
trends of the 90's is the "Hot Guy" syndrome. And they went on to describe
this as a reckless attraction to BOYS that really didn't have a lot going
for them, you know, guys that really don't have a lot to say or offer
either mentally or emotionally, nothing in the way of security, but they have
enough sense to keep their mouths shut while they're standing there looking
so these guys even know how to smile? I think basically
the message was that women who were attracted to that type of
guy had a lot of issues with their self esteem and self worth
and these guys fed off that and were prone to take advantage of
these women.
Well, this article said that what women really want NOW is a man that
excites their minds first, not only their passion, but brings them an
intellectual stimulation that inflames their passions even more than they
have ever experienced. And that through this sort of man, they have come to
know far greater sexual gratification, more emotional stability and a
deeper spiritual connection than they ever dreamed possible. And the
article went
on to say that these guys were an even greater challenge, because once you
experience would do almost anything to keep this right HERE,
right in front of you because you would never want to give this up, or
share it
with anybody else.
And this is really nothing new...I mean you've seen absolutely gorgeous
women with guys that shouldn't even be allowed on the streets much less
with a woman of real quality....I mean real goofy looking guys, but somehow
they have managed to capture YOUR imagination....and that is the key to
true fulfillment. And some of these women went on to describe their sex lives
like they were porn stars....and they had no idea until they met this
man...that allowed them to just let go with all those emotions and to free
themselves totally from society's rules. And it was interesting that in
some of the
interviews they had with these women... and I mean they were drop dead
gorgeous....I remember one said that now as she looks at a guy, she looks
beyond what everyone else sees, so as this face becomes more clearly
defined in your mine, certain things begin to happen, and as she listens
to this voice, and it begins to penetrate your's then that she
becomes aware of changes that are taking place and she can feel the


Just wanted to say, for those who say "BULLSHIT" about NL9's approaches,
that I have hung out / sarged with Nightlight9 on several occasions in
several cities, and he does do approaches like this, and he does get a lot
of success, he is the real deal. He's constantly experimenting and
improving, and his persona in clubs is very engaging and positive. It's the
natural result of his years of theory and field work.


(Commenting on: "NightLight9: You don't have to say no, but keep in your
mind, your right to
say yes."):

Means "can I ask you a question.. I'm fearful of rejection but my opinion of
you is that you're dumb either" in my book. I missed the 'nt. So I am dumb.

(Commenting on: "But I think this is best but is even worse from an NLP
Keep in mind, your right to say yes, if you want later you can always say no

That's training flakes. Your last point was: Keep in mind, your right to
say yes, and if you say yes now, you always have options later.

(Commenting on: "Brenton: "You don't have to say yes, but keep in your
mind, your right to say yes, or not" [...] upturn the tonality of the 'or

What was the question? There are things stuck in my mind.

(Commenting on "Mark B. Commenting on me: She is a friend of 12 years. We
have never been romantic but we worked together for about 7 years while I
was in high school and then in University and kept in touch after. She is
not yet married but will chain herself to her current
fiancé next summer. By brownie points do you mean "the brown point" - maybe
she is into anal? Do you think this was her implicit way of telling me
something? Perhaps."):

No, I didn't mean that she would tell you she's into anal or wants to fart
you a greeting. Her fiancé is having her heart after all, I just meant to
make you notice the very special and playful ANCHOR she gave you. (I do not
know what brownie points really are but I think they equal value - at least
honor). The hard part is to play your cards RIGHT. A playful response to
your sexual request can be covering emotional disturbance or even anger
about it. Your brownie point won't buy brownies. But you've waited 12
years, now you can wait until the wicked 7th year just as easily.. I mean
fire your anchor when her husband ate half her heart out.
Brownie point - anchors temporarily unrequited sexual caring.

(Commenting on: "She is 25, 5'11", blonde, who used to model in her teenage

You mentioned cell phone and email address... ;-D


(Commenting on:  "Cliff's Comment:  It is a well known old adage that "a
man is free when he's single and a woman is free when she's married."):

In my 20's, I found that married women were very easy to turn on but single
wimmin were like chipping through granite with a plastic fork. Back in
those days, my married secretary would have me stand behind her and massage
her chest through the top of her blouse... and she offered to blow me but I
was young and chik'n. Another woman invited me to her place and would send
her husband out to Chuck E Cheese with the kids. Yow! I was dismayed, since
I wanted to find a nice girl to settle down with and not a one-nighter.
Now that I am older and wiser, I respect a marriage too much... realizing
that what goes around comes around... but maybe that is inevitable? I have
a married neighbor (a cross between Jennifer Aniston and Christina
Applegate) who has been tempting me rather mightily. Especially tough when
the singles give you liquid nitrogen all the time.


Night Crawler:
(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: Two nights ago I was out with a few
friends and we ended up at this club. One of them starts talking to this
very attractive woman and I was with him and I got introduced. He suddenly
left me with her and I was talking with her when she asks me if I am
single. I tell her yes and she tells me that she's been married for 9
years. After that, I talk to her a couple of minutes and then leave and
join my friend (in case you don't know, I am not into married women). While
with him, I tell him that she's married (which makes no difference to him)
and I told him Major Mark's famous question that he says he has asked
probably 10,000 women (who he had seen for hypnotherapy in his clinic) "If
you could have a wild, passionate
sexual affair with someone you were attracted to that you knew would not
affect your primary relationship, would you do it?" Mark says that he
hasn't had any of them say no (although I have
personally had a few say no that I asked a long time ago), and my friend
thought this was brilliant so he went over and asked her. She said she
would, answering him without a
moment's hesitation. Nothing ended up happening (she was there with her
company attending the annual Xmas party, so it isn't surprising, on
reflection, that she wouldn't want any of her
co-workers to see her acting slutty) but it got me thinking. It is a well
known old adage that "a man is free when he's single and a woman is free
when she's married." What also occurred to me, in relation to my own
experience is how men get their fulfillment from work and when that is
going well have an easier time to focus on women. It is said, however, that
how women get their fulfillment through having children and family. Put all
this together and once you have a woman who has her children and a settled
home life, does this mean that at that point she feels free and is most
likely to indulge in extra-marital activities? If we can put away the
politically correct
response that this probably immediately engenders, it seems to me to be a
natural» progression. What do you think?"):

These are just beliefs, Clifford.  Night Crawler believes that Clifford has
a 1950's model of the world. Night Crawler believes Clifford is
superimposing his past experiences onto his current
situation. Night Crawler believes this is a LOSER strategy. Night Crawler
suggests Clifford try to find an ethical NLP practitioner (LOL) to help him
resolve this conflict.

Cliff's Comment: "...superimposing (my) past experiences onto (my) current
situation."  Yeah, and isn't that normal to learn from one's experience?  I
don't follow what you are referring to - are you saying that I should be
going after married women and that not going after a woman because she is
married is a "1950's model of the world"?  Everything is "just beliefs" and
that is a fact.  What is your point?


Maximillian Hell:
(Commenting on: "Mark B: This approach virtually guarantees that you will
encounter resistance but that is the whole point for any resistance she
gives you is a way of her telling you what issues you need to address
before she sleeps with you or agrees to go out. Most men think that
resistance or objections equals rejection and that is why they avoid being
upfront in
favour of being more subtle, i.e. cocky, funny patterns, etc. To me when a
woman says "I need to get to know a guy better," she is telling me what it
will take to get her and more importantly she is not saying "fuck off,
asshole" which is rejection. Objections and raising of concerns are not
rejection. Most people, though, see any signs of resistance as rejection
which it is not."):

This is the same as one of the lessons I learned from a good book on sales:
"Closing Techniques (That Really Work!)" The author, Stephen Schiffman,
says that when you get resistance or even rejection from a prospect, too
many salesmen interpret it as a lost cause. You should instead interpret it
as an opportunity to learn what problems or questions your prospect has
with the
product you are selling. What you interpret as rejection may only be the
prospect thinking out loud, mulling the issues as it were. I am keen to try
out MarkB's technique, but I recently
learned that my school's sexual harassment edicts forbade "propositions."
I'll have to wait until break, unless I can think of some clever way around
it. Suggestions are welcome.


NightLight9: (Commenting on: Cliff's Comment: This has always been the case
for me as well. If I am not clear about my intentions, I am almost never
successful. Letting a woman know where you are coming from (and it's not
like you are telling a hot looking woman something she doesn't already
know) puts her at ease. I am sure most of us have had the experience of
being indirect and getting suspicious looks from them -- I believe that's
deserved when you aren't clear. On the other hand, I know guys who only use
the indirect approach and do very, very well. You have to use what works
for you."):

NightLight9 responds: As someone who's seen you work, you are unable to be
congruent with anything but extreme honesty. I don't know if Mark is the
same way, but this (along with lack of practice) causes the experience you
describe above. It's a fine model, but all models like this have
limitations. I can be direct and indirect when I need to. I was talking to
a sales girl once and I was dancing around sexual conversation in a flirty
way. Finally my conversation was very mammary in metaphor, and she said
"What are you thinking about right now?" I responded "Your tits" and she
loved it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Dr. Vital:
(Commenting on Joseph's reply to Mark B. "I think that no one gave them a
deep connection at the club, so they settled. Doesn't necessarily need to
be emotional- the experience needed depends upon the woman."):
Now change that last word (woman) to man, and we can end this entire
thread.  Isn't rejection itself a nominalization? You can't hold it in your
hand...  So it means something different to everyone, both in how it works,
whether it's real or not, exactly how much damage it causes to be
"rejected" etc.  etc.
Ross' "I never get rejected" line is a basic reframe, designed to take
something that people give a lot of power over their lives and suddenly
make it seem powerless. Does it matter to me if you *actually* get rejected
or not?
Fuck no!
What matters is if it's making any different in the *results* you're
getting, so that I can move into your head space and try to model you. I
need to discover how to make it so that when some chyck decides she's going
to pass up the best thing that's come her way, I can take her bad attitude
and turn it into pure rocket fuel. I could care less whether I *really* got
rejected or not. If I'm looking for definitions I'll read a dictionary.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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