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BAM my whole world was knocked up, around, and down
12/14/01 9:22:32 AM Eastern Standard Time


This is a reprint from a post I just made on the SS list about handling
More On (Moron) Flakes:
Reasons they flake:
1. They were powerfully moved and that triggers some fear in them.
2. They weren't sufficiently moved or motivated so they figure it isn't
worth their time or I didn't make it scarce/urgent enough so it became a
"maybe one day" instead of "yeah, I want to/got to meet/hangout/hook up with
this guy!" They didn't feel sufficient fascination OR that "connection" or
those "attraction butterflies".
3. They live a life of turmoil and chaos: family problems, drugs,
depression, emotional turmoil/mood swings, crime, problem on the job, some
serious ruin. These are girls you either fuck that night you meet them or
you never fuck them at all. Once you DO fuck them, you probably NEVER hear
from them again (if you are lucky!)
4. They are arrogant, narcissistic, shit-headed fuck-brains who think just
the CHANCE of being with them is sufficient for little people like you.
Emotionally 16 years old, but run around in 23, 29, even 40 year old bodies
and every range between.
5. They met someone they'd rather fuck and are busy fucking them. Hotties
get LOTS thrown their way you know.
6. Something bad happened beyond their control: accident, death, etc.
7. Something YOU did scared the crap out of them and you didn't pick up on
it. This will happen if you leave a bizarre or heavy message on the phone
machine. Don't leave messages that use their trance words before that first
real sit-down meeting. It will scare the pants off them. TRUST ME.
8. They weren't interested, they TOLD you so or TRIED to tell you, but you
weren't listening.
9. Lack of sufficient rapport
10. Burned so badly by men they are turned off to ALL men.
11. So young they live totally in the moment. Under 23 you get this alot.
They flake on EVERYONE, even their own female friends. Their female friends
do it back to them. Incapable of planning and seldom do, beyond the next 2-3
hours. (Also, girls with serious Attention Deficit Disorder will have this
issue.)  Bad planning skills, poor memories, in one ear, out the other. Trust
me, I've been there; these drive you most crazy because they REALLY mean it
when they agree to meet you!
12. Girlfriends talked them out of it. (What? You're going out with a guy
who PICKED YOU UP ON THE STREET? (or substitute: "A Jewish guy...a black
guy..a guy THAT old? ...a guy NOT in the frat! etc., etc., etc.")

I've found I've been able to mitigate ALOT, but not all of the flaking
by handling the overwhelm/safety issues, building sufficient rapport,
creating value/interest (especially after getting a number after a very brief
meeting; I find it will take about a 10-15 minute phone conversation that
doesn't get TOO heavy to get a meeting with them, face to face, that they
keep), making sure I give them SOME taste of a great body feeling so they
can get that "attraction" recognition signal for themselves. If I have
enough time I also will inoculate against the "friends" issue by pointing
out I only spend time with people who can demonstrate they have their own
minds/can think for themselves.

Categories 3,4,8,10 and 11 are pretty much impossible to prevent, other than
attempting to stay alert, aware and recognize them and just not count on
anything that doesn't happen right then, right there, or simply shit-canning
them and running like hell.  I can't yet see a way (away! ha ha ha) other than
getting away to deal with these poor chicas.

Since some of you deal with young women alot and hit entire veins of flakes,
I'd like to hear your responses to this. Anyone else, please feel free to
chime in....


Jake (  Does anyone know when some of the masters
will be coming to Australia to teach?


GameMaster:  Hey Clifford, it occurred to me after a couple of recent
postings that I probably
should lend some clarification to how I use some of these rather lengthy
I've experimented with just about every combination of ammo in the arsenal and
have learned, as most of the guys have, when it comes right down to
seduction the
rule is "the simpler the better". Duh! Where I have failed with this stuff
was when
I was so dazzled by my own bullshit I would ramble on and on throwing the
sink at these women in an attempt to overwhelm them into submission. And you
know what, they were all totally fucking overwhelmed and I never saw them
Anyway, my style is more of a hit and run, playful buildup to the main
event. I keep
copious notes on what was used, their values, trance words, etc. The last
thing you
want to hear from some chick you're trying to bang is "Yeah, I've heard
this one
before."  I sort of subscribe to the Timothy Leary foundation of "set and
setting" now
and wait for the non-verbal clues to go in for the kill. All these other
patterns are
designed to translate my own personal experience into something exciting and
intriguing to my target, and they all come into play eventually...but never
in sequence
anymore. Although I do sometimes get repeat requests for that Don Juan
thing, and
I'm finding fewer and fewer people have seen or remember the movie. And you
have to be Johnny Depp to pull that off, hell that guy's from fucking


(Commenting on "Jeff: commenting on NightLight9 kiss opener: BULLSHIT!"):

NightLight9 responds: Damn that makes me feel good :-) Where you at, dog?
If it's cool, maybe I'll come visit you and show you how it's done. If you
are ever in the Seattle area, let me know. Anyway, I'm sure lots of people
on the list will attest that they have had similar experiences at least once
(some many times), so get off your ass and test this shit out. The worst
thing that can happen is a head turn.
Anyway, I've been thinking some more about resistance to the first kiss.
Specifically, what to say when a woman pulls back and asks "Why do you want
to kiss me?" Obviously she wants to kiss you if she's asked this, she wants
to know it's both alright and that it won't end up a bad experience. I've
tried a bunch of things that don't work that well (for me at least) like:
say nothing, just try again (works once in a while) "I don't want to, I
have to." "You're so beautiful.", and "I've wanted to since I first saw you"
(works sometimes). The one that I came up with recently, that I think has
real merit (and worked the one time I've used it) is "Chemistry, you know
chemistry is like..." Maybe add "You just can't fight it."
Another line like this that I"m working on for ambiguity after you've made the
first transition, or if you sense she is very sexual. "That reminds me of a
friend of mine from chemistry class. She was so cool. You know what they
say about chemistry. You can't fight it." then change the subject or kiss
her if she's ready. I love this, because it's a bit of stream of
consciousness that creates confusion.

NightLight9 on suntanning: I love the irony of guys who are advocating
swapping multiple types of bodily fluid with chicks and then worrying so
much about
skin cancer and sun damage. Rhetorical question: do you use a dental damn
when you eat a girl out, or just take a quick pap smear?  Then again,
I do ride a motorcycle...

Cliff's Comment:
Good point, but I think we all make trade-offs in life and accept some
risks and decline others.  This (taking the sun) is an easy one to say no
to, whereas having women, in my opinion, is distinctly more important
comparatively speaking.


(Commenting on:  MB: Come on, man. You can't be serious here. 100% of all
guys I know
including me, know whether or not they would sleep with a woman as soon as
they see her. It's then up to her to turn us off by her attitude, not the
other way around. If I see Halle Berry and she turns out to have an IQ of 20
but is willing to fuck, I am not turning her down. After all, it's her body I
want not her brain when I am fucking her. It seems to me you have bought in
too much into this NLP business at the expense of all other lines of

I have on many occasions slept with a woman who I was not initially
interested in
because she had a great attitude. I have also had conversations with women
who were very
attractive on the outside but who were so fucked up in their way of
thinking that I
decided there was no way in hell I'd ever sleep with them... even once.
If you and "everyone you know" are focusing exclusively on the exterior
packaging, then
you are in for some seriously bad relationships with women.


Mark B.:
(Commenting on "Mark B. Commenting on me: She is a friend of 12 years. We
have never been romantic but we worked together for about 7 years while I
was in high school and then in University and kept in touch after. She is
not yet married but will chain herself to her current
fiancé next summer. By brownie points do you mean "the brown point" - maybe
she is into anal? Do you think this was her implicit way of telling me
something? Perhaps."):

No, I didn't mean that she would tell you she's into anal or wants to fart
you a greeting. Her fiancé is having her heart after all, I just meant to
make you notice the very special and playful ANCHOR she gave you. (I do not
know what brownie points really are but I think they equal value - at least
honor). The hard part is to play your cards RIGHT. A playful response to
your sexual request can be covering emotional disturbance or even anger
about it. Your brownie point won't buy brownies. But you've waited 12
years, now you can wait until the wicked 7th year just as easily... I mean
fire your anchor when her husband ate half her heart out.
Brownie point - anchors temporarily unrequited sexual caring.

(Commenting on: "(Commenting on: "She is 25, 5'11", blonde, who used to
model in her teenage years."):  You mentioned cell phone and email
address... ;-D)"):

MB: I'll keep this in mind and use it as a playful way of reminding her of
my suggestion. When I see her I will ask her to physically give me that
brownie point. I do have her numbers but what I did was not with serious
intent. I only wanted to see how she responds - the point being that she did
not get angry....

(Commenting on: "This is the same as one of the lessons I learned from a good
book on sales: "Closing Techniques (That Really Work!)" The author, Stephen
Schiffman, says that when you get resistance or even rejection from a
prospect, too
many salesmen interpret it as a lost cause. You should instead interpret it
as an opportunity to learn what problems or questions your prospect has
with the product you are selling. What you interpret as rejection may only
be the prospect thinking out loud, mulling the issues as it were. I am keen
to try
out MarkB's technique, but I recently learned that my school's sexual
harassment edicts forbade "propositions." I'll have to wait until break,
unless I can think of some clever way around it. Suggestions are welcome."):

MB: I would not do this where it has the potential to hurt you such as at
work or in school. To get around it, I would suggest doing it outside of the
work or school environment so that you avoid getting yourself potentially in
hot water. For me it's best to do this in places where I am not likely to
see the woman again or somewhere where she cannot find me again but I can
find her, such as a store where she works, etc. The point is to minimize the
chance of her finding you in case she is a psycho and takes great offence to
your suggestion. There seem to be a lot of guys on this list who think that
if a woman says
no then she is missing out on the best set of experiences that the guy could
give her. To me this is a form of self delusion where this line of thinking
suggests that you and her exist in a vacuum with no other variables present.
What if you could indeed give her the time of her life, the most powerful
orgasm or the best anal she's ever had. But also consider the other factors
associated with you being in her life. She many not want to subject herself
to being potentially hurt, she may not want to stop seeing her friends to
see you, maybe she is not ready for a relationship, maybe she has feelings
of guilt, she may not be attracted to you, she may already have a boyfriend.
Your value system may not be equal to hers, etc. When she rejects your
offer, you
see her as making a mistake.  Well, maybe in your mind but not in hers and as
long as in her mind the costs of being with you outweigh the benefits no
matter how great you think you are you unfortunately are not the best for
her. But you can try to make her think otherwise by discussing her
reluctance. Thinking you are the best prevents you from seeking to
improve yourself and can potentially stifle your progress by thinking "I
am the best, I do not need to improve, they are making a mistake..
....blah.. ..blah...... ..blah"


Jeff:  (Commenting on: "Sis recommends just casually introducing yourself,
making her laugh and being cocky, and acting disinterested and even aloof,
creating a little doubt in her mind that you might not really be interested
in her. Mystery's method seems somewhat similar, using negs and creating
social proof and being entertaining using a rehearsed routine. Your
strategy seems so simple I almost can't believe you're getting away with
saying the shit you're saying."):
MB: It's extremely simple. I say "Hello. My name is Mark. I could not help
but notice you. I think you are stunning." I get her response and then I
say "I wanted to let you know that you are hot, I find you attractive and
it would be great if we had a chance to get to know each other for the
possibility of having great times together and perhaps many nights filled
with passion." That's it. Then she will say "I have a boyfriend," " I am
married," "It takes time for me before I sleep with someone," "I need to be
romanced or know someone better," blah blah blah...... The basis for this
approach is that it fishes out the potential from the non potential right
away. This approach virtually guarantees that you will encounter resistance
but that is the whole point for any resistance she gives you is a way of
her telling you what issues you need to address before she sleeps with you
or agrees to go out. Most men think that resistance or objections equals
rejection and that is why they avoid being up front in favour of being more
subtle, i.e. cocky, funny patterns, etc. To me when a woman says "I need to
get to know a guy better," she is telling me what it will take to get her
and more importantly she is not saying "fuck off, asshole" which is
rejection. Objections and raising of concerns are not rejection. Most
people, though, see any signs of resistance as rejection which it is not.
This, I believe, is where most people draw the wrong conclusions and favour
being anything but up front in the hope of warming her up to you thus
avoiding any resistance later. In my way, you still have to warm her up but
you do it after you make your intent known and this is where I can be
cocky, funny, use patterns, etc. The advantage to my method is that at
least you know what you need to do and you also know whether she is open to
your initial suggestion - this is the key for you do not want to waste your
time if she is not at all interested or never would be no matter what you

I tried something like this recently. I met this HB for coffee and we had a
very nice time after grapho deck and some patterns but obviously it didn't
last because I didn't see her again after that. Then after several months I
decided to give her call and I told her I thought we connected pretty good
and I thought she was absolutely beautiful and that I wanted to be with her.
She said, "I don't know about that because I'm just starting to see someone
who I really like."
Then she told me to call her and I called a few days later and she said she
couldn't talk because she was with her borefriend so I decided to back off
for now and haven't called again.


Flying Dutchman:
I promised to describe two different beach approaches I have recorded from
a Belgian TV
programme about real boys and girls flirting in Salou (Spain). The first
approach is
pure AFC, the second is a pure PUA. They are both so funny and pathetic!
But keep in
mind that this is all reality, nothing is acted here!

First scene. Two AFC guys are laying on the beach and they have spotted two
girls a bit
further away. For your information: the guys wear big, outdated swimming
shorts and
aren’t tanned (I guess they just arrived). One guy is fat (let’s call him
guy A), the
other is very thin (guy B). I hope you remember my previous comments on
(fashionable, tanned and athletic). The girls they want to score are a HB 8
and a HB

Laying on their towels, guys A and B try to impress the girls by looking
very cool and
casual. It doesn’t appear to work, as the girls show no attention at all.
So they decide
to change tactics and to approach them right away. The guys walk over.

Guy A: “Hello, where are you from?”
HB 8,5: “We are from Belgium. We live in Leuven (city in Belgium).”
Guy A: “Oh, we are from Belgium too. We live in Hasselt (city in Belgium).”
HB's remain silent.
Guy A: “I’m Guy A, his name is Guy B.”
HB's remain silent.
Guy A: “Just a small question. How old are you?”
HB 8,5: “I’m 17.” HB 8: “I’m 18.”
Guy A: “I’m 26.”
HB's remain silent.
Guy A: “Where are you going to, tonight?”
HB 8,5: “We don’t know yet.”
Guy A: “Yeah, there are some good clubs here. I know, because I visit this
place for the
third time now. So I know now where the best clubs are located.”
HB 8 (a bit bored): “Cool.”
Guy B: “Maybe you girls like to meet us at (name of club)?” Guy A: “Yeah,
we just ask,
you know. We will be there at midnight.”
HB 8,5: “I don’t know. Maybe.”
Guy A; “Alright then. Maybe we’ll see you there. Bye.”

And the guys return to their towels while the girls are in agony and
looking at each
other laughing out loud (the guys don’t see or hear this).

The interviewer ask the girls what they think of their approach:
HB A: “Well, they are sympathetic, but they are definitely not my type.”
HB B: “Yeah, they are not attractive at all. They look cliché. And their
approach is not
good. It's way too direct.  In a different way, it can be much more exciting.”

Funny note: while you can see the girls laughing in the back (the guys
don’t see that),
the interviewer asks guy A what he thinks of his approach. Guy A replies (very
serious): “Well, it might become difficult to establish a sexual
relationship with them
while they are still so young.” (I’m not making this up, these were his
exact words.
LOL. This is SO pathetic! HAHAHA)

Things to learn from this approach:
a) Be attractive. Work on your appearance.
b) Don’t try to impress women by looking cool. It doesn’t work. You’ve got
to approach
c) Don’t approach them without an invitation (eye contact) or a reason (can
be a funny
remark or something you notice in your surrounding “Look, a shark!” Now
THIS gets
attention ;-)).
d) Don’t ask questions out of the blue.
e) Don’t give away personal information for free (names, age, etc.). Rather
be a man of
f) Never ask a girl her age. It’s very rude.
g) Don’t try to impress her by bragging about your previous vacations,
h) Don’t ask for a date. Instead, set up an opportunity. And NEVER, NEVER
say MAYBE.
It shows you’re insecure and sets yourself up for a straight rejection. Guy
A: “We
just ask, you know.” Argggh get a life!

Enough. I’m getting tired of shaking my head.

Next approach. For your information: Gus is a guy from Morocco (tanned, not
athletic, but he’s very cocky and funny and has a playful look in his
eyes). We see Gus
standing in the sea among a lot of people. A couple of yards from him is an
HB 9 who
wants to go for a swim, also standing in the sea.

Gus (a little annoyed): “Hey! You’re making me wet!” and he spatters in the
towards HB 9.
HB 9 laughs and runs back to the beach. Gus runs after her while making her
HB 8, a female friend of HB 9, is waiting on the beach for HB 9, is
watching the whole
scene and is laughing too.
Gus exclaims: “You both have to come along!” and tries to pull them towards
the sea.
HBs: “No, no.” (laughing)
Gus lifts HB 9 up and runs back with her in the sea. HB 9 is screaming like
a little
girl and HB 8 is following her girlfriend in the water.
Lots of laughter and spattering.
Gus and the HB's are returning to there towels still laughing. They are
sitting on the
towels. Gus seats himself between the HB's.
Gus seriously to HB 9: “Do you have a friend?”
HB 9: “Yes, I do.”
Gus laughing: “But she doesn’t!” while he hugs HB 8 and kisses her on the
HB's laughing too.
Gus to HB 8: “What is I love you in French?”
HB 8: “Je t’aime.”
Gus to HB 8: “Ah. Moi aussi” (I love you too), laughs and kisses her again
on the cheek.
HB 8 shakes her head and laughs too.
Gus then to HB 9: “Hey, she says she loves me.”
HB 9: “Did she?”
Gus to HB 9: “Yeah, she just told me she loves me very much.”
Gus out loud to himself: “I want to make passionate LOVE with this woman!”
And he tums
on his belly with a big smile on his face.
HB's laughing again.
Gus then to HB 8: “Does your girlfriend have a problem with that?”
HB 8: “No, not at all. She is staying at the hotel.”
Gus playfully to HB 8: “And we are going to my place?” (pause) “If you want
HB 8: “Ehm… No, first we are going to party and then we’ll see.”
Gus to HB 8: “Alright. So later we can…(pause) Ok. Fine with me. Meet me at
Kiss (name
of club) at eight o’clock. It’s right there (he points towards the street).”
HB's looking at each other and laughing.
HB 8: “Ok. We’ll meet you there.”
Gus kisses both girls on the cheeks and leaves them.

Now this is a perfect example of being cocky and funny. Notice the kino and
kisses he
uses. Compared to the first approach, I’m sure you see the differences.
Good luck with
my tips! Enough for now. I’m going to fly off. C-YA.


(Commenting on: "MB: Come on, man. You can't be serious here. 100% of all
guys I know including me, know whether or not they would sleep with a woman
as soon as they see her. It's then up to her to turn us off by her
attitude, not the other way around. If I see Halle Berry and she turns out
to have an IQ of 20 but is willing to fuck, I am not turning her down.
After all, it's her body I want not her brain when I am fucking her. It
seems to me you have bought in too much into this NLP business at the
expense of all other lines of thinking."):

I think it all comes down to the fact that people can be different. I used
to be just like you, and looks, a nice ass and a good rack were all it took.
Then, in March 1998, a phenomenal event took place which altered the course
of human history: I met a woman, she was so damned determined, who
practically seduced me (well, neither of us knows who seduced the other) -
she was absolutely, spectacularly gorgeous and attending one of the best law
schools in the country, where I was an undergrad. She was absolutely
brilliant, sophisticated, witty, worldly, sage and BAM my whole world was
knocked up, around, and down. When she induced that I was interested, her
first question was "I have an interesting birthday, it's the Ides of March,
can you tell me a little about what that means?" From there on we discussed
Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Derrida, the nature of human desire... I couldn't
believe that such an event could happen: Sure, I was attracted to her
physically, but this woman was incredible, we connected on every level, in
every way.
After that point, "just another hot chick" was NOT good enough for me. I
could care less, they're dime a dozen. The direct "Wanna fuck?" approach
does not apply. Seeing one does not guarantee her any rite of passage into
my bed chambers at all. Talking, testing, etc. THAT does.
But, this approach can be modified so that after the woman is tested, and
passes, then desires are thrown on the line. I like that, and it works for
me. But I also like to make them earn it, I like ambition. The key with
this list is to take what each of us says, even if the angle is totally
different, and apply it to our own styles. Critiquing the differences only
illustrates the difference in the user's personality, and doesn't help things.

Onto something new: My friends and I recently have been observing women's
behavior and determined that looking back at things, in our experience, the
following signals almost absolutely guaranteed sex later "GTB, guaranteed to
-when offering a phone number, she offers not only 1, but 2 or 3 along with
an email address or physical address
-when she suggests to "rent a movie"
-when she takes you to her place, under any kind of pretense (I'm only going
to show you this, that, then "you have to go") AND locks the door behind her
after you get in (some dispute and say anytime she takes you to her place)
-when she comes to your place, and takes off her shoes
-when you, not having explored the territory yet, grab her ass/tits and she
doesn't flinch at all, or pretends not to notice
-when she reacts strongly to the touch, moving or almost falling limp
especially if you haven't touched her for a prolonged period previously
-when you touch her, and you notice she feels like she's running a fever of a
103 especially in certain areas (breasts, stomach, lips (both kind))
The following signals illustrate a desire to have sex "WTB, want to bone" but
that still need further seducing, these happen usually before the approach;
they're essentially a sign of the desire to be hit on:
-when walking by, looking over at something in your direction, but not
directly at you, in order for you to look at her looking
-when walking by, a deer in the headlights look when the more you check her
out the more she keeps looking, but not directly at you, just eyes wide open.
You can check her out all you want and she doesn't look away
-when walking by, flipping her hair (obvious)
-when walking by, smiling or saying hi (obvious)
-when walking by, looking down, but in your direction, which changes as you
walk by (i.e. she keeps looking down but as you walk by her head turns toward
you), sometimes accompanied by a peak-a-boo look at the end to see if you
were looking and/or a smile
-when walking in front of you, taking something from her purse/front pockets
and placing them very slowly into her ass pocket, leaving the hand there
slowly as it withdraws
-when walking by, attempting eye contact with you (holding a glaze
extendedly), right until you notice and look back, at which point she looks
away suddenly (sometimes looking back again later)
-stretching in front of you in the gym (especially spreading eagle or bending
-constantly adjusting her clothing, or smoothing it
-the relentless, emotionless, reactionless "I want to something with you"
-stretching to display breasts, then optionally, looking afterwards to see
your response
-pinching your ass, but pretending she didn't (at bars or parties)
-intensely looking at another woman's reaction to you (that you know) and/or
making threatening body language» towards that woman
Some verbal WTBs:
-asking for a spot in the gym
-starting ANY conversation AT ALL with you, when you do not know her (even if
it's what time is it?, etc.) especially if you've seen her around a few times
but have never spoken, and it isn't a function of her job, but don't rule
that out either, and especially if there are plenty of other people she
could've talked to but didn't
-when checking her out, and you say nothing, she asks "What?"
-asking if you have a girlfriend (obvious) / relationship history
-asking what you did last weekend, or what you did in some kind of social
singles setting
-making excessive fun of you
-acting excessively offended at your jokes about her (so that you have to
"make it up" to her)
-hearing her ask her friends who you were
-when she talks about your reputation, or how she finds your reputation vs.
what she heard (even if it's insulting or flattering)
-when she comments how great you smell (almost a GTB)
-making any kind of unprompted suggestion about what you should do "to get
women" especially when that topic had never been brought up before

Can anyone think of others? Through the years I've discovered many signals
that I didn't even know were signals, and this has helped me immensely.
Hell, when I first started I didn't even know asking you if you had a
girlfriend was a sign of interest, I thought it was just a normal thing for
women to do.


(Commenting on:  "Mark B:. So there - make your needs known openly and you
will not need any techniques or books or systems."):

Mark, I know your speaking from experience and I think you're onto something,
but your conclusion doesn't follow. Being direct, making your needs known
openly, works for you, but doesn't work for a lot of people. It didn't work
for me two years ago. It works for me now. The question is why?
I'd like to float the idea that what makes being straight forward work, and
moreover what makes any approach work, including Ross', Sis', and Mystery's,
is the attitude you project.
The key component of that attitude is probably confidence and
self-assuredness. I'd even go a step further and say that it is sexual
confidence. We've all heard, and most of us understand, that most woman
want sex as much as we do. But a big difference is that looks being equal,
women do not find quality sex as easily as men. I don't have any surveys in
front of me, but I believe that most woman who are currently with men are
not entirely satisfied. It may be as simple as saying that most women wish
they had a man who could stay hard long enough to satisfy them completely,
but they don't.   If you go up to a woman and say how much you'd like to
fuck her (put it more elegantly if you like), she's not going to respond
very well if she thinks
you're a two minute man, like she's had before. If you are a two minute
man, you'll know it, and you'll probably telegraph that fact, or the fact
that you've got some kind of problem, at some level. More generally, if you
haven't made women happy in the past, you'll know it and you may have a
hard time not projecting that. On the other hand, if you can look her in
the eye thinking and believing you can fuck her like a Viking out of
legend, she's likely to respond well.

Looks are certainly a factor, but one blown way out of proportion. Consider
this: looks vary on a vast scale, from fat, short ugly, and ravaged to
tall, thin, statuesque, and pure. You Mark, tan or no tan, diet or no diet,
travel within a narrow range on that scale (I'm not even going into the
issue of different tastes). This is not to say that your tan doesn't make a
big difference. You've said it does and I have every reason to believe you.
I've seen results from improving my style of dress (the Kenneth Cole black
leather sports coat, from Sym's, works wonders for me). But I think the
reason tanning works for you is more a combination of what it does to your
attitude and what it says about you as a person (someone who gets a
tan/cares about how they look) than about the raw sex appeal it gives
you.  A natural, straight forward attitude may be all it takes to attract
highly desirable women. It may well be that a lot of us just tend to get
up or become too keenly aware of out own limitations somewhere along the
way. Just look at women. Doesn't it seem sometimes like most have severe
emotional problems?
It's my belief that Ross' genius lies in his ability to make people change
their attitudes. He makes his points in such pithy ways that people can't
help but change. Think about him describing a date as watching her "stuff
her face with calamari". Think about his suggestion that you stop thinking
about how you'll dress and start thinking about how to "capture and lead her
imagination." Think about his notion that you never know what type she'll
go for, so always go for it. Once you hear Ross express ideas like these,
you tend to think deeply and change your attitude in the process, even if
you abandon the specific ideas in the end.

I'll give my own experience as an example. I play sports that bring me in
contact with some athletic women in their early 20's. I had myself
convinced these women were unobtainable. After listening to Ross' course,
however, I lay awake at night imagining how I would seduce these women
using Ross' techniques. The fact is, that I never seduced a single woman using
Ross' techniques. However, believing in the power of his approach, my
confidence level shot through the roof and that in itself got me trying
things until I found something that works.
The specific adjustments I had to make included Sis' ideas. In particular,
I found I needed to use a little more humor. It was in me all along, I just
needed to bring it out more. I also needed to slow down a little, which I
think makes me appear less needy. These were not big adjustments, but they
made big differences. Whatever the case, I'm in a zone now and getting the
results I want.
I'm suggesting that the key thing is the attitude you project. If your
projecting the right stuff, then go for it. If going for it isn't working,
then you need to make adjustments until your projecting the right attitude.
Then you can be more straight forward. Ross, Sis, or Mystery may help you
to get the right attitude, even if you don't end up doing just what they do.

A final and controversial point I'd like to make is that way to much
garbage has been written ragging on the dating frame. Avoiding dating is
just another way of getting you away from your a mindset that's defeating
you. The best PUA I know personally, a PUA with a lifetime score way in
excess of 100, ordinarily operates within the dating frame. Dating does not
equal no sex. In my experience of dating, fucking usually begins around the
third date. I can wait that long for a good pussy, a pussy that I'm
probably going to have for as long as I want. If you need to turn over
women so fast you can't wait for the third get-together, if you can turn
women over that
fast, God love you.  While I have found it better to avoid a conventional
date, my imagination
often fails to come up with an immediate alternative. Yes, I have blown
money on a woman and felt like an ass for doing it. On the other hand, as
your antenna get better tuned, I think that happens less often. You begin
to tell the difference between one that's really interested and one that's
just willing to go with you.  I think if you've connected with a woman,
taking her out to dinner before fucking her is no worse than kissing her
before feeling her tits. It's all
kind of a natural order, which seems to make them feel comfortable.


Brother Marcus Surrealius:
(Commenting on: "Cliff: Put all this together and once you
have a woman who has her children and a settled home life, does this mean
that at that point she feels free and is most likely to indulge in
extra-marital activities? If we can put away the politically correct
response that this probably immediately engenders, it seems to me to be a
natural» progression. What do you think?"):

A great out-of-print book called The Erotic Silence of the American Wife
goes into this. It isn't so much the home and kids that make women hungry
for extracurricular fun, it is the fact that she often falls for the trap of
making a happy home and a happy child substitutes for HER OWN happiness.
The Erotic is more than just sex. It is enjoyment and pleasure in life
overall. The ambient culture says to women that in order to be a good wife,
they have to put others' enjoyment and satisfaction above their own. It
smothers them, quite simply. It's their own decision, but they aren't told
about the long-term consequences up front.
So I would have to agree that, given the cultural demands on her, it WOULD
be natural for her to progress to wanting someone outside of her marriage. I
often think that this would be the reason that women like weddings so much
more than men -- they give up more by getting married, so they want to make
sure the party is REALLY good. Have you ever been walking with a woman
along the sidewalk and suddenly happen by a bridal shop? It happened to me
once. I hadn't done any seductive groundwork on her up to that point, but
the TRANCE she went into at the sight of the wedding dress...WHOA. I kissed
her right there, no resistance.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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