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"Going for what she really wanted"

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Going for what she really wanted
12/28/01 12:14:34 PM Eastern Standard Time


(Commenting on: " I'm dumbfounded how people advise the shy to
INTELLECTUALIZE their fears. We KNOW we are safe when looking out of the
window of a tall building (well, RELATIVELY safe, but that's another story)
though we STILL feel the fear. It will NOT go away just by TALKING to the
person. It will NOT go away just my giving INTELLECTUALIZED REASONS why
it's safe."):

I have never advocated "intellectualizing" away fears. I have shown people,
MENTALLY, how to eliminate life-long phobias in under 10 minutes, and years
later, the changes have held.
No, they don't "reason" their way out of it, but phobias have an internal
mental structure that can be taken apart and rendered null using
visualization and some other things.

(Commenting on: "Well, for one thing, we know what WON'T help so we can
save the step. There is ONE way that works 100% of the time:  REPETITION."):

That is demonstrably untrue, especially in the area you are talking about.
Unreasonable fears and phobias, which are much stronger, can and are and
have been addressed successfully with hypnosis from many, many years, and
more recently, with NLP. The hypnosis work is clinically proven fact, not
You can read any number of books by Ernst Rossi, Stephen Lankton, Stephen
Gilligan. You can also get scientifically written books on clinical
applications of medical hypnosis in psychiatry, written by MD's. (Rossi was
an MD).
What you can say, Mys, is that the only thing that worked for YOU was
To assign the limits of YOUR experience to the entire world is not
reflective of other people's experiences and not open minded.

(Commenting on: "You have to get EXPERIENCE. So MUCH experience (try 48
approaches a week for 6 months - seriously) that by the end of your
TRAINING, you'll be like me: able to approach a group of people and
actually be a cool guy. Not all locked up in your own fear. So ... we now
KNOW that repetition is the answer ... and we get experience by getting out
there and TRYING. So there is no longer anything more to INTELLECTUALIZE."):

I am at complete loss to understand your INSISTING that it is either/or. You
either get experience OR use mental techniques to help you.
Surely, handling women is such a large challenge, a smart guy ought to use
what Navy Seals call "advantage stacking"; stack every advantage you can in
your favor to take down the target.
It is lunacy not to advocate using every possible tool to successfully
tackle this problem; we need mental training AND practice in the real world.
Either you are defending your limits or you are saying things you don't
believe to put forward a marketing strategy, or you have a world view that
says if it isn't painfully hard, it CAN'T BE REAL.

(Commenting on: "'s thing to ACT like you know what you are doing, but
it's no replacement for actually KNOWING. Wanna get confident flying a

You are mistaking confidence with COMPETENCE and they are NOT the same.

(Commenting on: "Reading a book and then acting brave and listening to
hypnotists TALK you into confidence is a  crock of shit. And this comes
from a guy who DOES HYPNOSIS."):

If you can't or haven't used hypnosis to cure a life-long phobia, you don't
know what you are doing or are only interested in learning hypnosis as a
parlor trick to bang chicks (which I don't knock, but don't purport to
lecture the rest of us on its limits and uses!)

(Commenting on: "A person is gonna SIT DOWN and CHANGE? Please! The WOMEN
problem is far too important to mess around with TRICKING your brain to
FEEL confident. Burn the shit out of the feeling with REPETITION. I DID!
And if I could do it, so can you. I was SUPER SHY! Seriously. "DECIDE" or
... don't you want the lifestyle BAD ENOUGH?"):

You did it the hard way. Therefore, the hard way is the ONLY way that can
work for EVERYONE! Something is wrong with your logic. You are NOT the
center of reality, nor are your limits or abilities.  One needs mental
change AND life experience. Why you insist they MUST be an either/or thing
is beyond me. You are being dishonest with yourself and
with the rest of us. USE BOTH!

(Commenting on: "Which CONFIDENCE do you think is more USEFUL? A confidence
WITHOUT competence or MY CONFIDENCE?"):
Who said it must be either or? Why not use BOTH?  Show me the law of
physics or logic that says it can't be BOTH that prove useful?  Or are you
being irrational as a believer in Astrology defending THEIR "faith"? Or a
Christian bible banger saying their is only ONE way to
God? (pussy?)

(Commenting on: "But the guys who are really good at the game aren't good
because they hypnotized the fear out of their head (sorry, it's bullshit,
gentlemen). They are good because they FOUGHT the fear. They had it in them
to keep FIGHTING because the rewards were worth it. And then looking back
they realized, they won the war because of hundreds of little daily battles."):

Oh really? I have more than few students who got VERY good at it and the
mental work helped them ENORMOUSLY along with practice in the field. BOTH.
Not either/or.

(Commenting on: "But maybe you should ask yourself a question: if it's too
good to be true, is it?"):

"True" according to WHOSE definition of what can be "true" or "possible"?
I have found that those who say "too good to be true" are those who are
deeply investing in believing life and the world HAVE to be about painful,
terrible struggles and thus are too rigid and too dumb to see brighter,
easier solutions. Or their ego says, "If ***I**** didn't find the solution,
What is "true" or "possible" depends on what technology you have at your
fingertips, Mys.

To a primitive savage, AIR CONDITIONING and INDOOR PLUMBING are "too good to
be true". So...are you going to give YOURS up?

(Commenting on: "See? She is qualifying you before you've had a chance to
convey the 5  characteristics of an alphamale. Sorry, dude, but your
methods are AFC. You really gotta see the PRO's like Craig or Sin work
their magic. You'd be blown away."):

I met Sin last week. Sin saw ME do some stuff that opened his did
your buddy Chris/Neal. Stop assuming you know everything. You don't.
Is it too good to be true that I got a girl hot and bothered in under 5
minutes asking her TWO simple questions without even putting a finger on
her? AND did the same thing to the hostess, telling her what I was doing
while I did it?
TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE? How dare YOU hold yourself out as the final
authority on "truth" sound like my Bible Banging Brothers, Alan and


(Commenting on: "Mystery: I'm saying it CONVEYS cowardness - a hottie all
alone gets some
guy approaching ... it's not a situation that is as rewarding as a hottie
in a 3set [snip] Given a choice of meeting a girl alone on the street or in
a cafe is NOT as good as meeting a girl in a 3set in a street or cafe."):

NightLight9 comments. I love the way your frame makes gives you such an
incredibly impoverished view of things. You've tuned your game to a
certain scenario and all you can see is that scenario... When all you have
is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

(Commenting on: "Mystery: The idea of asking a girl if they saw one of your
friends is OLD.
Not just old I mean. I mean, it's NORMAL. It happens a lot. It's not
it works, yeah, but ... it's just not something I'd put into my repertoire."):

You're not gettting this. It's not just asking about one of your friends. It's
the fake French accent and the familiar way you do it. It creates curiosity
and conveys humor. It's also not suggested as a standard opener in a bar at
10:00. It's for the end of night when you are looking to hook up and just
have fun. These are already going to be low percentage approaches. It
can get you to some kiss closes and from there who knows.

(Commenting on: "Mystery comments further: I don't like it. It's ... bland.
The convo
thread you initiate doesn't easily continue into an interesting topic.
Remember, there are only TWO convo threads that women respond well to:
Nice hammer... You know how many times I've gotten laid by talking about
dogs? (You can make the argument that this is a relationship (woman to
dog), but it's certainly not sex... ...I hope).

(Commenting on: "Mystery: Sex talk doesn't mean actual "wanna fuck?" talk
but rather the
"my best friend was having sex with his girlfriend when ...". and Magic
talk doesn't mean, "pick a card, any card" but rather "Do you think spells
work?" or "Do you think you
possess ESP?" A good opener so you can fall into these convo threads would
be good. The whole point of the opener is to start in on a group and convey
that you approached for the CHAT and nothing more. "Looks like the party's
over here. : ) I'm curious, have you seen the movie Poltergeist? Do you
think it was based on reality or all fiction?" You've come to entertain
yourself. Not to pickup the girl. Of course, the "you look like ...
shopping experts" is sorta like "You know Thomas?" but it's better."):

Some how I don't think "you look like shopping experts" is going to pull at
3:00AM on 6th Ave. or Buckhead, etc. (unless she's already into you). If this
works for you, let us know, and I'll give it a try. That's the difference
between me. If someone has an idea that they said worked for them, I'll try
to use it and see if I can meet or beat their results. If I can't see how
it can work, I'll ask questions until I understand what the concept is and
how it works.

(Commenting on: "Mystery: "It leads into open ended questions. I mean, once
she says,
"Thomas? Uh, no." Where do you really go from there?"):

If she says it that, generally it means you fucked up the delivery. This is
field tested as was presented as such with its known limitations (e.g.
obstacles). I have kiss closed chicks with this. I have not fuck closed
with this. I think it could lead to very quick fuck closes in what are
already generally a low percentage approach.

(Commenting on: "Mystery: Anything you say from there will reveal that you
are into them
because why else would you be there? You can't negate that with a neg right
there and then. If you are looking for Thomas, and the girl was unable to
help, you would leave and continue to look for Thomas, right?"):

No, that's not what's going on in the scene. People are out wandering around
buying Pizza and having fun and talking. You don't come and go "Oh my God
have you seen Thomas" and wander down the street like Brando looking for
"Stella!"  It's pretty clear that you aren't looking at the nuances of this
or what it's aimed at - you just decided that you don't like it. That's
fine, but
I encourage others who find themselves in late night towns where the bars
are closing and people are congregating in the streets a bit to try it (and
report back about it and other techniques you find). This isn't an end all
be all opener. There are times when the 15 minute opener is no good, that
doesn't mean it's no good in general.

(Commenting on: "Mystery: You wouldn't shift the chat to anything else that
keeps you from
finding Thomas, right? Like, "So, come here often?"):

I had no problem shifting the conversation simply by commenting on some
ongoing reality. Or they would do it for me because they were laughing and

(Commenting on: "Mystery: ANYTHING after the Thomas opener and you've
conveyed interest by STAYING there. Nope, don't like it. Of course, it's
better than shit in the pants,
right? This opener reminds me of, "Excuse me, do you have the time?" After
that, where do you go? It's like you need to have another opener right
after that. So then why have the WHAT TIME IS IT opener in the first place?
WHAT TIME IS IT is not an opener. It's a Pick Up line. And, therefore ...
so is THOMAS. Boy, can I rant."):

Great logic :-) Well, if going up to girls and saying "do you have the
time?" leads directly to kiss closes, then I guess that would be a pretty
good opener in my book and, therefore... so is THOMAS.


Dwacon (Vom feuer schmeckt es besser
(Commenting on what Ross said about "Bounced Czech"):
Let us stop, right here. One reason I am against "dates" in general (not a
hard and fast always rule, but in general) is that it triggers all of her
old ideas, limits, emotions, behaviors and beliefs wrapped around
her  previous experiences."):

It pays to consult the experts. Yes... I shudda seen that one coming...
yes, you are correct. It was also obvious that she was matrimonial
minded... given the series of questions she kept asking. Most I gave an SS
spin in responding... but she is obviously husband (or, maybe green card)
hunting. She actually said to me in the gym her goal was to "come to USA
and marry foreign man." My goal was to be Santa and slide a gift into her
stocking. Harrrr! So in retrospect... I prolly put on the deerskin coat,
the antler hat, and then wandered in the middle of the field of hunters.
BANG BANG! Good thing the bullets bounce off... but I need to get that RJ
"Matrix" thing going where I stop the bullets in mid-air. LOL!!!

(Commenting on: "So it is hard to get a "clean slate" and get new responses
from someone
that aren't contaminated with a lot of crap."):

I was trying that with the connection and time-distortion patterns... to
lead her out of this mental recursive loop she was in and get her into a
desirable state. Good practice, nonetheless...

(Commenting on: ""YOU'RE A DISTRUSTER AND ACCUSER!"... that is a good
proper response. Her frame is "Prove yourself to me! Prove you are harmless
and will not hurt me!""):

I'll file that in the memory banks for future reference. I mentally bandied
about the idea of using another approach.. like when a chyck says, "You're
messing with my mind" and the response is "That's my job..." and words to
that end. Something like, "You need to be seduced by me" but with more of a
spin... y'know?

(Commenting on: ""Do you always filter people through what you already know
without even giving them a chance to show you who they REALLY are?""):

I plan to use that tonight (if necessary, natch) with this older woman I'm
going to have drinks with. I figure she has more skeletons in her closet
than Brooklyn has roaches... so it will prolly be necessary for her to
close off her mind and begin to think things differently. ;^D


(Commenting on: "back at tonight as being the start of it all. Her reply,
"Why do you try to
sell yourself so hard?" D-OHH !!! Obviously, my SS is backfiring. Or maybe
her brain"):

Yeah, did you ever notice how all the good porn is made in the Czech
Republic these days???  : )
Similarly to you, I have this same problem when I go hard core SS. The
chicks, if they are not super hot, are wondering why such an all out
approach is being made on them. I find SS works better on the super hot
chicks, the girls who know they are 10's because at least it's better than
being an AFC and supplicating like the other guys do. But most guys don't
supplicate with a 7. And it's like there is some incongruency in a guy with
such looks or skills going after them so hard. The old adage, if it's too
good to be true, it probably is. It can come across as being too, slick,
too Clintonesque. Maybe they were sold a shiny car with a great warranty
and it turned out to be a lemon.
Ross no doubt has the answer to this. But I try just being even more covert
about it. Keeping the patterns short and sticking to embedded commands and
getting them visualizing and imagining in games or a "I heard from a
friend," or, "I saw on TV," or, "this happened at a party..." Stock
patterns can sound canned to a skeptical girl. Better to take the theme and
weave the theme into the current conversation. I think you can really "put
on" the super hot chicks, that is if you can reach them and disarm their
bitch shield. But girls without a bitch shield or who are open about sex,
like European chicks (God bless the King for kicking out the Puritans -- to
bad they ended up in America though) sometimes full-on SS can slow you
down. Kino and funny but cocky seems to work best if the chick is
intrinsically attracted to you. So what if a chick is not a ten, but is
still not attracted to you? Maybe a combination of cocky and funny with SS
only to make her put you in the place where she finds things which turn her
on and give her pleasure.


Jeff (Commenting on Kiss Openers):
Assuming that you can actually do this, are you suggesting to the list that
ANYONE could pull this off?

NightLight9 responds: Well, can anyone run a marathon? The question
is simple on first glance but deepens quickly upon inspection. Yes, anyone
could quickly kiss close a girl, given that he isn't deformed, diseased or
unhygienic, etc. I think so. Some can do it naturally, others have to spend
years learning to do so (as I have). If you're an 'unattractive' guy with an
annoying voice and boring, grating personality, it's going to be harder to
kiss close. That said, if you really want to change you ability to PU and
how you interact with women, you probably need to change a lot more about
yourself. For me, this is a continual project. My little brother on the
other hand seems to be able to just live life, be happy, and do great while
essentially being a slacker. He just doesn't give a fuck. It's the Zen of
slacking I guess.
As a note: my posting to the list isn't supposed to be bragging to start a
pissing contest. I do it to encourage, share and get feedback. I am
specifically not interested in some sort of John Randi 1 million dollar PUA
challenge. This is something I do for fun in my spare time.


Suzy Licorice:
Saturday night my bf and I went to a new night club in my home town. While
we were enjoying a drink at the bar, there standing next to us was a very
cute blonde wearing hip hugging jeans and a halter top and an interesting
metal belt, talking to a man next to her. My bf turned to her and said
"That is a cool belt! Where did you get that?" She said "Chicago." I said
"Really? Chicago?" She said "Yes, that's where I'm from." I said "Why are
you here tonight in a town 5 hours away?" She said "My bf is the DJ here
tonight. I came along with him." I said "Cool. My bf and I went to Chicago
this past summer and went to some of the night clubs there." She asked me
which ones we went to. We small talked about clubs in various cities. Then
she extended her hand and said "My name's Samantha." We introduced
ourselves and shook her hand.
My bf asked Samantha how long she had been dating her bf. She said "one
year." My bf asked her how it was going. She gave a cold response
indicating that it was so so. She asked us how long we had been dating. I
told her "Two years. I'm from here, and my bf is from a town about 100
miles from here." Then my bf said "Yeah, that's right, a long distance
relationship." She laughed. My bf then ran the long distance relationship
Samantha became very interested in us at that point. She asked us what we
did for a living. We told her and my bf added that we are only analytical
at work. She laughed and said that she is only analytical at work, and she
was an accountant. That surprised me, because she looked more like a
stripper, with the long bleach blonde hair and tight clothes. My bf asked
her what it was about accounting that she enjoys. She said that her family
was accountants. I said "Yeah, accountants often think in black and white."
She said "Yeah, that's weird, but I'm into astrology." We small talked some
more. She said she was 21.
My bf said "I'm going to read the palm of an accountant" and took her hand.
She was very intrigued and asked "You know how to read palms?" My bf said
"Yes. I learned palm reading as a way to get to know someone quickly, and
see if this is the kind of person I might like to get to know better." She
was pleasantly surprised and then said "A psychic read my palm once. I'll
see how you compare to her." My bf said "Your life line and your head line
intersect at the edge of your palm." She said "The psychic said my life
line was short, so I won't live long." My bf said "The lines on your hand
cannot possibly predict your future, that's bullshit. But they do predict
how you will respond to events in your life, because they are your lines."
She said "Yes, that makes sense!" He said "You could very well enjoy a very
long life." That really eased her. It also diffused a cruel time bomb that
the psychic had planted. (Like Major Mark says "Leave 'em better than you
found 'em.") She then became eager to know more about herself. My bf said
"Talking about psychics, you have a square palm, which means you are not
psychic. Psychics have long narrow palms. You are not psychic, but you are
intuitive. You can think about someone and then the phone will ring and it
will be them." She said "Oh yes! That is so true." He said "You have the
intuition to be a quick judge of character. You can know, right when you
meet someone, that this is a person who has a positive energy, and this is
someone you would like to get to know better." She enthusiastically agreed.
He said "Your heart line is very curved. This means you are a very
passionate person. You are not only passionate about passion, you are
passionate about the things you believe." She agreed. Then he said "But
what is interesting is, see here, the end of your heart line is forked.
That is a sign of sexual adventurism. Are you bi-sexual?" She said
"Welllllll...." and looked down with a big smile. My bf said "You don't
have to answer that." She said "Well, I partially experimented with that
once." I said "It is very natural." My bf went into Rick H's "Sexual
Nurturing" pattern. She kept looking at me for my approval, trying to see
if I was bi-sexual. She asked me if I believed that. I said "Yes I do." I
explained to her that it is a very natural thing. She said "Why is it
natural for two women but not two men?" I said "It's all about energy" and
I went into Rick H's "Ying and Yang energy" pattern. Once she got my
approval and knew that I was into it, she became very comfortable. I got
kino on her and she reciprocated. I had to keep the kino toned down because
my brother was also at the club. His presence was really cramping my style.
Then a gf of mine interrupted us. I introduced my gf to Samantha, and then
I had to excuse myself to talk to my gf for a moment. My gf kept me much
longer than I wanted. By then Samantha resumed talking to that guy next to
her that she had been talking to before. Then she left and I didn't see
where she went. My bf wanted to know Samantha's relationship with that guy
she had been talking to so he approached the guy and asked if he knew her.
The guy said "No, I'm from here. We were just talking." The guy wanted to
talk more, but we were able to lose him.
My bf and I moved to the edge of the dance floor. I danced for my bf while
he watched. This attracted Samantha back to us. She started dancing just as
I stopped to take a sip of my drink. She asked "Are you going to keep
dancing?" in a longing way. I said "I'm just getting a sip." She said "I
have drinks reserved at the bar. Would you and your bf like some?" I said
"I'm ok." My bf said to Samantha "She would enjoy it if you danced with
her." Samantha and I danced together. I wanted to get more kino but my
brother was still somewhere nearby. Samantha and I danced and held hands.
Eventually it was 2:00 a.m. and the DJ music stopped. Samantha went up to
the DJ booth to be with her bf. I said goodbye to my brother and my gf and
they left. My bf and I waited for Samantha to return. I wanted her to lose
the bf and come home alone with us.
After a few minutes, Samantha came back to us and again offered me a drink.
I asked her "Would you like to join my bf and me at my house?" She had a
sad look on her face and said "My bf was talking about other plans he was
making for us to go to his friend's house." I said "How does he feel about
your fascination with women." She said "He doesn't like it, he's very
constraining." I said "You need to dump him." She said "I know! He doesn't
like it when I am with my gf's and that I want to be with women." I said
"One thing I like about my bf is that he fully supports my interest in
women." She said "You have a great man." I said "You can have one, too."
My bf said "I believe a woman deserves to feel all the pleasure that a
woman possibly can. It's too bad you cannot be with us tonight. Because, as
you know, to be with a woman is very special. Only a woman knows how to
please a woman. Only a woman, such as yourself, knows what it feels like as
a woman.
Only a woman knows how to make another woman feel the things that only a
woman could feel." She got really flustered as if we were dangling candy in
front of her. My bf said to her while pointing to me "Do you think she's
pretty?" Samantha said "Oh yes!" Samantha became very excited and wanted to
kiss me, but she didn't want her bf to see it. My bf said "Just imagine how
exciting it would be. Just think about how incredibly sexy that would be."
Samantha became even more excited and gave me the feeling that she was torn
hard between complying with her bf and going for what she really wanted.
Because she was out of state and at the mercy of her bf, there was no way I
was going to be able to break her free from him. Had she not been out of
state, we would have closed her.
Some things I have learned in the past two years: 1. Contrary to what Rick
H says, closet lipstick bi-sexual women do NOT openly approach other women.
2. Even after I do start conversation and build rapport, I have found that
even then bi-sexual women still do NOT express their sexual attraction,
even though they feel it. 3. Where Rick H lives, out there in L.A., is a
VERY different place than where I live, out here in the Midwest. There's a
BIG difference between Hollywood actress wanna be's/strippers vs.
Midwestern 9 to 5 girls. 4. Lipstick bisexual women are submissive, thus
neither of them will initiate. I've learned to initiate, but it was
difficult because I am sexually submissive by nature.
Out here in the Midwest, it is not like Rick H says that a woman just goes
up to another woman and says "You're cute, let's go home together." That is
not reality. I've been working on this diligently for two years. Women have
consistently told me that I am very sexy and attractive, but I'm finding
that's not enough.
Rick H. or Major Mark, I would be interested in your comments.


(Commenting on Cliff's Comment: "A friend of mine recently separated from
his wife after
13 years and he's been getting laid like crazy -- he just jokes around with
everyone and is very forward with women (in a joking kind of way) and he's
been doing
incredible. I estimate he's been getting laid 4 times a week and would be
every night if not for the few other things he does some nights. And he
really has no techniques - just an attitude of having fun with everyone he

I'm really good at picking up women; The hard part is finding situations
where you're around a ton of women. I've got a wonderful girlfriend now.
But I was curious when I read the paragraph above: What is your friend
doing to expose (you know what I mean) himself to so many people? Is he
one of those guys who deliver coffee and sandwiches to corporate offices?
Or a UPS driver? (Those guys must get laid like crazy!).

Cliff's Comment:  He doesn't like parties, bars, or clubs, but he meets
secretaries when he goes on business appointments (and sometimes over the
phone), he meets women working in stores that he goes in to buy things, he
gets fixed up quite a bit because he talks to a wide variety of people who
want to help now that he is getting divorced, etc.  Basically he takes
advantage of situations we probably are in almost every day and capitalizes
on them.  And once he starts talking to these women he jokes around
(usually in a somewhat flirtatious way) and gets very forward about wanting
to go out with them.  And he's pretty clear about what he wants (he tells
them he is just coming out of a marriage and is not ready for a serious
relationship but is interested in a passionate physical
relationship).  Because he is fun, asks nicely and is clear, he seems to
get mostly positive responses.


Mark B.:
(Commenting on: "You'll be amazed. It's THEM who are shy, not you!! That's
the lesson that you have to teach shy people"):

MB: Bang on advice. Most women I have picked up in bars (or anywhere for
that matter) admit to being shy and scared. I often thought that it is not
that they think you are a geek or some sort of disfigured monster that they
do not want to talk to you but that they are nervous scared and tentative
as to what you might do or what to do themselves and what to say. Like you
suggest smiling, being fun and open is a great way to reduce their
uncertainty and shyness.

(Commenting on: "I wonder if you could share some of the techniques and
processes that you use for overcoming nervousness and shyness as these are
issues that I am having particular difficulty in resolving"):

MB: I have been trying taking a few deep breaths before I enter a
potentially nerve wracking situation. I find that with the extra oxygen my
perceptual field also increases. I am able to see more things around me
that I normally would not notice and I feel sharper and more relaxed. I
also tell myself what state I want to be in: aggressive, direct, relaxed,
confident, fun and flirty. This seems to work well.

(Commenting on: "I get her to a 9 on the 1-10 scale of making her feel
special and happy, then I do something that moves it to a 12. I'm an
unbelievable high."):

MB: Yes sir. This for me is the best way to get a woman. Make her feel so
good to be with you and around you that she cannot help but get hopelessly
hooked. Make her feel like the most attractive, sexy, desirable and fun
women in the world and then fuck her brains out like no man ever before and
she will be hooked for life. I enjoy giving oral to women and I love the
way their faces squirm when I make my way around their love nest. To me,
admiring a woman and making her feel good is the same as making love to
her. Panties on the floor follows next.
I have been doing some self reflection on my experience with women. Based
on my sister's experience I began to think of what really makes a woman
want to be with a guy. I looked back at my experience and realized that any
discussion of other women while with a new HB as well as a desire for a
relationship tends to backfire horribly at the beginning. In fact, with my
two LTRs (as well as all the women I dated successfully and slept with) the
frame was "Hey, you seem like a great girl, let's get together, go out and
have some fun." But the ones I crashed and burned with I did the opposite -
talked about other women and told my new HB I was looking for a
relationship. The question is why is this the case?
After some careful thought, I realized that women want to feel special and
exclusive while in your company and while with you. Talk of other women
tends to make them feel ignored and unwanted, a tag along. It tends to make
them feel like they have not captured your interest and you still find
yourself talking and thinking about other women while with her. Not good.
The other point was, why does talking about a relationship seem to negate
one's chances for getting her? I figured that when a guy tells her he wants
one, he is in essence ignoring her and focusing on a relationship. In other
words, he would rather have a relationship than have her and she once again
feels neglected and a second priority. She feels the next one that comes
along that offers him that, he will take the offer. And yet, again, she
does not feel special. I have also found that not discussing one keeps her
on her toes where whenever you call she jumps for joy. So one step at a time.
I have lost some great women due to the above points, never to recover
again but looking back at my two LTR's as well as all the women I banged,
the frame I set up was - focus on being and having fun, focus on the girl
exclusively, no talk of a relationship and making her feel special by going
for what I want. Even when it comes to fucking, I found that talking about
how much you like to fuck also diminishes her feelings of being special.
Better to say "I want to make love to YOU" rather than "I love to fuck."
Saying you just want to fuck makes it seem that you want to use her as a
piece of meat.  Many guys think they are appealing to her by being "open"
to sex when in fact they turn her off. I have never had a woman slap me,
run away or otherwise turn away when I told her I wanted to make love to
her. In fact, after indicating my sexual interest in her, women tend to
come close and develop a greater contact with me. To me, this seems to be
the ultimate compliment to woman as long as the focus is on YOU MAKING LOVE
TO HER, not just making love or fucking in general. Subtle but important
Case in point: my cousin is 20 and also very attractive.  She met a 27 year
old guy who drives a brand new Corvette, drops money like water, and looks
like a movie star. On their first date, all he did was talk about his ex
girlfriend and how she dumped him for another guy. He also said that he
thought that the waitress liked him and asked my cousin if she thought the
same. My cousin sat there stunned in disbelief as he carried on oblivious
to her. Eventually she said she had to go early and never spoke or saw him
again. He was left dumbfounded and confused as to what went wrong.


Gregory Rasputin:
(Commenting on: "Wanna get confident flying a plane? Reading a book and
then acting brave and listening to hypnotists TALK you into confidence is a
crock of shit. And this comes from a guy who DOES HYPNOSIS."):

Ok listen Mystery, I agree with you about the whole repetition thing
you've brought up, but that one statement about hypnosis being a crock of
shit is not only extremely uneducated, but it's also extremely closed minded.
You know how after you finish watching a Jackie-Chan movie, or some
powerful fighting movie, that really leaves a state on you, you feel like
you could go beat the living shit out of anyone you want?  Isn't that
confidence?  Were you not hypnotized? You're right, intellectualizing
about something doesn't really bring results. I remember I read that "Laws
of Comedy" book, and I didn't get any funnier, because it was all
analyzing humor. Then, I listened to Bandler (who's a funny guy actually) in
a couple of tapes, and I noticed my thinking changed, and I was just
looking at things from different angles, and funny things just came into
my head. That's why when you're around funny people, you're influenced
by them, and become funny yourself for a while even when they're not
around. Hypnosis isn't a crock of shit, I use NLP and forms of
trance/hypnosis all the time, and it's part of who I am, and trust me, I
get the
results I aim for. So, if club pick-ups with a cocky attitude and a
good sense of humor is your thing, and works for you then go ahead,
educate people as much as you can on how that can work for them, too, but
don't ever tell people that some other system doesn't work, because there
are newbies here, who will take you seriously. Imagine Milton Erikson
was convinced from the start by someone like you that hypnosis doesn't
work?  Shit, imagine Einstein was convinced from the start that science
doesn't work.

(Commenting on: "I suppose given the choices, 1) work hard learning 100's of
distinctions that apply to real world situations in an INFIELD WORKSHOP
with an
EXPERIENCED seducer by approaching tons of hot girls over three days or
2) listening to a guy "hypnotize" your fear away FOR YOU in only a couple
minutes ... I'd choose the easy way out. But maybe you should ask
yourself a question: if it's too good to be true, is it?"):

Mys, what's going on here? Are you trying to publicly say that your
workshop is better than Stephane's workshop, so people should take their
money and bring it to you instead of him? You're completely locked in your
model of the world, not allowing anything to come in. When you say hypnosis
is a crock of shit, a meta-model questions come to mind 1) to whom is it a
crock of shit? To you? To me? To Milton Erickson maybe? Just the fact that
you made such a statement shows you're hardly familiar with advanced NLP
(as an advanced NLPer would say 'it's a crock of shit to me'), and yet
you're telling people it's bs before you even know what it is. (It isn't a
stage hypnotist making people act like chickens, by the way.)  For the
record, I wanna say that NOT ONCE in the whole history of this list did you
ever say anything advanced from an NLP point of view.  Ross is always full
of goodies, Steph definitely pulls in his share, too....and now you're 'a
guy who does hypnosis' ? I've never heard anything about that. Maybe you're
a guy who once tried hypnosis, did it wrong, failed miserably and decided
it doesn't work, but from your posts I never could've guessed that you were
a guy who does hypnosis. Also, note how you are the only one on this list
who publicly says that "MY METHOD is the only one that works", and actually
puts down other people's methods. Mys, I'm 100% sure that you've taken my
posts as personal insults, even though they were definitely not intended
that way, but none-the-less do everyone who you educate a favor, and fit
this into your model of the world: "there are different ways to do
different things. People think, learn, and do things differently. People
are different. Different things work for different people."

(Commenting on: "...cause it's bold. I like it. I think I'll try this great
shit out and report back on the results. Of course, you have to do this on
a sexually mature girl."):

So you're gonna do an approach that only works on a sexually mature girl?
But if you've never approached her before how do you if she's sexually mature?

(Commenting on Formhandle:
"WTF were you trying to do here? All you're doing is re-enforcing a frame
she already might have accepted - that she might be comfortable with you as
a BF five months from now. Is that what you WANTED? Or did you want to shag
her right there in the middle of the street? ALL your actions must be
congruent with the kind of man you WANT to be. Not the kind of man you
think will appeal to what a chick is telling you on her conscious level"):

He was trying to use a time-distortion pattern, and was very incongruent
with it. The point of it wasn't to make her comfortable in 5 months, but now.

(Commenting on: "Sometimes you just have to LEAD her. You have to stay
congruent to
doing what YOU want to do, while simultaneously gauging her indirectly so
you can read her better. If you change tactics mid-stream, you'll just look
like a salesman - a BAD salesman."):

Nah, you'll end up looking like a bad salesman if you're incongruent. Most
people who start out with SS don't understand that it isn't Ross offering
them a new personality because your old one sucked, but just an enhancement
of what they already have to offer.


(Commenting on: "Stephane: (Commenting on Nathan, from private email: I
wonder if you could
share some of the techniques and processes that you use for overcoming
nervousness and shyness as these are issues that I am having particular
difficulty in resolving. I have started
learning about NLP and have read a lot about the swish pattern and the
Compulsion Blowout but I am unsure as to how to apply it. Do you think you
could post descriptive information about how these can be applied? I am
very interested in this and although I have had success it is  fairly
Shyness is easy to overcome when you realize that women really aren't
scary. That's all it is. You don't need a blowout & you don't need a swish.
I could describe or even do NLP with you to get you over your shyness, but
it's alot easier than you think."):

For the past few years I have had a phobia with eye-contact - I felt fear
when I looked into a woman's eyes and she looked into mine.
As soon as she met my eyes, I felt I had to look away - my fear was too
intense. Naturally, she would think I wasn't interested in her, when in
fact I was.  Approaching her was out of the question when I couldn't even
make eye contact.  I tried using the swish technique and it didn't work. I
tried talking myself out of it - pointing out to myself how unreasonable my
reaction was - and that didn't work.  Just now, while writing this, I got a
call from my new HB8 gf, who
said how much she enjoyed this morning's fuck session (I came twice) and
how she can still smell my cum inside her and loves the smell, and how
she's been lying on her bed thinking of me while masturbating to orgasm,
twice, and now a third time while telling me about it on the phone. One of
my nicknames for her is "porn girl". Another is "party slut". I have
others. She likes them all.  So I did manage to overcome the phobia. In a
nutshell, here is what
I did.
First, I became aware. I had a breakthrough when I started to feel how the
phobia worked. It wasn't that the chick herself was scary, it was that her
gaze triggered a fearful feeling in me. By looking away, I wasn't trying to
avoid her as such, I was trying to avoid the fearful feeling.
It wasn't her, it was me. I was doing this to myself, somehow. I wasn't
afraid of her, I was afraid of my own feelings.
Second, I found the ASF newsgroup, and associated sites, like Maniac's. I
tend to be an analytical guy (for you Myers-Briggs enthusiasts, I'm an
INTP). Here was a wealth of knowledge and expert advice on PU. All this
expertise gave me hope that one day I
could master this. I read all the ASF-related material I could find. I
immersed myself
in the ASF archives. I became aware of self-limiting beliefs I had about
myself and about chicks. And the newbie and RAFC success stories on ASF -
here were guys who
once struggled like me, and who turned it around, mastered the material,
and got laid. They were ordinary everyday people who changed their lives
around. I took inspiration from their examples. I became convinced that if
they could do it, I could do it.  I didn't have to be special, I just had
to change direction, somehow. Like they did. So, no excuses. THEY did it.
*I* can do it.
Fourth, I made an absolute fucking hard-core commitment to myself to
succeed at getting laid. I gave myself permission to backslide occasionally
and take brief breaks. I gave myself permission to take all the time I
needed to succeed - one year, two years, whatever. But I promised myself
whatever happened I would keep going.
Fifth, I started changing direction: getting fit, dressing well,
maintaining a good haircut, going out into the field, practicing approaches
and small-talk with anybody: taxi drivers, bar staff,
cops, street musicians, old folks, couples, guys, and, of course, chicks. I
started going to places I hadn't been before, to practice approaches. I
took risks. I started writing. I started performing. I took classes in
acting, psychology, creative writing, both to pick up skills and to sarge.
Sixth, I tried all sorts of techniques to prepare for success. I mentally
rehearsed approaching and laying chicks. I listened to music that got me
"up" and I'd replay that music in my head when I went into the field. I
rehearsed PUA attitudes in my posts on ASF. I went out into the field, and
forced myself to make eye contact with women I'd pass in the street. I'd
say "Hi" to them in my head.  Or I'd say "Hi" out loud. Whatever I could
manage at the time.
Seventh, I bit the bullet and started to apply light kino to chicks when I
had the chance.
Eighth, I stopped using porn and I reduced my frequency of masturbation, so
that I would give off a strong sexual vibe when sarging, and so that my
sexual hunger would help drive me forward and make more approaches.
Ok, end of nutshell. This was my way. Others will need to find their own
way, and it may be very different from mine. The things that made the
biggest differences to me were: committing
to taking risks and changing direction; getting out in the field; and
getting successes.
Mystery point about repetition and field experience is key, for me.
What is also key for me is getting successes. Every time I scored a success
- good eye contact, an approach that went smoothly, a girl offering to buy
me dinner, a number close, a
*close, a close - I felt an emotional shift inside me. Here was DIRECT,
IRREFUTABLE evidence that I could succeed at this, that I had qualities
that women liked, that the limiting beliefs and emotional responses lurking
deep in the back of my head were simply
wrong. There was no NEED for me to be "shy". There was no JUSTIFICATION
for it. It was BULLSHIT. Not only did I think that, but those successes
started to make me FEEL that.  Somehow, each small success would help undo
the tangled knots of self-defeating beliefs and behaviour that got in my way.
And this ties in with Mystery's thesis about the primacy of field
experience. The only place I'm going to get the full impact of success is
IN THE FIELD.  I respect the fact that world-class athletes and musicians
use mental rehearsal extensively. And I found it useful.But what had the
most impact on me was SUCCESS. Small then growing successes. I cannot
over-emphasize the EMOTIONAL, SUBCONSCIOUS impact that each positive
outcome, however slight, had on me.
Now, I still have a shyness problem: last night, Porn Girl asked me what
sort of porn stories I most liked to read, and I was a bit shy about
telling her. When I see her next, I'm going to "Feel the Fear and Do It
Anyway." Curse this shyness :-)

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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